Yankees, M's swap Pineda and Montero
The rich get richer, Jack Z gets dumber, and the Cubs lose a trade partner. Ugh
4 months ago
jesus christos
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Could end up being
a win-win. Montero is a potential Prince Fielder type hitter, and they can DH him forever.
I
trading a young frontline starter with 5 years of control for a DH strikes me as bad GMing 101
Just wee-un.
by jesus christos on Jan 13, 2012 6:54 PM CST up reply actions
Yes this is looks like a very bad deal for the M's
Pineda has more major league experience, is a TOR starter, and Montero doesn’t have a position.
But lets see the details.
Kinda makes me wary
that Pineda is going to end up on the DL for a while this year…
by Mulhollandmania on Jan 14, 2012 1:38 AM CST up reply actions
And another young pitcher...
rated to be the #5 in their system for Hector Noesi. This is a fail for the Mariners.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 13, 2012 8:50 PM CST up reply actions
Noesi is a top 10 Yankee prospect, too
by Mulhollandmania on Jan 14, 2012 1:39 AM CST up reply actions
Pineda was a top two Mariners pitcher, for what that's worth...
…to go with a top 5 prospect. There’s no justification for both of their inclusion in this trade unless there’s something about Pineda or Campos we don’t know. It’s baffling.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 14, 2012 2:34 AM CST up reply actions
Not really - GMs make bad trades all the time
Occam’s Razor says that the simple explanation is that Seattle’s GM is inept.
Same razor Hendry used every morning isn't it?
~Ronald Reagan has held the two most demeaning jobs in the country; President of the United States and radio broadcaster for the Chicago Cubs~ George F. Will
by unretrofied93 on Jan 14, 2012 10:40 AM CST up reply actions
If Hendry has used Occam, he would have realized
that MB was a free agent because he was crazier than a loon.
I don't think this was an inept trade
The Mariners had a lot of pitching and they needed hitting. Did they overpay? Maybe, but they got a potential impact bat—the type of guy who could win an MVP title one day. In exchange, they gave up a young potential TOR pitcher, but one who really pitched poorly down the stretch last season. On top of that, pitchers are always riskier because of injury.
The addition of Campos and Noesi means I think the the Yankees got the better end of this deal, but I don’t think this was any sort of highway robbery.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 14, 2012 1:30 PM CST up reply actions
I don't either...
but it’s not the kind of trade Jack Z’s been pulling off in his tenure as Mariners GM. He’s usually the guy getting a little extra in a trade. His last couple (Bedard to Boston, Fister to Detroit) haven’t turned out that way. Jury’s way out on this one, obviously.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 14, 2012 2:38 PM CST up reply actions
He's far, far, far from inept.
Though it’s weird that I can’t remember when I could say the Cubs might have a GM better than or equal to the Mariners GM, so that’s a happy thing.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 14, 2012 2:39 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think you can say it's a clear win for the Yankees
Depends on what other prospects are in the deal. And Montero could be a beast, and Pineda get hurt, like pitchers often do.
Campos is good.
Really good. This was bad for the mariners, who have to watch a DH try to catch and hit right-handed in a park which is death to righties.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 13, 2012 8:51 PM CST up reply actions
I don't know
Montero is probably the 3rd best hitting prospect in all of baseball, after Trout and Harper. The Mariners have one of the deepest pools of high-end pitching in baseball. They traded from a position of strength to fill a position of huge need with a truly difference-making bat.
Sure, they could’ve signed Fielder and kept Pineda, but if they had concerns over Fielder declining over couldn’t afford his asking price, then this could work out for them. They have openings at both catcher and DH, so if he can’t field they can move him.
On a balance sheet the Mariners might have come out a little behind, but I think they potentially make their team better for the long-term.
And because of those positional openings
I wouldn’t say they are absolutely out on Fielder. They still have $ and still need more offense.
Though if I missed something more “official” that Seattle would be out… then just scratch all that.
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by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Well I forgot about Smoak and Carp, so the M's probably are out on Fielder.
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by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
I don't think giving up Pineda for Montero is bad at all.
I think giving up Campos in the deal is bad.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 14, 2012 2:40 PM CST up reply actions
Well that's likely one less suitor for Garza.
Although there have been conflicting reports on the Yankees’ interest.
I wonder how this will affect Detroit/Boston. Seeing the Yankees upgrade their rotation may cause one of them to step up their pursuit of Garza.
by Naveen Nallappa on Jan 13, 2012 7:02 PM CST reply actions
No...
in fact, the Mariners threw in a bit more.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 13, 2012 8:51 PM CST up reply actions
Dear lord this deal is terrible for the Ms.
They need to call the police and report a theft, and hope the Yankees have a good return policy.
Let me preface by saying I hate this idea only slightly less,
but they should have just given $21m to Fielder and kept Pineda… and/or traded him for a lot, lot more.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 13, 2012 9:13 PM CST up reply actions
Pineda alone should've returned a package close to what Latos got...
I understand the FB rate is a concern, but holy hell. Claiming Montero is worth a TOR starter and your #5 prospect that’s a solid B is mind blowing.
His shoulder is the bigger concern.
I think Z sees something in Noesi he likes a lot. That’s the only way I can justify it. I just don’t understand the Campos part.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 13, 2012 10:11 PM CST up reply actions
I'm assuming you mean elbow?
That was 3 years ago, and he’s had no issues since. It’s tough to call a 1 time injury a major concern…
Maybe I mean elbow...
either way, I watched them baby and coddle him all last year because of it. Not that they were wrong to do so, but it still had me concerned all year, while they wasted a year of his service time on a 95 loss team. (sound familiar?) It’s not like he has a huge track record of success, as brilliant as he was last year in limited innings. One year, he’s throwing 45 IP in A+ ball, two years later he’s throwing 170+ IP in the majors. It was a meteoric rise, if I’ve ever seen one.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 14, 2012 2:39 AM CST up reply actions
I'm confused... either they babied and coddled him...
Or they pushed his innings up from 45 to 170. I don’t think it can be both.
And yes, they were very aggressive with him.
He didn't go from 45 to 170 in one year.
The important part of that statement was the level where he pitched, not the amount, not the amount of innings he pitched. If they hadn’t babied and coddled him, he would have had significantly more innings last year and pitched much deeper into games. They also gave him significant time between starts, including running out a 6-man rotation at the end of the season after they were well out of contention. He only went from 140 IP in 2010 in AA/AAA to 170 IP in 2011 in MLB. That’s not a big jump considering it came with 3 more starts… but in watching the games and following him, it was frustrating the way they were using him.
They were only quasi in contention because of the way he pitched in the first place. If that was all they were going to do, they shouldn’t have started him in the big leagues in the first place. They had other options at the time, which is why it made no sense to waste a year of service time when they weren’t winning to go all out to win. (I’m talking more about improvements to the rest of the team, not in how they used Pineda.) Now, it’s a moot point because they ended up trading him anyway to a team that could care less about players’ service times… but it was a really dumb move by the Mariners last year.
Did you ever watch his games last year? He’s going to be amazing if he develops any semblance of a changeup and avoids any further injury to his arm.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 14, 2012 2:36 PM CST up reply actions
It's pretty common to only increase around 30-40 innings per year...
It’s not babying, it’s smart coaching.
Far from the point...
if they were going to handle him that way, and not improve the team enough to contend with or without him, there was no point to bringing him north with the team out of spring training. All they did was waste a year of his service time in a 95 loss season. He’s an even more valuable asset in a trade, if they just wait until June. It’s what they did with Dustin Ackley, and it would have made the same sense to do it with Pineda. Their dichotomy shows why their GM almost lost his job last year, even though he had done a fantastic job managing the talent available to him up to that point.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 15, 2012 12:18 AM CST up reply actions
Mariners got Noesi
the Yankees got Campos.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 13, 2012 9:02 PM CST up reply actions
And Campos has a massive ceiling as well...
Noesi is probably a back of the rotation type of pitcher.
On a separate note..
This would impact Fielder more than Garza. Scott Boras must be throwing up right now!
Or calling Cashman.
Montero also isn’t a 1B, he’s a DH, so it shouldn’t change anything.
True
But it would be harder for Boras to now sell the Ms on an 8- or 10-year deal for Fielder by telling them they could use him as a DH if his fielding declines, if the Ms think they already have their DH for the future.
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by Julio Zuleta's Voodoo on Jan 13, 2012 8:04 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I think Boras needs to get it through his head...
…that it’s down to 2 teams…Nationals AND Rangers. And if the Rangers sign Darvish, I believe they’ll drop out of Fielder bidding. Which leaves the Nats, and unless Fielder wants to sit out a year, I think the Nats will get him for 5 years and $125M. Nobody is gonna give him a Pujols’ deal, I don’t believe.
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Might sound crazy
But i heard the Cubs will still sign him if it’s on their terms. The market is totally dead and he might sign with anyone giving 5 years.
Rizzo might have the ability to play left field or the Cubs could trade Fielder in a year if Rizzo looked capable. You might even get a couple of nice prospects.
Or you could turn around and package Rizzo for a TOR starter
For some fans, Kerry Wood is that dollap of pumpkin paste.
by Nunyabidness on Jan 13, 2012 9:45 PM CST up reply actions
The idea is
that Fielder doesn’t like any other offers and comes to the Cubs and says he’ll take three years and $70 million. That way he gets to go back on the market when he’s still young.
I think the odds of this happening are really long.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 14, 2012 12:06 AM CST up reply actions
Boras would rip out his own tongue
and still make the offer if he thought it was the best deal.
But as I said, I really, really doubt that Fielder will get that desperate.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 14, 2012 1:33 PM CST up reply actions
bet theo's glad he won't have to deal with the yankees anymore
Just wee-un.
by jesus christos on Jan 13, 2012 7:30 PM CST up reply actions
and does anyone know what it would take to pry hughes from the yankees?
Just wee-un.
by jesus christos on Jan 13, 2012 7:47 PM CST up reply actions
Hughes value has dropped significantly
He also only has 2 years of control left. He couldn’t be worth more than a couple mid prospects
I had the idea
that Montero was “off the table”.
I guess not. I wonder if they now add Prince. SEA needs to load up to even scratch at that division now.
Hey! I caught the 3rd Castro thread!!
Yup, so much for the "untouchable" label
I'm wet nurse to a last-place, dead-to-the-neck-up ball club, and I'm choking to death!
They never said he was off the table
they offered him for Cliff Lee last season, but the Mariners wanted Smoak more. Now they have both.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 13, 2012 8:51 PM CST up reply actions
Then they could have Pineda and Montero too.
Sounds much better to me than Montero and Smoak.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 13, 2012 8:53 PM CST up reply actions
Oh yeah. I did not recall that.
I meant the pulse of this year’s discussion though. It seemed he was not someone we could have asked for. Not sure what we’d have done with him, but still surprised to see the Yankees let him go.
Hey! I caught the 3rd Castro thread!!
Why do people think Montero was a fit for the Cubs?
He’s a DH plain and simple.
They think like Jim Hendry?
Defense is secondary?
John Grabow - Who will pay you $4.8 million in 2012?
Even Jose Campos is a good pickup!
A 19 yo who throws high heat. He was a top 5 prospect in the M’s system. Compare that to the 25yo pitcher M’s got and this deal seems to be really favoring Yankees on paper.
Montero can hit
like a mad man but now goes to a horrible park to hit. I bet his agent is not happy.
They just signed Kuroda also.
Burnett is more expendable than ever and Soriano would have a chance to DH. This is the highest possibility for a bad contract swap.
就是今年！
It's the perfect storm really
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 13, 2012 10:12 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think so.
The Yankees also signed Andruw Jones so I see no interest in Soriano. If the Yanks move Burnett, it would be with cash to make him go away ala Zambrano and the Cubs. $33 million left for Burnett is a big chunk of money.
John Grabow - Who will pay you $4.8 million in 2012?
If Pineda would have gotten Montero...
Garza would have easily nabbed him, but realistically, 1.) We have Soto, or at least for one more year depending on his performance, and 2.) Working with Montero would be like working with Mauer. He’s a big chap, and eventually you’d have to move him somewhere away from catcher, that somewhere would be first base, and we have LeHair and Rizzo for that.
Interesting trade from the Mariners, and considering a possible move to 1st/DH for Montero eventually, you’d have to think that they’re out of the race for Fielder, leaving just the Nationals and the Rangers, Fielder and Boras are in Dallas today actually.
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Naw he's not that big of a guy actually...
But in the effort to preserve a power hitter who’s a catcher, you would probably have to move him to 1st or DH him
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No...
he’s a catcher. His deficiencies there are way overblown. He has the possibilities of being Edgar Martinez good. If he has to play in the field, he’d play there. I have no problem saying the Mariners will play him at catcher, since they have absolutely nobody else to play there.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 13, 2012 10:13 PM CST up reply actions
He's still worth more if he plays the field...
even if he sucks hard at it. Miguel Olivo is also terrible defensively. He is also terrible offensively. He’s Miguel Olivo. John Jaso is also terrible defensively. He is also not so good offensively. He’s John Jaso. If the Mariners thought there was a snowball’s chance in Topeka of getting Jesus Montero, they probably don’t trade for John Jaso. There’s nobody that will keep Jesus Montero from playing catcher with the Mariners in 2012 when they already have Mike Carp and Justin Smoak waiting to play 1b and dh. I envision Jesus Montero moving off catcher when his bat proves too good to risk staying there… until then, he’s more valuable as a catcher than he is as a DH, even if he sucks at being a catcher.
Furthermore, I’m not going to discount the chance that he was only complacent at working at his catching skills because the Yankees system didn’t see much room for him to stay at catcher with Posada (and now Martin) in front of him and Romine and Sanchez behind him. With the Mariners, that might change since all of their possible catching prospects are at least 3 years off, and they are trading for him to man the position right now. Piazza was right handed in pitcher’s park… was a bad defensive catcher… and stayed at catcher for a long, long time. Montero can too.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 14, 2012 2:32 AM CST up reply actions
From what I hear
Montero makes Miguel Olivo look like Pudge Rodriguez behind the plate.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 14, 2012 2:59 AM CST up reply actions
Haha, I'm not sure I'll go that far, but... yes, he's really bad.
Teams would be able to run all day on him with no real fear…
Nope.
Olivo is just horrible. Try watching him try to catch balls. If Montero could just catch the ball, he’d be better than Miguel Olivo.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 14, 2012 2:42 PM CST up reply actions
They won't be in so much of a hole when Hultzen and Paxton and Walker make the majors.
They also signed a Japanese pitcher for peanuts to fill out their rotation. They’re not a contender with Texas and Los Angeles so good right now, so they can afford to play the waiting game.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 14, 2012 2:43 PM CST up reply actions
Two problems
That’s not necessarily true on Garza. Garza is under control for two more seasons. Pineda for five. That gives Pineda more value although if I’m the Yankees, I prefer Garza. Still, I’m not the Yankees. And they also got Campos, who has a very high upside.
The other problem is that Montero is a terrible catcher and has no interest, from all accounts, of being a good one. He’s a DH. The Cubs could stick him at first base and hope for the best, but his defense from all accounts is horrific. The Mariners, on the other hand, have a need for a DH.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 14, 2012 12:11 AM CST up reply actions
Yanks definitely won this deal, IMO.
I’d probably have considered it a win for them in a straight up Montero-Pineda not even factoring in Campos-Noesi. Clear win for Yanks.
Only concern for me is Pineda's fly ball tendencies, which he might improve on.
Still a win for the evil empire, IMO
So Yankees won the deal?
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Inclusion of Campos seals it.
Montero’s special, but not the kind of special the Yankees can’t replace by throwing a lot of money at the problem. And it’s not like they have a problem doing that.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 14, 2012 2:41 AM CST up reply actions
Hard to figure what the Mariners were thinking
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
Gin and tonic, I'm guessing.
In massive quantities. Oh, you said thinking.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
They were thinking
They’ve got a lot of pitching but very good hitting. They’ve got Hultzen who will probably slide into the rotation by next season at the latest. And Montero is a potential impact bat.
I don’t know why everyone thinks this is a steal. I like the Yankees part of the deal better than the Mariners, but not by a whole lot. It seems like a pretty logical trade to me.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 14, 2012 1:38 PM CST up reply actions
I'm excited to get to watch him here.
I’ll be really excited if he bucks the trend of right handed hitters who come here and fail. That part worries more than anything with Montero. If the Mariners were going to give up Pineda, I would have preferred they picked up a young left-handed hitter in a deal… especially, if they were going to include Campos.
Even the great Edgar Martinez saw his impact shrivel in SafeCo field, even in his best years. I hope Montero turns into half what Edgar Martinez was.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 14, 2012 2:48 PM CST up reply actions
I think it's a steal because I think Montero is a DH.
And trading a potential TOR starter with 5 years of service time left for a DH, no matter how good they are, is a bad trade IMO.
But I think Montero
is much, much more likely to be a middle-of-the-order hitter than Pineda is to be a TOR starter. Both are possible, but Montero is much more likely to reach that peak.
Before last season, Montero was Baseball America’s #3 prospect in all of baseball and Pineda was #16. Sure, you have to give Pineda some extra credit for spending the season in the majors, but he did wear down as the season went on.
I don’t think it’s a steal. For me, the extra prospects tilt it in the Yankees favor, but I think Pineda and Montero are pretty even. For the Mariners, they needed an impact bat a lot more than they need a TOR pitcher.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 14, 2012 5:17 PM CST up reply actions
Soriano
plus 12 or so mil a year to the Yankees makes a little more sense now. They need a DH, 6 mil a year for 3 years is pretty reasonable, and Soriano’s power could make him somewhat valuable in that park. Not playing the field could make the next 3 years go better for him as well.
Not really.
The Yankees resigned Andruw Jones. Looks like they will use him in the RH outfield/DH slot.
The Yankees apparently are interested in Carlos Pena though.
John Grabow - Who will pay you $4.8 million in 2012?
Good luck!
What do you think Soriano would fetch if he was a free agent right now? I think he would be very lucky to get 4 or 5 million on a one year deal. In fact, he might not even get an offer that good. Look at what happened to Jermaine Dye a couple of years ago at a similar age with similar performance. He got a bunch of minor league offers and wound up not playing anymore.
The Mariners have to be thinking that Montero will catch.
If he does, this could be a win for the M’s. They have a large amount of pitching in their system so I don’t see them missing Pineda.
Tom Brady. Nuff said.
they will be disappointed then
he is a DH
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 15, 2012 9:28 AM CST up reply actions
if anyone is to take soriano...
the cubs will have to eat 15 to 16 million of the 18 million owed each year . i don’t think the cubs could get so lucky as to only pay 2/3 of the remaining left . they might as well keep him if they only save 2 to 3 million .
maybe Hendry will catch on somewhere and we can dupe him into trading for Soriano
Next week!!! The 2012 Randy Hundley Cubs Fantasy camp!
with Posada leaving and Montero gone
who is catching for the Yankees? That’s the only thing I see weird about this trade. Although, Pineda could be a really solid starter for years. He is young so has a lot to learn but he’s a big guy. I think the Yankees are far more concerned about their starting rotation. Rothschild worked miracles last year and Pineda can only get better with Larry’s guidance.
my two cents.
Next week!!! The 2012 Randy Hundley Cubs Fantasy camp!
Francisco Cervelli too.
They also have Austin Romine who isn’t far from ready to help the big club.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 15, 2012 11:18 PM CST up reply actions
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