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Alfonso Soriano: Broken, But Useful?

Over the next three years, Alfonso Soriano will earn $54M from the Chicago Cubs, or basically the GDP of a small island nation. This much we just about know for certain. If the Cubs elect to drop him as though hot, then they are guaranteed to earn zero production from the pride of San Pedro de Macoris, but would have at least one more roster spot -- both on the 40-man and 25-man roster -- to play with, as well as a starting left field position available for the taking.

The most important questions, though, are: What can Soriano offer the Cubs? And, more crucially, do the Cubs benefit from playing Soriano?

First question first: What can Soriano do in 2012?

Let's assume Soriano's present walk rate (a terrible 4.9%), his strikeout rate (23.3%), and home run rate (5.6% or 24 over 429 plate appearances) stay the same next year. The walk rate is the third worst of his career and the strikeout rate is pretty much a career worst, but -- hey -- he's going to be 36, so depreciation is in full force at this point in his career.

The final major component of his hitting (according the present analysis, at least) is his batting average on balls in play (BABIP). For his career, just about 1 out of every 3 balls he's hit into play have gone for a hit. This year, that average is a career low .263 -- a descent not uncommon among the aged and injured.

Well, assuming his rates stay at their 2011 levels, we can construct a contingency chart that lets us predict how well he will do in 2012 at different levels of BABIP. Using the Should Hit, we get this:

Image001_medium

This year, Alfonso Soriano has been league average and then a little worse. According to weighted runs created (wRC+), he's been 1% below league average (not including today's 0 for 2 showing). Remember, that's with a .263 BABIP.

Star-divide

As recently as last year, though, Soriano had a .295 BABIP, despite hitting slightly fewer line drives than this year. So, maybe this year has actually been just kind of unlucky? Maybe he gets back to a near-.300 BABIP?

If he indeed does rebound, he would be hitting somewhere around 11% to 14% above league average. That's not bad. That's like what Peter Bourjos has hit this year with a .278/.329/.442 slash. (But don't bother comparing the defense between the two.)

At 114 wRC+, that would be more offensive value than Carlos Pena's 2011 season -- a 112 wRC+, heavily penalized by his really, really cold start.

If Soriano's BABIP stays low and his rate-stats stay where they have been all year, then the Cubs need to find a platoon partner or even start thinking DFA. (Despite his rough year, Soriano has actually excelled against lefties, hitting 22% above average against them.)

But even if his hitting comes around and he has a late-career surge, where does he fit in the Cubs plans?

This is where the problem expands. Earning $18M per year pretty much guarantees he will not out-produce his contract value. Moreover, the Cubs -- by most analysts expectations -- will not be competitive in 2012.

So the question becomes: How valuable is a roster spot? Are the Cubs willing to eat $10M or $16M or the whole $18M in order to give a young guy some MLB time?

Phew. That's a lot of change paid in the name of trying to catch lightening in a bottle (I'm looking at you, Tony Campana). But, what if a team hungry for power, rich in prospects, and looking to fill a DH spot is willing to throw a few 'spects the Cubs way?

Yeah, I'm thinking about the ever-poor, ever-competitive Tampa Bay Rays. Sending Soriano and something close to maybe $15M or $16M down to St. Pete might just entice away a pitching prospect or two. A pitching prospect in the top 20 with the Rays is in the top 5 with most other organizations, so there's bound to be a few interesting no-names buried in their system (see: Zach Rosscup).

Of course, Tampa Bay is in a habit of selling lemons, not buying them, so Soriano would might need to prove he can still hit before the Rays consider swinging a trade, and by then, they may well have filled their DH opening (they may even elect to re-sign Johnny Damon).

The truth is this: Alfonso Soriano is broken. He is nowhere near the World Devourer he once was in 2006 and 2007. And, odds are, he's out of baseball at the end of 2012.

Still, he may yet offer the Cubs something worth while. If he rebounds and the Cubs are somehow competitive, then he could play nice starting left field, maybe even play a platoon role with a strong left-handed hitter or fielder. If he rebounds and the Cubs are rebuilding, then he might still bring the Cubs some prospects as well as speed the rebuilding process by giving Campana and Tyler Colvin and maybe even a few Quad-A types a chance to prove themselves.

If he doesn't rebound, well, he'd be the world's highest-paid pinch hitter and lefty-masher. For maybe a month or two.

Poll
Alfonso Soriano in 2012...
...will rebound, help the Cubs fight for the division.
11 votes
...will rebound, get traded and start for another team.
9 votes
...will rebound, get traded and platoon for another team.
18 votes
...will continue to depreciate, become a platoon player.
99 votes
...will continue to depreciate, become a pinch hitter.
13 votes
...will continue to depreciate, leave baseball.
24 votes

174 votes | Poll has closed

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

Comment 115 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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Drop him like a dead weight.

We have OFs in the system that are currently blocked because of him; whether he’s on the bench as a pinch-hitter or 4th outfielder, he’s taking up space. I attribute his decline BABIP to his lollygagging around (in all seriousness, BABIP does take into account speed and “luck” or how hard a player runs out a ball).

How valuable is a roster spot?

I don’t know the inherent dollar value of a position player, but I do know that he should be traded for cents on the dollar and a new regime can instantly gain credibility with fans, staff, other baseball organizations, and send a message to Chicago Cubs players: We will not tolerate mediocrity any longer.

Dan

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on Sep 2, 2011 8:00 AM CDT reply actions  

I don’t know the inherent dollar value of a position player, but I do know that he should be traded for cents on the dollar and a new regime can instantly gain credibility with fans, staff, other baseball organizations, and send a message to Chicago Cubs players: We will not tolerate mediocrity any longer.

This.

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by Al Yellon on Sep 2, 2011 8:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes

I have gone back and forth on Soriano, but I think this point is going to be the factor that sends him out of town.

I do think he still has some value, but none to the Cubs. If any team were to give even a decent prospect, I would eat nearly all of it.

Al’s post yesterday was spot on, exactly what the Cubs should be doing and resolving the Sorinao / Zambrano issues will go extremely far in gaining credibility and showing the organization demands accountability.

by nick5253 on Sep 2, 2011 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

This is ultimately my conclusion too:
I do think he still has some value, but none to the Cubs. If any team were to give even a decent prospect, I would eat nearly all of it.

A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Sep 2, 2011 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes because dumping Soriano

Will magically make some of these clowns better.

A mediocre player is just mediocre. The team could water board Soriano in front of everyone and it won’t improve them.

"It's all in the game, yo"

by Worf on Sep 2, 2011 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

One small exception to your comments

This organization willingly pursued Soriano and gave him an 8 year contract. It’s perfectly appropriate to suggest we won’t tolerate mediocrity but is that on the players or the team that puts the roster together. Obviously we can’t have a 25 man roster with nothing but All Stars. However, this organization can’t guarantee long term starts to players that can be upgraded. We made a mistake with Soriano. We’ll make more mistakes in the future. When that happens, accept responsibility and eat your losses.

If it wasn't for the injuries, we'd be printing WS tickets right now.

by tharr on Sep 2, 2011 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Keep him to start 2012

but only play him 50-60% of time vs. lefties and easier righties. get campana in lineup see what he can do with that speed. try to trade at deadline and if can’t, drop at end of 2012 *(unless we sign Pujols or Fielder, 2012 is a rebuilding year anyway).

by QuincyCub on Sep 2, 2011 8:26 AM CDT reply actions  

Good stuff, Brad

If the Cubs can save even $3 million per year over the next three by dealing Soriano, they’ve got to do it. He does still have productive life left in the bat, but my eyes tell me he’s costing the Cubs runs in left field on a regular basis. Even if the Cubs deal Byrd to open up a spot for BJax, I think they’ve still got to strongly consider moving Soriano.

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by Brett Taylor on Sep 2, 2011 8:29 AM CDT reply actions  

By many accounts.......

……. Hendry tried very hard to unload Soriano leading up to the deadline. Why does anyone think there would takers now?

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by BeerCub on Sep 2, 2011 9:20 AM CDT reply actions  

With retirements, release, and free agency, the market is constantly changing.

Soriano can still mash lefties no matter what, and I imagine there are a handful of team wills to $3M for a left-masher.

A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Sep 2, 2011 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

But really......

…… this is all based on supposition. There’s really no one team right now anyone can point to that could use Soriano.

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by BeerCub on Sep 2, 2011 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

The Rays almost got no-hit by yet another strong lefty.

They’ve been hungry for a lefty-masher since 2008.

A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Sep 2, 2011 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

And yet.......

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by BeerCub on Sep 2, 2011 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

This year

their OPS+ vs LHP is 109.
 vs RHP it is 96.

Add to that the fact LHP only accounts for about only 25% of AB, that would be a hard sell.

If it wasn't for the injuries, we'd be printing WS tickets right now.

by tharr on Sep 2, 2011 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh, it certainly wouldn't be an easy sell; I'm with you on that.

Still, they have given 340+ PAs this year — a man who was expected to be a 4th OF. I’m sure they’d love a little more home run potential and a possible platoon mate for Matt Joyce after B.J. Upton gets traded.

Also, they’re lefty-crushing is largely the product of Ben Zobrist, Evan Longoria, and Sean Rodriguez. They would love to have more than two hitters capable of handling lefties, I imagine, but they won’t pay a cent more than $3M.

A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Sep 2, 2011 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

If their intention

is to use Soriano as a platoon guy against LHP and pay him $3M, and he gets only 25% of the AB, that’s the equivalent of paying a full time starter $12M. I can’t see the economics of that by our (very hopefully) future GM. I respect his reaction to those parameters would be a sound NO.

If it wasn't for the injuries, we'd be printing WS tickets right now.

by tharr on Sep 2, 2011 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

If he can crush lefties to the tune of an .860 OPS (as he is this season), it's definitely worth it.

You have Soriano hitting .860 OPS for $3MM, so you just have to match him up with a left-handed hitter who kills righties accordingly, and who makes $9MM.

Voila – $12MM platoon that provides an .860 OPS.

That’s kind of how it works.

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by D98 on Sep 2, 2011 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Tough crowd...

Fonz is gonna have a final season’s line in the neighborhood of .250/28/75. Let’s say they DO trade him and eat $45M of his contract…that means LF will STILL cost you $15M a year. Now, do you really think someone like Tyler Colvin, Reed Johnson, B-Jax or Tony frickin’ Campana is gonna be worth that? Unless Soriano can be dealt at no more than a 50% loss, he needs to stay right where he’s at. You wanna dump an OF who’s about useless? Dump Byrd.

Good job, Tom...now on to the manager problem.

by Easy Ed on Sep 2, 2011 9:22 AM CDT reply actions  

Far more

I’d be open to trading Byrd, but only because he has actual value and will bring back a decent return. If you’re trading him for peanuts to clear payroll and open a roster spot, that’s not a good decision.

As far as what the OF costs, it doesn’t matter. Those are sunk costs and now they just need to get the best talent on the field.

by nick5253 on Sep 2, 2011 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think they need to get the best talent not on the field, but just into the system.

That’s where trading Byrd would come in — and hopefully Soriano, too. Trading either or both of those guys promises the on-field product will fall off, but at least the system as whole moves towards long-term success.

A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Sep 2, 2011 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

Very True

2012 will be a transition year so the talent actually on the field won’t matter as much as building talent for 2013 and beyond. If that means starting Colvin and BJax or not will be an interesting decision.

by nick5253 on Sep 2, 2011 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think starting Colvin makes sense, but bring up Jackson means using up his service time.

The Cubs can certainly afford it, but it just is not a free lunch or anything.

A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Sep 2, 2011 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

What's the difference between 4th place and 3rd place in a division?

I’ll tell you: Worse draft picks and slightly worse attendance. In general, though, I would say: Don’t bother putting a winning team on the field unless you have a legit shot at the division or wild card.

A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Sep 2, 2011 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

The difference is

a slightly more entertaining team. Since Cubs games are a major source of entertainment to me, and winning games are more entertaining than losing games, I want them to win as many games as they can. Yes, I realize that some balance has to be struck between future and current interests, but I don’t buy (at all) that regular season games don’t matter when the team isn’t contending. The organization is still putting a product on the field and people still pay to see it.

by Aaron T. on Sep 3, 2011 11:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

win what? win when?

a few games this september? next year? i’d rather bjax clock not start until its gonna potentially do the Cubs some good. i dont care about winning ballgames anymore this year.

So i you can give you can take it.

by epsilon on Sep 2, 2011 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

No, to both of you.....

Getting him some time to get acclimated so he can better help us next year.

He would have to stay down next year until June to protect his “clock”

I guess that is more important.

by TJ11 on Sep 2, 2011 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

Lemme guess...sabermetrics, right?

Byrd’s gonna have about 425 plate appearances this year and see a total of what…500 pitches? He’s useless.

Good job, Tom...now on to the manager problem.

by Easy Ed on Sep 2, 2011 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

They're both pretty bad.

Soriano has more power and drives in more runs, but Byrd can at least play defense capably.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 2, 2011 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't call Byrd useless

If you go by UZR (yes, I know that’s sabermetrics), he’s been the second best defensive CF in the NL over the last two years.

by Jody Jody Davis on Sep 2, 2011 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

...? Since when is a .295/.339/.417 slash useless?

If we can’t agree on Byrd being at least useful, then unfortunately a discussion like this would be a mutual waste of our time, Ed.

A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Sep 2, 2011 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

The problem is that Avg with RISP does not appear to be a particular skill for any one player,

at least not to the degree that we mythologize it. Year over year, it has very little correlation; so just because he’s doing bad this year, doesn’t mean he’d continue to be bad next year.

And concerning the RBIs, I’m pretty sure anyone batting with Fukudome or never-take-a-walk Barney in front of them would not have many RBIs. That’s more of a product of the lineup, not a failure of Byrd’s.

A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Sep 2, 2011 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Well, wait a second.

Byrd has been hitting behind Ramirez and Pena. And why would someone batting behind Kosuke (who did draw walks) have a tough time driving in runs?

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 2, 2011 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

Actually, looking over the numers now, it does appear he has indeed hit 6th most of the year:

Split G GS PA AB HR SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS BAbip tOPS+ sOPS+
Batting 3rd 27 27 120 115 1 1 1 .287 .317 .365 .682 .352 81 70
Batting 5th 35 34 140 131 2 0 0 .290 .329 .435 .764 .321 101 103
Batting 6th 33 33 132 119 4 1 0 .303 .366 .445 .812 .360 115 124
Batting 7th 1 1 4 4 0 0 0 .500 .500 .500 1.000 .500 167 191
Batting 9th 1 0 0 0 0 0 0

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 9/2/2011.

A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Sep 2, 2011 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

My question still stands about your previous point.

If Byrd hit fifth or sixth most of the time, guys like Ramirez and Pena would have been on base. It’s not like Barney and Kosuke were hitting fourth and fifth.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 2, 2011 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

Indeed, that's a fair point.

All the same, RBIs are tied to context and BA with RISP is a crap shoot. Neither metric tells us anything of value about Byrd’s ability as a hitter.

A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Sep 2, 2011 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

If I didn't think that Byrd's issues with RISP ...

didn’t tie in directly with his complete lack of plate discipline, I might agree. But I think Byrd, like Soriano, gets more hits when pitchers are throwing first-pitch strikes to avoid walking guys when the bases are empty. Throwing junk and walking Byrd or Soriano isn’t nearly as big a deal if there’s a guy on second, because a walk is better than an RBI, in that case.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 2, 2011 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Sorry, for the double negative.

I think you get my drift, though.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 2, 2011 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's a very distinct possibility.

A quick look at Byrd’s numbers shows he’s struggling with the bendy pitches this year:

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=950&position=OF#pitchvalues

The only thing I’d want to check is whether or not pitchers are actually throwing him more bendy stuff in run-scoring situations.

A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Sep 2, 2011 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

BTW, this is more reason to ditch the supremely overrated Rudy Jamarillo.

I don’t think it’s any coincidence that Rudy’s biggest success stories (Bagwell, Palmeiro, etc.) all were at their peaks before OBP really took hold in baseball. The Rangers GOT BETTER after Rudy left!

The Cubs have a bad habit of developing players who are hackers, but hiring Rudy made the problem worse.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 2, 2011 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

Last in the league in walks.

I doubt Rudy survives the coming Winter cuts.

A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Sep 2, 2011 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

The Jamarillo hire ...

might have been the most obvious sign that the game had passed Jim Hendry by — even if we didn’t see it for that at the time.

At a time when most clubs were focusing on OBP, our GM paid a lot for a hitting coach known for preaching aggressiveness.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 2, 2011 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's because

he has stunk it up in the three hole for so long. Then he stunk it up in the five spot, and got moved to the six spot, which is right were he belongs along with everyone else on the team other than Castro, rami, and Barney(who should be eighth)

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by Notsnud on Sep 2, 2011 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

How many times have we watched him pop out with RISP on the first pitch.

Maybe your Rays would enjoy him batting in the middle of their order next year…..

I am guessing not.

by TJ11 on Sep 2, 2011 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Honestly, Byrd would probably fit better on a low-contact team like the Rays.

They are near the top of the league in walks, so high-contact guys like Byrd and (this year) Casey Kotchman can move runners around unlike most of the lineup’s remainder.

That being said, I doubt Joe Maddon would hit Byrd any higher than 6th.

A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Sep 2, 2011 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

Maddon is a good manager....

I see him using Byrd as a 4th OF….

by TJ11 on Sep 2, 2011 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't.

Not now, anyway. Byrd still has value defensively, and he’s better than Tony Campana.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 2, 2011 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ok...now, show me his stats with RISP w/ less than 2 outs...

…or, how many 1st pitch DPs he’s hit into in clutch situations. He’s got 25 RBIs!!! I know he was hurt, but, he’s batted mid lineup 95% of the year. 25 RBIs is downright pathetic.

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by Easy Ed on Sep 2, 2011 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, it's pathetic, but RBIs are a team effort.

If the guys in front of him are getting to third base, instead of first, then those GIDPs are suddenly RBIs.

The problem is there’s just too much context when it comes to RBIs and BA with RISP.

A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Sep 2, 2011 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

But Byrd had Pena, who walks a lot, and Ramirez ...

the team’s best hitter, ahead of him in the lineup for almost the entire season.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 2, 2011 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

Put another way ...

Ramirez leads the team in RBIs and he’s had Kosuke and Barney DIRECTLY ahead of him in the lineup for most of the year!

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 2, 2011 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

Waiting for your response to this question, BWoodrum ...

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 2, 2011 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hitters in the 3rd and 4th hole -- regardless of the player, regardless of the team -- always get more RBI chances.

Look how Ramirez has had almost 40 more PAs with runners in scoring position:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=ramirar01&year=2011&t=b#bases

As compared to Byrd:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=byrdma01&year=2011&t=b#bases

Context is huge in RBIs. Tack on the fact that Byrd’s lowest BABIPs come with the bases loaded and with runners on second, which may be a bad approach, but also hints at a fairly large amount of bad luck.

A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Sep 2, 2011 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

It's a bad approach and bad luck.

But smart hitters can impact one of those things.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 2, 2011 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

Indeed.

I still don’t think he useless, though.

A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Sep 2, 2011 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Me, either.

I do think most of Byrd’s value comes from the fact that he plays a pretty decent CF. Otherwise, he’s pretty much Ryan Theriot.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 2, 2011 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

Mostly, I thought you were giving Byrd too much cover ...

for where he hits in the lineup. I don’t think that has much at all to do with his performance with RISP.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 2, 2011 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Byrd is a much better hitter than Theriot

Seriously, use any comprehensive metric (wOBA, Tav, OPS, wRC+, etc.). I also don’t buy the BA with RISP argument. His performance with RISP over the years has gone up and down, seemingly at random. It looks like random noise to me. Over a long career, a players performance in different situations tends to look a lot like their overall numbers.

by Aaron T. on Sep 3, 2011 11:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

I have to add my name to the irrational hate of players

Epsilon = marlon byrd. he’s a good guy, a decent player, a good clubhouse guy, but his approach at the plate just drives me nuts. i would rather have soriano flubbing around in left than byrd flailing at the first pitch.

So i you can give you can take it.

by epsilon on Sep 2, 2011 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Whoa big fella

Whether Soriano plays LF here or somewhere else, he’ll cost us $18M for each of the next three years minus what we get back for him. That $54M is sunk money. It will not ever go away. The best we can hope for is relief via a trade.

So the only real debate is which player will add the most value to the team in LF. If we keep Soriano he won’t cost us any additional monies than the $18M/yr. If we use a prospect that costs us $.5M, our cost is now $18.5M/yr. So the incremental cost of replacing Sori is really insignificant. Campana or Colvin don’t have to play worth they’re $18M. They just have to play better than Soriano.

If it wasn't for the injuries, we'd be printing WS tickets right now.

by tharr on Sep 2, 2011 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Actually, give the political dynamics...

the LF replacement would need to play markedly better to justify a trade.

by Damen Jackson on Sep 2, 2011 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hell

if you bring in the political ramifications wouldn’t even venture a guess. However, a new GM would be exempt from that influence for the first few years, wouldn’t (s)he?

If it wasn't for the injuries, we'd be printing WS tickets right now.

by tharr on Sep 2, 2011 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly and rec'd...

I’ll take a team of egotistical, arrogant SOBs, who are in contention EVERY year, over a clubhouse full of baby huggers and boy scouts who finish 20 games under .500 and 20 games out every year…without a doubt.

You know life is good when you hear "Die Hard 5" is in production. Yippee ki-yay, &%^##(&(#&%-ers !

by Easy Ed on Sep 2, 2011 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

In other words...

…give me 25 guys from the Dennis Rodman mold.

You know life is good when you hear "Die Hard 5" is in production. Yippee ki-yay, &%^##(&(#&%-ers !

by Easy Ed on Sep 2, 2011 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

There is a middleground.

No one has to say “I want a team of boy scouts” or “I want a team of assholes.”

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 2, 2011 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

Give me a team like the Yankees of '77 & '78...

…they absolutely despised most one another…but, could they play ball!! I think it was Lombardi who said …“Winning isn’t everything…it’s the ONLY thing”.

You know life is good when you hear "Die Hard 5" is in production. Yippee ki-yay, &%^##(&(#&%-ers !

by Easy Ed on Sep 2, 2011 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

But Thurmon Munson and Lou weren't Dennis Rodman.

And, having read ‘The Bronx is Burning’, those guys didn’t all hate each other. There were just certain guys who didn’t get along.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 2, 2011 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

How about a team full of guys like maddox, mattingly, Sandberg, lee

0% bullshit 100% baseball! Barney seems to fit that mold a little bit, without those guys talent obviously.

Marilyn Monroe "yogi your a pretty cool guy"
Berra " Marilyn you ain't so hot yourself"!

by Notsnud on Sep 2, 2011 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

It's worth noting ...

that other than Maddux, the guys you mentioned didn’t play on consistent winners.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 2, 2011 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

Good point

Marilyn Monroe "yogi your a pretty cool guy"
Berra " Marilyn you ain't so hot yourself"!

by Notsnud on Sep 2, 2011 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

"the Dennis Rodman mold"

You really want a team made up of 25 one-dimensional, psychologically troubled role players?

by MN exile on Sep 2, 2011 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ed's exaggerating for effect, I think.

I’d like to know for sure.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 2, 2011 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

Correction...

one-dimensional, psychologically troubled Hall of Fame players?

You know life is good when you hear "Die Hard 5" is in production. Yippee ki-yay, &%^##(&(#&%-ers !

by Easy Ed on Sep 2, 2011 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

A team full of Dennis Rodman's ...

would implode.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 2, 2011 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah...you're probably right...

…sigh…God I miss the Bulls 3peat team Pt. 2, of the late ’90s. The first 3peat was great, but, nothing like the 2nd one.
The Bulls of the late 90s and the beginning of the “Steroid Era” in baseball. A great time to be a sports fan. (I threw that in there just for you, el)

You know life is good when you hear "Die Hard 5" is in production. Yippee ki-yay, &%^##(&(#&%-ers !

by Easy Ed on Sep 2, 2011 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

Jerk. ;)

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 2, 2011 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

lol

You know life is good when you hear "Die Hard 5" is in production. Yippee ki-yay, &%^##(&(#&%-ers !

by Easy Ed on Sep 2, 2011 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not on the court

Rodman was all business during business hours.

If it wasn't for the injuries, we'd be printing WS tickets right now.

by tharr on Sep 2, 2011 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, that's just pig ignorant

The only thing 25 Dennis Rodman’s would do is invent an STD that would kill all of humanity.

"It's all in the game, yo"

by Worf on Sep 2, 2011 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

BABIP

I get it, and I like the metric… but not in the same way others do. I tend to think that it is less of a “luck” attribute, and more of a “not hitting the ball solidly” attribute. Hitting slow rollers to second (paging Aaron Miles) does not make one unlucky. It means one’s hands are not coming through the inside half of the zone properly.

At the beginning of the year, Castro had a BABIP of like 3 trillion, but it was because he hit line drives up the middle EVERY SINGLE AT BAT and didn’t swing and miss for almost a month. Not because bloopers were falling in and balls were sneaking through holes.

"We're young and dumb and ready to go throw strikes." James Russell

by PacificCub on Sep 2, 2011 10:58 AM CDT reply actions  

Interesting point.

I’ve wondered if there’s also something about how certain guys hit the ball. Somebody like Carlos Pena has almost no ability to go the opposite way (hence the exaggerated shift). Should BABIP be evaluated for Pena the same way it’s looked at for a guy who has the ability to hit to all fields?

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 2, 2011 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think someone wrote something about that a while back

memory is a bit fuzzy… too many nitrogen bubbles in the brain.

"We're young and dumb and ready to go throw strikes." James Russell

by PacificCub on Sep 2, 2011 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

You're very correct.

That’s why the best predictor of a player’s BABIP is their career BABIP, not the league average.

Pitchers, for instance, tend to have BABIPs in the high .100s because they rarely hit line drives. However, any hitter good enough to fight through the minors will almost invariably have a BABIP in the range of .250 to .350.

There are a good number of determinates of BABIP: speed, a hitter’s profile (like what elgato was saying about Pena), and also whether they’re “on” or not — like Castro was earlier this year.

With the “on” players, they may not be lucky, but we also know they are not capable of sustaining that high BABIP. So lucky is not the right word form them, maybe locked in is more appropriate.

At the same time though, if Soraino still has his speed from 2010 (which seems plausible) and is still hitting the same distribution of liners, flies, and grounders as 2010 (he’s actually hitter a better distribution this year), then we should expect he can still find a .300 BABIP.

A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Sep 2, 2011 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

And, actually, that's a good argument to trade him NOW.

It’s possible that another team could see what you’re suggesting and figure Soriano has a good year left in him. That, plus some money from the Cubs, might sway an AL team to take a flyer on him as a DH.

But Soriano will be 37 years old on Opening Day 2013 — with $36 million left on his deal.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Sep 2, 2011 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Excellent info

thanks – I think that’s a great way to look at it.

"We push bunt, we squeeze bunt, we hit and run, we steal home!" - Larry Cox (I think...) on the 1989 NL East Champion Chicago Cubs

by PacificCub on Sep 2, 2011 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

There are so many many

things that affect BAbip that I’m reluctant to give it my seal of approval. HR are excluded, Are pitchers changing the way they’re attacking the hitter? Is the hitter trying to pull everything?

Soriano seldom sees anything inside. For the past number of years, he’s been thrown sliders down and away. Yet he still tries to pull those pitches and usually grounds out weakly. His LD% is down along with his BB. That alone has lowered his BAbip. It’s hard for me to expect a bounce in his numbers until he makes an adjustment in his approach at the plate. Until he accepts right field hitting as an option, and with the burden of aging and reduced speed, I jsu don’t see an improvement.

If it wasn't for the injuries, we'd be printing WS tickets right now.

by tharr on Sep 2, 2011 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Broken, but useful?

In a word, NO.

"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Sep 2, 2011 12:16 PM CDT reply actions  

No problem, mate!

I figured for anyone who has watched Cubs baseball at all over the last three years, this was more than enough analysis to contribute to the conversation.

"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Sep 2, 2011 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wow... you really operate like a petulant child, don't you?

I’ve not been familiar with your work up until now. I have now taken it upon myself to mock you. Enjoy.

"It's all in the game, yo"

by Worf on Sep 2, 2011 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm having a very difficult time

seeing someone in the system who could give equivalent production right now, or a pending free agent so reasonably priced that trading Soriano away (with cash incentives) would be best the best available move.

By my estimation, it’s probably a season early to talk about shipping him out. If all goes well with prospect development next season, the Cubs can either eat what should be 20 mil or so, and find a soft landing spot in the AL for him, or thank him for his time, and waive him. As for what’s in store for next season, I’m just going to cross my fingers, and hope enough luck breaks to keep him around a .800 OPS. Overpriced production, to be sure, but I’ve seen worse.

by Damen Jackson on Sep 2, 2011 1:59 PM CDT reply actions  

Yeah, I'm pretty sure there'd be a drop off production-wise in trading him no matter what.

Of course, if we DFA him, I imagine it’s because he become an utter turd and the team improves without him.

So if the the 2012 team can’t reach the playoffs, then it’s time to start thinking trades.

A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Sep 2, 2011 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Estimate what his value will be next year

then compare that to what his replacement’s value would be. That’s really the only meaningful way to make a decision on Soriano. The $54M is already a fixed liability.

If it wasn't for the injuries, we'd be printing WS tickets right now.

by tharr on Sep 2, 2011 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is my conclusion as well

Unfortunately coming to this conclusion requires critical thinking, while “Soriano sucks, Hendry should never have signed him, lets get rid of him” requires none.

And honestly if we are going to talk about “Kool-aid” drinking, people that believe that Colvin or Campana have the potential to be everyday players are really the ones that are deluding themselves. I’d say it’s more likely that Soriano bounces back to a degree that he can be traded for something (obviously eating all or most of his salary) than that Colvin performs to the level of an everyday corner OF .

by JSB on Sep 2, 2011 4:26 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Still productive makes this the time to move him - once he really hits the skids the team won't even get salary relief

What seems to be missing in this discussion is that in the NL, Soriano has to play in the field to have any value. Based on his recent progression, in the near future he will be like Vlad Guerrero. For the Cubs, that makes him a high-price Darryl Ward, without the ability to fill in at 1B.

by ClarkFan on Sep 2, 2011 8:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Keep him around

Shame on the Cubs for not putting a ML lineup out there for the last two years. He is old and needs protection.. I would bet, that if traded to a stacked team, we would all be slapping our collective foreheads as he hits line drive homers at an amazing rate. Look to improve elsewhere please.

There goes one over the fence...a Tru-Link fence.

by truelinkfence on Sep 2, 2011 9:35 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

you wont

get anything for him and you,ll pay most of his contract.and still nobody wants him. i would try the angels.someone might take him for 5 mill a year.

by NOMAR on Sep 3, 2011 7:28 AM CDT reply actions  

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