What's happening with second base?
Will the Cubs really play Barney all season? There don't seem to be many options out there, especially with good defense. It seems strange to me that Theo and Jed haven't commented at all about the position this offseason, at least not that I've seen.
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There weren't a lot of options
I was in favor of trying to get Jed Lowrie but that ship sailed when the Astros got him.
Other than that, I don’t know there were any options that were better than Barney. Turnover was minimal this offseason. Most teams were set and the FA options were all light-hitting backups.
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on Jan 11, 2012 7:29 PM CST reply actions
And Barney's short comings as a hitter
are magnified by the pedestrian line-up around him. If the Cubs had a stronger overall line-up, he’d be fine as an 8 hitter.
I don’t remember which thread it was… but we talked a bit about Barney and why he “had to be replaced”.
His OPS of .666 certainly isn’t very good. But I think of two things. One, he really wore down at the end of the season. Given his work ethic, you would assume he comes into this season better able to handle the rigors of the season.
Second, just look at his basic slash line: .276/.313/.353. If he gets like 1 more hit a month, while drawing 2 more walks a month and smacks, say, 4 more doubles for the season (not a lot to ask, I’d think, particularly with more stamina)… he pushes up to a .700 OPS. Still not great (and certainly upgradeable), but with very strong defense and good baserunning at basically a league minimum salary……. the Cubs have a lot bigger holes than 2B, IMO.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
basically Barney is Theriot Party Deux in many ways
he is better in the field and running the bases, but i would not say he is a huge upgrade. His minimal salary is the biggest plus
Q: Why did Theo Epstein cross the road?
A: To Dump Garza
For as long as he's cost controlled
Barney was a 1-2 WAR player last year (depending on your measure). He’s probably not going to do substantially more than that. But as long as he’s a cost-controlled player, he has value.
Basically, he’s one of several positions at which we get less than average offensive value. But he’s cheap and he plays a position at which it’s hard to add offensive value. So I agree – there are better/easier ways to get better.
Eventually, I’d like to see us produce a better weapon at 2B. But for now, I’m okay with him for what he is. As soon as he gets to his later arbitration years, though, I’ll be ready to see him go.
Agreed all around.
With Cubbie-Tim, too. He and Theriot are pretty similar offensively, though Barney clearly has more defensive and baserunning value.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Hopefully, it's Torreyes.
But long way to go there, obviously.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
Must have been tough for him, growing up...
…what with all the other kids calling him “Torreyes” all the time.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
OK, took me a few seconds...but I got it.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
Nope.
He’s playing Left Field.
by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Jan 11, 2012 11:44 PM CST up reply actions
I hear this season,
they’re putting it behind the mound, but in front of center field.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
I will be flamed for this, and it would never happen....
But if we end up stuck with soriano, and his defense being horrible regardless of position, I’d do whatever I could to get him back at second where his bat is more valuable and keep Barney off the field full time. It would also would free up an outfield spot, replacing Barney’s bat for someone who could put up 10 to 15 homers (Jackson cough)
His knees just won't allow it.
He was terrible at 2B before he became the slowest and creakiest thirty something in human history. Now he can barely move.
I agree that in theory, the godawful Soriano contract wouldn’t be quite so rough if he could play a more premium defensive position. But a bad LF just hurts a lot less than a bad 2B.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 11, 2012 8:34 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Theo likes good defense.
Not horrific defense.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
soriano playing 2b?
Just wee-un.
by jesus christos on Jan 11, 2012 8:48 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Chi McBride might do
the best “OH, HELL NO!” in show-business. Also, putting a second bad glove up the middle of our infield after stocking up on pitchers with high gb rates might not be the best idea.
Haven't you seen that
we have a new GM and Front Office? They actually believe defense matters. Imagine that.
John Grabow - Who will pay you $4.8 million in 2012?
And seriously
can you picture Soriano turning a double play?
John Grabow - Who will pay you $4.8 million in 2012?
Well, he does hop rather well.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
It appears you avoided the flames.
That you really, really “deserved”.
Damn. I missed both Castro threads.
As a fan of both geetars and whiskey...
…I urge you to retract this suggestion and, in turn, we shall all agree to never speak of it again.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
Does it matter?
Not to be insensitive to the ST holders, but I’m much more interested in the question: who plays 2B in 2012? 2013?
Does Baez project as a future 2B possibility? Could he push Castro off SS? Handle 3B? Way too soon to guess?
D98 mistaken, a hyperbole as in a funny or revisionism as in trying to make a new fact to confirm a prejudice
baez is going to 3B eventually
he’s too big for SS
Just wee-un.
by jesus christos on Jan 11, 2012 9:47 PM CST up reply actions
Ehhhhhhhh...
I wouldn’t put much weight behind the “too big for SS” arguments unless a guy is a legitimate behemoth. Baez is listed at 6’ 180 pounds, meaning he’s listed as 10 pounds lighter than Starlin Castro. Troy Tulowitzki, one of the better defensive shortstops in baseball, is 6’3 215 pounds. Jhonny Peralta, Alcides Escobar, and Elvis Andrus are all bigger than Baez and are considered plus defenders.
Unless Baez turns into a blimp, it won’t be his size that moves him off of SS.
by Outshined_One on Jan 11, 2012 10:51 PM CST up reply actions
You're right on size.
There’s also reports that he doesn’t have the foot speed or quickness to stick at SS.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
not a very compelling argument
he’s not that big
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 12, 2012 7:41 AM CST up reply actions
Let me rephrase your question
Will the Cubs really play Barney – a 25 year old, 2nd+ season player with a 2.2 WAR – all season?
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
Agreed
A rebuilding Cubs got 99 problems, but 2nd base aint one.
"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra
by wrigley's ivy on Jan 11, 2012 11:07 PM CST up reply actions
I'm try to think if I can name all 99...
I keep getting stuck at 57.
by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Jan 11, 2012 11:46 PM CST up reply actions
i keep getting stuck at #12
So i you can give you can take it.
by epsilon on Jan 12, 2012 8:57 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
You have to count past your fingers
Start using your toes.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Jan 12, 2012 8:59 AM CST up reply actions
epsilon has 12 fingers?
"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
by cooliogirl47 on Jan 12, 2012 9:08 AM CST up reply actions
I wonder if he uses a
mitt to hide the problem.
♪ He held me very tight under stars so bright and whispered darlin' "Who do you love tonight?" I told him "baseball, baseball...." ♫
no one got that joke? you people are in an offseason slump...
So i you can give you can take it.
by epsilon on Jan 12, 2012 9:43 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Oh I got it.
I just thought Risky’s was even funnier.
♪ He held me very tight under stars so bright and whispered darlin' "Who do you love tonight?" I told him "baseball, baseball...." ♫
by katie casey on Jan 12, 2012 10:48 AM CST up reply actions
Not meant to be.
I said “even funnier” which suggests I thought yours was funny too. ;-)
♪ He held me very tight under stars so bright and whispered darlin' "Who do you love tonight?" I told him "baseball, baseball...." ♫
duh....I didn't....very clever :)
"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
by cooliogirl47 on Jan 12, 2012 10:50 AM CST up reply actions
I missed that, like Soriano missed that ball
That ivy deserves a better outfielder.
Any way to pan up and say hi to Al? Someday.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Jan 12, 2012 11:03 AM CST up reply actions
when i was searching for a picture i just wanted one of soriano with a 12
but i found this picture. its awesome!
So i you can give you can take it.
Sorry - I just figured you were Antonio Alfonseca...
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
When I've cited Baseball Reference, someone says I should use fangraphs
Given the Cubs current direction, the best choice is a young, cost-controlled player with the potential to be an average MLB second baseman.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Jan 12, 2012 8:59 AM CST up reply actions
Oh yes, your point stands either way
I don’t know why the two sites differ so much on certain players.
Anyway, it wouldn’t surprise me if the current regime sees Barney the way you describe him, but it has surprised me that they haven’t come out and said this offseason that he will be given a full shot at the starting job, or that they really like his defense, or much of anything about him. Personally, I think he has more value to a team as a SS, and that won’t be with the Cubs, eventually. If there were other second basemen out there to be acquired, I don’t think Epstein and Hoyer would have any hesitation to trade him to someone who needs a SS.
It still could be the Cubs...
if Castro keeps throwing the ball in the dirt or the seats.
And, no, I’m not saying MOVECASTRONOW… just that it might be a consideration in the not terribly distant future.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Sure, why not.
That makes him a league average player, which pretty much describes most of the guys on the team at this point.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
IIRC Barney had to go on the DL.....
and I’m not sure he was ever 100% healthy when he came off. Maybe his stats can improve. I really like him, as he just seems to play good fundamental baseball.
That is something Theo values
Barney stays at second until they have a better option. The intangables are important.
I don’t want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it.
by cub in louies nest on Jan 12, 2012 3:13 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Blake and Barney..
They’re not necessarily the future, but they are it until the Cubs can find value at the position. They are not building to win next year, so that’s who we got.
by DisCUBbobulated on Jan 12, 2012 4:43 AM CST reply actions
Middle infielders are getting few and far between
We’re going to see a lot more all glove no bat middle infielders in the future.there aren’t a lot of great hitting middle infield prospects coming up for anybody.
by subtle on Jan 12, 2012 6:54 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Baker can play against lefties
that could help our 2b’s pop, and i also like barney. He is small, aggressive, and already 25, but (and this might sound cliched) he is absolutely a winner. I was in Oregon at the U of O when he led the OSU beavers to 2 CWS titles back-to-back. He carried those teams and there is something to be said for that and his character is impeccable.
I know he doesn’t necessarily project well, but i would not be surprised if he sticks for a while purely because he is so competitive. Also, he looks/acts/bats/does everything exactly like Jeter haha (he is known as the Jeter of college ball)
"I'll play any day. I don't care if I'm 0-for-30, playing baseball is my PASSION. I'll go out and play." - Geo Soto
well then its a shame the Cubs can't play in the College World Series.
So i you can give you can take it.
haha yeah
I def don’t see him as a permanent solution, but he’s got some nice intangibles that’s all
"I'll play any day. I don't care if I'm 0-for-30, playing baseball is my PASSION. I'll go out and play." - Geo Soto
I foresee Baker playing third against lefties
at least most of the time. Stewart struggles against them.
I wish that translated better
Colvin was a CWS stud … and Theriot/Fontenot were key parts of a dominant LSU team. So it doesn’t necessarily predict greatness, but you’re right, it can’t hurt.
by Orval Overall on Jan 12, 2012 9:20 AM CST up reply actions
Well from the looks of the translation...
The Rockies will win the WS this year. Theriot / ring? Check. Fontenot / ring? Check.
This says more about the Cubs. We don’t know how to utilize the “winners” we have throughout our organization.
"Beisbol been berry berry good to me." -Tony Oliva
Point taken...
…but I think players become “winners” mostly because of the teams they are on, which contribute to championships more than their individual efforts.
Some guys are lucky in their careers and get to play on a lot of “good teams” and many of those guys get a lable of being; “winners”. IMO, that label is sometimes overused.
Theo and Jed are working on building something from the ground up that will put each player in the best position to contribute to a championship, because of the overall, not from one or two guys having won championships in a previous life.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I am on board with TheoJed with the steps they are taking.
Relying on a players past triumphs like college world series victories is not how the team will be run from now on. They are emphasizing, for this upcoming season at least, paying for a player whose track record shows they are better players than their most recent season in MLB. These players are low risk on a bad team, but if they perform to their norms, could help produce a competitive team.
I love that TheoJed are building the Cubs from the foundation up. Hendry bought the luxurious bell tower and placed it on top of an adobe hut.
"Beisbol been berry berry good to me." -Tony Oliva
Hendry did what he did...
…because that was all he knew and simply didn’t have the skill or patience to build an organization for long term success.
There were so many signs of this over the years, that it was a shame it was let go as long as it was. It is all water under the bridge now, and time to start building this thing from the ground up.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I think...
…Theo and Jed have “bigger fish to fry” and they will eventually get to 2nd base. It may not be until next year, but they will get to it.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Blake DeWitt isn’t a popular man, but his numbers are pretty comparable to Barney’s last year:
2011 season:
Barney – .276/.313/.353 (.666 OPS) – in 570 PA
DeWitt – .265/.305/.413 (.718 OPS) – in 243 PA
DeWitt’s numbers are also dragged down by his ugly pinch-hitting numbers – .219/.275/.328 (69 PA)
He’s left handed (which seems to be popular this off-season) and is only 3 months older than Barney so does Barney really have a comfortable lead to a starting spot?
by MadHatterBlues on Jan 12, 2012 10:31 AM CST reply actions
Given Theo/Jed's stated preference for defense, I would think yes.
But the decision will also be largely Sveum’s, I’d think.
DeWitt isn’t atrocious defensively… but Barney is clearly the better defender and runner.
DeWitt has exactly one advantage on Barney and that is the bump in power.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
by fsuapollo on Jan 12, 2012 10:36 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Dewitt was atrocious for a while there last season
at the start of the year. He looked like he’d never played second before.
Is it too early
To give up on Barney? If he could re-produce his first half of the season, even without power, that still makes him a pretty useful asset, no? As someone above suggested, he was on the DL for a while, its possible he wasn’t 100% for the remainder of the season when his performance dragged his numbers down.
The Theriot comparisons are apt.
Barney is a GOOD ENOUGH player while he’s cheap, when the team has to commit resources elsewhere and when he can hit eighth (or when he’s not asked to hit higher on a team with postseason aspirations).
Barney might end up being more valuable than Theriot for a longer period of time because Barney is quite good defensively at second and at short. He’s more valuable to the Cubs because he makes the bench a little deeper.
But Barney, at the plate, is like a lighter hitting version of Theriot. Neither have any power or patience, and Theriot was (is?) better at slapping singles. Of course, Barney isn’t a bad baserunner.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Barney, at least, appears to be a smart baseball player
That counts for something.
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I'm a Barney fan
He plays smart. He’s aggressive on the base paths. He is a good defensive player. I want more at the plate, but, he’s worth keeping around until a better option becomes available. And, I think if he’s really dedicating himself to conditioning this off season we may see more consistency. That’s always the first big hurdle for young players. The difference in playing a full MLB season over playing minor league or college ball.
Thing is ...
Barney’s not all that young. If he were 21, then maybe you could argue that he hasn’t developed all his strength. He’s 25. Now, maybe he never fully recovered from being hurt — but if he wasn’t conditioned enough for the rigors of a full season at 24, after several years in the minors …
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Not surprising... but Barney expects to have to compete for the 2B job.
Caution: Paul Sullivan article ahead
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Right -- it's not surprising.
If he said anything else, he could get himself into trouble.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
And to Barney's credit
he won the competition last spring. DeWitt and/or Baker had the inside track but Barney outplayed them.
You have to give Barney props for succeeding but there is minimal upside from last season. Of course, his late season swoon could have been related to injury and/or the long season but part of it was also likely pitchers adjusting to him. He needs to make adjustments in return. See Tyler Colvin for an example of pitchers catching up to a hitter.
John Grabow - Who will pay you $4.8 million in 2012?
I agree there's limited upside... and that's part of the reason I don't see Barney sliding back.
He doesn’t have any crater size holes in his swing. He’s just frankly not as physically talented as many other hitters. So he kind of boils down to a modified version of the annoying phrase: “he is what he is”.
If he could increase his BB total, he’d be a perfectly serviceable 2B during his cost controlled years.
Of course, I’m also fine if they ship him out of town. My fiancee gets all googly-eyed when she seems him.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
I'd honestly like to see what Jeff Baker could do at second base with regular at-bats
I know he’s not going to set the world on fire, but we seem to have criminally misused him since he got here.
Of course, that could have been because he’s crappy……
For some fans, Kerry Wood is that dollap of pumpkin paste.
The man can hit LHP.
Thus, as part of a platoon (3B?) he might be useful.
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How has he been criminally misused?
I’m too lazy to check the numbers, but it seems like he’s mainly faced left-handed pitching (which is his strength) and been used as a backup at second, third and first bases. I’m sure if you asked Jeff, he’d say he wants to be a starting player. But I don’t feel like we missed out on much not giving him that chance. A platoon of him and Ian Stewart at third this coming season could actually be fairly productive.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
Well, if my memory serves, there were times both under Lou and Quade where he'd literally go on a two week stretch
where he’d get like 1 at bat. Then he’d get sent up against a rightie in the ninth inning and ground out weekly. Then he’d go another week without a plate appearance.
I know he can’t really hit righties, but I’ve got to think he’d be a little better if given more at-bats.
Like I said, maybe not, but if we’re going to see what player Baker can be, this would be the year
For some fans, Kerry Wood is that dollap of pumpkin paste.
by Nunyabidness on Jan 12, 2012 7:58 PM CST up reply actions
weakly, not weekly
For some fans, Kerry Wood is that dollap of pumpkin paste.
by Nunyabidness on Jan 12, 2012 7:59 PM CST up reply actions
baker is koyie hill-ian against RH pitching
Just wee-un.
by jesus christos on Jan 12, 2012 5:12 PM CST up reply actions
He's absolutely terrible vs RHP
But the man should be on the lineup card everytime there is a lefty SP.
Just not batting cleanup
For some fans, Kerry Wood is that dollap of pumpkin paste.
by Nunyabidness on Jan 12, 2012 7:59 PM CST up reply actions
Stewart doesn't have a platoon split
But until he proves something, you’d have to play Baker at 3rd for lefties even though He’s much better at 2nd. Dewitt is a better 3rd baseman than Baker, but he’s lefthanded too, so whatever.
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