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Around SBN: Full Coverage of 2012 Coke 600

Cubs Make Stirring Ninth-Inning Comeback... And Lose To Mets

Darwin Barney of the Chicago Cubs hits a ninth inning game tying RBI single against the New York Mets at Citi Field in the Flushing neighborhood of the Queens borough of New York City.  (Photo by Jim McIsaac/Getty Images)

This was going to be a puppies, butterflies and rainbows recap, because the Cubs were down to their final strike Friday night before Starlin Castro singled, putting runners on first and second; Darwin Barney drove in the tying run with a seeing-eye single and it looked like the Cubs had, at the very least, taken the game to extra innings.

Not so fast. For one of the few times this season, Sean Marshall didn't get the job done; a single and a sacrifice bunt put a runner on second base in the last of the ninth. After Marshall got Ruben Tejada, an intentional walk set up an at-bat for Justin Turner. Turner had been 2-for-4 already.

So that raises a question: do you play Marlon Byrd shallow to try to cut off the run at the plate, or deep to catch a fly ball? Turner had already doubled once.

Mike Quade and the Cubs chose "shallow", and Turner hit the ball over Byrd's head; it bounced into the seats for a double and the Mets beat the Cubs 5-4. You can't really argue the choice to play Byrd so shallow, although in retrospect it didn't look so good. What if Turner dinks a single into short center field while Byrd is playing deep?

Star-divide

The Cubs fashioned a 3-0 lead by the fourth inning, in part on another long, long home run by Carlos Pena. It was his 27th of the year, and he is the first Cubs lefthanded hitter to hit that many in a season since... Jacque Jones in 2006. Yes, that surprised me too. The last Cubs lefthanded hitter to hit more than 27 home runs in a season was Fred McGriff, who hit 30 in 2002; that 30 was somewhat tainted, as Bruce Kimm kept playing him until he hit the 30th homer (so he could get to the 30/100 plateau again) instead of Hee Seop Choi, then a September callup languishing on the bench. After McGriff hit his 30th on September 22, 2002 in Pittsburgh, he didn't play the rest of the season (six games) except for a single pinch-hitting appearance.

Anyway, I digress. Give me one more bit of digression. there are just two other lefthanded-hitting Cubs who have hit 30 or more home runs in a season since Rick Monday's 32 in 1976: Rick Wilkins (30 in 1993, one of the biggest fluke seasons ever) and Henry Rodriguez (31 in 1998). Pena has a shot at hitting 30, three short with 18 games left.

Casey Coleman, who threw fairly well for four innings, coughed up the lead in the fourth by allowing a three-run Mets rally to allow them to tie, and then gave it up in the fifth on Turner's first double of the game. Coleman didn't pitch that badly, although you couldn't really say he threw well, either; such is the fate of much of the 2011 Cubs pitching staff.

There isn't a whole lot more to say about this game that hasn't been said dozens of times this year. The Cubs took the lead. They blew it. They looked OK at times, but mostly bad. It was the 41st time the Cubs have lost a game this year in which they had the lead at any time. That's a staggeringly large number.

Tom Ricketts and other members of the Cubs front office, who are in New York this weekend, were shown multiple times on the TV broadcast -- very happily when the Cubs tied the game. They weren't shown at the end, when the Mets won. Probably just as well.

It's a quick turnaround to this afternoon's contest. The game preview will post at 11 a.m. CDT.

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Ho-hum. Another disappointment.

I’m looking forward to next year though.

"I'm not much of a chemistry guy, you know. Chemistry to me is a pinch-hit double with the bases loaded"--Jim Frey, Chicago Tribune, 1985.

by zevkalman on Sep 10, 2011 7:41 AM CDT reply actions  

Campana's baserunning blunder didn't help too,

"Hey-Hey! Home Run! Attaboy Ronnie!" ~ Jack Brickhouse

by ronsanto10 on Sep 10, 2011 7:48 AM CDT reply actions  

Instead of stopping he tried to jump it.

not a good move. I surprised he didn’t take off prior. I know Pelfry threw over a ton of times, I still thought Campana was going to steal prior to him getting hit with the ball.

by Grockcubs on Sep 10, 2011 7:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

I dunno.

Those kinds of things are mostly unavoidable. I’ll give Campana a pass on that one.

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by Al Yellon on Sep 10, 2011 8:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

cubs

really really and i meanreally need to get pitching this offseason.i dont know if coleman is ever gonna get it and we dont want lopez in the rotation. i would give edwin jackson a shot.to do list. new gm,new mgr,new pitching and some players who can knock in runs.im not asking for much am i???

by NOMAR on Sep 10, 2011 7:54 AM CDT reply actions  

Coleman

5 innings 4 runs. I know a 5th starter, so not bad. But this team has to fine better starters next year period.
 Len called for a basehit by Barney to celebrate the birth of his new child, and he delivered.
I miss who was filling in last night for Brenly.

by Grockcubs on Sep 10, 2011 7:54 AM CDT reply actions  

There IS some exciting and winning baseball being played...

just not by the Cubs. In the Midwest League Playoffs last night, the Lansing Lugnuts were down to their final strike and elimination in the bottom of the 9th inning, trailing the Dayton Dragons 2-1. It was a pitcher’s night as the Dragon’s hurlers had held the Lugnuts to a lone single through 8 innings.

At one point, Lansing had gone 30 batters without getting a hit. But, a leadoff single, a sac bunt and a strikeout later, the tying run stood at second base in a game that had already been delayed one hour and thirty-seven minutes by heavy rains.

On an 0-2 pitch, the #8 hitter launched a shocking two-out, two-strike, two run homer onto the left field berm and the Lugnuts lived to play another ‘win-or-go-home’ game tonight. It was so unexpected that as the official scorer, I had already filled out all the paperwork to report to the NY stats service crediting Dayton with the series-clinching victory.

It was an unbelievable finish. I’m not ready for the baseball season to be over yet, and I’m glad I get to see some meaningful games being played.

   

There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?

by Zeke on Sep 10, 2011 8:06 AM CDT reply actions  

Sometimes, I have to do it Al. Fortunately, it's all written in pencil.

And I hadn’t made the call yet. But I was dialing as the final pitch was about to be delivered ;)

There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?

by Zeke on Sep 10, 2011 8:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

Oh, and I should say, I wasn't the only one.

Three writers sitting next to me (two from the Blue Jays and one from the Reds) all ‘tore-up’ their stories seconds after the ball cleared the fence. There were more than a few ’s**t’s hurled into the ether.

There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?

by Zeke on Sep 10, 2011 8:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

At least, as a writer these days...

… you don’t actually have to “tear up” paper. You just hit the delete key.

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by Al Yellon on Sep 10, 2011 8:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's EXACTLY what these guys looked like!

Like the old 3 Stooges bit;

“Press…Press… Pull”.

There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?

by Zeke on Sep 10, 2011 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

I would have rather had it be Al with the puppies, butterflies and rainbows recap.

But yours is pretty exciting. Enjoy the game tonight.

Cracker Jack does not have an "s", even in the plural.

by katie casey on Sep 10, 2011 8:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

Tin Caps advanced

They beat Bowling Green to win Eastern Division.

I don’t want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it.

by cub in louies nest on Sep 10, 2011 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yep. The only team in the playoffs with a losing regular season record...

There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?

by Zeke on Sep 10, 2011 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

You could at least mention

Daytona, who is a Cubs franchise and has played absolutely thrilling baseball the past two days. Szczur scoring the go-ahead run in the 8th from second base on an infield single?

by Josh Timmers on Sep 10, 2011 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, but I wasn't in attendance at those games Josh!

That’s a long commute from Michigan.

There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?

by Zeke on Sep 10, 2011 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

LaHair was safe at home too.

He was probably out at third though. Still, that run at the plate makes a difference in the mets strategy.

I think Pena gets #30. He’s been pretty locked in and gets himself into good counts late in games.

We'll miss you Big Boy. #10 for Hall of Fame.

by mrcubsfan on Sep 10, 2011 8:40 AM CDT via mobile reply actions  

I have tried to find this stat and can't

How many games this year has the Cubs had an error in?

by Madison Cub Fan on Sep 10, 2011 8:42 AM CDT reply actions  

That's a good question.

There doesn’t seem to be any way to find it except to go through 144 boxscores.

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by Al Yellon on Sep 10, 2011 8:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

considering the copious amount of stats out there

I find that odd. On the flip side do we actually want to know.

by Madison Cub Fan on Sep 10, 2011 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

I have been trying to find that too.

Cracker Jack does not have an "s", even in the plural.

by katie casey on Sep 10, 2011 8:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

I understand using Tony Campana as a pinch runner...

…what I don’t understand is why that guy is allowed to bat in a one run game…in late innings. I’m pretty certain most woulda rather seen LaHair batting than Tony C…whom he replaced in the 7th inning. Hell, even a Tyler Colvin woulda been a better AB than Campana. Campana’s use should be LATE innings as a pinch runner. A one shot thing. Steal a base and score or try again tomorrow…and NOT in the 6th or 7th inning. If they’re trying to see what they have with that guy as far as next year goes…they need to just ask me and I’ll send them an e-mail. He’s a 26th man on a 25 man squad. He has one purpose offensively…he can run…that’s it. Also…he’s got 120 ABs this year and 6 walks.

You know life is good when you hear "Die Hard 5" is in production. Yippee ki-yay, &%^##(&(#&%-ers !

by Easy Ed on Sep 10, 2011 8:45 AM CDT reply actions  

Oh yeah...one more thing...

I’d like to know what Byrd’s BA/OBP/SLG is since he came back from that fastball to the face. He’s done. He reminds me of Sosa after Sosa got his helmet cracked in Pittsburgh (I think). He was never really the same either.

You know life is good when you hear "Die Hard 5" is in production. Yippee ki-yay, &%^##(&(#&%-ers !

by Easy Ed on Sep 10, 2011 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

You're wrong, Ed.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=byrdma01&year=&t=b

Byrd’s best month of the season was May, his second best was July, after he returned from the injury. He had a bad August, and he’s having a truly terrible September. But to say that Byrd has been negatively affected by the injury is, well, baseless, as far as I can tell — unless it took him a month to get affected.

The only other way you COULD have been right is if his RBIs had gone way down after the injury (I know, I know — it’s more valuable to look at BA with RISP, but I don’t know how to do that month to month, and I think the point stands here anyway). But Byrd only had 13 RBIs when he was hit in the face in Boston. So, it doesn’t seem like he’s changed his approach/become more hesitant.

Sosa’s problem — combined with age and (likely) lack of PEDs — was that he started standing way back in the box, after the Torres pitch to the face. But I don’t see Byrd doing that.

Byrd’s not that good a baseball player — I wonder if he’d still be around if he wasn’t pretty good defensively. In a way, he’s become Jacque Jones Jr. around here — which is too bad, because Marlon’s a pretty good guy who reportedly works very hard. I just wish he hadn’t required a three-year deal.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 10, 2011 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

He wasn't good before he got hit in the face this season

He’ll be lucky to drive in 35 rbi’s this year and his swing is putrid. Not a Cub I want back next year.

Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory­, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicate­d. - George Costanza

by troutfishin on Sep 10, 2011 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm with you

I don’t understand why so many people here want to see him play more. Great, he is fast but his hitting skills are practically non-existent. “Try and hit a groundball and outrun the throw” is a not an up and coming new hitting strategy.

If Campana gets some starts the final two weeks over Byrd, fine but I don’t want him on the 2012 team.

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on Sep 10, 2011 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

Campana COULD be a useful player IF...

… he could learn plate discipline and take some walks.

Further, he ought to bunt more.

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by Al Yellon on Sep 10, 2011 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yep and he seems like a guy that would take to some instruction

One of the many things the Cubs lack is speed and he’s full of it.

Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory­, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicate­d. - George Costanza

by troutfishin on Sep 10, 2011 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agree

but considering he doesn’t walk or bunt effectively now, I doubt those skills will develop. Players in the majors don’t completely change their approach very frequently.

As I said before, Campana should have been told to watch a Brett Butler career retrospective.

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on Sep 10, 2011 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

As troutfishin mentioned above..

… Campana seems coachable. Plate discipline is one thing you CAN learn after you reach the major leagues, I believe.

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by Al Yellon on Sep 10, 2011 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'd say learning bunting in the majors is easier than plate discipline.

Most players are who they are by the time they reach the majors. With the quality of major league pitching I think it is very tough to try and change. The majors isn’t the place for experimentation.

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on Sep 10, 2011 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

There's an old saying in baseball ...

that players from Latin America “don’t walk off the island”. In a broad stroke, it implies that Latin players are less patient, because they won’t get the attention of big league scouts by being patient at the plate when they’re younger.

I’m not saying I agree with the generalization, but it often seems like you can’t walk your way into the Cubs organization. So few players come up through the minors with any sort of plate discipline (Soto is the only one whom I can think of at the big league level). Combine that with Rudy “Swing at the first pitch, I have a plane to catch” Jamarillo, and I’m not surprised Campana is a hacker.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 10, 2011 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Sammy Sosa managed to learn it after 1997.

Jeff Pentland helped teach it to him.

If Sosa can learn it, anyone can.

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by Al Yellon on Sep 10, 2011 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

However

to repeat one of your frequent statements, just because one player has done against all odds don’t expect others.

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on Sep 10, 2011 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Point taken.

Still, it would be worth trying in this case, because the player in question has one skill that could be extremely useful, if he could learn another.

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by Al Yellon on Sep 10, 2011 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

Campana will only make the team in 2012 ...

if three of the other four Cub outfielders can’t play center. Campana can help himself by doing well, but he’s in Sam Fuld Country, at this point.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 10, 2011 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

Reminds me of Al's against all odds argument against LaHair

Campana’s speed makes it worth at least trying.

I don’t want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it.

by cub in louies nest on Sep 10, 2011 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

I've made the same point before.

But … Sosa is an incredibly unique case AND this is a definite chicken-and-the-egg situation: Did Sosa become more patient, allowing him to hit more home runs, or did Sosa start hitting more home runs (with, ahem, supplemental help) making other teams pitch around him more?

This isn’t an either/or situation. Sosa had to become more patient in either scenario (less if other teams started to really pitch around him). But citing him as an example for why Tony Campana — whose game is about as different as Sosa’s as is imaginable — doesn’t do much for me.

Why pitch around Campana (like other teams pitched around Sosa) when there’s almost no chance Campana will hit one out? Hell, you could make a case that pitching around Campana is the worst thing another team could do because the worst thing that can happen is for him to draw a walk and steal a base.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 10, 2011 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

One of the reasons Sosa started hitting more HR...

… is that Pentland helped teach him to lay off the low and outside pitches he used to flail at. Pitchers knew they had to start throwing him strikes.

I know Sosa and Campana’s games are about as different as any two players’ could be. But it would still be valuable if Campana could learn to do what Sammy did — take more pitches and draw more walks.

For different reasons, true. But it would still make Campana more valuable.

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by Al Yellon on Sep 10, 2011 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

It absolutely would make Campana more valuable.

I’m just not sure it’s that doable. Other than Sosa, is there an example of a Cub who developed more patience after they were on the big-league roster?

It’s not just that Sosa and Campana are very different. It’s that Sosa is such an isolated example — at least, as far as my memory goes.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 10, 2011 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Just because another Cub hasn't done it...

… doesn’t mean it can’t be done.

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by Al Yellon on Sep 10, 2011 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

And just because Sammy Sosa did it ...

doesn’t mean Tony Campana can.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 10, 2011 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

Are you trying to say that

the skill set of recent Cubs rosters has been less that perfect?

No!!!!!

by ClarkFan on Sep 10, 2011 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Actually Bunting skills come with repetition, you could literally take a person off...

…the street and have them bunting with enough reps after a week, now hitting a 95mph fastball is another story.

Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory­, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicate­d. - George Costanza

by troutfishin on Sep 10, 2011 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

And bunting would really add to Campana's game

In addition to bunt hits, drawing infielders in would mean more “seeing eye” hits.

Bunt, Tony, bunt!

by ClarkFan on Sep 10, 2011 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm basically in agreement with you both here.

Campana is strangely coveted on BCB. But, if the Cubs first four outfielders in 2012 are somewhat defensively limited — say, only the starting CF can play center. Campana could have been valuable on last year’s team (top four outfielders were Soriano, Byrd, Kosuke, Nady).

But I don’t see that happening. It would require the Cubs to shed Reed Johnson, Tyler Colvin and Marlon Byrd. One of those guys will be back in 2012, maybe all three (yuck).

But if the Cubs somehow dealt Byrd and called up Jackson, were forced to keep Soriano, and signed two Xavier Nady types (not endorsing this, mind you) to fill out the roster, then I could see Campana back — particularly if both outfielders are right handed.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 10, 2011 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Sorry, for the incomplete sentence.

Still waking up.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 10, 2011 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

I also hope that isn't the situation

as that leaves Campana as the primary left-handed pinch hitter. I always prefer a strong left handed 1B/OF type guy on the roster as the top pinch-hitter. A Ward, Stairs, etc. type player.

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on Sep 10, 2011 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not necessarily.

The primary left handed pinch hitter could be an infielder.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 10, 2011 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not DeWitt though.

Usually your 1B/OF types are better hitters than the infielders but I understand your point. It is just my preference to always have a Daryle Ward type player on a roster especially in today’s game with 5 bench players. That why I actually agree with Quade trying LaHair in the outfield. If he can show he is adequate (and not Alonso quality) then he could potentially be that player next year.

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on Sep 10, 2011 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

Totally agree.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 10, 2011 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

not Blakey?

I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.

by timh815 on Sep 10, 2011 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

Campana vs. Colvin is a real study in contrasts

But I think if LaHair is on the 2012 team, that uses up all the oxygen for Colvin. LaHair has Colvin’s offensive skill (LH power hitter) with much better OBP.

The thing that makes Campana interesting is that no one else on the team has his main tool – extreme speed. If the team manages to move Byrd or Soriano, there is a good chance Campana makes the 2012 team as 5th OF/designated runner.

by ClarkFan on Sep 10, 2011 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Possibly.

And you’re right — if LaHair makes the team, Campana’s chances go up. But I’m not sure Campana’s chances improve if Soriano or Byrd is dealt.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 10, 2011 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think his odds have to improve - since he is an OF and dealing one or both of them reduced the number of OF in the rotation

And other than Jackson, it’s not like there is anyone else who was in Iowa or Tennessee this year who will force their way onto the MLB team. Campana would benefit by default unless a deal brings in another OF.

by ClarkFan on Sep 10, 2011 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

I always thought that with two out you play to get the third out,

and not play to protect the plate against a possible hit. The pulled in outfield is used with less than two out and the bases loaded, for instance, because a long fly sacrifices the winning run in anyway. Then, if you get the second out, the fielders typically go back to normal depth to get the third out.

The chances of an out are greater than a base hit in most cases and by pulling in the outfield you sacrifice potential routine outs assuming the hit. I don’t get it. Byrd probably would have run that ball down if he was playing at normal depth.

One of Lee Elia's 15%

by waiting4cubs on Sep 10, 2011 9:00 AM CDT reply actions  

I would certainly think it is easier to run it to get a ball

than it would be to run back to get one hit over your head. Not to mention, It should be easier to complete a throw when you are moving forward.

I don’t want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it.

by cub in louies nest on Sep 10, 2011 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

Fixing these pitchers

Seems our Nos. 4-5 Lopez esp. and last nite Coleman can be breezing along and then, around 5th or 6th inning, really get lit up…isn’t this something the pitching coach should be on top of, getting them to make adjustments the 3rd time through the order? Coleman at least didn’t walk guys last nite…he could be serviceable 5th starter and keep Lopez as insurance but we defintely need to add 2 starters to Demp, Wells & Garza…trade for one and sign a FA and maybe take on a rehabbing type like Bedard.

I don’t think investing $100 million in CJ Wilson is too smart for the long term.I

by QuincyCub on Sep 10, 2011 9:24 AM CDT reply actions  

Re: Jacque Jones

I think JJ was one of the most unfairly maligned Cubs in the past decade. He wasn’t very good — and he had absolutely no arm and was a bad baserunner (which I never understood — aren’t the Twins big on fundamentals?). But he did have a good year in 2006 (albeit on a terrible team) and he was huge in the second half of 2007. I’ll go out on a limb and say that if Jones hadn’t had so many clutch hits — and filled the void in center left by Jim Hendry’s ridiculous decision to put Soriano there to start the season — the Cubs would not have won the Central in 2007.

That said, I wasn’t sad when Jones was moved. I just never understood why so many Cubs fans disliked him. He was the definition of a third outfielder.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 10, 2011 9:29 AM CDT reply actions  

Completely agree.

Seemed like I was always defending Jones back then. Yes, his arm was awful and I think that was part of the problem. Some of his throws were incredibly bad and obviously that was very visible. However, with the bat he did (or exceeded) everything that should have been expected of him based on his career numbers and age. In fact his 2006 season was arguably the second best season of his career.

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on Sep 10, 2011 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

First off like some claimed the dislike of JJ had NOTHING to do with racism.

My personal belief is that JJ was the whipping boy for the fervent dislike of Jim Hendry that was starting to rear it’s head at the time. Cubs fans couldn’t take their grievances to Hendry or the Cubs organization at the time so they took it out on him. He wasn’t a bad guy, aloof maybe but he didn’t seem like a bad guy.

Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory­, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicate­d. - George Costanza

by troutfishin on Sep 10, 2011 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think SOME of it ...

had to do with the slow start Jones got off to in 2006, that coincided with the 2006 disaster and the end of the Wood-Prior era.

I’m sure SOME fans were racist — that’s just statistically likely. But did that affect the overall Jones dislike? I don’t think so.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 10, 2011 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's kind of what I meant when I said it had nothing to do with...

…racism. You might have a few drunk morons booing a player in any given ballpark because of the color of their skin but it wouldn’t be enough to be noticeable. He was a bad signing and Cubs fans let the organization know it anyway they knew how.

Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory­, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicate­d. - George Costanza

by troutfishin on Sep 10, 2011 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't even think he was a bad signing.

He falls into the ‘meh’ category with me. He was worth his contract in 2006 and 2007. Hell, he might have been a better sign than Marlon Byrd, if you think about it.

But I understand what you mean (and meant) about racism being a factor.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 10, 2011 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think it was a bad signing per se.

He was paid what he was worth. Could the Cubs have used a bigger bat in RF? Probably but at least Jones was a good value unlike players like Bradley and Grabow.

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on Sep 10, 2011 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

If you think about it after the success and disaster of the '03 - '04 seasons

Hendry goes out and gets Jeremy Burnitz as his right fielder. I knew at the time along with most other fans that you can’t build a winner with Burnitz as your right fielder. 2006 was the same thing, Hendry goes out and signs another roster filler type player in JJ and that was the culmination of the building frustration.

Both you and elgato are right, he did play to his salary but unless the Cubs had other players around him you weren’t going anywhere. ‘05 and ’06 were two very lost seasons and Cub fans coming off ’03 and ’04 I don’t think were prepared for a quick fall into baseball hell.

Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory­, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicate­d. - George Costanza

by troutfishin on Sep 10, 2011 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

Actually ...

Burnitz could have been fine in 2005, if the guy in left wasn’t Todd Hollandsworth. And Jones (in 2006) would have been fine if the starting left fielder wasn’t Matt Murton.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 10, 2011 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

This is true for me.

Never thought Jacque was a bad guy, but I didn’t like signing a guy who had trouble getting on base.

Seeya Jimbo! Good job, Tommy Boy!

by shoemile on Sep 10, 2011 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sure.

But it’s not like Jones was alone in that.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 10, 2011 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is right

Jones was a decent ballplayer who played hard. Some Cub fans never forgave him for not being a great ballplayer.

Two other things played in this. The first is that he had a tendency to get off to bad starts and that would set an impression of him throughout the season for some. The other thing is that Jones was a very sensitive ballplayer and he took the boos personally. That didn’t help.

by Josh Timmers on Sep 10, 2011 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Totally agree.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 10, 2011 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Regarding Casey Coleman

I think your comment Al of “Coleman didn’t pitch that badly, although you couldn’t really say he threw well…” is really what would likely define most of his starts. Rarely dominant, rarely abysmal, and probably one problem inning shy of turning in quality start performances.

by BeltwayCubsFan on Sep 10, 2011 9:53 AM CDT reply actions  

He's been called a poor man's Greg Maddux.

Coleman, to me, is a poor man’s Tom Gorzelanny. Gorzo was usually just good enough to throw five or six decent innings and take no decisions. Coleman is just good enough to throw four or five good innings and take a loss or ND.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 10, 2011 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

Casey's dad, Joe

Justin Verlander won his 22nd game of the season this past Wednesday, and became the first Tigers pitcher to do so since Joe Coleman back in 1973,

by EalyEagle on Sep 10, 2011 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

Gorzelanny is a good comp

We need to stop comparing anyone to Greg Maddux in any way. Maddux is so unique that any comparison to him is meaningless. Same with Jamie Moyer.

by Josh Timmers on Sep 10, 2011 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

and if the rest of the rotation was strong

you could live with that.

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on Sep 10, 2011 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

Al: Puppies, butterflies and rainbows are bad and evil creatures...

;-)

If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.

by eths on Sep 10, 2011 10:41 AM CDT via mobile reply actions  

No mention of Cashner's return to the mound?

I didn’t actually see it… but the box score tells me he did well.

Good to see him back, finally.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Sep 10, 2011 12:54 PM CDT reply actions  

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