Yoenis Cespedes
"Cuban defector may go as high as six years, $60 million."
Don't know about you, but that seems a bit steep for my liking.
4 months ago
ubercubsfan
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def steep....but if theoHyoerMcCleod think he's worth it, im on board.
i’d still prefer Soler. i think he fits in with the BJax, Rizzo, Castro core a lot more. of couse i’m good with them breaking the bank a bit and getting both. we won’t have a chance to spend internationally like this again, so why not?
If he did some sort of split contract I'd be in favor of it.
I got a feeling the Cubs would be paying for 2 years at roughly 10MM each year to get minor league seasoning. From what I read everywhere, he’s playing equivalent of A/A+ ball. If he were signed, he may need to play a whole season at AA (age 27) then maybe a season at AAA with June/July callup to MLB. If he were just 3 years younger I’d be much more in favor.
the way i see it, they wouldnt sign him unless they felt he was ready or close to ready.
i believe i read somewhere McCleod said theyd want to get him 100 ABs in the minors. I think he’s in AAA for a month or two and then at Wrigley. they wouldnt sign him if hes 2 years away IMHO.
Since we didn't sign any big dollar FAs...
And presumably have some salary room to work with, I wonder if we could frontload a contract to make it more palatable in the long run.
Jim, is that you?
Fukudometer: Created 3/31/08 Wrigley Debut 4/5/08 WGN and Japan TV Debut 4/6/08 Sun Times Debut: 4/20/08 Coffee Table Debut: 7/17/08
(meaning that Hendry has now done a 180 after learning his lessons from too many backloaded contracts.)
Fukudometer: Created 3/31/08 Wrigley Debut 4/5/08 WGN and Japan TV Debut 4/6/08 Sun Times Debut: 4/20/08 Coffee Table Debut: 7/17/08
Thanks for the clarification...
I won’t complain about being characterized as an anti-Hendry.
by EcoGeek on Feb 7, 2012 10:32 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
It wouldn't benefit the player
even if it were.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
Yes, it would.
Money now > Money later
Step Three: Patience. The plan is in place.
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 7, 2012 9:45 PM CST up reply actions
sorry but people that make 80 mill
over a short period and now have nothing a f*cking idiots
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
No, it wouldn't.
Future raises are based on current salary.
4M 8M 9M 11M 13M 15M puts you at an arbitration level of 15M
15M 13M 11M 9M 8M 4M puts you at an arbitration level of 4 M
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
Yes, it would
The time-value of money is much more relevant than the arbitration level. The player would simply become a free agent again rather than going to arbitration.
Step Three: Patience. The plan is in place.
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 9, 2012 11:42 AM CST up reply actions
Either I'm right
or it isn’t legal.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
I'd be awfully wary of that number.
I just don’t see how it matches with what we need position wise, how his age matches up with our next window, or how his skillset matches what we are trying to do. I would be all over throwing too much money at soler.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
+1
Leery of paying 60M a 26 year old never having played above what’s considered A ball level. Oh well…………….I guess as long as there’s a full no trade clause in the deal it’ll be ok. Seriously, I still have my $$ on Soler being signed
I agree..i almost get the sense, and i could just be making this up, they are showing a ton of interest in Cespedes
to take the focus off Soler? drive the price up on one, while we really are aggressive for the guy that they want more so. idk, its a thought.
$60M is a pipe dream
If anyone gives that to him I’d be shocked. If JedStein hand it over that would be the first move they’d make that I’d question/be reasonably upset with. Can’t we just get Soler, be happy, and yell SOLER POWER from the bleachers?
~Ronald Reagan has held the two most demeaning jobs in the country; President of the United States and radio broadcaster for the Chicago Cubs~ George F. Will
He's begging to come to the Cubs
Right from the start of that article
Cubans outfielder Yoenis Cespedes’ next step toward
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
6 years, $60M is getting pretty close to the "...point of stupidity"
In theory, money should be no object for the Cubs given roster changes and recent payrolls, but of course in reality, money is always an object. So if I put on my TheoJed hat and ruminate for a bit, a couple of things have to happen in order for this kind of outlay to make sense to me.
1) Cespedes needs to be MLB ready sometime this year. I’d think maybe half a season at AAA and then brought up to majors after trading deadline. Worst case: start season at AA to get comfortable, a quick move to AAA and then a September callup to majors.
2) Byrd gets moved by trading deadline (more likely) or Soriano gets traded/released (less likely).
If I’m confident the above can happen, then it’s probably worth overspending a bit on Cespedes.
In the meantime, I’m still going all in on Soler.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
6 years, $60M is getting pretty close to the “…point of stupidity”
Guess he’s headed to the Marlins, then.
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by Al Yellon on Feb 7, 2012 10:19 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
If I had to make a prediction right now...
…I’d say Cespedes will go to the Marlins. They’re going to make a ridiculous bid and he fits in perfectly with their desperate need to market that new stadium in every way possible. I hope we get Soler, because he fits in better with our 2014 window anyway.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
possibly Theo keeps forcing teams to overpay in faux bidding
Taking the air out of the future.
A friend once told me: "I don't buy the idea that a team learns anything from a loss, the only thing they learn is how to lose games."---Knight
Game, ...
…set, and match to Al.
"Sir,--It has been wittily remarked that there are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third and most aggravated is statistics." *The National Observer* (June 13, 1891): p. 93-94.
Are you sure that it would be stupid to give him that kind of deal?
Granted, six years is a long commitment, but $10 million a year isn’t crazy money in baseball terms. It’s what the Cardinals are paying Carlos Beltran to be their second best outfield bat (third best, if Berkman is still in the outfield).
As I said below, I don’t really know how to rate what would be too much for an international player.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
depends on what you think his ceiling is, I guess.
as well as how you view the rest of the outfield “supply”, i.e. can we adequately source it internally. Or if we go outside, are there better uses for that $10M or better bang for the buck if you want to spend a different amount. Balance that with other needs that some of that $60M could go towards, i.e. SP next year.
Generally speaking though, I’d be more inclined to approach stupidity levels were he a SS, C or SP.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
or specific to the Cubs situation, if he played 3B.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Oh, and probably depends on how soon he'll be MLB-ready.
agreed that $10M a year isn’t exactly crazy money, but if he spends a full year in the minors, now we’re talking $12M a year. More than a year in the minors and that amount goes higher.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Agreed, on all points.
I would note that the Cubs are set at short and (sort of) catcher, and they seem to be very optimistic about Ian Stewart. They do have BJax, but other than that, I don’t think there are many outfield prospects with much value.
If Cespedes gets $60 million over six years, you’re damn right that he should be in the majors in 2012. No argument there. The argument/question is whether, on Feb. 7, we could evaluate a player coming from Cuba to determine whether he’s being overpaid.
I doubt we would be able to do that credibly.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Outfield prospects of value...
What about Matt Szczur? I thought he’s supposed to have a higher ceiling than BJax (though he’s a few years away from the 25 man roster)
Oh, good call.
Forgot about him.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Soler, Szczur, Jackson
Has a nice ring to it.
Outfield may be our deepest position.
Sure we don’t have a great system, but Szczur could be a pretty strong CF, and we have a ton of high upside in the lower minors.
But we are lacking in corner power
It is wonderful that the Cubs will have a procession of center fielders developing from Jackson to Szczur to Ha to Easterling to Dunston to Chen to Martin. Yet only Jackson and Golden seem to have 30 HR potential among the OF. Maybe Martin has the raw power, not sure about him. Soler would be a welcome addition if he has the chance to provide elite offense.
In no way am I saying we shouldn't go after Cubans because of minor league outfielders.
But to say we don’t have any OF with value outside of Jackson is way off, and even if we miss out on both Cubans we could still have good young outfielders coming up over the next few years. But Soler or Cespedes would vault right up along Jackson at the top of the pecking order, no doubt.
Not sure if you are replying directly to me...
But if so, I came no where close to saying we have no OF value outside of Jackson. I said we have don’t have OF plus power outside of Jackson and Golden. Soler adds something the system is definitely short on. That said, the huge number of true CF in the system is truly an asset. Even a 20% success rate on reaching ceiling would give the Cubs a legit starting CF or 2.
It was a reference to Elgato's comment above.
And yes, lots of interesting CF potential is nice. You could add Zapata, Baez, and maybe even Devoss to your list of interesting CF prospects above. There are up to ten CF prospects that are at least mildly intriguing top to bottom, by far our deepest position.
i wouldnt be shocked to see Lake moved to CF, like Upton was.
apparently, Lake has grown another inch or 2 which puts him in the 6’3"-6’4" range. with fielding problems as is, i wouldnt mind seeing him try to transition there if not 3B
where do i get
these theojed hats?
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Feb 7, 2012 12:51 PM CST up reply actions
If this is the type of contract
then no thanks. Save the money just in case Hamels becomes free agent next year and go balls deep to sign him.
Not saying we should necessarily pay that much for Cespedes ...
but the Cubs have a lot of money coming off the books after 2012. Paying Cespedes $10 million wouldn’t block the Cubs from getting Hamels next offseason.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Maybe a little...
But I don’t consider 40-60 million on an high-end international free agent any great shakes these days. Seems pretty standard, actually. Painful to say, but if teams don’t want to spend that kind of money, they probably shouldn’t be playing in that market.
The thing is
… there are widely varying opinions about whether Cespedes is really a “high-end international free agent”, emphasis on “high-end”.
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The general consensus seems to be
that he’d immediately slot into the 7-15 range of the top 100 prospects across all of baseball. I’m not saying $60 mil isn’t steep, but I’d say he’s pretty high end.
"I wouldn't know a steroid from a reefer." -Lou Piniella
And that's based strictly on
… what, exactly? His record against major league quality competition?
Um… try again.
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well isnt it based on what we base other prospects on?
success at their level? Strasburg was considered a major prospect based on his success against MLB comp? not quite.. San Diego State isnt exactly in a juggernaut college conference. and Darvish? most Japanese hitters that come over here struggle, so what are we basing his success on? the things you say about Cespedes can be said about any other prospect. people base their opinions on him on the body of work he has in whatever league he is in.
by MDavis on Feb 7, 2012 2:52 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
The thing is
… Strasburg was viewed in the context of other college level prospects, a known quantity to MLB scouts, and he dominated that level.
Same with Darvish.
It’s really unclear what Cuban competition equates to. Some think it’s no better than High-A. Plenty of hitters dominate High-A who never make it to the major leagues.
Spending $60 million on that is just — well, almost stupid.
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Agents leverage market buzz as much as they can.
And GMs are GMs for a reason. They have resources that focus entirely on player valuation. If the market bears out that this particular individual is worth 6 years/$60 million, then that’s all there is to it. If they agree with your assessment, then the contract price will be lower, or there won’t be any contract.
Fair enough.
Personally, I wouldn’t do that. There could be a GM (or more) that would.
I think he’s headed to the Marlins.
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There's no way to know if it's stupid or brilliant -- not from where we sit.
None of us (or, at least, very, very few of us) has ever seen Cespedes play. Saying he’s not worth $10 million a year based on nothing is just as wrong as saying he IS worth $10 million a year based on nothing.
Now, from where we’re sitting, we CAN assess what the Cubs’ needs are. But, that’s a small point in all of this.
This is a situation where we have to hope TheoJed have done their homework. If they pay $60 million, they must think Cespedes is worth it and until we see Cespedes play regularly, how can we honestly say they’re wrong?
Note that I’m not saying we have to take all FA signings on faith. But assessing international signings seems kind of pointless — unless we’re judging a signing based on apparent team needs — i.e. if the Cubs signed a first baseman to a 6-year deal after the Rizzo trade.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Also, are there any fair comps?
I’m thinking about the MB signing, and how that same offseason, Adam Dunn signed for 2 years, $20 million and Bobby Abreu signed for something like $5 million.
In other words, the Bradley deal looked bad because similar players signed the same offseason got far less. I’m not sure there’s a similar player whose signing can be used as a gauge for Cespedes’.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
DDJ is a known quantity, and a lot older.
It’s hard to gauge Cespedes’ upside, but some apparently think it’s higher than DDJ’s. Hence the talk of more money.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
There is a good argument that the upside is higher
But enough for 4 more years and $50M more? With serious uncertainty based on lack of information? Those are the issues around Cespedes.
That said, I suspect the $60M is an agent’s pipe dream, fashioned into a press quote or twit.
Yup, very possible.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Agreed elgato
We have no clue what he will be worth. If they sign him, we just wait and see if he hits enough to be worth his contract.
As far as the Cubs going forward, Cespedes fits in perfectly in the outfield plan. By the reports I have seen, Cespedes can play CF and has the plus arm of a RF. While DeJesus and Soriano are currently road blocks, the future is Jackson who can play CF and has a solid arm. However, assuming he develops, Szczur is the best CF of the 3 with an average arm. If all 3 work out, then an OF with Jackson in LF, Szczur in CF, and Cespedes in RF would be one of the best defensive outfields in baseball. Ha also is thought of as a plus CF defender who could emerge if Szczur does not reach his ceiling. He could be a perfect 4th OF though if everyone approaches their ceiling.
If Jackson, Szczur and Ha reach their ceiling ...
my guess is Cespedes would be traded.
And it’s not like DDJ would be hard to move.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
That goes back to what Cespedes becomes
Ha is thought to have a max of 15 homers in him and doesn’t walk much. If Cespedes is a 25 HR guy with a good enough OBP, Ha won’t move him. And Ha would be an ideal 4th OF for a contender and under club control. Now if Cespedes isn’t’ outproducing Ha, then it seems that Ha who is described as the best OF defender in the system could force such a move.
Cespedes is probably a fourth outfielder, at least for us.
He’s similar to Vitters offensively, and wouldn’t be playing CF over Szczur or Bjax.
As a hitter...
Absolutely Ha ceiling does not match those of Szczur and Jackson. However, Ha is regarded as the best CF of the 3. If we are lucky enough that all 3 each their ceiling and there isn’t other competition, Ha would only possibly be bumped from CF because he has the best arm of the 3.
So it would be LF Jackson CF Szczur RF Ha
Or LF Szczur CF Ha RF Jackson
Ha is a solid CF no doubt, but from what I've heard Szczur is the best all around Cf f the three.
And I’m still guessing Jackson would play center over Ha too, unless we have a very strong RF arm already, and even then it’s close.
Now that I look at a few sources...
BA talks of Ha like he is the best defender in the system with plus range and arm. When looking at Prospectus or FanGraphs it seems Ha is more of a twiner. I have seen a couple nice catches from Ha ranging into the gaps. Any body else with sources or direct evidence of Ha’s range.
Ha is definitely better defensively than Jackson in CF.
I would think it would be close between him and Szczur.
I think this is where
The new emphasis on scouting has to come into play. If our scouts tell us this guy’s the real deal, $60M may be worth it. I’m not necessarily convinced, but we’re a team with more money than trading pieces, and with the new CBA, the window for outright buying Latin American FAs is closing. If we were having this conversation in 2013, it would come down to a draft pick, not bankroll (a change that doesn’t exactly work to our advantage).
$60/6 seems a bit pricey for someone who has only seen the level of competition that Cespedes has, and I won’t be too upset if we let the Marlins get closer to the “point of stupidity” than we’re willing to offer. That said, this is one of the few ways to (potentially) substantially improve the team for the forseeable future with just the checkbook, which just might warrant taking a chance on Cespedes, even at $60/6.
by EcoGeek on Feb 7, 2012 4:09 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
There many reasons why Straburg was considered so valuable
His dominance against other college players was one of them, but it was hardly all of it. Scouts also timed his fastball, assessed his curveball, looked at his mound presence, and concluded he was outstanding.
Had Strasburg never gone to college, I believe he would have been a first rounder just based on his tryouts. I have nothing to base it on, but I would bet that’s correct. More surely, however, is my belief that Strasburg’s dominance against college players was only one of many factors that went into his assessment.
Now, with Cespedas, we don’t have that one component of adequate competition, but we do have scouts that have looked at him and made a judgement on based on the skills he brings to the table … and they projected. I’m fine with assuming that their assessment is based on solid baseball knowledge. Should they feel that Cespedas has a very good chance of being a productive major league player, I would have no ability to prove them wrong.
I hope the Cubs sign him. I get jittery at $60M though.
by jerry morales rules on Feb 7, 2012 10:48 PM CST up reply actions
Well, in fairness, we do know something about elite Cuban players
Forget the league Cespedes played in. The track record for the top guys from the Cuban national team has been pretty good, whether from the success of pitchers like Livan and Orlando Hernandez (who clearly had no MLB competition prior to their defection, but did well right off the bat) or more recently Aroldis Chapman (who is raw but has probably surpassed Cincy’s expectations to this point), to position players like Kendrys Morales, Alexei Ramirez, Yuniesky Betancourt, and Dayan Viciedo.
It seems to me that in addition to traditional evaluation methods (watching film, putting them through workouts), a scout/GM can make reasonable evaluations about Cespedes, Soler and others by seeing how they stacked up against the same competition as some of these other guys. That doesn’t necessarily translate to “$60 million would be a good investment” — the White Sox signed Viciedo and Ramirez for much, much less — but it also doesn’t mean you’re making a completely blind leap.
by Orval Overall on Feb 8, 2012 8:58 AM CST up reply actions
yuniesky betancourt is the opposite of success
Just wee-un.
by jesus christos on Feb 8, 2012 3:30 PM CST up reply actions
Somewhere out there...
…there’s a Royals fan with this signature line.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
I'm not sure we'll be in a position to judge this move very well.
I keep thinking about the 2007-08 offseason, when many of us (myself included) were very excited that the Cubs landed a big-name Japanese outfielder — even though the price tag was steep.
But Cespedes and Fukudome are not normal free agents. Then, like now, none of us here had seen the player actually play (other than a YouTube clip or three) and any evaluation of their numbers decidedly falls into the apples-and-oranges category.. Four years ago, we took on faith that Hendry (and, yes, other GMs) accurately gauged Fukudome’s talent and that the big contract was warranted. But, as we all know, the contract ended up being a bust.
Because of that, I don’t have any way of knowing how much Cespedes would be worth to a major league team. I know some posters have tried to connect the dots by saying Cuban ball is about on par with AA … but that doesn’t mean much to me.
I’m not saying we should take all of TheoJed’s decisions on faith. I’m just saying I don’t know how to fairly rate this move, unless the money is insanely low or high.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
by elgato on Feb 7, 2012 10:38 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
We may find out soon enough...
Should be in the States by this afternoon.
When he was playing this winter,
he was being mystified by anything that wasn’t straight. I kept having Fonzie Soriano flashbacks. Then he hit a 97 MPH fastball halfway back to Cuba.
I would have no problem cheering for Cespedes, but would feel better giving 20 to Soler (on a minor league deal) than spending over 30 for Cespedes.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
by timh815 on Feb 7, 2012 3:45 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
What is holding up Soler from signing?
Is he just waiting till Cespedes signs?
Does anyone else see Soriano picking his nose?
still waiting for residency i think.
and either way im sure he’ll wait til Cespedes signs.
Let the Marlins pay him
Even if they sign him to a 6 year deal as reported here, you just know they’ll be shopping him and the rest of the team to anyone with spare cash by 2014.
Let's start a collection to buy Al season tickets...
I never blame myself when I'm not hitting. I just blame the bat and if it keeps up, I change bats. After all, if I know it isn't my fault that I'm not hitting, how can I get mad at myself?
- Yogi Berra
by LongLiveHarryCaray on Feb 8, 2012 12:35 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Somehow, I don't think there will be a waiting list.
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I never blame myself when I'm not hitting. I just blame the bat and if it keeps up, I change bats. After all, if I know it isn't my fault that I'm not hitting, how can I get mad at myself?
- Yogi Berra
by LongLiveHarryCaray on Feb 9, 2012 12:05 PM CST up reply actions
Fan:: "Uh, can I have
the four game package?"
Sales rep: “We can get you the seventh row behind the visiting dugout, or the third row behind the Marlins dugout.”
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
Does anyone know
how Cespedes’ numbers compare to those of the other recent Cuban defectors? I’m not sure I’ve seen that comparison, and that would be useful to know. We may not know what his competition was, but we do know how others who played at that level fared in the MLB.
There really isn't a direct comp for Cespedes
… a guy with his presumed abilities, at his age.
Dayan Viciedo would be about the only one, but he was much younger when he defected.
Maybe Alexei Ramirez, but he’s a shortstop. He’s had a decent MLB career. Of course, he got a lot less money than Cespedes is rumored to be asking for.
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Not a direct comp
but I meant if we could look at 4 or 5 guys numbers in Cuba, and their numbers here, we might be able to draw some inferences about how he might fare here.
As you say, his age vs the competition makes things more difficult, but it might give us a clue what to expect.
Hideo Nomo
Got a lot less than Matsuzaka or Darvish. This is a game we could play without an end.
The fact is that the price for Cuban defectors and Japanese imports is much, much more than it was in the past. A guy with exactly Ramirez’ resume would go for much more right now than the $5M he originally signed for.
The markets for these players is very fluid. Right now, it’s higher than it’s ever been by a wide margin. Maybe 3 or 4 years form now we’ll think that prices like this for players like this is crazy. However, that doesn’t change what the market is right now. Nor does it modify what other players have signed for in the past.
From a financial perspective, quite simply, there is no comparison for Cespedas. The only comp for Darvish is Matsuzaka, and that’s not a positive comp, yet, that didn’t stop you from recommending the Cubs signing Darvish. I’m not arguing your support for Darvish. I am arguing that there is any financial precedence fro a guy like Cespedas. This is a totally brand new market.
by jerry morales rules on Feb 11, 2012 10:37 AM CST up reply actions
Marlins showed Cespedes their new ball park yesterday...
Somehow, that strikes me as a bad idea for someone you’re trying to convince to play for you.
Fish tanks behind home plate? Really?
I almost want Chris Carpenter...
…to throw a wild, 100-mph fastball and shatter the glass. Just so we can watch the Marlins ground crew come scrambling out and try to patch the hole before the tanks explode and engulf the field in fish water.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
As if the fish don't suffer enough having a front row seat to the HR celebration
I never blame myself when I'm not hitting. I just blame the bat and if it keeps up, I change bats. After all, if I know it isn't my fault that I'm not hitting, how can I get mad at myself?
- Yogi Berra
by LongLiveHarryCaray on Feb 9, 2012 11:35 AM CST up reply actions























