Is Jamie Moyer A Hall Of Famer?
Moyer could be making a comeback this year... with the Rockies. Does he rate HoF consideration? Written by me for Baseball Nation.
4 months ago
Al Yellon
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well then I'll reserve my right to flip-flop on my vote
when Jack Morris is voted into the HOF
until then though – and in spite of the fact JM is one of my favorites – its still a ‘no’
by doofus cubs guy on Jan 17, 2012 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
He isn't better than Morris
I understand why you think Morris isn’t HOF-worthy, or at least I think I do. But I don’t see why anyone would claim Moyer is better than Morris, except as a tongue-in-cheek argument. By every metric except wins, Morris is better than Moyer, and even there he has a higher win percentage so you can attribute it to age.
In more than 100 fewer games started, Morris has just 13 fewer wins but 18 fewer losses. He then beats Moyer (not always by very much) in ERA, ERA+, WHIP, K/9, and HRs. Moyer is better than Morris in BB/9 (and therefore also K/BB), and that’s just about it. Oh, wait, he only has 12 balks to Morris’s 27.
So…. similar pitchers? Sure, with Morris being the slightly better one. But I can’t see the argument that “he was better than Jack Morris”
by Orval Overall on Jan 17, 2012 11:55 AM CST up reply actions
The Hall of Fame should be more than just about numbers.
Moyer occupies a unique niche in MLB — being an effective rotation pitcher until almost 50 years old. That, plus the longevity, plus his career numbers, IMO make him as qualified as Morris.
It’s not the “Hall of Metrics”.
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by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2012 12:09 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Not exactly the debate I thought we were having
I agree with you on that – the numbers are relevant, not dispositive. The only reason I raised numbers was because much of the opposition to Morris is coming from statistically-minded folks who point out how much worse his numbers are than pretty much every other HOF pitcher. So when Josh says “Moyer is better than Morris” and you agreed, I assumed that was based on stats, so I wrote my response in the same way.
If you want to base it off of perceptions about the quality of pitcher, well, my memories of Morris are all towards the later end of his career, but I certainly perceived him to be a much better and more effective pitcher than I ever considered Moyer to be. And it doesn’t hurt that the stats bear that out.
by Orval Overall on Jan 17, 2012 12:19 PM CST up reply actions
Morris
… got a lot more Cy Young consideration than Moyer, and made more All-Star teams.
Morris did not pitch one inning past the age of 40 — Moyer has thrown more than 1400 moderately effective innings since then.
Also, since 1996, Moyer is 208-128 (.619) with a 4.13 ERA.
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Well hell, Tim Wakefield is a HOF'er.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 17, 2012 1:01 PM CST up reply actions
No.
Wakefield hasn’t pitched as long, or as effectively, as Moyer.
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Jesse Orosco...
Cooperstown awaits.
D98 mistaken, a hyperbole as in a funny or revisionism as in trying to make a new fact to confirm a prejudice
Ha...
Interestingly enough, that was exactly who I thought of when reading this post. Sadly, longevity is really the only case you could possibly make for either.
by Damen Jackson on Jan 17, 2012 1:49 PM CST up reply actions
But...it's the hall of FAME....
they have FAME.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 17, 2012 1:50 PM CST up reply actions
Hehe...
You know, I’ve asked myself this question before, so I can’t be too mad at Al. My thought was that given another couple of seasons, and twenty or so more wins, he might be a fringe candidate. But as it stands today? No.
by Damen Jackson on Jan 17, 2012 1:56 PM CST up reply actions
IT'S NOT THE HALL OF NUMBERS.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 17, 2012 2:01 PM CST up reply actions
It's not, but you'd just rather snark at me.
Of course numbers mean something. But induction to the Hall should not be based SOLELY on statistical events.
I’m sure you’ll find another way to snark, so go for it.
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But...the statistical events they should base some of the voting on...
should be pretty good. Moyer’s aren’t.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 17, 2012 2:19 PM CST up reply actions
I didn't initially read your article
feeling that there really was no intellectual argument for you to make. Looking through your piece though, you of all people said it best:
I’m kidding here … sort of. Jamie Moyer’s Hall of Fame credentials consist primarily of sticking around for a really long time and finding himself on several very good teams (the Mariners from 2000-03 when they won 90+ games each year, or the recent incarnations of the Phillies). He has received Cy Young votes only three times and made just one All-Star team.
Emphasis mine. Al, you really try to make the emotional argument way too often. This is probably one of those times.
by Damen Jackson on Jan 17, 2012 2:25 PM CST up reply actions
Al, I am definitely with you here.
Is Jamie Moyer able to accomplish something spectacular that no other person in this era can accomplish? If yes, then I would consider him Hall-worthy.
As it is, I am not yet ready to say Moyer is Hall-worthy but if he keeps pitching with the same quality until he is 50…in this day and age…he has my vote.
就是今年！
by CubFanInChina on Jan 17, 2012 7:46 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think that sticking around until the last dog is hung is a HOF credential
Morris did as much or more in less time. That seem more HOF worthy than racking up a sting of “not bad” seasons. And I don’t think Morris is a solid HOF candidate.
How about WAR?
Career WAR: Moyer—47.3
Career WAR: Morris—39.3
I’ll repeat: Moyer was better than Morris. They were similar value pitchers, but Moyer pitched longer.
Additionally, Morris had one season (1979) with a WAR over 5. Moyer had three (1998, 1999, 2002).
Moyer had a longer career and a higher peak. He was a better pitcher than Jack Morris.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 17, 2012 11:52 PM CST up reply actions
Those metrics are slippery
Fangraphs shows Morris with a career WAR of 56.9 with 5 years of WAR over 4.0, while it shows Moyer with career WAR of 49.0 with 2 years over 4.0. One big difference was innings/year – Morris logged many seasons with over 240 innings (up to 292), while Moyer never pitched as many as 240 innings. And, of course, Moyer never logged an extra inning shutout in the WS.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1091&position=P
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1009211&position=P
Interesting factoid about Moyer's status as career leader in HR's allowed
Moyer’s last HR given up, #511, was hit by our very own Alfonso Soriano on July 15, 2010. Ended up in my glove, so it’s kind of cool having a MLB record in my collection – at least for right now,. Something tells me that won’t last long if Moyer pitches at Coors Field this year…
btw, #510 was hit earlier that game by Derrek Lee. Here’s Moyer’s HR log on baseball-reference.com:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/event_hr.cgi?id=moyerja01&t=p
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
...
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 17, 2012 10:59 AM CST reply actions
Closed captioning is definitely appreciated.
For some reason, my computer’s audio doesn’t seem to work for these GIFs…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I love that someone older than me is still playing.
That automatically should qualify him. I say yes.
The best husband in the world is going to the 2012 Randy Hundley Cubs Fantasy camp!
There are plenty of players over the age of 21
"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love." Carl Sagan
There are a lot of memes in baseball that don't make much sense
But few that make less sense than the Jack Morris “pitching to the score” (aka “fending off disaster through superior run support”) one.
Al’s spot-on about that.
And the answer is “no”, obviously; but Al knew that already.
by Limey Cub Fan Jay on Jan 17, 2012 11:11 AM CST via mobile reply actions
No to both.
Longevity absolutely matters… and Moyer should be exceptionally commended in this category. Most people assumed he’d be out of baseball shortly into his 30s.
But at no point could anyone have ever watched Moyer play and thought “that’s a SP worthy of the Hall”.
On that ‘metric’, you could give a half hearted vote to Jack Morris, who also had one of the very best mustaches of his era. But Jack wasn’t a Hall of Famer, either.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
No....longevity on it's own does not earn a player a trip to the hall of fame.
Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicated. - George Costanza
Moyer is not a Hall of Famer
His longevity is certainly admirable in its own right. Wasn’t he the oldest pitcher to pitch a shutout?
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
If you disagree with me in any way, you are wrong.
Definitely not.
He has two years where his WAR was ever above 4. He’s been entirely mediocre for his entire career, and players shouldn’t be rewarded for playing longer than their peers, IMO. It’s not even really debatable to me.
Three years
according to B-R.com. And all three of those years were above five.
I’m not voting for Moyer for Cooperstown. But he’s got a better case than Morris.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 17, 2012 11:54 PM CST up reply actions
Fangraphs and B-R have significantly different values for Moyer then.
Which is odd, because the difference in them tends to come from defensive metrics, if I recall correctly.
It's a difference between how fWAR and rWAR are calculated
Fangraphs actually explains this.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
If you disagree with me in any way, you are wrong.
Fangraphs also gives Morris more WAR
Crux of the difference may be FIP. Morris’s is 52 points lower than Moyers’ (3.94 vs. 4.46).
That would make perfect sense...
Something like FIP or xFIP would be a difference between BR and Fangraphs since they calculate defense differently.
Makes you wonder
At what point does the ability to play competitively at a crazy old age become a reason to give a guy a HOF vote, in and of itself? Does such an age exist?
I submit that, if a dude played quality second base at 65, I’d probably give him a vote.
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See, that's kind of my point.
Moyer is doing something no one has ever done — be an effective fifth starter in his late 40s. Now he might do it at almost 50.
That, plus all the rest of what he’s done, makes him very, very close to qualified, IMO.
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would you make the same argument for Julio Franco
who played until he was 48 and was effective at the age of 47?
Q: Why did Theo Epstein cross the road?
A: To Dump Garza
Effective or not...
Julio Franco stopped being a regular contributor when he was 38.
--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jan 17, 2012 7:04 PM CST up reply actions
Right.
If he’d have been a regular player until 47 or 48? Sure, because then he’d probably have gotten to 3000 hits.
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above you say it isnt about the numbers alone
now you point to the numbers (3000).
and he was effective in his 40’s no doubt
Q: Why did Theo Epstein cross the road?
A: To Dump Garza
It's not ENTIRELY about the numbers.
At no time have I ever said that numbers should be disregarded.
Neither should they tell the entire story.
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You're basically saying if Ryan Dempster pitches until he's 48, he's a hall of famer then.
I just can’t get on board with that.
If Demp's pitching for World Series contenders and getting to 300 wins, then we'll talk about it.
Most pitchers can’t do what Jamie Moyer has done, because they don’t work as hard as Jamie Moyer has worked. This doesn’t make him a Hall of Famer just based on that, but he gets credit for it, and the results which have come with it. If he doesn’t go out and pitch well while he’s 48 or older, then he won’t have any chance at all. His supporters know that.
--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jan 17, 2012 10:40 PM CST up reply actions
Pitching wins are pointless - Felix Hernandez has averaged just over 13 wins per year in 6 seasons
I get it’s a “milestone number,” but when you play until you’re 48, those are diminished, IMO. What he has done is rare and impressive, but it does not make him one of the best pitchers in the game – it makes him an anomaly.
You’re putting too much stock into the fact that Moyer has played for good teams as an average pitcher.
I understand that
but you are hanging a lot on longevity, which Franco would have as well, and should then get the same consideration if not more
Q: Why did Theo Epstein cross the road?
A: To Dump Garza
The longevity
… has allowed Moyer to do something no one else in MLB history has done — to be a capable 4/5 starter in his 40s (and maybe 50s).
Franco was a bench player at that age. A good one, but nothing more — and not unique.
There’s the difference.
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I think you are selling him short IMHO
but I also dont think he or Moyer should be HOF inductees either.
If you look at the accomplishments of Franco, he should get as much if not more consideration than Moyer.
Awards and highlights
3-time All-Star (1989–91)
MVP All-Star Game (1990)
Led American League in batting average (.341, 1991)
Led AL in singles (156, 1991)
2nd in the AL Rookie of the Year selection (1983, behind Ron Kittle)
Led AL in at-bats (658, 1984)
Top 10 MVP selection (8th, AL, 1994)
Carolina League MVP (1980)
Twice hit over .400 in the Mexican League (.423, 1999; .437, 2000)
Oldest player to hit a Grand Slam (47, 2005, breaking his own record set in 2004 at 45)
Oldest regularly playing non-pitcher player in MLB history (48)
Second-oldest player to appear in MLB postseason play (48, during the 2006 postseason)
Oldest player in Major League history to hit a home run (48)
Second-oldest player to steal a base (48, during the 2007 season)
Led all Dominican players in MLB history in seasons, games, at-bats, hits, and bases on balls
Has compiled over 4,200 hits in his 26-year professional career:
*Major League Baseball: 2586 (through end of 2007 season)
*Minor Leagues: 618
*Mexican League: 316
*Japan’s Nippon Professional Baseball: 286
*Dominican Winter League: 267
*South Korea’s Korean Baseball Organization: 156
TOTAL: 4,229
Pete Rose and Ty Cobb are the only other players with 4,200 hits (combined majors, minors and international play) in their careers.
Has the distinguished honor of being the last active player in the major leagues from RBI Baseball (NES)
As of 2006, Julio Franco was the only active player to face a pitcher who pitched against Hall of Famer Ted Williams, who retired in 1960. The pitcher is Jim Kaat, who played in the majors from 1959 to 1983. Williams had batted against Kaat the final day of the 1959 season, Kaat’s rookie year. Kaat walked Franco in the latter’s rookie season in 1982.
Franco was the last MLB player eligible to wear a batting helmet with no ear flaps. He elected to wear a helmet with an ear flap throughout his career.
Franco was the sixth batter that Roger Clemens ever faced, and when the two faced each other on June 15, 2007, they became the oldest batter-pitcher pair in the major leagues since October 1, 1933.
If he was really born before 1958, then Franco may hold MLB records for oldest to steal a base and oldest to appear in the postseason
i had to bold the NES reference, that one made me laugh
Q: Why did Theo Epstein cross the road?
A: To Dump Garza
So posting a laundry list of things Franco did makes him a Hall of Famer?
Including his hits in winter ball?
Please. The two aren’t nearly comparable.
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actually, in my post you replied to
i said I feel neither Moyer nor Franco are HOFers.
Q: Why did Theo Epstein cross the road?
A: To Dump Garza
Look at his PAs from his age 38 season on.
You can’t give him credit for longevity for sticking around as a pinch hitter and backup 1B and not give Moyer a ton more for being a 4/5 starter on playoff teams and World Series Champions… and doing it for longer.
--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jan 19, 2012 1:53 PM CST up reply actions
also at the age of 47 Phil Niekro was still an effective pitcher
with 200+ innings pitched for Cleveland.
Q: Why did Theo Epstein cross the road?
A: To Dump Garza
Niekro was a knuckleballer.
Those guys generally lasted longer than other pitchers.
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but it does show that Moyer is not the only pitcher
as you have stated to pitch effectively into their 40’s.
Q: Why did Theo Epstein cross the road?
A: To Dump Garza
Fair enough
… but Niekro is in the Hall of Fame.
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Technically, Franco did have 3,000 professional hits
He actually is one of three players in baseball history to reach 4,000 professional hits. Franco played in Mexico and Japan, which actually makes his hit totals higher than his MLB totals. Franco is another one of those interesting baseball history stories. This doesn’t put him in the Hall of Fame, but he is technically part of an exclusive club with Ty Cobb and Pete Rose. If Ichiro continues to have good production, his combined totals from NPB and MLB will eclipse 4,000 hits as well.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
If you disagree with me in any way, you are wrong.
by Ace Venom on Jan 18, 2012 2:29 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Don't forget Waukegan's own Jigger Statz...
…who was the second of four men to reach 4,000 hits in the pros. Statz collected 4,071 hits playing for the Wrigleys in Chicago and LA from 1920 through 1942. He also collected 22 hits for the New York Giants in 1919 before joining the Wrigley organization, for a grand total of 4,093. We can assume he was going for Cobb’s 4,191, but fell short when he no longer could compete in AAA ball at age 45.
Check out Jigger’s 1923 season with the Cubs to get an idea of how good he was: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/statzji01.shtml
However, as the Pete Rose of the Pacific Coast League, Statz preferred to remain out west. The Wrigleys were happy to keep him there as the star of the Angels, a team they generally operated as the second big league franchise in their porfolio, rather than as a farm team for the Cubs.
"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62
"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64
by ernaga on Jan 18, 2012 5:01 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
^^ Note that Statz had 179 hits with the Dodgers in 1927 & '28... ^^
Also, here’s a nice interview with an 88-year-old Statz that appeared in the LA Times as he watched Rose chase Cobb in 1985: http://articles.latimes.com/1985-09-11/sports/sp-7291_1_jigger-statz
"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62
"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64
by ernaga on Jan 18, 2012 5:13 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Rec'd
for the simple fact that “Jigger Statz” is an AWESOME baseball name.
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OK
… cross him off the list for the Hall of Fear.
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sigh
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 17, 2012 3:44 PM CST up reply actions
Remind me to explain to you the concept of a "joke".
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I know that concept....
the title of this FanShot is a good one.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 17, 2012 3:56 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
THE CIRCLE IS COMPLETE
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 17, 2012 3:59 PM CST up reply actions
I say no...
He’s been a quality pitcher for a very long time, but no Hall of Fame worthy in my opinion.
Greatness for a long period of time=Hall of Fame
Above average for a very long period of time=not so much
IMO...
…I have a hard time putting a guy in the HOF without a period of time when they were dominant. To me, that would mean 5-6 years of being one of the top performers at your position and I’m not sure Moyer can say that.
It is compelling that he has been effective for as long as he has, but I don’t think HOF worthiness should be based heavily on a long time of being “effective”.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Don't look now, but Moyer and the legendary '88 Cubs are on their way...
…to rivaling the ‘28-’33 Yankees, ‘33 Cards, and ’24-’26 Giants as a Hall of Fame roster.
Sandberg, Dawson and Gossage are in, while Maddux soon will take his place in the front row. Meanwhile, once the metrics blogging elites get their inevitable chance to vote, Palmeiro will be able to walk through a side entrance for roiders. Also, Mark Grace, our own version Highpockets Kelly, might benefit from a sabrematic vote, while at the same time using the broadcast booth as a traditional launching pad to the Hall.
By adding another 20 wins to his remarkable career, Jamie’s a lock, with his unmatched longevity as the tipping point for voters.
Add it all up to find that in 2025 fans may be shocked to see the ’88 Cubs with seven Hall members – eight if Popeye gets the sympathy vote from the Veterans Committee. Zim, after all, has made some friends while working in pro ball during parts of eight decades.
"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62
"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64
Grace won't get in.
Neither will Zimmer.
But four Hall of Famers from an 85-loss team? Pretty impressive.
They’re outdone by the 1966 Cubs, a 103-loss team that now has FIVE Hall of Famers: Banks, Santo, Williams, Jenkins and Robin Roberts, who ended his career with 11 appearances (and a 6.14 ERA) on that club. Six, if you count manager Leo Durocher.
I haven’t checked, but that’s got to be a record for a 100-loss team. Heck, there aren’t many championship teams that had that many Hall of Famers.
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The 1932 Giants
Finished in 6th (out of 8) place with a 72-82 record. They had six Hall of Famers on the roster—Bill Terry, Mel Ott, Freddie Lindstrom, Travis Jackson, Carl Hubbell and Waite Hoyt. Seven if you count manager John McGraw, who retired forty games into the season.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 18, 2012 1:54 PM CST up reply actions
Double-checking my "eight-decade" comment about Zim...
…I found that, yes, he did play for the Class D 1949 Cambridge Dodgers in Maryland’s Eastern Shore League. A remarkable but little-known fact about that team was that Zimmer was only one of three Z’s on the roster, along with Frank Zawodzinski and Zeke Zeisz. As the great Mel Allen might say: Isn’t that something?
"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62
"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64
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