Should Sean Marshall be starting?
by wfree0104 on Aug 8, 2011 2:20 PM CDT
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Sean Marshall has become one of the better left handed relievers in baseball, and moving him would create a hole in the bullpen, but would he be more valuable as a mid rotation starter? The last year he was a starter was 07 and in 19 starts he had a ERA bellow 4 and a WHIP of 1.23. Both are respectable numbers. He is a much more polished pitcher now, and outside of CC or CJ Wilson could be better than any of the other options. He will only be 28 next year and he will be in his fifth year. That is similar to the point in CJ Wilson's career that he made the move to rotation, and that's worked out really well for the Rangers so far.
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To me it makes perfect sense to try it out...
Hes the second best pitcher on this team after Garza. He’s a big, efficient lefty who’s it a clean bill of health his whole career, he’s entering his prime, and his stuff has sharpened in the bullpen. He’s got 3-4 pitches…still throws from the windup…there’s plenty of reason to do it and I hope they do.
by SenorGato on Aug 8, 2011 2:33 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
You tell me.
He’s brought more value to this team in 2010-2011’s 130 IP (4.1 WAR), where he’s started exactly 0 games, than he has from 2006-2009, where he started 59 games over 370 IP (3.4 WAR).
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
But he seems to have improved as a pitcher over that time.
So it’s not fair to base him off his 2006-2009 stats.
'Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up.'
I would agree that he's improved, too.
It is of note that he’s more valuable as a RP in 1/3 as many innings than a SP, though, isn’t it?
Methinks it’s not as easy to move from SP—>RP—>SP—>RP as we would like to think. That’s a lot of mental adjustments to make. I surely don’t value relievers all that high—to me they’re a dime a dozen—but he does seem to be pretty darn good at what he’s doing right now. Why mess with it?
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
I agree with the mental part.
And I actually think Marshall has grown to fall in love with the role he’s currently in. But I don’t think streching him out in spring training is going to mess up his mindset. I think the purpose of adding him to the rotation gives you alot more reward than risk.
'Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up.'
Alright, I agree with you on that.
if we want to stretch him out in ST and see how it goes, I’m good with that.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Because he's pretty much a waste on a franchise...
that’s racking up 90+ loss seasons with a really poor rotation that’s going to cost a lot of money and prayer to fix. Regardless of how good he is at what he’s doing now or how much he loves doing it, he’s not adding much value, especially if the team has no interest in trading him.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Aug 8, 2011 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions
I would have argued that Sean Marshall would have commanded the most trade interest this season.
Then again, our GM took him off the table.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Well, there's no point in caring about his trade value now...
until the Cubs ensure they won’t contend next year one way or another. He’s obviously a really valuable piece to a definite contender, and I would in no way want to move him if the team actually had important leads to protect (given that having excellent starters is the best way to have leads at all).
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Aug 8, 2011 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions
You tell me...
You think he’s not a better pitcher now than when he was thrust into a MLB rotation on a “contending” team with very little experience over A ball? He can always go back to being a reliever. As one of the best relievers in baseball, he’s barely been worth more than he was as a mediocre starter. If he can start, he should start.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Aug 8, 2011 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions
This makes sense
There’s no reason to not at least TRY him out. Like Unique stated, he’s a different and much more effective pitcher now, so his starting numbers are basically non-relevant at this point. And I understand the whole “let’s not mess with a good thing” argument, and usually i’m on the same bandwagon….but if you can honestly tell me that our starting pitching next year is going to be playoff caliber as is right now, you’re nuts. If he flops, then send him back to set-up, but most signs point to him being successful as a starter.
That's an unfair comparison
He’s a lot more experienced now than when he made those starts.
I don’t know if he’d be more effective as a starter now, but I wouldn’t use those starts he made at age 23-25 as definitive proof that he wouldn’t be a better starter now at age 28-29.
Ultimately, it’s probably moot, because I doubt the team will explore him as a starter. But that doesn’t mean it’s a bad idea to explore it.
I don't think it's entirely a fair comp, no.
But I do think it’s worth noting. Think of it in words, regardless of the actual numbers: Sean Marshall has been more valuable as a RP in a third as many logged innings than as a SP.
If we’re convinced that he’s developed and has a significantly improved repertoire in 2010-2011 than in 2006-2009, I can agree to that, I’m no pitching expert. But if this is a crapshoot “Hey, we have a good bullpen guy, throw him in the rotation and let’s see what happens”, and we mess with the guy’s psyche, that’s just unfortunate.
Finally, one point that floats around the periphery but doesn’t exactly fit with the above: I subscribe to the notion that a failed SP can be a good RP, but I’m not convinced tossing back and forth between roles is a good idea for a team or an established and successful pitcher.
Dan
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
I'm not optimistic about it.
He’d most likely be a fourth starter at best, and expecting a CJ Wilson type performance is pretty unrealistic. I’d prefer he stay in a role that he’s one of the best at.
I agree that having the same success as CJ Wilson would be a lot to expect
but it’s not out of the question either. CJ had a few good years in the bullpen, and made the move at age 29 and other than 6 starts in 05 he was solely in the pen. The area that Marshall is even better than Wilson is commanding pitches. I am not a talent scout by any means, but I live in the Rangers market and have watched Wilson pitch his entire career, and being a Cubs fan I have watched Marshall almost every time he has pitched, and before last year if I would have had to pick one to convert to a starting pitcher it would have been Marshall.
he should start in LF...but only when DeWitt sits
by TJ11 on Aug 8, 2011 3:22 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Please.
Can we have an actual serious, intelligent discussion? It’s really not that hard.
'Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up.'
by Unique on Aug 8, 2011 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions 8 recs
Are you sure that you understand how this here internet works?
It is just a screen name.
by Fat Punk Kicker on Aug 8, 2011 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I believe
the technical name is “inter-tubes”
by NorCalCubsFan on Aug 8, 2011 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions
how preposterous
I personally believe that damaged ligaments and tendons (among other abrasions) aren't the reason for the team playing so poorly relative the rest of Major League Baseball, so accordingly, James Hendry should be relieved of his highly important duties as General Manager of the Chicago Cubs franchise.
by jesus christos on Aug 8, 2011 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ask Dan how to handle this.
He’s right.
Fire Jim Hendry. Injuries aren't the problem.
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 8, 2011 7:17 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Seriously, though,
this has been a good discussion thread.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Marshall was in LF once in an MLB game
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
If you disagree with me in any way, you are wrong.
It's an interesting question....
On one hand, we have kind of been there done that. And Stuff wise, His Fastball simply doesn’t differ that much speed wise from his off speed pitches and second and third time through the lineups might be a problem.
On the other, His control has gotten much better. he won’t walk his way into early exits the way some of our starters ( Anyone not named Garza) do. he’s under control, and the pitching that might be ready to help out next year from the minors includes two hard throwing lefties. ( Jon Gaub could/should replace Grabow, and Dolis might, repeat MIGHT, be ready to throw in the pen next year.) Thus you could move Marshall into the rotation.
I guess it depends where you spend your free agent dollars, if you’re going after the BIG fish, I.E. Fielder, you can save some money by putting a cost control pitcher into the rotation.
I think the negatives kinda outweigh the positives, but I say go for it.. I think Marshall moving into the rotation and, fingers crossed, signing Adam Wainwright to rehab and comeback might be the best way to rebuild without ruining your budget and/or farm system…
"I can't be held responsible for what I personally tell my goons to do...."- C. Montgomery Burns
I agree with everyting in this comment
Marshall has value where he is and may have more value as a starter. But the decision to change his role should not be made in a vacuum. The Cubs need to assess team needs and find the best spot for Marshall. If that is solidifying the rotation and there is a competent lefty to take his 8th inning setup role in the pen, then yes – as an experiment.
Hopefully we will have a planned approach to roster organization this off season that makes best use of our assets, like Marshall.
Well, the rotation does need some fixing.
I’d wait until the FA and trade markets die down before deciding one way or the other. I’d prefer the Cubs get better starting pitchers so he can stay in the pen, though.
FIRE JIM HENDRY. Injuries aren't the problem.
While I can understand the rationale for starting him,
I’d much rather see him in the bullpen, where he’s most effective. There’s a much different mindset from being a starter than being a relief pitcher. Keep Marshall in the bullpen. Also, next year, Cashner should be back and Wells will likely be fully healthy.
Minor League Contributing Writer, Athletics Nation.
State high point count: 4/50
If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Aug 8, 2011 4:36 PM CDT reply actions
Marmol's better now than he was when he started for us
That doesn’t mean he should be a starter. This debate needs to be put to rest. Sean Marshall is a reliever.
by Mulhollandmania on Aug 8, 2011 4:46 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
you can't really compare Marshall and Marmol
Marmol is a two pitch pitcher that when he has command is a dominate shut down closer, but he would reach 100 pitches before he could even qualify for a win on a good night. Marshall has 4 pitches that he can command, and as far as velocity his fastball sits between 90 and 92 works for him because he can control it.
I’m not saying he’s Cliff Lee, but Cliff Lee doesn’t throw any harder than Marshall but because he can command his pitches he is very succesful
Usually when split as starter/ reliever
A pitcher throws harder as a reliever based on not throwing as many pitches. Marshall has been so, so much better as a reliever than a starter that I think he needs to stay there and have continued success there.
by Mulhollandmania on Aug 8, 2011 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually not a bad idea.
With the system short on starters, McNutt, and Struck the only ones to be somewhat close. Marshall might make sense.
Sean was in the rotation briefly a few years ago during the Lou era ..
.. and didn’t do too well, if I recall (I’m too lazy to go dig up the stats).
However, this young man has come a long way since then and his control and general stuff have gotten a lot better. I think he’s got the potential to rise to and sustain it this time. I think Coleman could step in and probably give his role a good shot for a while and ultimately be eased in to his role, with an eye on taking over if the seemingly fragile Cashner can’t fully come back immediately.
It looks like the 2012 rotation, barring meltdowns, injuries or miraculous acquisitions could shape out in the following way if Marshall gets stretched in. This team doesn’t have the money to go out and get any FA’s out there, and that’s what will pretty much lock things down and force the Cubs to make do.
Dempster
Zambrano
Marshall
Cashner
Garza
Personally, though, I think Marshall’s role as one of our best set up guys has worked well for his tenure here. If it ain’t broke, perhaps it don’t need to be fixed.
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we shall go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
Who says they don't have money to spend?
There’s a pretty good chunk of payroll coming off the books at the end of the season.
Just because he is a very effective reliever
does not mean he will be an effective starter. As a reliever he faces a batter only once while as a starter he will have top face hitters three times a game, a much more difficult proposition.
Leave Marshall in the pen.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 9, 2011 7:49 AM CDT reply actions 3 recs
No one is saying to do it because he's just an effective reliever.
He’s a very effective pitcher. There’s a noticeable refinement in him as a pitcher. The most obvious is that he doesn’t really throw that slow, loopy curveball he used to throw as a starter (at least not as much). After that he’s consistently gained a little something on his fastball, he’s filled out well, and all that jazz that comes with being a pitcher.
No, he is an effective reliever
and the skills that make him an effective reliever will not necessarily make him an effective starter.
Leave Marshall in the pen.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 9, 2011 8:31 AM CDT up reply actions
What if the skills that make him such an effective reliever....
do translate?
It’s not as if these skills are drastically different from what a starter needs. He misses bats, doesn’t put give away free baserunners, doesn’t give up HRs, gets groundballs, gets swings and misses….What won’t translate? Maybe they won’t translate perfectly and he won’t come right out and be a dominant starter, but the team could use an effective left handed SP capable of giving innings. As an in-house option he’s as good a choice as they’ve got….
"As an in-house option he’s as good a choice as they’ve got…."
That may be true, but it is more of an indictment of the Cubs’ farm system than it is a recommendation of Marshall.
As for your translation argument, it is a lot easier to get a batter once a game than it is three times a game.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 9, 2011 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions
well, we can debate all day what a terrible state the farm system is in, but that's not really the point
Fire Jim Hendry. Injuries aren't the problem
by Nunyabidness on Aug 9, 2011 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions
The farm system would look a lot more productive...
had Marshall turned into even a #4 starter rather than just a late-inning reliever that our idiot manager doesn’t know how to use most of the time. There’s still time though.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Aug 9, 2011 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions
and the state of the farm system wasn't my point
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 9, 2011 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Iunno about that...
Marshall is a really good pitcher and the relief to starter him has happened with more than just Wilson.
Phil Hugues spent 09 in the pen
Brandon morrow
Kelvim Escobar went back and forth
Johan Santana
Adam Wainwrght
Theres plenty more that I’m not remembering…
by SenorGato on Aug 9, 2011 2:46 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
The bottom 4 of those have had some serious arm issues
And there are just as many, if not more, guys who were good relievers who were crap starters.
by Mulhollandmania on Aug 9, 2011 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions
The last 3...
Also ranked amongst the best pitchers in the game as SP in their career. Hell, Santana as by far the best pitcher in the game….He too was scary good out of the bullpen.
Escobar?
He was solid and all, but best pitchers in the game? I don’t think he was ever thought of that highly.
by Mulhollandmania on Aug 9, 2011 10:48 PM CDT up reply actions
He had a good run.
As did Lowe…whoever pitched for Earl Weaver that came out of the pen…Humber made 2 starts in his first 24 relief appearances…Alexi Ogando is making the conversion…Dempster….
Or..
Phil Coke…. Blake Hawksworth…. Dana Eveland… Joba Chamberlain…. Phil Hughes, even. Has a 7.11 ERA this year, and has had arm trouble.
by Mulhollandmania on Aug 10, 2011 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Difference is
Marshall has been a starter all the way through the system. He has already made 59 MLB starts. He has already thrown 125+ innings as a rotational starter in the Bigs.
I wouldn’t suggest putting him in the top slot and throwing him every 5th day per se.
I do think he could be a nice #5 starter that you can skip here and there though. No reason he can’t be gentled through a 150 inning workload.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
A 5th starter is much more easily found/ developed
Than an excellent set up man.
by Mulhollandmania on Aug 10, 2011 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Hawksworth and Eveland fell apart due to injury...
as did Joba (in the bullpen for him). Hell, Hawksworth was a starter in the minors until injuries ruined him…he had a ton of upside as a starter.
Coke has a good arm with its uses, but overall he wasn’t a very good reliever. He’s also had arm troubles before IIRC.
Marshall doesn’t have the history of injury of really any of these guys…Has Marshall ever even been injured, at all? If he hasn’t, so he’s in tip top shape too….All the more reason.
The reason he has done so well
I believe, is directly correlated to how many off speed pitches he throws. He will have to rely on his fastball more as a starter, unless we want his arm to be dead in a year or two. Marshall relying on fastball screams “average” to me.
by Mulhollandmania on Aug 10, 2011 10:19 PM CDT up reply actions
See the thing about his fastball is that he's learned to...
sink it, cut it, and he’s gained some arm strength to throw the 4 seam more.
That said, after a point I do agree….The fastball is the question for him if he were to make the transition.
John Smoltz
Minor League Contributing Writer, Athletics Nation.
State high point count: 4/50
If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Aug 10, 2011 6:36 AM CDT up reply actions
Starter!
I’m definitely in the camp that says give him another shot at starting… with the caveat that it is something he really wants to do.
While Marshall wasn’t very successful as a starter in his youth, he did show flashes when his control was on. I think he has refined his control and if he has the ambition to start could be very successful. At the very least, I think he would be a league average innings eater, which is something the Cubs would probably waste $8 million a year on for someone like Jason Marquis.
Setup relievers are for more available in free agency, the trade market and the minors. I think the reluctance from people on this site to try him as a starter stems from the lack of reliable relievers on the Cubs staff. I’m not suggesting we rely on the Marcos Mateos and Justin Bergs of the world to setup. But why not try Sean.
Personally, I think Henry should have cashed him in before the deadline. If he was packaged with Byrd — they possibly could have landed us a major league ready prospect like the Reds blocked first base prospect Alonso.
Byrd+Marshall = Alonso?
On what planet would this have happened?
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James Russell could very well be the guy to fill into Marshall's role
The question I ask is How much closer to contending would this years team have been with legimate 4th and 5th starters. This years team as bad as it has been has a winning record in games when one of the top three starters pitch, and well under .500 when one of the many other pitchers who started this year in the 4th and 5th spots.
I know we could go on with what ifs…but if the Cubs had started Marshall instead of Russell when Cashner and Wells went down how much more competitive would they have been in those games?
The last year that Marshall was given a chance to start was 07. He made 19 starts and had a 7 and 8 record with a 3.98 ERA, which aren’t eye poping numbers, but if you look at his numbers he made 12 starts thru the end of July where he had 10 quality starts and a 2.79 ERA. He really wasn’t that bad in Aug. either He finished that month with an ERA over 6, but that was mostly from 2 bad outings, after that month he has been in the pen ever since.
So I kind of feel diferently than those who say he wasn’t very good as a starter. To me he was pretty good for a guy in his 2nd big league season, and his stuff is much more refined now than it was then.
For those that say he is happy with his current role I would say that’s what he is saying as a team player, but you can’t tell me he wouldn’t jump at the chance to start, and while I understand the need to have a strong bullpen, if you don’t have a lead for the bullpen to protect why have a strong bullpen.
I don't think Marshall would be Russell bad....
but I do think thrusting him into an emergency starting role early in the year would not be a healthy way to bring him back to starting. At least the organization had announced intentions to try Russell as a starter last offseason.
However I do agree that he’d jump at the chance to start again.
Do you remember if it was this spring or last that they let Marshall compete for a starting job?
he did well but was put in the pen to fill a hole there
It wasn't this spring. In hindsight I kinda wish it was....
My guess the last time that happened was MAYBE ’09, probably ’08.
It was 09
he was in the rotation in April but eventually moved to the bullpen after Randy Wells shined filling in for Z.
If I had to pick between the two....
I’d keep Marshall.
I’ve long said that Wells should be trade bait…not now obviously, when they’d be selling low. I can see why they wanted to keep him though, as the SP had the potential to be pretty good if everyone played up to their talent.
At the time Wells was pitching better than anybody on the staff.
Marshall wasn’t pitching bad, but wasn’t great at the time either and was the clear choice to move to the bullpen.
To me this team is not as far from continding as most on this blog think
If Brett Jackson can lead off and start the year in center he should excede what Fukudome did this year, move Byrd to right and give Colvin a chance to play everyday in left(if Sori can’t accept being a fourth outfielder maybe he’ll restructure the rest of his contract so he can get released and find an everyday job with another team, I think he’ll find there is no such team or he would have already been there if the Cubs were going to pick up 80 to 90% of his contract)I would bring Reed Johnson back to start a couple of times a week, and be there incase Colvin can’t produce. I think Castro is on the verge of becoming a superstar and he’ll be better in all aspects of his game. I think they should bring back Ramirez and Pena if they will sign no more than a 3 year deal. If Marshall can be sucessful as a starter that should leave the money to find another starter and bullpen help. I know the free agent market isn’t full of pitching, but there are some guys who would be good back of the rotiation starters.
So.....
Castro developing, replacing Soriano with Colvin, and bringing back Pena makes this teams contenders? Sorry, but no. Just no. There may be a scenario of moves that makes us competitors, but that plan certainly isn’t the answer.
who would you bring back instead of Pena?
I know the the popular choices are Fielder and Pujols, but if it takes more than the Cards offered this past off season to sign Pujols theres no way I’d make that deal. and while Fielder is a better option to me I’m sure Scott Boras thinks so too. The pitching has been the biggest problem this year. They went through much of this season where everytime the 4th and 5th spot in the rotation came up it seamed like they had no chance to win.
The offense and the power....
has been the issue this year. The pitching has been OK really. One of those bats has to come here.
I agree we need a big bat.
But pitching has been a huge, huge problem.
Only Houston keeps the Cubs from being last in the NL in ERA, runs allowed, OPS, and slugging (ok, ok, they are 14th, not 15th in that category). The Cubs are last in quality starts, have surrendered the most walks, and are just above the middle of the pack in Ks. The pitching, by any measure, has been awful. A couple of individual pitchers have been good, but the staff as a whole is underwhelming at best.
On offense, the Cubs are 9th in runs, 6th in slugging, 10th in OBP, and 7th in OPS. In other words… decidedly mediocre.
Again… no disagreement on needing a big bat. But the need for a big arm might be even greater.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
My biggest want this offseason is an elite power bat.
But the biggest weakness on the team is obviously SP. There are two giant black holes at the end of the rotation, and Dempster and Zambrano are more 3/4 type starters at this point in there careers.Even Garza is more of a number two. In a perfect world they keep Ramirez and add a big bat to team up with him, as well as bring in TOR starter and another proven SP, but I seriously doubt they could afford all of that.
Fielder, please
Hands down you have to go with Prince Fielder. Younger, cheaper (by a small margin), and will require less years than Pujols. He would immediately be a cornerstone of this franchise, along with Castro, Jackson, Cashner, and to a certain degree, Soto and Marmol.
Agreed that pitching is the big problem.
I’m fine with bringing back Pena if you can’t get Pujols or Fielder, but you’d have to add another big bat and bring back Ramirez as well if you expect to compete. Pena isn’t a clean up hitter on a contender.
what you describe is at best a mediocre team not a contender
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 10, 2011 7:49 AM CDT up reply actions
In addition to the comments that you've already gotten
if Sori can’t accept being a fourth outfielder maybe he’ll restructure the rest of his contract so he can get released and find an everyday job with another team,
This is pure fantasy.
Fire Jim Hendry. Injuries aren't the problem.
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 10, 2011 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions
it didn't say that it was likely...lol
but it has happened before. Andrew Jones did this with the Dodgers. I don’t mean less money either. Just over more years. If he doesn’t mind being a forth outfielder he wouldn’t be a bad one really. At this point his contract doesn’t really matter anymore. The Cubs are on the hook for all of it unless he retires, and that’s not going to happen either.
Marshall to the rotation and replace him in the pen with Cashner
Marshall has shown the ability to withstand a starters workload. He was a reasonably effective starter when he was in that role.
Cashner has never thrown 100 innings on any level.
Makes too much sense to not at least try in 2012.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
Cashner or Carpenter
Carpenters stuff out of the pen looks like will be very good when he learn how to comand it. If those two can throw strikes they could do for the Cubs what Venters and Kimbrel do for the Braves. Not to mention Shark has improved this year. A bull pen of Shark, Russell, Wood, Cashner, Carpenter, and Marmol could be very strong.
Shark is another guy...
who long term might find himself making the reliever to starter conversion. Here’s another guy who’s clearly taken major steps toward being a legitimate big league pitcher. Probably at least 2-3 more years in the pen though…
His stuff always played better in the pen
Part of his struggles was that he is a 1.5 pitch pitcher. Tough to make it as a starter with one and a half pitches. Especially when his best pitch is much more effective in shorter spurts.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
Yeah I'm seeing step forwards that maybe have him at....
2.5….he’s thrown some good breaking balls as well as the splitter this year.
In the pen
He throws a little harder as well. It’s much easier to get by in short relief with 95 and a so/so 2nd pitch.
Tough to make it as a starter at 92 and a so/so 2nd pitch.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
Which is why I promote further developing him....
Again, his breaking ball and splitter are way ahead of where they were when he first got here.
Shark and Wood...
are both free agents and will need to be re-signed. It’s unlikely Samardzija will accept a paycut from a salary he is far from worth, even with his “improvements”. If he and Wood want to accept deals similar to what they made this season on a short-term (optimally single-year) commitment, then I would welcome them back to the team… but I’m not even sure about that if the team will continue to show they don’t realize when they should be trading players.
Venters and Kimbrel should show you what it’s like to have a strong, productive farm system that can actually produce pitchers rather than paying multiple millions to hacks like John Grabow, Scott Eyre, Bobby Howry, Kevin Gregg, etc..
--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Aug 9, 2011 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Samardzija isn't a free agent
He’s under team control for next year, and the 3 following. He won’t even be arbitration eligible next year.
by Mulhollandmania on Aug 9, 2011 10:52 PM CDT up reply actions
He has a team option at over 3 million dollars next year
And as an arbitration guy he falls under the 80% rule.
Not a slam dunk that the Cubs want to spend 3 million plus on a middle reliever?
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
On a middle reliever on the way up...
that they developed? 3 million is nothing, and it could be put to worse uses. They’re not trying to let good young talent that they developed go. There’s no reason for that when there’s money to spend.
It wouldn’t be cheap to replace Shark, and it might be someone older with less upside and it’s definitely someone the organization knows less (and vice versa).
It's far from nothing as far as 4th options out of the pen are concerned...
on a team that’s likely to lose at least 85 games even if they dump $40m into free agency… and that’s a generous assessment of Samardzija. He’s not your typical “young talent that they developed”. He’s a talent that they committed ridiculous sums of money and gave a no-trade clause and he’s far from lived up to their expectations for what he’s produced. He’s nowhere near a $3m reliever… unless this team was much, much closer to contention and really needed that third RHP out of the pen… and even then they have a really good chance of filling that role in house for much cheaper and can then put that money elsewhere. Guys like Samardzija is how “money to spend” ends up having to go cheap in other areas. It’s how you end up with Kevin Gregg instead of Kerry Wood and Aaron Miles instead of Mark DeRosa. It’s how a potential title contender descends into multiple bottom 10 seasons.
It would be much different if he could have succeeded to be even mediocre as a starter, but he didn’t. The guy can’t wrap his head around a strike zone and is maddeningly inconsistent. Whether it’s through his foibles or the Cubs inadequate development plans, he’s failed to really take charge of any of the numerous options given to him over the 5 years he’s had in the organization. He’s another example of what’s wrong with Hendry’s tenure, and the franchise needs to get rid of as many of them as possible, by any means possible. Yes, the Cubs have proven they can put that money to worse uses, but hopefully a new regime can prove they know better uses for every dollar they can squeeze out of Tom Ricketts.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Aug 10, 2011 1:21 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yeah see...
The Cubs aren’t working under this ridiculous assumption that with 40+ million to spend in FA that they’re “likely to lose at least 85 games.”
What’s the standard for a 3 million dollar reliver? D’you notice that the Cubs ended up with both Kerry Wood and Mark DeRosa?
You’re going to have to pay to replace him, and the guy who you’re playing might get more to suck more. I’d rather keep the upside that the organization developed. They’d be stupid to let him go simply because some fans think he’s not worth 3 million (which is chump change, if he even makes that). That is, unless they find someone better for cheaper, which I wish them luck in.
The only thing this organization really develops is middle relievers
I’d rather see them spend 380k and give the job to Andrew Cashner. They can take that 3mil+ and use it to try and sign Jacquez, Dunston and Maples now.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
Lets see Andrew throw another pitch first
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
Ultimately I think Cashner's future is in the pen
His stuff played better there. He still hasn’t thrown 100 innings at any level. I thought the idea of making him a starter at the MLB level without having him prepare for it in the minors was stupid from the start.
Let the kid be in the pen and move along.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
by aaronb on Aug 10, 2011 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Cashner is our only legit TOR prospect right now
We have plenty of guys who project as solid- great bullpen arms. Let Cashner start.
by Mulhollandmania on Aug 10, 2011 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Not throwing the way he has this year
When healthy, you are correct, though. The way he has thrown this year has been a pretty decent let-down.
by Mulhollandmania on Aug 10, 2011 10:20 PM CDT up reply actions
He's been battling blisters and other injuries
Don’t put too much stock on what he’s done this year.
bit of a stretch
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 11, 2011 8:13 AM CDT up reply actions
Not a stretch at all...
Read some scouting reports on the guy, or better yet, go watch him pitch.
we'll see how he throws next season
but right now his potential as a TOR guy is open for debate
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 12, 2011 7:52 AM CDT up reply actions
The potential/upside is still there...
The thing that’s open for debate is whether he pulls it off.
Just to prove we can find common ground
I’m coming around on the Shark thing.
I’m still need to see more improvement to think he might be part of the solution… but I’ve changed my tune on picking up his option.
I think the Cubs should pick up the option and give him 2012 to see if he can be the RH set-up guy.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Jim Hendry disagrees
Fire Jim Hendry. Injuries aren't the problem.
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 10, 2011 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions
It's most likely less than it would
cost to replace him, and Sharks got upside and homegrown player on his side. Also, youth and athleticism too….Giving up Shark just when hes putting it together just strikes me as the kind of move the Cubs have become expected to make.
by SenorGato on Aug 10, 2011 4:30 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
They would likely replace him with someone making the league minimum.
I’m a huge Shark fan, but 3 million is way to much for the fourth option out of the bullpen.
Who's the guy?
Keep in mind that he has to be able to give at least what Shark did, otherwise it’s pointless and they just downgraded the roster.
The Cubs are not looking to downgrade the roster.
Someone like Dolis or Carpenter.
We have lots of good young arms coming up. Not to mention that money can be used elsewhere to upgrade the roster.
Someone like or one of those guys?
Why not use them to replace someone who sucks?
I'd rather spend that 3 million on
Jacquez, Maples, Dunston, Baez and Vogelbach.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
Ignoring that one has absolutely nothing to do with the other...
I’d like to retain young, productive, MLB talent.
by SenorGato on Aug 11, 2011 12:29 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
There is only a certain amount of money in the budget
Doubtful that those kids will sign for “personal Tom Ricketts IOU’s”.
I’d rather divert the money to sign the hard to sign kids.
If Samjay wants to be non-tendered and resigned for 500K. I’d welcome him back with open arms.
If he want’s to be paid Marlon Byrd money. He needs to seek it elsewhere.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
Yours not even making sensible arguments.
The guy is not going to pitch for 500K next year, for anyone. He’s also not going to make Byrd money.
Also, you don’t set the budget, and the Sharks 2012 salary does not come into signing this years draft picks.
by SenorGato on Aug 11, 2011 5:13 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I thought relievers were a strength of the organization?
Gotta be some league minimum guy they can bring up.
FIRE JIM HENDRY. Injuries aren't the problem.
the marcos mateo experience
I personally believe that damaged ligaments and tendons (among other abrasions) aren't the reason for the team playing so poorly relative the rest of Major League Baseball, so accordingly, James Hendry should be relieved of his highly important duties as General Manager of the Chicago Cubs franchise.
by jesus christos on Aug 10, 2011 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Why wouldn't they look to replace Grabow, Ortiz, and Lopez first?
If relievers are abound in the organization, then why wouldn’t you use them to make the team better where the young guys can realistically do it? Why would they just hand away a good young MLB pitcher? What logical, non-monetary reason is there for that?
See and the thing about you is that I think you know this, and that was said for the rise.
Well, Lopez has been used as a starter.
So that’s a different story. If Cashner can come back and start, then don’t move RoLo to the pen, just dump the dude.
I think you’re underestimating how much of a factor the budget plays into the roster. You can’t just ask what non-monetary reason there is for a move, because that almost always plays a factor. I know you don’t like Gorzelanny, but if dumping him was for budgetary reasons (saving 2 million), then spending more than that on a fourth reliever doesn’t seem wise, especially if they’re going to be trying to sign guys like Wilson and Fielder. These things add up.
FIRE JIM HENDRY. Injuries aren't the problem.
I think you’re underestimating how much of a factor the budget plays into the roster.
I think you overestimate it.
Gorzellany was dumped for more than monetary reasons. The team had two lefties they like for the bullpen in Marshall and Russell, and Cashner the team’s top pitching prospect was taking the 5th spot. The freed up money was a bonus. Also, this is a clearly a phase where they’re trying to get rid of non-future parts where they can to save money. It’ll be 5 years since Gorzelanny has thrown 150 innings in a season after this one.
Jim Hendry loves to get his budget lost with replacement players
Who else remembers him jumping on Glendon Rusch, Neifi, Eyre and Howry with over market deals.
Only to complain that Raffy Furcal wanted too much money to sign.
It’s a shining example of why people say the Cubs Front Office is the least efficient in baseball.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
by aaronb on Aug 11, 2011 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
^This^
This is the real issue that I have with JH. It’s not the $ spent on Ramirez, Lee, even Soriano, really. (Although that’s not looking so great now.)
It’s the money that he spends on ancillary players. $1M here, $500k there and pretty soon you’re talking about real money.
Fire Jim Hendry. Injuries aren't the problem.
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 11, 2011 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions
Ummm
1 – A 26 year old high K reliever with velocity, improved performance, and upside could probably pull 3 million on the open market.
2 – Hendry complained about money with Furcal?
3 – Once again, as is often the case, this is whining about Hendry rather than offering actual ideas that improves the team. Don’t you guys get bored of that whole agenda?
4 – Still no suitable replacement named…one who WILL give at least what sharks giving this year….which ignores that it’s possible and probable that he’s growing as a pitcher still.
5 – Right now is the time to acquire young talent, not give it away.
by SenorGato on Aug 11, 2011 12:03 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist
ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT JEFF F’N SAMJAY?
There are literally 150 totally acceptable replacement middle relievers available for a fraction of the cost.
It’s neat he played football and all. But lets be real about things.
You can find a 4.87 career ERA/ 1.57 career WHIP middle reliever ABSOLUTELY ANYWHERE.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
Um there not looking to replace his career numbers.
Nor are they looking to make the team worse by getting someone who is putting up those career numbers when that’s not what Shark is going today. It’s as simple as that.
by SenorGato on Aug 11, 2011 5:09 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
What do you really think Jeff Samjay is?
What team is throwing 3 million plus at him annually? What GM other than Hendry/SenorGato is going to be so incompetent with their funds?
I understand that you love Jim Hendry. I respect that you are captain pollyanna of the “nothing to see here” brigade. I respect and appreciate the optimism.
The rest of us however live in the reality that this is a broken organization. Nothing is going to get better unless we get some qualified and competent people in place.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
What do you really think Jeff Samjay is?
A talented young arm still getting better and having a productive MLB season.
What team is throwing 3 million plus at him annually? What GM other than Hendry/SenorGato is going to be so incompetent with their funds?
Probably at least one other, I’d guess, as young pitching is always wanted and needed. It’s not as if 26 year old power pitchers averaging over a K per IP hit the market everyday, even if it is only a “4th pen arm.” Bullpens shouldn’t be deep or anything. Plus, ANYONE can do it, amirite? No, I’m not when I say that.
I understand that you love Jim Hendry. I respect that you are captain pollyanna of the "nothing to see here" brigade. I respect and appreciate the optimism.
Thanks. I respect the nonsensical arguments made in mostly blind, though clearly not directionless, anger. I even respect that you save love as if it’s a derogatory thing, and that I have any for Hendry simply because I don’t agree that the Cubs are in a bad position after this year based on his work. Shit happens, as I like to say.
The rest of us however live in the reality that this is a broken organization. .
That sucks. I wonder what it’s like to think like that, almost. To me, stuff like this happens. It’s not like we haven’t won with these players before, it’s just that currently it’s not happening. It hasn’t happened in a couple of years, and part of it is because the offense at 1B has been down since…2009. Good thing…I guess I’ll just let it happen.
Samardzija is neither of these
He is not under team control for the following three years. His contract ends this year, but the Cubs hold club options for 2012 and 2013. He won’t even be arbitration eligible at all, I believe, since he signed a guaranteed contract.
I can't imagine the Cubs exercising those options.
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I think he's getting a pay cut
I also wouldn’t be shocked if he was non-tendered and immediately resigned at a cheaper rate.
by Mulhollandmania on Aug 10, 2011 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions
I think it is worth a try
we should do it soon while Demp is still on the team. He made the transition pretty well. They could get together in the offseason for some workouts. With this team it is worth a try.
watch the Cubs not pick up he option and the Cards sign him..
and Dave Duncan turns him into a 20 game winner. I think that guy can polish a turd..lol
That guy CAN polish a turd
Jeff Weaver, Todd Wellemeyer, Joel Pineiro, etc.
The number of turds he’s polished is staggering.
by Mulhollandmania on Aug 10, 2011 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions
I think he is a solid reliever
And losing him in the backend of the team could cost us many games in the future. Plus, if I recall Marshall suffers from lack of Cubs run support often. I know that doesn’t mean much but it’s an oddity I’ve noticed.
I think it's funny that some of the same people howling over DeWitt playing LF
want Marshall to start.
He’s done a great job where he is. Leave him there.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 11, 2011 10:37 AM CDT reply actions
It's funny that people howled over a bad player getting playing time
All the while wanting a good player to perhaps get more playing time? Huh?
FIRE JIM HENDRY. Injuries aren't the problem.
notice how
No one arguing to leave marshall in the pen has offered much more than “if it ain’t broke” in defense. There is really no excuse for not at least trying to move marshall to the rotation in ST, unless the cubs are content to let marshall walk at the end of the year and collect some extra draft picks.
by circuitclout on Aug 11, 2011 12:43 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
I like this idea so much, I proposed it earlier in the year
Actually, what I said was that other teams should acquire him to be a 4th/5th starter if they can pry him loose from the Cubs:
The arguments I was met with were:
1. He’s too cheap and valuable to the Cubs so they won’t trade him
2. If it ain’t broke…
3. He’s comfortable in his role
Maybe the appropriate question: should Marshall be closing?
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
When the team wins enough games for it to matter...
then this could be an appropriate question.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Aug 17, 2011 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions
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