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Show Me The (TV) Money

Gordon Wittenmyer in the Sun-Times writes about something we've all wondered about -- the Cubs' TV deals:

Sources say the Cubs expect to begin discussions with WGN at the end of this year on a contract set to expire after the 2014 season. Executives considered the deal below market value before the recent boom. The team’s contract with CSN, which broadcasts roughly half the games, runs through 2019.

Wittenmyer reports that the Cubs' combined annual take from the WGN and CSN deals is about $45 million -- which pales next to some of the new and existing deals recently signed by other teams, including the $150 million a year the Rangers are now getting from FSN Southwest, and the reported $75 million a year the Padres are getting in a just-signed local TV contract.

Star-divide

There's no question that the Cubs, with a national fanbase that has rabid interest in the team even in down times and hope for the future with new management, could reap far more than $45 million a year in the open market, even during recessionary times. Somehow, TV rights deals seem immune to economic downturns; the NFL just signed a huge new TV deal worth somewhere north of $3 billion to the league through 2022.

It doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility that the Cubs could get what the Rangers are getting -- $150 million a year -- or more, if they could sell their rights on the open market. Wittenmyer's article suggests the Cubs might want to re-up their deal with WGN if they could get a lot more money out of it. Whether WGN, still owned by Tribune Co., which has yet to wrap up its bankruptcy filing, would be willing to pay top dollar for about 40% of the Cubs' schedule, is anyone's guess.

More likely, the Cubs might wind up with all their games on CSN, although that would create conflicts with White Sox telecasts. Both teams own a 25% stake in the channel; when games conflict, as they sometimes do, a second CSN channel is used (CSN Chicago Plus) so that both teams' games can be carried. That could be the impetus for the Cubs to create their own TV channel after 2014; channels like that (YES Network, SNY, NESN) that are either wholly-owned or majority-owned by the teams, have led to lucrative revenue streams.

If the Cubs can take that $45 million annual figure and add $100 million or more to it, that could be a game-changer for the Cubs to compete for high-priced free agents, or to develop their own players and lock them up to long-term deals.

It'll be must-see TV. We hope, anyway.

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I look forward to it

But I fear that the landscape will have changed so dramatically by 2019 (or whatever) that the Cubs won’t be getting a leg up, so much as catching back up.

(Pessimistic Cubs fan, I suppose…)

Bleacher Nation - Cubs Rumors and News

by Brett Taylor on Feb 26, 2012 12:03 PM CST reply actions  

But...

… it’s possible the Cubs could figure out something with the CSN deal and be done with it before 2019.

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by Al Yellon on Feb 26, 2012 12:55 PM CST up reply actions  

I am not a lawyer.

You are. Contracts can be renegotiated, right?

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by Al Yellon on Feb 26, 2012 3:58 PM CST up reply actions  

This one?

Up front, I’ll say I’m no contract lawyer. However, if I understand the contract correctly, CSN pay sthe Cubs $45M, then CSN tries to make their money back through advertising revenue. Anything they sell over the $45M is profit. Where’s the incentive for them to pay more than $45M to the Cubs through 2019 if they don’t have to do so?

Chicago. Enough said.

by BeerCub on Feb 26, 2012 4:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, seeing as major market deals are going for 120-150 million

It’s safe to assume Comcast is making a LOT of profit from their deal with the Cubs. The incentive would be to keep that profit past the 2019 season. The Cubs have the leverage to say, “You’re right, we can’t walk away or force you to renegotiate, but we can guarantee that we’re not going to re-up with you beyond 2019 if we don’t rework something out now to make it more fair.”

by bdlugz on Feb 26, 2012 4:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Why would they say that?

They have a 25% stake there. They’d walk away from their own place? The more Comcast makes, the more they get.

Chicago. Enough said.

by BeerCub on Feb 26, 2012 4:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Moreover.....

…renegotiations or not, the Cubs would be foolish not to form their own network after 2019 and get ALL the money. Comcast probably thinks they’re losing them after the deal is over as it is.

Chicago. Enough said.

by BeerCub on Feb 26, 2012 4:24 PM CST up reply actions  

OBJECTION!!!

In Theo and Jed I Trust

by KJ24 on Feb 26, 2012 4:31 PM CST up reply actions  

It's unusual, but I'll allow it.

Counselor this had better be good.

/everyjudgeonTVever

by D98 on Feb 26, 2012 4:57 PM CST up reply actions  

On what grounds? He didn't say.

This could also be appropriate for Ryan Bruan.

Chicago. Enough said.

by BeerCub on Feb 26, 2012 5:46 PM CST up reply actions  

It's

incompetent, irrelevant, and immaterial!

Judge: “Buuuuuuut… defense counsel is Perry Mason, so I’ll allow it”.

by ddoubleheader on Feb 26, 2012 8:56 PM CST up reply actions  

so one of them is Ol' Pete.

who is the other? :D

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Feb 27, 2012 2:59 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, yes, contracts can be renegotiated.

But in this case, the contract is so ludicrously one-sided, and has such a long term remaining on the deal, that the Cubs have no leverage whatsoever.

If CSN is able to pull the same ad rates for Cubs games that they can for Rangers games, for instance – and I can’t imagine why they couldn’t – then Comcast is pocketing around $70MM annually.

I’m basing that on these assumptions – that they’ve got 2/3 of the games (is that right? Or is it half?), that they’re paying about $30MM of the $45MM the Cubs currently get, and that they’re able to earn about $100MM for those games.

So Comcast has a half a billion in pure profit coming to them over the next 7 seasons.

The Cubs could, presumably, offer to extend the deal now, taking a somewhat less ludicrously under-market deal — but why extend such an unforgivably bad arrangement?

Probably better to just swallow this bitter, bitter pill, fire literally everyone who was involved in signing this deal, and hope that you can Moneyball your way into pretending to be a big-market team until 2020.

Dang, this is depressing.

by D98 on Feb 26, 2012 4:27 PM CST up reply actions  

would CSN think this way...

if we pay the Cubs what they want for all their games till the contract runs out, 2019, then the Cubs will become a better team, win the World Series and we, CSN, will get more and more viewers and ultimately more advertisers which means more money for us.??

"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 26, 2012 6:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Contract?

Just sign here:

Jack Brickhouse: "Hey! Hey!" Harry Caray: "Holy Cow!"
Vince Lloyd: "The Chicago Cubs are on the Air!" Len Kasper: "Oh Baby!!!!"
Ron Santo: "YES!" "All Right! Let's do it!" "Ohhh Nooooo!" "Gee Whiz! Come on!" AND... "This Is The Year!"

by #1 iowan cubs fan on Feb 26, 2012 8:39 PM CST up reply actions  

There really could be some huge opportunities for the Cubs...

…but that said, the more revenue the Cubs generate from sources like TV, the less they have to rely upon revenue from “butts-in-the-seats”. With all the complaint threads of the past year or so, I would caution everyone to be careful what you wish for. …or at least acknowledge what could happen ahead of time if the team expands on policies many here already oppose.

I only mention this because I hear a lot of complaints about this from soccer fans I know in Europe, who sometimes think the teams’ priorities are significantly more on TV broadcasts out-of-market than the people in the stadiums and/or city. Whether the complaints are right or wrong, I couldn’t say having never been to a game over there myself and only having watched from a continent away.

Apologies for the Sunday pessimism….especially with how sunny it is outside :)

by MarchHare on Feb 26, 2012 12:19 PM CST reply actions  

What about us out-of-town fans?

MLB.TV 7 Extra Innings are both pricey…….

by Section 527 on Feb 26, 2012 12:36 PM CST reply actions  

Exactly

I don’t get CSN here in Michigan. WGN is the place I get my Cubs broadcasts from (save ESPN and FOX’s wonderfully unbiased coverage). I catch those games every chance I get, and losing WGN would, well, really suck. Hopefully they can keep Cubs games on WGN.

by leftycub on Feb 26, 2012 1:15 PM CST up reply actions  

I have always said

… regarding TV coverage and blackouts, that anyone should be able to watch any game he or she wants, no blackouts, if he or she is willing to pay for it.

Now, it’s true that MLB.TV and EI cost money. If you could watch every game on either service without blackout, wouldn’t it be worth it?

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by Al Yellon on Feb 26, 2012 1:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Not when you can barely afford your monthly rent

like this MD resident. Of course, that could be different by the 2014 season. But even so, I hope the Cubs can get more money out of WGN America so I won’t have to commit to mlb.tv or Extra Innings.

by Mulhollandmania on Feb 26, 2012 1:36 PM CST up reply actions  

I'll do you one better

Id rather see the Time Warner monopoly broken up in NY, if they shift exclusively to CSN, id be s.o.l

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Feb 26, 2012 7:32 PM CST up reply actions  

I understand not having $100+ to afford MLB.TV

But it really is a bargain when you compare it to the other league and college TV packages out there. And the cost for a yearly MLB.TV sub runs me less than going to a single game when you throw in all of the expenses associated with being an out-of towner and spending a night in a major league city.
Personally, I don’t care where the Cubs end up being broadcast as long as MLB.TV remains available and stays at under $200 a year.

by wisconsinwillie on Feb 27, 2012 11:13 AM CST up reply actions  

If Things Break Wrong, Cubs Could Lose National Fanbase

For starters, I hope the Cubs win every World Series from now until the end of time regardless of how many games are on WGN America.

However, if the Cubs continue their losing ways and don’t have any games on WGN America, I see the national fan appeal eroding. That national fan base wouldn’t erode overnight.

Perish the thought, let’s say the Cubs have bad seasons from now until 2019. Let’s say that the Cubs don’t have any games on WGN America from 2015-2019. Under those circumstances, there’s no way that the Cubs will have as many fans outside of Chicagoland as they do now.

Perhaps, with the potential increased revenue the Cubs could get from TV deals that don’t involve WGN could help the Cubs become more competitive. Thus, because the Cubs would be more competitive, the team could expand its fanbase because of good old-fashioned winning. The Red Sox and Yankees have national fanbases because of winning. I know that’s the argument for potentially dropping WGN.

The Cubs had better think hard about not having a TV contract with WGN. Sure, if the Cubs can get a lot of extra money from not including WGN, I’d do the deal. However, if the Cubs only get a little extra money from not including WGN, I wouldn’t do it.

Good things come to those who wait... and wait....and wait.

by memphiscub on Feb 27, 2012 12:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Problem I have with WGN

That I don’t think has been mentioned yet by anyone on this topic is that in much of the US, WGN isn’t available in HD other than what passes for HD via MLB.TV (MLB.TV version of HD is much easier on the eyes than the WGN SD feed I get via cable TV, but not as good as Fox, FSN, MLB network, ESPN, or WTBS HD via direct cable TV).
It makes WGN look pretty minor league.

by wisconsinwillie on Feb 27, 2012 12:19 PM CST up reply actions  

I Don't Get WGN HD, Either

Yes, that is most definitely a problem. I get those other channels in HD. I’ve been known to watch a Cubs-Braves or Cubs-Cardinals game on FSN-HD with the sound muted because I don’t get WGN in HD.

Good things come to those who wait... and wait....and wait.

by memphiscub on Feb 27, 2012 12:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Is there an opt out clause with CSN?

We'll miss you Big Boy. #10 is going into the Hall of Fame!!

by mrcubsfan on Feb 26, 2012 1:19 PM CST reply actions  

I don't know.

But as noted, maybe the Cubs could work a deal with the other three teams to buy out their interest, and maybe buy out the TV deal, too.

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by Al Yellon on Feb 26, 2012 1:26 PM CST up reply actions  

You would think that

those teams would want their own network themselves, but I can’t see how any of them would get the audience necessary to maintain it. As such, I think they probably would want a bigger stake of CSN.

by jerry morales rules on Feb 26, 2012 1:54 PM CST up reply actions  

That might work for everyone.

The Bulls, Blackhawks and White Sox all get a bigger share of CSN — and presumably a bigger share of the ad dollars there — and the Cubs get their own network.

You’re right, I don’t think any of those three teams could sustain a network of their own.

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by Al Yellon on Feb 26, 2012 2:00 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't see a world where CSN is willing to let the Cubs deal walk away.

They own a huge chunk of the next 7 years of Cubs game, at about a third of the going market rate.

That’s one of your all-time one-sided deals. Comcast isn’t going to give that up easy.

by D98 on Feb 26, 2012 4:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, CSN

would be more willing to let the White Sox walk away than the Cubs, though in practice, I don’t think that’ll happen because the White Sox/Bulls are probably a package deal and CSN would be as hesitant to give up the Bulls as give up the Cubs.

by ddoubleheader on Feb 26, 2012 8:58 PM CST up reply actions  

The TV deals became the new windfall over the last couple of years.

I’m not sure if anyone knows what the yankees make off of the YES network, but the announced rangers and angels deals give the Cubs something to shoot for.

Does anyone know if the yankees are allowed to have the YES network on cable distributors outside of their territorial broadcast area? Can the YES network be added to cable down in Tampa?

"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum

by RiskyBusiness on Feb 26, 2012 1:45 PM CST reply actions  

I think I could add YES

To my directv package out here in Oregon, but I’m not willing to pay for the higher package nor would I really care to have the YES network. A Cubs network could be worth it to me, but now I just split MLB.tv with a couple other guys who are fans of other teams, so it works out well for us.

by portlandcubfan on Feb 26, 2012 4:24 PM CST up reply actions  

About the same, actually.

It’s been about 60 games for the last 3-4 years. 60 again this year.

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by Al Yellon on Feb 26, 2012 2:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Before my time here...

All Cubs games were on WGN “once upon a time”. If I’m not mistaken.

Jack Brickhouse: "Hey! Hey!" Harry Caray: "Holy Cow!"
Vince Lloyd: "The Chicago Cubs are on the Air!" Len Kasper: "Oh Baby!!!!"
Ron Santo: "YES!" "All Right! Let's do it!" "Ohhh Nooooo!" "Gee Whiz! Come on!" AND... "This Is The Year!"

by #1 iowan cubs fan on Feb 26, 2012 8:43 PM CST up reply actions  

I hope they keep Cubs games on WGN

RSNs make a lot of money for teams via every cable customer paying a piece of it. Maybe they can try and not screw WGN Ch. 9 out of the games but get a fraction of the fee generated by carrying WGN superstation, which is how Cubs fans nationwide see the Cubs. Maybe they can set up a deal where WGN superstation becomes like a quasi-RSN for them.

And yes, Cubs games on WGN date back to 1948 (when WGN went on the air). Cubs were on WGN longer than Bozo when Bozo was around. Bozo was arguably bigger with its 12 year waiting list for tickets. Imagine waiting 12 years for tickets to any regular Cubs game. Yikes.

by ddoubleheader on Feb 26, 2012 9:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Man that's a huge $ gap.

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)

by SackMan on Feb 26, 2012 2:29 PM CST reply actions  

Heres the other million dollar ?

When does the radio deal end and when it does will the Cubs explore other avenues now that they and WGN aren’t owned by the same people?

I’ve heard several places the Sox get more money in the radio deal than the Cubs do.

Also is it my imagination or has there been a real dearth of anything out of Mesa so far? Maybe that’s a good thing.

Nothing happens unless it's first a dream

by puckishcubsfan on Feb 26, 2012 3:20 PM CST reply actions  

Without WGN

the Cubs are simply not as valuable a team. WGN was what made the Cubs a team with a national following—I know that I’m not the only fan on this board who grew up outside of Illinois and became a Cub fan because of WGN. (Would the Ricketts family be Cub fans without WGN?) Certainly WGN benefited from this relationship too, but if the Cubs left WGN, there would be long-term damage done to the brand. Check out the Atlanta Braves for comparison. They’re certainly still big in the South, but their national following is quickly drying up.

The Cubs have to come to an agreement to leave some games on WGN, and the Tribune Corporation has to realize that without the Cubs, their channel isn’t worth nearly as much either.

It would be in the Cubs best interest to give WGN a home-town discount. It would not be in their best interest to let WGN rob them blind. I think there is an agreement here to be reached.

by Josh Timmers on Feb 26, 2012 4:02 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

I don't really think the Braves/Cubs comparison is valid.

The Braves weren’t really that popular a team before TBS. They got some national kick out of it, sure, and have lost that since — but then, they have trouble selling out their stadium in Atlanta even when they’re good.

Meanwhile, Cubs fans fill up stadiums nationwide even when they’re bad. Distribution of games is national these days anyway — well, except for the ridiculous blackouts.

End those, and Cubs fans outside of Chicago could surely see the team anywhere, at a fairly reasonable cost, and make their kids into Cubs fans. I don’t think they’re dependent on WGN, not the way they were in the 1980s, anyway.

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by Al Yellon on Feb 26, 2012 4:05 PM CST up reply actions  

I question whether the Cubs were a popular team before WGN

In 1975 they were 8th in league attendance. In 1974 they were tenth. Certainly all the day games was one cause of that, but if I remember the 1970s, the big teams nationally were the Dodgers, Yankees and Reds. The Mets to a certain extent. The Cubs weren’t on the radar outside of the upper Midwest. The White Sox were just as big.

I don’t think it’s just a matter of parents turning their kids into Cub fans. My mom was a Milwaukee Braves fan and didn’t care about baseball after they left town. My dad wouldn’t have watched a baseball game if you paid him.

Yes, anyone can watch the games, but as other have said—it costs money. The only people who pay for Extra Innings or MLB.tv are people who are already hard-core fans.

by Josh Timmers on Feb 26, 2012 4:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Good point

As kid growing there from 1966 through 1974, Wrigley Field was a pretty empty place sometimes, even during the Banks-Santo-Williams et al heyday. Not until WGN went national and especially with the additon of Harry Caray, did Wrigley and the Cubs become a Destination.

Chicago. Enough said.

by BeerCub on Feb 26, 2012 4:34 PM CST up reply actions  

That's all true.

But the baseball landscape has changed so much in the last 40 years that I think the Cubs could maintain their national fanbase, even in the absence of only 40% of their games on WGN.

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by Al Yellon on Feb 26, 2012 4:42 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think so

I think it will erode over time. Braves on TBS certainly helped corresponding for many years with the Bobby Cox era, though there were some bad years (love that Skip Carey quote about the 1988? Braves “Like lambs to the slaughter, the Braves take the field”).

And Cubs-White Sox, from what I’ve read, it see-sawed back and forth in terms of who was the bigger team in Chicago over much of the 20th century but since the ‘60s, it’s been Cubs dominant. Settlement patterns of the suburbs helped solidify most of the suburbs as Cubs suburbs (west & north; south & SW favor White Sox). Same thing happened for states way back when. Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio were settled by very different mixes of people (from different states) way back in the early-mid 1800s.

by ddoubleheader on Feb 26, 2012 9:09 PM CST up reply actions  

You're A Little Older Than I Am, But...

I don’t think there was any real momentum getting built for a national Cubs fanbase before 1982, when Harry Caray came and the Cubs began to improve their play on the field. Cubs fandom didn’t really proliferate in a big way until 1984, when the Cubs won their first division title.

Again, I’d love for the Cubs to be a consistent playoff team and keep their fanbase that way, so the issue of having games on WGN America becomes a nonissue in maintaining a national fanbase. My point is that the Cubs have a safety net, if you will, in WGN America, even if the Cubs are bad. If you have the combination of the Cubs losing on the field with no coverage on WGN America, the Cubs will be in real trouble in maintaining their fanbase.

Good things come to those who wait... and wait....and wait.

by memphiscub on Feb 27, 2012 12:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Remember the Thrashers?

Now Airplane II: The Sequel, err, the Winnipeg Jets.

by ddoubleheader on Feb 26, 2012 9:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes I do.

I went to quite a few games but obviously not enough.

sigh at least the weather’s nice down here.

by JOVE23 on Feb 26, 2012 9:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Georgia Bulldogs Football

Despite the fact that Atlanta has had major pro sports since 1966, I still think the most popular sports team in Atlanta is a football team in Athens.

Good things come to those who wait... and wait....and wait.

by memphiscub on Feb 27, 2012 12:20 PM CST up reply actions  

This is true - but if the team could get their own network, distributed nationally, we'd be in the same situation.

The WGN ship has, sadly, sailed. They needed to get all that sweet advertising revenue from the awesome 1990’s CW/UPN programming, after all.

What the Cubs need now is to get every single game, home and away, on a single channel where
it can be found easily – and then get that channel distributed nationally.

The current patchwork of channels is a joke. It shouldn’t take 20 minutes to figure out what channel the Cubs are on. And there were multiple times last year when CSN’s Cub HD feed would be on some unmarked “extra” channel like 247 – and literally the only way we’d be able to find it was by asking around at BCB.

As for national distribution, The Big10 network managed to get into every cable market around the country – “CUB” could do the same thing, assuming they set the per-subscriber rate at an appropriate place.

by D98 on Feb 26, 2012 4:09 PM CST up reply actions  

100% agreed.

See, you and I can agree on something!

:-)

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by Al Yellon on Feb 26, 2012 4:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Heh.

Seriously, though, this news about the current deals running through 2019 just ruined my day.

I don’t see a world in which the Cubs can compete with the big boys for top free agents… well, until 2020. They foolishly signed away a hundred million dollars a year – money that their competitors are going to be using to sign Roy Halladays and Yu Darvishes.

How does anyone sign away their TV rights for decades on end? How anyone you possibly project what the contract might look like even 5 years out?

What a gigantic bummer.

by D98 on Feb 26, 2012 4:21 PM CST up reply actions  

UPN?

UPN was WPWR-50. WGN was WB.

by ddoubleheader on Feb 26, 2012 9:14 PM CST up reply actions  

How in the world would you get that distributed?

ESPN can’t even get the Longhorn Network distributed in Texas. Many cable companies still don’t carry the NFL Network. You’re expecting a Cubs channel to get coverage across the country on an expanded basic cable tier?

The Big Ten Network is only in every market in the country because they were able to swing a deal with DirecTV—and that was because NewsCorp at the time owned both. Most cable companies only carry the Big Ten Network on a Sports Tier or not at all.

On top of that, the Big Ten Network has programming all year round. Cable companies don’t want to pay for six months of programming.

This idea that a Cubs network could just get on every major cable system in the country and would carry all the games is ridiculous. Have you been following all the fights between cable systems and sports networks?

Your plan is great for people in Chicago. For any Cub fan who lives anywhere else, it sucks.

by Josh Timmers on Feb 26, 2012 4:34 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

You get it distributed

… by having the blackouts lifted, so anyone can watch CubsNet (or whatever it’s called) anywhere.

Bud Selig will have to be out of office first, though.

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by Al Yellon on Feb 26, 2012 4:43 PM CST up reply actions  

The next commish needs to be a Libertarian

so we can watch any game we want to at any time. He or she could also let you smoke at ballparks again…and not just tobacco, if ya smell what I’m cookin’….

by EalyEagle on Feb 26, 2012 6:01 PM CST up reply actions  

The Big 10 Network has 12 Saturdays of compelling programming.

Okay, there’s men’s basketball. Problem is, the good games are going to be picked up by other networks. And no one really cares about the Big10’s 2nd through 5th most interesting mens basketball games. And even if people DID care, these teams only play so many games. It would add (at most) another 30-50 days of interesting programming.

The market for Big10 sports beyond football and men’s basketball is approximately zero.

The Cubs can point to 162 days of their primary attraction. That’s almost half the year, and it’s substantially more than the Big10 Network has to offer.

Plus another 30 days of spring training games, and offseason “hot stove” shows like what MLB Network has, except, obviously, Cub-centric.

by D98 on Feb 26, 2012 5:05 PM CST up reply actions  

How do YES and NESN stay afloat during the offseason?

Couldn’t a proposed Cubs Network just work off the same business model?

by EalyEagle on Feb 26, 2012 6:04 PM CST up reply actions  

That's the idea.

Unfortunately, it’s not happening this decade.

by D98 on Feb 26, 2012 11:39 PM CST up reply actions  

WGN was what made the Cubs a team with a national following - with a caveat

The Cubs on the WGN Superstation previously filled a programming void in markets because other teams did not broadcast all of their games on TV. Other teams are broadcasting more games on TV and filling up that void the Cubs/WGN once had.

Simply staying on WGN will not generate that national following like it did before.

"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum

by RiskyBusiness on Feb 26, 2012 7:23 PM CST up reply actions  

WGN will probably

really want to keep the Cubs. They need something to draw viewers, to keep them from becoming “independent” like WFLD’s waste bin (AKA WPWR). Have you seen CW’s ratings? They’re at 0.5-0.8 ratings this season. They can’t even attract 1% of the viewing audience. And their ratings fell 25% since last season, which was also low. CW is supposed to be around next season, but long run, it’s uncertain whether it would exist. Both UPN & WB lost money during their 11 year existence, though UPN was the bigger loser. Imagine WGN without CW and without the Cubs…

by ddoubleheader on Feb 26, 2012 9:18 PM CST up reply actions  

That does not sound like a good fit for the Cubs

Given the Rangers and Angels deals, I doubt WGN will have the resources to keep the Cubs.

"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum

by RiskyBusiness on Feb 26, 2012 11:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Definitely recommended...

The Cubs are where they’re at in appeal for two reasons: Sunshine-soaked day games and WGN giving them national appeal. Move them off of it, and they’re relegated to simply a strong regional brand.

by Damen Jackson on Feb 28, 2012 10:58 AM CST up reply actions  

I wonder what cut the Cubs get from the MLB.TV, Gameday Audio and other MLB Advanced Media products.


If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid. I'm a Sheeple and proud of it!
Spelling and grammar errors are included for creative and artistic reasons.

by eths on Feb 26, 2012 4:03 PM CST reply actions  

Any idea how much money is involved?


If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid. I'm a Sheeple and proud of it!
Spelling and grammar errors are included for creative and artistic reasons.

by eths on Feb 26, 2012 4:43 PM CST up reply actions  

I've read differing amounts.

Some say about $40 million per team, some say more.

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by Al Yellon on Feb 26, 2012 4:44 PM CST up reply actions  

In other words not a small sum, but nothing earth shaking - thanks.


If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid. I'm a Sheeple and proud of it!
Spelling and grammar errors are included for creative and artistic reasons.

by eths on Feb 26, 2012 4:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Oof.

When/why did they accept a deal for about 1/3 market value with CSN through 2019? Who was driving that particular effort?

There are bad deals, of the sort we discuss around here all the time, and there are bad deals, like this one, that cripple the franchise for an entire decade.

At this point, the Cubs may be better off trying to buy out the last 5 years of the CSN deal. But I’ll bet it won’t be easy. CSN is paying, what – $30MM, for about $100MM worth of programming?

What a disaster.

by D98 on Feb 26, 2012 4:05 PM CST reply actions  

I don't know when that deal was signed.

It had to be before the Ricketts took over.

But you’re right, a buyout might be worth it — especially if whatever new deal they can make would cover that cost and more.

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by Al Yellon on Feb 26, 2012 4:06 PM CST up reply actions  

The buyout would be insanely expensive, I'm thinking.

From Comcast’s standpoint, they’re holding rights to programming worth in excess of $100MM on the open market, for the next SEVEN years – and paying $30-odd million annually for it.

And if a Comcast affiliate is paying $150MM annually for Rangers rights – you can bet they’re making more than that in ad revenue. But for the sake of argument, let’s say they’re breaking even.

So you’ve got Comcast looking at $70MM or so in pure profit over the next 7 seasons. That’s where your buyout negotiation starts. It’s only going to go up from there, as Comcast will surely note the acceleration of sports ad rights costs over the last 5 years, the advent of live sports as the ONLY guaranteed non-DVD live TV watching, and so on.

This is a massive, massive screwup. I don’t want to be hyperbolic, but the CSN deal may be the biggest screwup in the history of the Cubs. And that’s saying something.

by D98 on Feb 26, 2012 4:13 PM CST up reply actions  

Clarification - it's $70MM in pure profit *annually* over the next 7 seasons.

So Comcast would presumably need half a billion dollars to be made whole. The Cubs aren’t going to be able to do that.

I think we should get used to the idea that the Cubs are going to be a de facto mid-market team for a while. They can’t compete with the TV money the smart teams are making. They aren’t even in the same zip code.

They’re starting each year literally a hundred million dollars in the hole. That buys an awful lot of on-field talent.

by D98 on Feb 26, 2012 4:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Money tied to championships?

If I owned the Cubs, and my #1 goal was to make money, I’d want my own network. No question.

But why is having your own network tied to winning championships? The teams that I’ve seen mentioned as those who have “sweet” TV deals don’t seem to have a ton of success in winning world championships in recent years. It’s about spending money wisely (which the Cubs APPEAR to be doing now for the first time in my lifetime).

I’m in St. Louis these days. They don’t have the best TV deal. They don’t have deep corporate pockets selling tons of luxury suites each game. What do they have? Smart management (at least until this year … not saying Matheny will fail, but he and his pitching coach, not to mention first baseman, are yet to be tested in a championship run). The last five seasons have made me ill, but I have to admit, they’ve done it without deep pockets.

by JimWa on Feb 26, 2012 5:38 PM CST reply actions  

Al, I got a kick out of your skewed poll regarding the bunting tourney.

Nicely worded, nice way to see if everyone shares your feelings about the bunting tournament with our being too obvious.

Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory­, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicate­d. - George Costanza

by troutfishin on Feb 26, 2012 5:54 PM CST reply actions  

*without*

Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory­, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicate­d. - George Costanza

by troutfishin on Feb 26, 2012 7:03 PM CST up reply actions  

That wasn't my intention.

But the voting has turned out to be pretty reasonable, actually.

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by Al Yellon on Feb 27, 2012 7:36 AM CST up reply actions  

Cubs can and should have their own network

But realistically, if it’s done right (and I believe Ricketts will make sure everything is done correctly), 2015 should be the earliest that the channel launches.

by ak123 on Feb 26, 2012 8:41 PM CST reply actions  

While I agree with your first paragraph

I am not sure that the national fan base engine can be sustained with the current cable/dish/internet model. I do think the CUbs and WGN jumped out in front with the superstation. But I think some of that that audience has dissipated now to closer teams, or it will in the next generation.

"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum

by RiskyBusiness on Feb 26, 2012 11:57 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, after 14 years of Diamondbacks

the Cubs still look to have a strong presence in Arizona.

by ddoubleheader on Feb 27, 2012 6:39 AM CST up reply actions  

The Cubs still have a strong presence everywhere

… despite being a mediocre to bad team the last three years, and only 40% of games on WGN.

I can see what South Side Expat is talking about, but I don’t see that as being doom and gloom as he does.

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by Al Yellon on Feb 27, 2012 7:38 AM CST up reply actions  

Several good points made here by a Sox fan who may know what the WFLD-TV deal did to kill Sox viewership...

…back in the late ’60’s. On paper, a move from Channel 9 and WGN to UHF represented a bonanza for the Sox in terms of the price Field paid the Allyns for broadcast rights, in what was then a pioneering deal to move a big league team away from VHF broadcasts.

Unfortunately, Channel 32 reception was poor on the northside, resulting in a decline in viewership that was compounded by the 1968 Sox on-field decline and the continued emergence of Durocher’s Cubs, who now could offer fans a full 162-game slate of free games on powerful WGN.

Of course, less TV exposure meant less fans buying tickets. and in the wake of that spring’s MLK riots many fans began to view Comiskey Park as an unsafe destination. Attendance plummeted, and by 1970 the Sox were the worst team in baseball in terms of won-loss, attendance and viewership, an instant basket case rumored to be headed for Seattle or St. Pete.

In some respects the Sox still are recovering from that perfect storm of 44 years ago, with little hope of once again becoming Chicago’s most popular baseball team. Although we can be confident no comparable disasters await the Cubs, a move to total narrowcasting in 2019 might reduce the national and international fan base and the favorable exposure given not only to the “Chicago Cubs” name, but also to the “Wrigley Field” brand, both so essential to attracting tourists to Chicago and moving mountains of team junk worldwide.

"Started hummin' a song from 1962..." – Bob Seger
"The past is never dead. It's not even past." – Faulkner

by ernaga on Feb 27, 2012 8:06 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't know if there was a place UHF reception was good back in the 60s.

It was embarrassing when the Sox made the move. UHF was though of as the domain of wrestling and bull fights.

Then, less than fifteen years later, Reinsdorf and Einhorn made an unpopular move at the time when they moved the Sox to Sportsvision.

by the nth on Feb 27, 2012 8:52 AM CST up reply actions  

I remember that

Not everyone had a TV set that could get UHF channels. Matter of fact, most people did not. Back then, we had two televisions in our house, a really big deal at the time. Only one, a small black and white TV, could get UHF WFLD. I’d bet many people here don’t even know what we’re talking about mentioning VHF and UHF.TV channels. Living in Des Paines, albeit a Northwest suburb, out neighborhood could have went either way amongst us kids and even adult baseball fans, Cubs or Sox. Once it became harder for people to watch the Sox on TV, you just naturally gravitated more to the Cubs, and it served as the genesis for the fan base today.

Also, we shouldn’t underestimate the fact that once the Sox moved to UHF (inexplicably going to even more obscure Channel 44 at one point inthe early 70’s), they lost Jack Brickhouse, who was doing doubke duty on WGN with both teams. Jack Drees took over, a nice man, but he wasn’t Brickhouse. Harry Caray came on board when they went to 44, but at that time like I said 44 was hard to get.

It was just an evil stroke of genius to put the Cubs on TV when they first did, because many of us have commented how coming home from school in the 60’s and still being able to catch the last few innings on TV is what really hooked us.

Chicago. Enough said.

by BeerCub on Feb 27, 2012 8:55 AM CST up reply actions  

Typos or not

… this is one of the biggest reasons the Cubs became the #1 team in Chicago. In 1967, it could have easily gone the other way — the Sox had been good for almost two decades and the Cubs had been bad.

But the TV choices helped make the teams what they are now.

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by Al Yellon on Feb 27, 2012 9:48 AM CST up reply actions  

Of course, the genesis of the "evil stroke of genius" that made the Cubs broadcast pioneers...

…was having the father of modern advertising, Albert Lasker, as the team’s principal stockholder from 1916-25, as well as having William Wrigley, Lasker’s junior partner, waiting in the wings to take over the team knowing that once his family name was above the ballpark entrance, the “Wrigley” brand would receive priceless free publicity on a daily basis from virtually all major media outlets in the USA.

That’s why until World War II, the Cubs gave away broadcast rights to any radio station that wanted to cover games at Wrigley Field, and why the same practice was used by P.K. Wrigley in the early days of television, when all Cubs home games could be seen in Chicago on three channels.

For the years 1925-49, the value-added benefit of publicizing the Wrigley brand by giving away broadcast rights made sense, but once the innovations of Wrigley’s baseball competitors began to strangle the franchise, he partnered with the Trib, selling that organization not only exclusive TV and, ultimately, radio rights, but also a direct financial stake in the franchise.

There should be no mystery why Wrigley I bought the team from Lasker, why Wrigley II refused to sell the franchise despite his inability and/or unwillingness to compete on modern terms, and why Wrigley III took what may have been a lowball offer from the Trib when his estate tax liabilities as well as the skyrocketing costs of player free agency forced him to sell the team in 1981. In each instance, securing the Wrigley name above the ballpark entrance appears to have been a principal motivation.

In terms of marketing genius, it’s only fair to say: “Well done, gentlemen.” Through a combination of luck, drive and salesmanship Lasker, the Wrigleys, and the Trib built a unique business model – a sports franchise largely impervious to financial peril as it continues to sell the Wrigley brand – now not only to move mountains of chewing gum, but also to market the ballpark that became a brand – baseball’s most sacred venue, Wrigley Field.

"Started hummin' a song from 1962..." – Bob Seger
"The past is never dead. It's not even past." – Faulkner

by ernaga on Feb 27, 2012 10:24 AM CST up reply actions  

Yup

Wrigley Field in and of itself also factors mightily into the Cubs’ far reaching fan base. There’s just no other place like it, save for Fenway.

Chicago. Enough said.

by BeerCub on Feb 27, 2012 10:27 AM CST up reply actions  

St. Petersburg?

Did they try and get the White Sox around 1970? I thought they weren’t really on the map til the late ’80s, building the Tropicana Dome to lure a team and that power play is what led the White Sox to get a sweetheart deal with Gov. Thompson to build new Komiskey Park. Then again, maybe they just needed to pass large enough sums of money under the table knowing his history.

I like this part of the topic because it’s getting at the importance of television in the exposure of teams and building their fanbase. Is it any wonder why the Blackhawks were the smallest team when their idiot owner refused to broadcast Blackhawk games despite interest in them? Only that owner’s kid finally reversed that epic bit of stupidity. The Cubs came along at the perfect time with the growth of suburbs and their television contracts whereas the White Sox had the exact opposite (i.e. southern suburban growth didn’t really pick up til the ’90s & ’00s) and had their UHF adventures and dabbling in pay-per-view really pissed off what fans they had.

by ddoubleheader on Feb 27, 2012 9:53 PM CST up reply actions  

You likely are correct about St. Pete not coming into play until Reinsdorf squeezed taxpayers...

…for a new stadium in 1988.

Of the many reports of possible moves that followed the Sox during their 20 years in the wilderness, the one I liked best was Charley O’s very public offer to move his Oakland A’s roster to Chicago to play as the 1976 White Sox. Under the Finley Plan, the old original Comiskey Sox would have been packed up and sold to Seattle interests to settle a lawsuit filed by that city against MLB for moving the expansion Seattle Pilots to Milwaukee after that team’s one disastrous season in 1969.

This transfer would have been great for Chicago baseball had it been approved. Finley presumably would have been able to pay his stars the going rate, and fans here could have enjoyed watching Reggie, Bando, Rudi, Campy, Vida and the rest play in several AL Championship Series while representing Charlie O’s home town of Chicago.

Kenny Holtzman would have been back in town to nail down his customary 20 wins, while Bill North, another ex-Cub, would have been roaming center at Comiskey and leading the league in stolen bases until the productive Finley Sox minor league system brought up another Chicago native, Rickey Henderson, to begin his Hall of Fame career in 1979.

It all made too much sense for Chicago fans, but Phil Wrigley predictably was opposed, while the old guard Chicago media completely rejected the concept while welcoming the return of Bill Veeck as owner of the old, original, and then-moribund Comiskey Sox.

Amazingly, after 15 years in exile, Veeck now represented the interests of baseball’s establishment, ready to screw Finley the same way he himself had been forced out of baseball in 1953 by being denied the chance to move his St. Louis Browns to Milwaukee.

If Charlie O had been able to bring the A’s here, it would have been no contest as to which team ruled Chicago baseball. The Cubs had been mothballed by the Wrigleys in ‘73 at the end of the Santo-Williams Era, Phil was in his dotage, Salty Saltwell was the caretaker GM, and it doesn’t take much imagination to realize that the 1976 Finley Sox would have instantly become the most popular team in town.

"Started hummin' a song from 1962..." – Bob Seger
"The past is never dead. It's not even past." – Faulkner

by ernaga on Feb 27, 2012 10:55 PM CST up reply actions  

Forget Reinsdorf and the Bull and Sox.

Cubs can go it alone on WGN. That takes me back to my earlier question in this thread, is there an opt out clause with CSN? If there is, I would use it. WGN America can fill the hours advertising Cubs games and America’s Funniest Home Videos. Lead Off Man and 10th Inning Show could rule the airways again. Any time you get in bed with 3 other Chicago teams you’re going to have to give and take. WGN makes sense if they can sell advertising and make the bid.

We'll miss you Big Boy. #10 is going into the Hall of Fame!!

by mrcubsfan on Feb 27, 2012 8:39 AM CST reply actions  

I doubt many would want to give up the Bulls

especially with a team fans can really get behind (Rose, Deng, Noah, et al) and which looks like the first promising team since the dismantling of the dynasty back in 1998. Besides, baseball & basketball only briefly overlap in April. It’s smarter programming to have 1 baseball + 1 basketball or hockey for year-round sports.

by ddoubleheader on Feb 27, 2012 9:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Ricketts' best play ...

… might be WGN America itself. With Tribune floundering, it could be had for a song relative to what it would cost to build a new cable channel from scratch, to say nothing of the valuable carriage on most basic tiers around the country.

Tribune hasn’t had a good plan for what is known as WGN America since it lost the rights to air the WB programming on national basis. Tom Ricketts could program it just as well.

by bourbon_and_branch on Feb 27, 2012 6:16 PM CST reply actions  

That's a good idea actually

buy out WGN America and turn it into a basic cable Cubs channel but instead of dull sports talk shows and clip shows outside the baseball season and outside of baseball times, it could have a mix of reruns of older shows and movies. Can’t have first-run syndication like the old days since it’s dead now. Trying to push a nationwide Cubs RSN would be bad but owning and having this kind of configuration for a basic cable channel is genius for keeping the Cubs at nationwide exposure.

by ddoubleheader on Feb 27, 2012 10:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Here's the catch, though.

I doubt MLB would allow the Cubs to essentially broadcast every game nationally, just because they had the good fortune to buy a cable channel. You’d probably see the other owners institute some kind of rule that the Cubs couldn’t carry certain WGN games nationally, just as the Bulls can’t now for some of their WGN games.

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by Al Yellon on Feb 28, 2012 8:11 AM CST up reply actions  

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