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Pitching Options for 2012

Starting pitching has been the largest issue for the Cubs this season, and will surely be one of the areas they try to improve this offseason.  There are four sources the Cubs can tap to add starters: minor league system, bullpen conversions, trades and free agency.  I will look at each group to see who is available and highlight good candidates to improve the 2012 rotation.

Minor Leagues:

NIck Struck - He has done well in AAA, in an aggresive promotion.  He could be a darkhorse to make the rotation.

Jay Jackson - He's had an up and down year at AAA, but has done well lately.

Chris Carpenter - Effective in the majors, has had worse numbers in the minors. I think the Cubs see him as a reliever now.

Trey McNutt - He has had a down season due to injuries, I think he could rebound and come up in late 2012, but is not a realistic candidate to start the year with the big league team.

Casey Coleman - He looks like a long reliever/spot starter to me.

It doesn't look like any of these guys can be relied on for 2012.

Major League Bullpen:

Sean Marshall - He has been excellent as a setup man, and has had moderate success as a starter in the past.  Can the Cubs afford to move him, considering the ineffectiveness of Carlos Marmol?  I think Marshall is an excellent rotation candidate, the Cubs have many other bullpen options, and he would provide a cost controlled lefty in the rotation.  James Russell has pitched very well as a lefty in the pen, he could move up to replace Marshall.

Jeff  Samardzija - More effective in the pen this year, its probably best to leave him in the role he's been most effective at, provided the Cubs bring him back at all.

Trades:

The Braves, Twins, Rays, A's, and White Sox all have strong major league rotations and/or good pitching prospects available to replace major league starters, so they could be good trade partners.  This is the hardest group to predict, so I won't list particular trade ideas, but the following players could be available.

Jake Peavy - Injury prone and expensive, but he could benefit from a return to the weaker league.

John Danks - He has been rumored to be available, and we all know Kenny Williams is an aggresive trader.

Derek Lowe - The Braves could replace him with Mike Minor or Julio Tehran and not miss a beat.

Jair Jurgens - He's had a much better year than Lowe, but he still might be available given his inconsistent past, and the better return he would command.

Trevor Cahill/Gio Gonzalez - The A's have an anemic offense and might look to capitalize on the strong numbers these two have posted.

Rays - The Rays have Matt Moore waiting in the wings, so they could look to move Wade Davis or Jeff Niemann to shore up another part of their team.

Twins - Francisco Liriano, Scott Baker and Brian Duensing could be available this offseason.

There are certainly good pitchers out there that are available, but the Cubs have a limited pool of prospects to deal from, so I don't see a repeat of the Matt Garza trade, but rather a deal to acquire a Derek Lowe or Scott Baker who would not cost as much in prospects.

Free Agents:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/03/2012-mlb-free-agents.html

CC Sabathia - Obviously the prize of the 2012 pitching class, but I imagine the Yankees will drive his price up such that the Cubs can't pursue both CC and Pujols/Fielder.

CJ Wilson - A good pitcher, but it is fairly likely that the recently free spending Rangers resign him.

Chris Carpenter - I don't know how the Cardinals are leaning on his option, but I imagine it depends largely on the outcome of the Pujols negotiations.

Ryan Dempster - He will most likely return to the Cubs on a player option.  I'm ok with this, I think he has pitched better than his numbers suggest, and keeping him on a one year deal would be good.

Roy Oswalt -He has 16M mutual option with the Phillies, I don't know if he'll be available or not.  He is not the same pitcher he used to be, but he would certainly be an upgrade for the Cubs.

Edwin Jackson - The guy has been traded a ton, but he is a useful innings eater with flashes of something better.

Mark Buerhle - Similar to Jackson, but older.

Various other pitchers - Jon Garland, Joel Piniero, Aaron Harang, Paul Maholm, etc.  I don't know that adding a pitcher of this group would be worth the dollars improvement over giving Coleman/Jackson/Samardzija the starts.  They would certainly be a step up over the Doug Davis/Rodrigo Lopezes the Cubs have used this year.

Yu Darvish - A Japanese phenom that may be posted this offseason.  I expect the cost to be prohibitive, and the Cubs reluctant to get burned on an import again.

Summary:

The Cubs have Carlos Zambrano, Matt Garza, Randy Wells and Andrew Cashner under contract/team control for next year.  Given Zambrano's declining skills, Randy Wells inconsistency, and Cashner's unprovenness/injury risk, I think the Cubs need to add one reliable starter next year, and probably two to provide depth.

My preference would be to bring Ryan Dempster back (very likely anyway), and to sign a Roy Oswalt/Chris Carpenter type if their options are declined by their current teams.  I think Sabathia will be too expensive in both year and dollars, while Oswalt and Carpenter could hopefully be had for fewer years, even if the dollars are higher per year.  A 2 years, $15M per year contract for Oswalt/Carpenter would be good if possible.

2012 rotation: Garza, Oswalt or Carpenter, Dempster, Zambrano, Cashner or Wells.  Send the remainder of Wells/Cashner to AAA to wait for the inevitable injury.   This isn't a world beating rotation, but its a step up.  I think it makes sense to keep Z and Dempster for 2012, because their contracts expire after that season, allowing the Cubs access to the elite FA pitching crop available for 2013.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

Comment 161 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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I expect

The Twins to trade Slowey. I would be shocked if Carpenter leaves the Cards. I expect Dempster to be back with the Cubs. The interesting thing will be is what do the Cubs do at 1st and 3rd and how much money do the spend at those 2 positions. I expect the Cubs to trade a catcher in some sort of deal this offseason. I don’t expect them to get a starter stright up for a catcher unless they trade Soto

by nkniacc13 on Aug 7, 2011 11:28 AM CDT reply actions  

I was thinking along the same lines

He was mentioned as a Non-Tender candidate. You’d think a moderately decent prospect or two would be enough to pry him loose? Maybe a DJ LeMath for Slowey trade would work? 2 years of club control is still in play.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 9, 2011 7:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

No way I trade LeMahieu for Slowey...

especially when Slowey hasn’t been healthy or productive this year.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Aug 9, 2011 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

The guy was mentioned as a non-tender...

so we should trade LeMahieu for him?

Hoo wee.

by SenorGato on Aug 9, 2011 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's likely going to take a fair prospect if the market is a barren as some are thinking

LeMath isn’t really much of a prospect. Almost all of his AA value this year was from a fluky BABIP. Might as well sell high on the guy while you have the chance.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 9, 2011 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Prospect or not...

there’s no reason to just give him away when the franchise is already bereft of valuable young players. And there’s no reason to think he’s not a valuable young player until he’s had at least a full season at AAA. LeMahieu is worth far more than Slowey going into this offseason. It would be much, much different if this franchise was on the cusp of contention and Slowey was the last piece needed to improve the team.

It’s even more likely that the Twins will have to non-tender Slowey, since they have to move on to the next wave anyway. If the Cubs want to compete for his services then, they can do so without giving up anybody.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Aug 9, 2011 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

There is going to be 6-10 team looking in on Slowey

He has 2 more years of club control. If you can flip a C level 5th sting 2nd base prospect for Slowey you do it and don’t look back. 590 OPS in AAA and has terrible on base and poor defensive skills.

Good franchises keep the good prospects and deal the over hyped ones to get better. This would be a prime chance for us to act like a good franchise.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 9, 2011 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Do you know what SSS stands for?

He’s made it to AAA this year after the Cubs screwed with him in the middle of a season. That’s enough success for me, and I’m willing to let him show what he can do in the spring and next year in a full season at AAA before I want the Cubs to just give him away for nothing.

This is not the time for the Cubs to start trading any young for players that have no worth to their team, regardless of the amount club control involved. Do you realize you’re touting a pitcher who is in AAA on a team that’s only 2.5 games out of the cellar with one of the worst pitching staffs in a really weak division?

Good franchises don’t give away anybody for players other teams don’t even want. Personally, I have no interest in the Cubs acquiring a pitcher who hasn’t proven he can average even 6 IP/start above the AAA level by the time he’s 27 and has had parts of 5 seasons to do it… the last one filled with injuries.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Aug 9, 2011 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd implore you to re-look at Slowey's career

3 fairly decent AL season’s in a row before some minor arm issues this year. He is putting up fairly decent AAA numbers thus far in his rehab. Absolutely the type of guy who you should try and buy low on. Especially if we aren’t going to spend top $ on the Free Agent market.

DJ LeMath turned a hot 187 at bats of fluky .400 BABIP into an ill advised shot in Chicago. He’s been a low 700’s OPS guy or worse at every point except that little AA stretch. He’s not a good defender. He doesn’t get on base. He doesn’t have power.

He’s the epitome of a sell high prospect. If the Cubs can parlay him into 2 years of decent #4 MLB starter. They need to jump at that chance.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 9, 2011 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Yeah I'm guessing he can land more than

Kevin Slowey. I’d rather package him for someone you know…worth it.

by SenorGato on Aug 10, 2011 12:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

Non-tender = free for the taking

Why would you trade more than a pack of used chewing gum for a non-tender player????

by ClarkFan on Aug 12, 2011 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Possible non-tender

More likely someone tosses a C Level prospect to get him first. Hence my suggestion on a C level prospect we might be able to get him with.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 12, 2011 8:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ceiling isn't nearly that high IMHO

750 career ML OPS and his glove sounds like it isn’t going to stick at 2nd.

How useful is a Third Baseman who can’t slug 400 and can’t get on base over 30% at the MLB level?

Future utility guy. However one who you MIGHT be able to sell high on right now. Not saying Slowey is the target per se. Just saying LeMath is a guy you can get some value out of right now.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 13, 2011 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

You need to understand what projection means...

The kid is 6’4 and by all accounts WILL stick at 2nd. Find me a valid source that thinks he wont.

He’s also likely to add on more power late, as almost all prospects trying to fill into their body do. He has an incredible hit tool, and decent defense (that you undervalue) and will fill into a decent power ability. He’s likely a .300/.330/.450 hitter with average defense, which you will take out of 2B at league minimum.

by bdlugz on Aug 13, 2011 10:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

jackson vs buehrle

throws: jackson R, buehrle L
no. of organizations: jackson 6, buehrle 1
career ERA+: jackson 96, buehrle 122
no. of complete games: jackson 4, buehrle 27
ethnicity: jackson black, buerhle white
facial hair: jackson none, buehrle beard-like thing

they have both thrown no-hitters, but aside from that i’m having a tough time figuring out how buerhle is like jackson.

by circuitclout on Aug 7, 2011 11:53 AM CDT reply actions  

amen, that was a very bizarre comment by neifi

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Aug 7, 2011 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm just saying they are close in value for 2012

I’m not meaning they are similar over their careers, or in facial hair styles, lol.

by neifiisgreat on Aug 7, 2011 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think they are similiar in that

at this point in their careers, they can both be relied on to provide good innings, occasionally excellent outings, but are not aces. I’m not saying they are long lost brothers or anything, just that they would make a similar contribution to the team next year.

by neifiisgreat on Aug 7, 2011 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Free Agent Starters for 2013

I would be OK if the Cubs were to just tread water in regards to 2012. The FA class for 2013 looks very good. The following pitchers were taken from Cot’s. All these guys won’t make it to FA, and the ones with an asterisk have a 2013, but many of these guys will. 2013 looks like one of the best crops in a long while.

Scott Baker *
Joe Blanton
Matt Cain
Fausto Carmona *
Kevin Correia
John Danks
Jorge De La Rosa *
R.A. Dickey *
Scott Feldman *
Gavin Floyd *
Zack Greinke
Jeremy Guthrie
Cole Hamels
Dan Haren *
Tim Hudson *
Colby Lewis
Francisco Liriano
Kyle Lohse
Derek Lowe
Shaun Marcum
Daisuke Matsuzaka
Brandon McCarthy
Brett Myers *
Carl Pavano
Jake Peavy *
Anibal Sanchez
Jonathan Sanchez
Ervin Santana *
Joe Saunders
James Shields *
Jered Weaver
Jake Westbrook *
Randy Wolf *
Carlos Zambrano *

by jerry morales rules on Aug 7, 2011 11:54 AM CDT reply actions  

That free agent class looks great you could totally rebuild a pitching staff.

If the cubs can move Z now, then dempster comes off the books. You could sign Cain and Marcum to help fill out the team as long as Garza doesn’t break the bank.

by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Aug 8, 2011 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Cain and Marcum?

You go up and down that list and the goal is Cain and Marcum? I mean those guys are solid, but there’s at least two aces (Weaver and Hamels) who are on that list….and I didn’t list Greinke…

What did I get myself into when I picked this team….

by SenorGato on Aug 8, 2011 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Would Cain really come reasonably priced?

He’ll be young when he hits FA, he’s a veteran, he’s won a WS, he’s put up good ERAs, he plays for a winner so he’ll get that…Cains going to try to land an ace type contract if he hits FA…he’s got enough going on for him that it makes sense for him to do so.

Marcum might be economical, but he’s a little older than most of these guys and also been through more injury.

by SenorGato on Aug 8, 2011 3:22 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I don't think Cain would come reasonably priced.

He’ll probably want Weaver/Hamels type money (at least at the outset), so I see your point on that. Marcum won’t command that type of money. As much as I’d like the Cubs to snag two aces in 2013, I’m skeptical that they’ll have the money to do so.

FIRE JIM HENDRY. Injuries aren't the problem.

by shoemile on Aug 8, 2011 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

I just want them to snag one.

I just want that guy to be the best of who’s available…and from a distance that’s Hamels and Weaver.

I like Haren because he’s thrown up great periphs where he’s been, he’s been as durable as it gets, and at 32 he probably won’t require the years and money a Hamels/Cain/Weaver/Greinke will want.

by SenorGato on Aug 8, 2011 6:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Possible 2013 rotations in my head:

This one’s a personal favorite:

Garza
Wilson
Haren
Zambrano
Cashner/McNutt

The homegrown ace scenario:

Cashner/McNutt
Garza
FA/Trade
Zambrano
Wells

There’s too many…Anyway, I think it’s going to be really hard for this team to suck by 2013. Hell, they’d have to work hard to suck in 2012.

by SenorGato on Aug 8, 2011 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Looking at your dream rotation

I think I’d rather the Cubs skip out on Wilson and save that money (and then some) for Weaver/Hamels in 2013. I do like the idea of Haren, though.

FIRE JIM HENDRY. Injuries aren't the problem.

by shoemile on Aug 9, 2011 12:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

That worries me because...

Neither is a lock to hit the market.

Only way Wilson shouldn’t be a target is if they’re exploring other routes….a trade…a reliever to starter conversion….some gift maybe.

by SenorGato on Aug 9, 2011 2:00 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Haren's option for 2013...

is either reasonable for the Angels to pick up… or means he wouldn’t be a great signing for anyone else. It’s only $15.5m. There’s no way the Angels trade for him and let him walk unless there’s something really wrong… so cross him off your list.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Aug 10, 2011 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

My number one priority would no doubt be Hamels.

Then I’d try to get one of Grienke/Cain/A.Sanchez/Marcum

by Ryno G on Aug 8, 2011 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hamels is #1 for me then

Id look at Haren or maybe Santana.

by SenorGato on Aug 8, 2011 3:34 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I didn't even see Haren

He’d be an excellent get. Him and Hamels..wow

by Ryno G on Aug 10, 2011 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

Assuming some other pieces fall into place

We would have to be a favorite in the division with that.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry

by Hammer on Aug 10, 2011 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't expect Hamels will be there.

The Phillies have shown they will spend money. He would be my first choice but I’m not getting my hopes up.

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on Aug 9, 2011 8:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah that's my worry...

I think you were the one who originally mentioned it too. They’ll be dropping Oswalt this offseason most likely IIRC….

My non-Hamels backup is John Danks. That guy’s so f’n underrated. It’s ridiculous enough that I’m very willing to ignore (even forgive?) that he’s a White Sox player right now. Of course, a preemptive strike on Hamels not coming here would be to sign CJ Wilson….

by SenorGato on Aug 9, 2011 8:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

I like Danks.

I think the Cubs could possibly work out a trade for him this offseason.

I also think you overrate Wilson. Sure, he’s done well for two years — only two years as a starter, and he’s already 31 in November. He’ll get way more money than he’s worth.

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by Al Yellon on Aug 9, 2011 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

Saying Wilson has done well....

is kind of selling him short. He’s not a Verlander/Felix level ace, but he’s been a 4+ WAR pitcher in his two years as a starter with peripheral improvement in year 2.

Also, I don’t consider 31 to be old, particularly for a LH pitcher…Particularly for a LH pitcher who hasn’t logged 1000 big league innings at 31.

I think he’ll be very worth his contract.

by SenorGato on Aug 9, 2011 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

The fact that he has so few innings is what makes me think 31 is okay to give him a decent sized contract.

I think he’ll actually be one of the few pitchers to get under his value due to to people seeing the age and the fact his success has only been recent.

I still think you value him more than me, and possibly overvalue him as a whole, but I think we’ve got to kick the tires on him.

by bdlugz on Aug 9, 2011 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

He might be looking for a Zambrano-type deal.

Which is too much.

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by Al Yellon on Aug 9, 2011 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

And I think he might get it

This, most likely, will be his only shot at big money so he might as well strike while the iron’s hot. Assuming he signs a 5/6 year deal, he’ll be past 35 the next time he is on the open market and I can’t see him getting a big dollar deal then.

by jerry morales rules on Aug 9, 2011 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think anywhere from Burnett to Zambrano...

I also believe he’d be more worth it than both.

by SenorGato on Aug 9, 2011 2:02 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Being better than Z and Burnett

does not necessarily mean that the pitcher in question is “good”. There are pitchers that signed $30M contracts that are better than those guys.

by jerry morales rules on Aug 9, 2011 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

For $18M a year, it is very bad.

Should Wilson sign a contract like Z’s and bring performance only slightly better than Z, that would be a bad signing. However, I think we’re getting off topic here. My point was simply that just because he may outperform Z may mean that he still underperforms his contract.

Honestly, I like Wilson. I’d be happy (depending on the deal) if the Cubs were to sign him. I think their first priority should be Fielder. If they have budget left after that deal, I’d keep an open mind towards Wilson, but my gut feel is that i don’t think that it would be a good fit from a budget/contract perspective for them.

If Pujols re-signs with the Cards (which I’m very confident will happen) the likelihood that the Cubs would sign the two top FA’s would be small.

by jerry morales rules on Aug 10, 2011 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

WAAAAAAY too much

No thanks

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry

by Hammer on Aug 9, 2011 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're going to be paying a premium for FAs...

and a good FA pitcher is going to cost quite a bit. Zambrano could have gotten more on the open market if his situation played out that way….

by SenorGato on Aug 9, 2011 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Probably.

I didn’t like the deal much either I have to say. At 30 I think he’s young enough to turn it around.

by SenorGato on Aug 9, 2011 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Young enough?

Yes, I agree, but I just don’t think he has the mental makeup to ever be anything more than a #3.

by jerry morales rules on Aug 9, 2011 10:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's horrible when you're getting paid $18m and are an inconsistent headcase

way not worth it for only #3 starter production and reliability, which is why the Cubs are going to really lucky to recoup any of that value.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Aug 10, 2011 1:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

Mental may be secondary - the Cubs may have used up his arm in 2003-2007

If you showed his age/innings pitched combos to any modern pitching development type, they would shudder. 200+ innings every year from age 22 to 26, only letting up when he missed a few starts in 2008. And Z has never put up low-effort innings. That’s probably where the 96+ fastball went.

by ClarkFan on Aug 12, 2011 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

For comparison

Buehrle is going to be 33 and he he’ll have almost 2500 innings before the start of next season. I still think that Wilson will sign for more than he’s worth only because he’ll have Texas and the Yankees fighting it out.

The Cubs first priority should be Fielder. After that, they could turn towards Wilson, but I doubt they’ll have the budget for him.

by jerry morales rules on Aug 9, 2011 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yankees will be busy on CC.

Maybe an OF too…maybe.

by SenorGato on Aug 9, 2011 2:04 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

CC will cost them only a few million more per year than he's getting now

Incrementally, it will be a non-event for them.

As for OF FA’s, the only guy that is going to get anywhere near double figures per year is Beltran. I think the only way they go after an outfielder is if they don’t re-sign Swisher. That wouldn’t preclude them from adding a player via trade, but why the Yankees would give up organizational assets to cure a problem that doesn’t exist is beyond me. They need starting pitching.

by jerry morales rules on Aug 9, 2011 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

If CC opts out and they have to play chase....

then it’s going to be one hell of an event. The Yankees won’t be the only team pursuing CC if he opts out. The guy’s a top 5 pitcher, arguably on pace to go to the HOF, and he’s in the prime of his career….No way that becomes a one team show if he hits the market again.

They might keep Swisher, but I think that’s totally up in the air. I do think they’ll show interest in Beltran.

by SenorGato on Aug 9, 2011 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Yankees will be the only team pursuing CC

because every team knows that they can’t pay what the Yankees can.

If there are other teams interested at the price that CC would get, that would mean that there would also be that many teams interested in Wilson as well, but I don’t buy it. CC will be a Yankee next season. Count on it.

by jerry morales rules on Aug 9, 2011 7:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

I disagree.

If a pitcher like CC hits the market, anyone with money to spend will be interested. No way I see the Cubs not trying…

Wilson should also draw a ton of interest, as will Fielder/Pujols. Welcome to FA.

by SenorGato on Aug 9, 2011 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

They should try...

but only to drive up the price on the Yankees and increase everybody’s luxury tax share. There is 100% no way the Yankees let Sabathia sign with any other team. Unlike your fairy tale imaginations about the Cubs’ payroll, the Yankees actually have a big market team’s payroll, and there’s no number Sabathia can come up with that will allow him to leave without crippling the franchise that tries to sign him away.

Draw a ton of interest" isn’t the same as “capable of signing him”. His asking price limits teams that will actually show genuine interest in him to teams that can have $125m+ payrolls and don’t already have huge portions locked into players that give sub-par production for their cost.

Sabathia wants to get paid, as he should, but he’s not bat guano insane. He’ll entertain other offers briefly, but return to swim in Scrooge McDuck’s ginormous money bank, rack up 20-win seasons, win World Series and coast into the Hall of Fame.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Aug 9, 2011 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

CC is not out of anyone's budget if they want to spend the money.

It’s as simple as that. Even then, Cliff Lee showed that it’s not always about the most money. He’s pretty much a lock to get another 100 million to throw a baseball. He’s going to pick where he wants to go if he goes through all that bs to become a FA. This is a serious decision for him, and it’s going to be based on more than grabbing a couple extra million from the Yankees.

He would coast into the HOF if he brought a WS to Chicago.

The Cubs will spend money on at least one big FA this year IMO, and Sabathia fits the bill as well as one of the 1B.

by SenorGato on Aug 10, 2011 12:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

The Phils

have Lidge, Ibanez and likely Oswalt coming off the books. That is a lot of money. Signing Hamels has to be priority number one for them. I just can’t see them letting him walk.

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on Aug 9, 2011 10:20 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I missed one interesting item.

Lee’s deal goes up by $10 million in 2012. They could still sign Hamels by funneling some of the Oswalt money his way. Hamels makes $9 million in 2011 so add $7 million from letting Oswalt walk and the rest covers a big chunk of the Lee increase.

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on Aug 9, 2011 8:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

And they still free up the $$$$ from Ibanez and Lidge

Would not be at all surprised to see them lock up Hamels this off-season.

by ClarkFan on Aug 12, 2011 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

...and they keep coming up with guys they can trade for guys like...

Lee, Lidge, Oswalt, Halladay, Pence… and keeping young players at the big leagues like Vance Worley and Domonic Brown and John Mayberry and Ryan Madson and Antonio Bastardo…

I get really, really sad when I think of how good the Phillies (and Braves and Giants) are and just don’t know how the Cubs can compete with them unless disasters happen to them. I’m not the kind of fan who wishes that on other fans.

They do plenty of dumb things like trading away Cliff Lee in the first place and Howard’s ridiculous contract, but it just doesn’t seem to matter. Same way with the Giants. I really think the National League is locked up until 2014.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Aug 12, 2011 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Phillies are at $172M this year

And I think that most of it is long term stuff. However, if push comes to shove, I think that Hamels might be their top long-term pitcher. If they had to make some financial room, there would be a market for Halladay and Lee. They have made some tough decisions in the past that have turned out to be the right call.

I just don’t see Hamels pitching for any team other than Phil in 2013.

by jerry morales rules on Aug 9, 2011 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Long-term, yes, but they hold the option on at least $39M of that this off-season

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/philadelphia-phillies_18.html

With Oswalt, Lidge and Ibanez. Rollins is a FA, but with his decline he may not get much if any raise. Other than Lee, the big dogs don’t have any back loading, so no raises to Howard, Utley and Halladay. Pence will cost some money, but selling out every game gives them something to play with.

by ClarkFan on Aug 12, 2011 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Leave Marshall in the pen

He is a good reliever whereas he has not been a particularly good starter.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Aug 7, 2011 12:03 PM CDT reply actions  

this argument is dubious

marshall made 24 of his career 59 starts as a 23-year old who made the major league rotation with just 10 games experience at AA. he predictably struggled in his 2006 debut but showed promise in 2007 as a starter and has blossomed since moving to the bullpen full-time in 2009. some of marshall’s success may be role related but it’s also possible that he has simply gotten better as a pitcher.

by circuitclout on Aug 7, 2011 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

+1

I’d be willing to try Marshall as a SP again. I think he’s gotta way better at his craft than he was even 2-3 years ago.
 
I’m really eyeing Wilson in FA, but Carpeter/Jackson/Buerhle are somewhat interesting in their own way.

by SenorGato on Aug 7, 2011 2:53 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Dubious? Possibly, but his history supports my take unlike yours

Just because a guy has some success in a set up role, where he never faces a batter twice in the same game, he would be successful as a starter where he has to figure out ways to get a batter out 3 times a game. Marshall should stay in the bullpen

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Aug 8, 2011 7:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ships are safest in harbor...

but that’s not what ships are built for.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Aug 9, 2011 8:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yep.

I can’t watch a guy a reliever as big and talented as Marshall, who still throws from the windup, and not think this guy could start for someone somewhere. He’d probably be pretty good at it too…

by SenorGato on Aug 9, 2011 8:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

No multi year deals unless it's Wilson please.

MAYBE a two year deal to someone like Maholom, but we need to leave the door open to sign one of the big name SP after 2012.

by Dcr18 on Aug 7, 2011 12:06 PM CDT reply actions  

Marshall

Given the development of Russell at the ML level combined with Gaub & Belliveau, I think Marshall deserves/ warrants another spin in the rotation. It seems like a low-risk/ high reward way to improve rotation organically, while taking advantage of an area of depth within the system. They could even sign a veteran LHRP to be safe, at much less of a commitment than a FA SP would require.

by Mmurton on Aug 7, 2011 12:12 PM CDT via mobile reply actions  

Need a proven guy and a "project'' at minimum

don’t think you can count on Wells. Trading Soto is a possibility, I think, for pitching. They are still last in league in ERA despite recent improvement, so need to be quite active and spend some $$ to move up.A lefty like Buehrle or Wilson would be ideal. Need to sign another bullpen guy like a Dotel then maybe they could move Marshall or Shark to rotation. Losing Grabow will be a plus they’ve got Maine (??) and a few other possibilities or could sign a lefty as insurance if Russell slumps.

by QuincyCub on Aug 7, 2011 1:23 PM CDT reply actions  

Maine

I forgot about him. The circumstances scream for giving Marshall a shot. Why couldn’t he have a CJ Wilson- like conversion? His success over last couple yrs isn’t strictly due to the role change; he’s just become a better and more efficient pitcher, period. Some times the solution to your problem is right under your nose.

by Mmurton on Aug 7, 2011 1:30 PM CDT via mobile reply actions  

Marshall doesn't have Wilson's stuff.

I’d keep Marshall as a reliever, but him being a quality 4/5 starter isn’t out of the question. And I don’t think you can count for much out of Scott Maine. Russell has emerged though and I’m excited to see Beliveau, so replacing Marshall in the pen wouldn’t be a huge issue.

by Dcr18 on Aug 7, 2011 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

do you mean

arrrrrrrrrgh

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry

by Hammer on Aug 7, 2011 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

I still cannot believe

you type on that phone (I think) of yours. Would drive me nuts

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry

by Hammer on Aug 7, 2011 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think you underrate Marshall's stuff.

Wilson Doesn’t blow anyone away with velocity himself. The key for him is the cutter, a pitch I think Marshall himself is/has been developing. Wilson did throw harder out of the pen, but Marshall has a much better aptitude for locating his pitches.

by SenorGato on Aug 7, 2011 3:04 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

We'll see.

I’m more impressed by Wilson’s overall stuff, but Marshall has improved his slider the past couple years. The point being, nobody should be expecting him to be the next CJ Wilson. Most reliever to starter conversions don’t work out like Wilson, but Marshall would have a good chance to make it as a back-end guy if they go that route.

by Dcr18 on Aug 7, 2011 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Most reliever do fail...

Marshall is a really good one, and he did come up as a decent starting pitching prospect. He’s entering his prime years, so within the next couple of years is as good a time as any.

by SenorGato on Aug 7, 2011 6:19 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Agreed.

But expecting him to be on CJ Wilson’s level is over the top.

by Dcr18 on Aug 7, 2011 7:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

over the top?

no, not really at all. marshall has comparable stuff to wilson, better command, and induces far more swings and misses than wilson. there are plenty of reasons to think that marshall could make the move back to the rotation.

by circuitclout on Aug 7, 2011 8:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not doubting that he could move back to the rotation.

But are you really confident that he can convert into one of the games top lefty starters? Because if you are, than you are one of very few. Most likely he’s a good 4/5 starter, but to expect more than that is just being overly optimistic. I’m not saying it’s impossible, and nobody expected Wilson to be this good either, but it’s very unlikely Marshall would convert into a TOR pitcher. To expect it from him is being over the top and setting unfair expectations.

by Dcr18 on Aug 7, 2011 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Never know until they try.

There’s not much to lose, especially if they feel Russell can handle a larger role. Since they gave him some starts and even some high leverage relief innings, the Cubs might have that confidence moving forward.

I really think Marshall might make it worth it. He’s big, repeats his mechanics well, is efficient with his pitches, gets K’s, doesn’t walk guys, gets a ton of ground balls now, and keeps the ball in the park. He’s as good a bet to do it as any RP in baseball, and the possibility of a good LH start has to be appealing.

by SenorGato on Aug 7, 2011 10:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Again, I'm fine with him getting an opportunity to start if they feel he should.

And I think he could be effective. I always felt bad for him because I never thought he got a fair chance to stick long term as a SP and was always on a short leash. But putting CJ Wilson expectations for the guy is unfair, your talking about a guy who’s looked like a legit ace the last couple years, at the very least a great number two. I’d be happy if he could eat innings and be a solid 4 starter if he has a successful conversion to the rotation.

by Dcr18 on Aug 7, 2011 11:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not putting Wilson expectations on him...

I simply replied to your comment that his stuff isn’t with Wilson’s. His secondary stuff outpaces Wilson’s IMO, and he can use his fastball in a similar way (location, strike one). He’s gained some arm strength during his time in the bullpen observationally for me.

I find it interesting that he still pitches from the windup as a reliever…and that the Cubs let him do it after the full time conversion. And to top it off, when I think about it Marshall’s probably the most talented pitcher on the team after Garza.

If anything, I think you’re hinting that you think it’s not really worth it if he’s not as good as Wilson. I just kind of what to see what happens because he’s really come together as a pitcher the past couple of years.

by SenorGato on Aug 7, 2011 11:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

I know you aren't

but a couple posters above did make CJ Wilson comparisons. And good point on pitching from the windup, perhaps they have wanted to leave the door open for him to return to starting.

And actually, I never implied that it’s not worth it if he doesn’t become as good as Wilson. In fact, in the comment you replied to I said “I’d be happy if he could eat innings and be a solid 4 starter if he has a successful conversion to the rotation.” I’m just trying to say hoping for Wilson-type results is too optimistic.

by Dcr18 on Aug 8, 2011 12:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hoping for the results would be why the move would be done

in the first place. Right now everything about the Cubs’ future is hope…

by SenorGato on Aug 8, 2011 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hoping for Marshall to be good is reasonable.

Hoping for him to be CJ Wilson is unlikely at best.

by Dcr18 on Aug 8, 2011 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hoping for CJ Wilson...

to continue to be “CJ Wilson” is just as unlikely.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Aug 9, 2011 8:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't say "just as unlikely"

Since CJ Wilson has actually proven to be an effective starter. Marshall just has the potential to maybe prove that. I don’t know if either is likely, but I’d say that CJ Wilson is more likely to pitch like this CJ Wilson than Marshall is.

Note: I’m trying to avoid the whole “CJ Wilson will probably be CJ Wilson for another 50 years or so” joke, but failing.

by SouthernCub on Aug 10, 2011 11:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

He might pitch like it...

but he’s going to get overpaid to do it… which negates the other part of him being “CJ Wilson”. I’ll fight to the end that 2 years of starting doesn’t prove a damn thing. It certainly doesn’t prove >$15m value.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Aug 11, 2011 3:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

Two years of high end starting pitching....

in Texas for a fresh left handed arm is going to see a nice pay day in FA.

At one point do the Cubs make a move on someone? If they do, look out he’s got a flaw. If they don’t, they’re sitting pat and not doing anything….

by SenorGato on Aug 11, 2011 3:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

I never said he won't get that payday...

…but it doesn’t mean I want my team to give it to him. I wish him the best of luck in his future endeavors and proving he’s actually worth that kind of contract… somewhere else.

They can start signing players like Wilson and Fielder when they’re prepared to have a payroll competitive with the Phillies and Red Sox… or at least 3/4 of the Yankees… and have this talent you are putting all your faith in actually bear fruit.

You are putting several carts in front of a pony, when you don’t really know what kind it will grow into. I don’t like where the Cubs are in 2011 and, most likely 2012, but I’m not willing to sacrifice where they could be in 2013 so they can keep up your make-yourself-feel-better charade they’re anything like the Red Sox or Yankees. When they start acting like it, you can have all the high-end free agents you want, because then I won’t have to worry what will happen when things go wrong in free agency, which happens a lot, because they’ll have the talent and money ready to fix it and avoid the problems of the last three years… much less the last century.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Aug 11, 2011 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

way over, borderline delusional

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Aug 8, 2011 7:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

minor detail

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Aug 8, 2011 7:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

who's Beliveau?

Hockey player is now a Cubs reliever? fill me in on potential and current performance

by QuincyCub on Aug 7, 2011 2:30 PM CDT reply actions  

Lefty reliever at AA having a great year.

24 years old, has always had great K numbers, but a career best 2.5 K/9 has helped make this a breakout year for him. I guess he could be a LH setup guy on a Sean Marshall level if everything works out perfect, but could very well be a good 7th inning guy next year.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=belive001jef

by Dcr18 on Aug 7, 2011 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Think you mean 2.5 bb/9. His k rate has always been very good and this year is at 11 per nine.

His control seems to have really improved and thus makes him a very good middle relief prospect now. I hope he is a sept call up. He deserves it.

by CA Cub Fan on Aug 7, 2011 11:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

oops, correct.

Definitely meant bb/9, not k/9

by Dcr18 on Aug 8, 2011 12:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

Outbidding

the Yanks for Sabathia would be one way to get back in the good graces of Cubs fans.

DEJESUS!!!

by tomas21 on Aug 7, 2011 6:15 PM CDT reply actions  

You really think he'll opt out?

I don’t.

Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation

by Al Yellon on Aug 7, 2011 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

He will

to get even more money from the Yanks

by Dcr18 on Aug 7, 2011 8:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, sure.

But he’s not going anywhere.

Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation

by Al Yellon on Aug 7, 2011 8:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

I expect him to opt out

But I don’t expect him to leave the Yanks

by nkniacc13 on Aug 7, 2011 6:25 PM CDT reply actions  

Your summary should include Ryan Dempster as a sure thing

he has a $14m player option for 2012, which he’ll of course accept.

He’s also due a portion of $3m he deferred from his 2010 salary into the 2011 and 2012 seasons.

He’ll be back, unless they trade him. I’ll take him on a 1-year deal vs trading him for sub-par value and committing the ridiculous money anybody available in free agency will want. There’s a chance the Cubs could replace him with another undervalued asset (or even two for his price), but the risk is far from worth it.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Aug 7, 2011 11:12 PM CDT reply actions  

Agreed

He’ll most likely be back, and that’s not really a bad thing.

by neifiisgreat on Aug 8, 2011 10:48 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

It's only a good thing...

if the Cubs had a plan to pull themselves out of these doldrums and contend next season, as unlikely as it would be. The Cubs would be better off taking that $14m and spending on two pitchers with upside and hoping at least one of them replaces some of the surplus value that Dempster will lose by increasing his salary even further.

It’s a paradox. It’s highly unlikely they could improve their team by re-allocating his salary (unless they hire an uber-genius GM that’s adept at finding under-valued assets), and he’s not worth having on a team that has only a pipe dream of contending next year.

Like many of the players who will be free agents either this upcoming winter or next, the Cubs should have looked to trade him while he had as much value to other teams as possible, and then looked for the next Ryan Dempster and/or spent that money locking up their Matt Garzas to team-friendly deals. Instead… they did nothing, which is why predicting contention in 2011 gets less and less likely by the day.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Aug 9, 2011 8:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

What did other teams offer for Dempster

during this period where he had max value? When was that period?

by SenorGato on Aug 11, 2011 5:19 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I actually think it makes a whole lot of difference.

It’s not exactly a crazy idea for a team that can handle the expense to keep good pitching, even if it’s slightly overpriced. If he was an outside the organization player, maybe, but they know what they have in Dempster and he’s not exactly a bad arm to bring in 2012. This is even more true if they add a starter or two and everyone puts up ERAs and W-L records closer to their talent level.

by SenorGato on Aug 12, 2011 3:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

It's possible we can still get a return for him

He has a player option and is looking at a barren SP market this winter. Maybe he opts out and looks for a long term deal? A good front office would get the Type A arbitration picks out of Ryan leaving town.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 12, 2011 8:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

If he has a player option and declines it for more money, and then the Cubs turn around and offer him more money (which they’d have to do when they offer him arb for him to reject so that they’re smart and get the first round picks), why wouldn’t he take it? At 34 going on 35 with 7 years here, how likely is it that he’ll want to uproot himself and his family as he closes out his career? Would he want to leave the NL Central, where he’s had a ton of success? How long term a deal would he get on the open market going into his age 35 season after posting an ERA well over 4 this year?

You can’t just ignore that these are people we’re talking about…and these people have context in their lives and this context affects decisions.

by SenorGato on Aug 12, 2011 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

He'd absolutely decline arbitration

The choice for him is either

a) Exercise the option and stay with the Cubs for 1 year 14 mil
b) Decline the option and seek a long term deal

No way he’d get more than 14 million from an arbitrator. Likely he’d be looking at Ted Lilly money as a high end. He isn’t a club controlled arbitration 1,2,3 guy. So there isn’t any 80/20 rules in effect.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 12, 2011 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

True true.

This is the perfect opportunity for my peanut gallery…

by SenorGato on Aug 12, 2011 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

There's no way he gets a pay cut from an arbitrator.

That’s not how arbitration works for established major leaguers who have consistently produced regardless of their age. It would be one thing if he had fallen off significantly this season, but even the most idiotic agent could come up with numbers to show how unlucky he’s been… and even with that fact would be a worthwhile addition to almost any rotation at $14m for next season (obviously there’s more season left, but no reason to think his performance will decline). That’s why only an idiot team would risk going to arbitration with him. Any attempt to lowball him will blow up directly in their face.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Aug 12, 2011 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Actually that ISN'T how arbitration works for post 6 year service guys

The Cubs will submit an offer (probably between 8-10 million dollars)

And

Dempster and agent will submit a figure.

Then an arbitrator picks one or the other. It’s done based on a hearing and current comps put forth from both sides. There isn’t any negotiation involved. It’s either figure A or figure B.

Moot point though. No way Dempster opts out to accept arbitration. Especially because it would be a paycut and a non-fully guaranteed contract in 2012.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 12, 2011 8:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

LOL...

When did I say anything about a negotiation? I won’t even bother with the rest of your delusions until you prove you can actually read.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Aug 12, 2011 9:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wow, you are really a bitch

How about you show me a time that someone who got 14 Million or more in Arbitration, coming off a 10-8 4.70 era 1.39 Whip year?

I was merely explaining to you how the process works. The only delusion was coming from you bro. You personal attacks are completely off base and unwarranted. So I implore you to ease up on the d-bag routine.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 12, 2011 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

or what?

Do you know what FIP is? There’s a hell of a lot you don’t know, I’m sure, but you should start there. I’m also sure you don’t have any clue about players with Dempster’s service time and track record getting to arbitration, because it doesn’t happen. Teams aren’t stupid enough to go do it. I’m sure his agent will be able to successfully show how he’s worth a lot more than whatever fairy tale number you think the Cubs will offer him, which will sure be a lot higher than $8m. If you count this as his worst season, he’s still worth more than $10m in on-the-field value already, and it’s only August. I can’t say the same for you, but the Cubs for sure aren’t that stupid. Offering that much is an easy way to get on the hook for every dime Dempster’s agent asks for… which is where the “lowball” comment came into play. I’m sorry I didn’t account for your lack of maturity and ability to comprehend written word. I won’t make that mistake again, bro.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Aug 12, 2011 11:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ted Lilly signed for next year at 10.5 Mil

His numbers are just slightly better than Dempsters this year. So I figure he’d represent as close to a direct comp as you could find.

Moot point, cause it ain’t happening.

Dempster would get less than he’s going to make if he went the arbitration route. Unlucky or not, there isn’t a stat out there to show that he’s actually been “good”. So I doubt an arbitrator is going to fall for the “I’m Ryan F’n Dempster” defense in the courtroom.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 13, 2011 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

FIP...

look it up. Shows he’s actually better than he was last year. Not my fault you’re not bothering to do that and therefore are making wild assumptions to fill in what you don’t understand and shouldn’t need to be spelled out for you.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Aug 13, 2011 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

I know what FIP is

There are other stats that will also come into play. His WAR is down a full point his year. His K/H component ratios have been in a 3 year decline. He wouldn’t get more than 14 million dollars in arbitration.

MOOT POINT ANYWAY.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 13, 2011 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

OMG...

of course his WAR is off by a point. You’re comparing a cumulative stat based on a whole year vs 4.5 months. His FIP, which is better this year than last, already take into account his “declining component ratios”. Try again.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Aug 13, 2011 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

K/H? Who the hell uses that as a stat?

Also, sweet using War in August for vs a full year. You’ve been wrong this whole time more or less.

And I’ll say just to make the point stronger, I don’t think I’ve ever agreed with JLC about anything, so… anything is possible.

by bdlugz on Aug 13, 2011 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

and you complain about others being condescending?

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Aug 14, 2011 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

You've followed me around for about 2 months since I called you out for being a jackass...

For the 100th time, I’ve never said I’m perfect or wont have issues with posts people make here. You need to stop waiting for me to say anything you can jump on me over, because it’s getting old quickly. How about we pretend the other doesn’t exist here and we’ll call it a day?

Aaronb, if I came off harsher than I intended I apologize, but I think you’re looking too hard to push a point that simply doesn’t stand up to accepted stats.

by bdlugz on Aug 14, 2011 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

My only point was

If Dempster wanted to opt out after this year. The Cubs should offer arbitration and get the 2 compensation picks. I still stand by that opinion. Not sure why JLC is thinking it was some controversial stance?

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 14, 2011 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not opposed to doing this on Aramis Ramirez as well

If Ricketts truly wants out of the “big ticket” Free Agent game. Then he needs to take every advantage he can to build up the system.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 14, 2011 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

A simple review of your posts and mine

shows I ignore you the vast majority of the time (for good reason nothing worth responding to), but I could not resist zinging your hypocrisy this time.

Carry on now with your paranoia.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Aug 15, 2011 8:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

Good post, recommended.

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on Aug 8, 2011 9:04 AM CDT reply actions  

And the Cubs absolutely whiffed at the trade deadline

with an opportunity to add much needed pitching prospects to the system for a 2013 ETA.

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)

by SackMan on Aug 8, 2011 9:23 AM CDT reply actions  

What pitching prospects did they whiff on?

Who were we trading for these pitching prospects that would crack the rotation in around 1.5 years?

by bdlugz on Aug 8, 2011 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

ANY deal we could've made

for the most highly valued players that drew reported multiple inquiries, like Marshall and Marmol, would’ve likely injected our system with some much needed arms.

Right now, there are no starting pitchers in our system to generate any excitement for this team’s future. That’s a problem.

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)

by SackMan on Aug 8, 2011 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

What do people think about offering Kyle Davies a minor league deal?

And see if the Cubs can help him get the kinks out of his system?

by subtle on Aug 15, 2011 10:30 AM CDT reply actions  

Sure...

but he’s been so very, very bad. I don’t know that the Cubs have anyone in the system capable of getting the kinks out of his system. He seems like he needs some time with Dave Duncan.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Aug 15, 2011 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd rather sign Scott Kazmir.

No one has done that yet, right?

Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation

by Al Yellon on Aug 15, 2011 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think so...

and I think there’s a reason for that. But sign them both, for all I care. Couldn’t hurt… could find the next Ryan Dempster (at least in trade value, if not long-term value). No downside with how next season is looking.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Aug 15, 2011 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

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