What To Do With Alfonso Soriano
by mikeschieve on Feb 9, 2012 8:17 AM CST
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Obviously Alfonso Soriano does not deserve to make $19 million this year or next, or even the following year. If he didn't make so much money then we probably wouldn't need to debate it, but here we are seemingly stuck.
If you were going into a room what would offer him? Would it be a one year or multiple years? At his age I would probably offer him a one year deal worth $4.5 million. Why? He still has some value and well I have to since we are stuck with him until TheoJed locate another team willing to take him on. He doesn't play the greatest defense and according to his Baseball Reference WAR this is about what he was worth last year. He doesn't hit for average, get on base all that much, but his bat still has a little power. How consistent he can remain in this category remains to be seen.
Us as fans miss all the behind the scenes happenings with the Cubs. I would still think that TheoJed have had some conversations about what they can or will do with Soriano. Obviously they can't lower his contract, but they can trade him. I saw an interesting deal proposed on Clubhouse Confidential the other day and thought hey it could happen. The Soriano talk is about 1 min in, right after they propose trading Hanley Ramirez for Miguel Cabrera.
So, what will the Cubs do with Alfonso Soriano? I find it hard to believe he will play out the remaining years on his contract and move onto a new team if he could find a taker. I do feel that TheoJed will find a team to take him, probably in the AL so he can DH. It might take someone getting hurt before a team is in need. Like Fielder signing with Detroit after Victor Martinez goes down.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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I feel like I've heard people talk about this before...
by Arbusto on Feb 9, 2012 2:23 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
♫I'll be seeing you in all the old familiar places♪
And we’ll be seeing Soriano in left field for the Cubs on Opening Day.
Who knows what happens in 2013 and beyond?
Have the spring training games started yet?
Step Three: Patience. The plan is in place.
Have the spring training games started yet?
Pitchers and catchers = 9 more days. Soon.
Regarding Soriano, I think perhaps with only two years left on the deal, after this year they might be willing to eat it.
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Nope they haven't yet
I wish, 6 1/2 weeks until leave for ST
The Stat Pack
by shoemile on Oct 21, 2011 10:10 PM CDT
by Madison Cub Fan on Feb 9, 2012 4:10 PM CST up reply actions
Come on, now.
If the Cubs didn’t sign him, there wouldn’t be any division championship banners since ‘03. Let’s get real here, it was a good signing for two years, but just like all of Hendry’s contracts, it was too long. I don’t know if Soriano would have taken less years, but he was the best hitter on the team in 07 and 08, and you have to respect the fact that without him, the Cubs maybe don’t make the playoffs both those years.
Supporter of Carlos Austin Boozer, and I don't want to see Dwight Howard in a Bulls uniform. Call me crazy.
by wrigleyrocker12 on Feb 9, 2012 5:41 PM CST up reply actions
with a time machine
the cubs can do whatever the hell they want to build a team
Just wee-un.
by jesus christos on Feb 9, 2012 5:56 PM CST up reply actions
I do not approve of your methods.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
by daver on Feb 9, 2012 5:31 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Just tapping into a rich vein of Chicago history
After all, St. Valentine’s Day is just around the corner.
No, no...
…you’re supposed to say, “Yeah? Well, you’re not from Chicago.”
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
Sveum's club house speech on 4/5/12?
Sveum: A man becomes preeminent, he’s expected to have enthusiasms. Enthusiasms, enthusiasms… What are mine? What draws my admiration? What is that which gives me joy? Baseball! A man stands alone at the plate. This is the time for what? For individual achievement. There he stands alone. But in the field, what? Part of a team. Teamwork… Looks, throws, catches, hustles. Part of one big team. Bats himself the live-long day, Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, and so on. If his team don’t field… what is he? You follow me? No one. Sunny day, the stands are full of fans. What does he have to say? I’m goin’ out there for myself. But… I get nowhere unless the team wins.
Cubs: Team!
Not quite sure what happens next…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Nice, and this will be Bosio's speech to the pitchers, apparently:
You wanna know how to get Capone? They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That’s the Chicago way! And that’s how you get Capone. Now do you want to do that? Are you ready to do that? I’m offering you a deal. Do you want this deal?
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
How about this one...
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne’er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs’d they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin’s day.
Alfonso Soriano's job this year
… is to hold a spot long enough to give us the rights to Brett Jackson, and eventually Szczur and others, for year longer than we might normally.
We are not going to win this year. We are (re – sshhhhh) building this team where it needs to begin, the lower levels. Soriano is worth absolutely nothing to any team. He was ranked the worst left fielder in the Central yesterday by somebody, and who can disagree? He can do nothing but hit home runs, and he’s not even all that good at that either. Low OBP, bad defense, lots of strikeouts, only hits bad pitching.
Play Soriano this year, just to buy us more future time with our prospects. I say we release him in June of 2013.
Only reason to release Soriano right now is to remove his influence from the young players. And I’m not talking about clubhouse character, I’m talking about showing people how to play ball the right way.
-- Jerome Horwitz
Nonononono
Soriano is worth absolutely nothing to any team. He was ranked the worst left fielder in the Central yesterday by somebody, and who can disagree?
First of all, Soriano should be at least 4th on that list, and second, I’m sure several AL teams dying for some pop at DH would take him gladly, assuming the Cubs eat most of the contract.
Supporter of Carlos Austin Boozer, and I don't want to see Dwight Howard in a Bulls uniform. Call me crazy.
by wrigleyrocker12 on Feb 9, 2012 5:45 PM CST up reply actions
I think Theo is...
A. Waiting until the trade deadline to see his value go up or have some team get desperate or..
B. Can’t get a team to take on his salary.
Supporter of Carlos Austin Boozer, and I don't want to see Dwight Howard in a Bulls uniform. Call me crazy.
by wrigleyrocker12 on Feb 9, 2012 8:27 PM CST up reply actions
You have nothing to support this.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
And you have nothing to support that no teams want him at all.
Supporter of Carlos Austin Boozer, and I don't want to see Dwight Howard in a Bulls uniform. Call me crazy.
by wrigleyrocker12 on Feb 10, 2012 2:46 PM CST up reply actions
It's all speculation.
Supporter of Carlos Austin Boozer, and I don't want to see Dwight Howard in a Bulls uniform. Call me crazy.
by wrigleyrocker12 on Feb 10, 2012 2:46 PM CST up reply actions
but your speculation seems to have no supporting evidence
while the other side does have a modicum of common sense on theirs
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Feb 11, 2012 9:54 AM CST up reply actions
He's still a Cub, isn't he?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
by elgato on Feb 10, 2012 2:57 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Ricketts said he would eat a massive amount of Soriano's salary to move him.
The Cubs said they were going to try and move Soriano. Soriano is still a Cub.
Our evidence is a lot more supportive than yours…
by bdlugz on Feb 10, 2012 3:24 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
That's an oversimplification.
A massive amount of salary doesn’t mean that an AL team has room in their budget to handle the remainder. They’re trying to cut their losses on a contract that’s vastly over the market value for that player. Even so, they may be willing to wait until their deal, on their terms, finds a partner. Playing Soriano through the end of July, assuming payments are evenly dispursed on a per-game basis (inaccurate, but simplest way to arrive at numbers to be used in this discussion) shows that the Cubs will have paid $12.9 MM of this contract year’s $18MM. The remaining contract for the year is valued at $5.1MM, with the total remaining contract’s value at $41.1MM. Compare that to today’s value of $54MM, for a team with some close-but-not-quite-ML-ready outfielders in the minors.
Now, assuming that the Zambrano trade is indicative for the kind of loss the team is willing to take, I’ll make the assumption that we will need to pay approximately 86% of Soriano’s trade value. To trade him now, the club would send along $46.5MM, leaving the balance of the contract at 3 years, $7.5MM (or $2.5MM/yr). If we were to hold him until July, 86% of the contract’s remaining value (following my above assumptions) would be $35.4MM, leaving $5.7MM remaining. Continuing to assume even disbursement, the team assuming the contract would pay $1.6MM for the remainder of 2012, and approximately $2.05MM per year for the remaining two years.
The real cost of playing Soriano to the Cubs, when comparing these to figures, looks to be about $1.8MM saved over the course of 2012 through July – IF they were to trade him before the season began. That’s 86% of the $12.9MM paid to Soriano to that point of the season. However, as you can see, the value of the remaining contract, assuming the same ratio is applied from the Zambrano trade, makes Soriano’s AAV more appealing. Couple that with trade-deadline desperation, and you may actually get more for Soriano come July than you would today.
Granted, my analysis is chock full of assumptions, as any outside analysis is bound to be, but you can see how trading a player is much more than “JUST EAT THE MONEY AND GTFO!”
...
“I think that’s unlikely (that he’ll start the season with another team),” Hoyer said on “The Carmen, Jurko & Harry Show” on ESPN 1000. "Our hope certainly … I know Sori’s been working really hard this offseason … our hope is obviously you want him to get on base a little more. The power was there last year, the RBIs were there. Obviously it really comes down to defense and we’re hoping with some better conditioning and some better health, that he can be a little better out there.
“We don’t want to do anything to hurt our pitchers, but we do believe there’s something left in Sori.”
Supporter of Carlos Austin Boozer, and I don't want to see Dwight Howard in a Bulls uniform. Call me crazy.
by wrigleyrocker12 on Feb 10, 2012 2:50 PM CST up reply actions
Let me paraphrase that for you, since you seem to be missing the point of what he said...
[We’ve done everything in our power to trade Soriano, but we just can’t unload him. At this point, all we can do is hope that he can get on base more often. At least he can still hit some home runs for us. We’re working really hard with him on his defense, but we’re not going to leave him out there if he’s killing the pitching staff in the process. We really hope that he’s got a good first half left in him so we can unload him]
by bdlugz on Feb 10, 2012 3:26 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
Also, ^this^
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Well done.
Google should hire you to design a software program just for baseball GMs.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
I think you're believing what you want to.
The Cubs won’t save THAT much money by trading him now as opposed to at the deadline. Who is gonna play left if Sori is gone? Reed? If they want to extend BJax, he can’t be up here until May I believe (or it maybe June).
Supporter of Carlos Austin Boozer, and I don't want to see Dwight Howard in a Bulls uniform. Call me crazy.
by wrigleyrocker12 on Feb 10, 2012 4:16 PM CST up reply actions
Will the difference between Soriano and Reed in left field ...
keep the Cubs out of the postseason, or something?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I never said that I thought we should trade Soriano at 80% cost to ourselves, at least not to start the year
You were assuming that. I’m simply trying to show you the evidence to go against what you’re claiming.
But as you say, believe what you want to.
I'm not trying to dispute any evidence either.
But I find it hard to believe nobody would take him for $3 million.
Supporter of Carlos Austin Boozer, and I don't want to see Dwight Howard in a Bulls uniform. Call me crazy.
by wrigleyrocker12 on Feb 11, 2012 12:11 PM CST up reply actions
Ok, put aside your Cubs allegiance for a moment
Maybe you have a second team you cheer for. If not, just pretend.
Pretend that you really want that team to do well. If they’re a perennial contender, then pretend you want them to win it all. If they’re on the edge, pretend you want them to “go for it”. If they’re up-and-coming, pretend you want them to at least be competitive for the wild card(s). If they suck, well, pretend you want them to cut the dead wood and rebuild with youth and talent.
Now ask yourself as a fan of whatever pretend scenario above you’ve aligned yourself with… Would you pay $3M for Soriano?
And go ahead and repeat all that with a GM hat on instead of a fan’s. I think your answer will be the same.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Yes, I would.
The Braves are now paying Matt Diaz a little over $2 million to be a 4th, maybe 5th, outfielder. You can’t possibly tell me you wouldn’t rather have Sori (I know, I lowered the price $1 million, but Ricketts said he would eat almost all of the contract).
Supporter of Carlos Austin Boozer, and I don't want to see Dwight Howard in a Bulls uniform. Call me crazy.
by wrigleyrocker12 on Feb 11, 2012 2:41 PM CST up reply actions
I know he's not managing the Braves anymore, but somewhere Bobby Cox just LOLed
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Name a GM
and I’ll send the men in the clean white coats.
Seriously, who? No contender wants him, he would be a minus. No small-market team wants him, they are better off playing their prospects. He’s too poor a player to be any kind of a draw. He’s just bad.
Name at least one scenario, and I will attempt to understand.
-- Jerome Horwitz
by KO Stradivarius on Feb 9, 2012 6:24 PM CST up reply actions
what does it say about me that I first read that as
“the cleveland steamers”
For some fans, Kerry Wood is that dollap of pumpkin paste.
by Nunyabidness on Feb 14, 2012 10:50 AM CST up reply actions
I find it hard to believe that someone wouldn't take him on if the Cubs eat 80% of his salary.
Problem is, Theo doesn’t want to do that yet. No way he stays until his contract ends.
Supporter of Carlos Austin Boozer, and I don't want to see Dwight Howard in a Bulls uniform. Call me crazy.
by wrigleyrocker12 on Feb 9, 2012 8:30 PM CST up reply actions
tom said that he's willing to eat most of the contract
Just wee-un.
by jesus christos on Feb 9, 2012 8:38 PM CST up reply actions
Then do you really believe nobody would take him for $3 million?
Supporter of Carlos Austin Boozer, and I don't want to see Dwight Howard in a Bulls uniform. Call me crazy.
by wrigleyrocker12 on Feb 9, 2012 8:57 PM CST up reply actions
Well, is he still on the Cubs?
That should answer your questions.
But what makes you believe that Theo would deal him AT ANY COST?
It’s not ridiculous to think his value would be greater at the deadline.
Supporter of Carlos Austin Boozer, and I don't want to see Dwight Howard in a Bulls uniform. Call me crazy.
by wrigleyrocker12 on Feb 9, 2012 10:24 PM CST up reply actions
You're just guessing.
Considering the trades we’ve seen this offseason, if another team would take Soriano and 20 percent of his contract, it’s pretty obvious that TheoJed would have done that.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
So who are these mysterious teams?
I’m sure Soriano has been merchandised around MLB for the price of a pack of used chewing gum and some small salary relief. No takers.
maybe the A's?
last week the A’s said they need a DH and have been looking for some time. maybe Beane would take Soriano if the Cubs would pay for three years. Just speculating on the news recently out of Oakland.
wccubfan
They have a ton of extra outfielders now.
I’d guess one of them – maybe Seth Smith – will wind up a DH.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
the A's are stocking up on prospects again, including Cespedes
I never blame myself when I'm not hitting. I just blame the bat and if it keeps up, I change bats. After all, if I know it isn't my fault that I'm not hitting, how can I get mad at myself?
- Yogi Berra
by LongLiveHarryCaray on Feb 14, 2012 11:44 AM CST up reply actions
I believe he's expected to start with the season with the big league club.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
He will be given every chance
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Feb 15, 2012 7:39 AM CST up reply actions
It's too bad we can't put him out on loan like soccer teams do.
Some team might be willing to take on THIS year, and only this year, for $3-5MM or so. But no one is ever going to want his 2013 or 2014 at any price, really.
Unfortunately, we can’t structure some sort of deal in which we loan him out for this year in order to save money, and then they send him back and we get to do the whole thing over again. (Or CAN we? Is there a rule against it?)
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I just totally found out that NHL teams can actually loan out players as well
What the hell MLB, get your shit together!
UMD Bulldogs: 2011 NCAA DI Men's Hockey Nat'l Champions; 2008 & 2010 NCAA DII Football Nat'l Champions
If it's a "loan" like I do with money for my brother-in-law, then I'm all for it.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Feb 10, 2012 3:00 PM CST up reply actions
WIN THE NL CENTRAL.
There will be no excuses for not doing something the right way. - Dale Sveum
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 9, 2012 4:56 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Soriano is going to be here on Opening Day, out in left field as usual...
I don’t know why people keep bringing this up (no offense to the author of this post) when clearly, the only way we could get rid of him by Opening Day is either by cutting him and paying the guaranteed portion of his contract left (stupid), or by finding the one general manager in the league that’s dumb enough to trade for him right now (doubtful).
The only time period I see him possibly being trade is sometime around the deadline to an AL team who either desperately needs an outfielder or a DH and is willing to take on that contract, which could happen but I think is also pretty doubtful. Odds are we’re just going to have to stick this one out, and take the shame of one of the worst contracts in Cubs and league history…
UMD Bulldogs: 2011 NCAA DI Men's Hockey Nat'l Champions; 2008 & 2010 NCAA DII Football Nat'l Champions
The Fanposts are back! The Fanposts are back!
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
by daver on Feb 9, 2012 5:34 PM CST reply actions 5 recs
awesomeness!
UMD Bulldogs: 2011 NCAA DI Men's Hockey Nat'l Champions; 2008 & 2010 NCAA DII Football Nat'l Champions
Can't stop watching
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 11, 2012 11:37 AM CST up reply actions
The dude in the cowboy hat is getting some serious Phil Mickelson elevation there...
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
The only possible scenerio I can see is
if a major contender in the AL with World Series aspirations loses their DH to a season ending injury right before the trade deadline. It will probably be a giveaway. Other than that, looks like we are stuck with him till his contract runs out.
Trade me right f@#$ing now!
play him and hope that
he does well enough to get us a bucket of balls before the trading deadline (still gonna have to pay his contract though, no one’s taking that). If he plays terrible (more so than usual)…I would predict a long face-saving stint on the DL
What to do with Alfonso Soriano....
accept the fact he’s with the Cubs for the foreseeable future. Until Jedstein does something or his contract ends, he shall be a Cub.
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"--The Brain
"The Soriano talk is about 1 min in...
right after they propose trading Hanley Ramirez for Miguel Cabrera."
So clearly, these are some serious dudes who know their, uh, stuff.
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on Feb 9, 2012 10:28 PM CST reply actions
CLAP CLAP CLAP
There will be no excuses for not doing something the right way. - Dale Sveum
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 10, 2012 12:03 AM CST up reply actions
Short answer - Pay Him
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 10, 2012 8:39 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
The Soriano conundrum
Without Soriano there would be no 2008 postseason. Without the 2008 postseason, Hendry would probably be out a lot sooner. If Hendry had left sooner, we probably wouldn’t have Theo and co.
by subtle on Feb 10, 2012 8:46 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
I wouldn't say that about 2008.
2007 maybe. In 2008 he barely played in 100 games, and he wasn’t THAT great.
Regardless, in either year, the Cubs could have found an Alfonso Soriano’s worth of production from some other corner OF for eighteen million dollars.
The guy was a 120 OPS+ in 2007 and 2008. He was fine – especially during the 2-3 weeks per season that he was great. He wasn’t Manny Ramirez. He wasn’t an elite offensive player in any category.
Here’s something weird – as of this moment, Fonzie has exactly 766 starts as a 2B to his name…. and exactly 766 starts as a LF! And he’s 3rd among active players in errors at both positions. That’s some weird synchronicity.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
2007, definitely.
Soriano was huge in September 2007, and the Cubs won the division by the skin of their teeth. The Cubs might have gotten similar production from another player that season for $18 million, but unless they planned on signing Carlos Lee — who was said to be set on staying in the state of Texas — no such player was available after 2006 who would have done the job and played the right position.
Now, 2008 is another matter. The Cubs won the division walking away, a bunch of role players had career years and the Cubs could have probably put DeRosa in left and Fontenot at second (as they did when Soriano was hurt) and won the division. That’s not to say Soriano wasn’t important in 2008, but he wasn’t as vital as he was a year earlier.
The Soriano contract has been debated endlessly on this site. At one point, it looked passable because of 2007-08 and because of the hoped-for return to form after 2009. But he just sort of split the difference between 2007-08 and 2009 over the past two years, and he has THREE more years where he’ll continue to decline. As you aptly pointed out, his increase in power and RBIs in 2011 was offset by a much lower OBP.
Soriano will be our opening day left fielder in 2012. TheoJed will hope that he starts strong and a contender needs a DH after an injury, leading to a July/August trade (in which the Cubs pay a good deal of the remaining freight). If Soriano struggles early, or there’s no match for a trade, look for him to get some serious bench time in August-September and his outright release after the season.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Those additional two years...
…that John McDonough (allegedly, reportedly) tacked on are the real killers. I feel like if Soriano had the six-year deal that Hendry (allegedly, reportedly) wanted to give him, Theo & Jed could fairly easily eat $12 million of it and deal him to a team like the Indians or maybe Orioles looking for a right-handed bat.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
I'm not going to say who did what or assign blame.
However … if Soriano had been signed to a 6-year deal, it still would have been a bad decision, given Soriano’s performance from 2009-11 (and, probably, 2012). It might make it easier to deal him now with only a year left instead of three, but we still would have had to deal with three to four bad years of Soriano being badly overpaid on a 6-year deal.
Someone will undoubtedly chime in and say we wouldn’t care if the Cubs had won it all in 2007 or 2008 …
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
A title in 2007 or 2008 would have reduced the disappointment in Soriano.
But if we’d gone from world champs to a 71-91 team in two years — and Soriano’s bloated contract that was still far from over was seen as a reason why — there would be a lot of criticism.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Of course.
Players who don’t live up to their contracts get criticized. Just how it goes. As much as I don’t like Soriano, it’s not all his fault the Cubs suck. The Giants won the World Series with Barry Zito’s terrible contract on the books.
THIS IS THE YEAR.
Well ...
Soriano does make roster moves more difficult than Barry Zito does. Having either contract is problematic, but you can ‘hide’ a pitcher like Zito at the back of a rotation (or even in the bullpen) more easily than you can hide a left fielder.
One problem the Cubs had in recent years was a glut of position players whose contracts sort of required them to play almost every day at positions that are the easiest (and cheapest) places to add offensive power. When the offense wasn’t doing enough because of the varying lack of production from four guys (Soriano, Kosuke, Lee and Ramirez) who combined made about $60 million, the Cubs had to try to add offense with, essentially, one hand tied behind their backs (leading to patchwork signings like Byrd and Pena).
Soriano was the worst of the four because he was the highest paid, the worst defensively and because he played the position that would have been easiest to fill with a 20 home-run guy who made less than $10 million. It’s not Soriano’s fault that the other three didn’t perform well enough to help cover his decline — and the Bradley signing made things even worse. But Soriano was the highest paid, he has the most booable shortcomings (other than Bradley) and fans knew that he’d be around until 2014.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Yeah, six years was still too long.
2007 was Soriano’s age-31 season. It should’ve been a five-year deal, tops – preferably four years and an option year.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
The Cubs just really screwed up evaluating Soriano.
Hendry, when initially asked about Soriano’s age and the years on the contract, said Soriano was like a “greyhound” who would age pretty well. And, of course, there was the whole idea of putting him in center (which is amazing to think about now).
A lot’s made of Soriano’s leg injury in August 2007, and that clearly affected his base-stealing. But he still hit very well in 2008 and for the first month of 2009. Then, the guy just fell off a cliff. I’ve never seen any theories as to what happened in 2009, other than Soriano aging to the point where his physical gifts could no longer overcome his lack of baseball smarts.
As to your point, Soriano was going to get at least five years from someone, and if Carlos Lee could get six years, that much probably was necessary to sign Soriano. This is just another case where the Cubs “won the bidding” on the wrong player — even if the player was important for two division-winning teams.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I always remember the "greyhound" line, too.
Kinda creepy.
And I thought the theory on Soriano’s downfall in 2009 was that he ran into the outfield wall early in the season and injured his knee…?
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
Boy, I don't remember that.
Has the effect of the collision stayed with him?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Apparently not, according to Fangraphs.
They’ve rated him as +5.1 and +3.4 defensively in 2010 and 2011, respectively. And his UZR ratings have been positive for the last two years, too. Defensive metrics probably do overrate Soriano quite a bit, but I don’t think he’s as God awful as our eyes tell us.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
I thought you meant the collision affected his hitting ...
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Oh.
I think it affected that, too – in 2009. His hitting the last two seasons, at least in terms of power, hasn’t been that bad. His OBP was particularly bad in 2011, but it was right at his career average in 2010.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
Yeah, but Soriano 2009-11 ...
has been far worse than Soriano pre-2009, even if 2010 wasn’t THAT bad and if he was better RBI wise in 2011.
Seems like he got to the point in 2009 or 2010 when his physical skills eroded to a tipping point where he couldn’t do what he used to do as often as he used to do it.
And that’s perfectly understandable. I was just wondering if there was another reason (an injury, I guess) why he hasn’t been the same player that he was for two years and one month as a Cub.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Only Alfonso knows for sure, I guess.
I feel pretty comfortable just writing it off as age-based decline. He’s probably just a guy who peaked in his early 30s.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
Yeah, but at least when a greyhound can't chase the rabbit any more, you can put it down to save money
I think the MLBPA would frown on that….
Oh man...my wife would not like this comment.
How ‘bout we say: At least when a greyhound can’t chase the rabbit any more you can take it to a pet store and let a nice family adopt it.
Come to think of it, you could probably do the same thing with Soriano. Seems like a nice enough guy to have around.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
Dream Answer -
Soriano wakes up one morning and decides he’s not that good anymore. He does a very classy thing. He retires from the game, and foregoes the rest of his contract.
Honestly?
I could see this happening. The problem is that Soriano’s numbers are still, arguably, decent. He’s not awful, he’s just not very good — and if you look at his numbers in a certain light, he’s still a good ballplayer.
Now, it’s not the light I would choose, mind you.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
The MLBPA could not see this happening
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 11, 2012 11:32 AM CST up reply actions
He has never shown any sign of recognizing this
If he did, he would have made adjustments to his game to slow his performance decline. It seems like he still thinks he is 25 and can overcome his flaws with raw talent.
I still
say if he remains a Cub to pick and choose when to play him. Don’t trot him out there 140 games a year. Play him only if the match up is good. And when he does start with the Cubs leading replace him in the 6th or beyond.
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Numbers may not lie, but they don’t tell the whole truth (and nothing but the truth), either. -- Doug Glanville
We are totally screwed ...
what with Soriano likely not able to play very well at all and we traded the best backup EVER to Sori, Franchise!
Fuck, fuck, fuck.
Jesus Christ
Jesus Christos,
I thought this was a simple one.
Obviously it is well-informed, insightful and thoughtful commentary.
Regards,
Not Senorgato
Soriano
First think… Cub fans need to stop treating this guy like he’s a pariah. Hendry and Co signed him to a big contract and that was their mistake. Soriano may lack a lot of things but he’s supposedly a hard worker and a good teammate. The fact that Cub fans boo this guy when he comes to the Cubs convention is pathetic and embarrassing.
Soriano does have value. Its not near his contract, but he has value and releasing him, at least right now, makes no sense. Trading him and eating his entire contract also makes no sense, unless the Cubs are going to get a useful piece back, including prospects.
I’d platoon him. Could be a 50/50 platoon, ultimately with Brian LaHair once Anthony Rizzo comes up. Soriano would also be the DH bat during interleague play. The best that the Cubs can hope for is that he becomes a useful part time player and perhaps learns how to pinch hit on days that he’s sitting on the bench.
Based on projected WAR
he is worth around 4 mil a year. So basically just above replacement level.
However, that may not factor in a few things. First, the things he does well (hit home runs in spurts, try hard, be a good teammate), are countered by things he doesn’t do well (hit for average, get on base, situational hitting, defense, base running, not being old). And those things he doesn’t do well are things that probably carry a lot more weight around the league than the things he does well.
Further, he has 3 years left on his deal. He can only play one position, left field, and he can’t really play that anymore. So he’s a DH. That means the list of potential suitors is narrowed down to the AL teams. Most of those teams already have a DH, and i they don’t, they probably have someone in mind to take the spot within the next year or two. Maybe it’s a position player they’d like to move to DH when the next big prospect comes up.
So we are limited to AL teams who have no current DH, no plans for an in-house DH within the next 3 years, and they have to value Soriano’s streaky power and hard work over things most team’s place a priority on: OBP, situational hitting, clutch hitting, etc.
I think Soriano has some value this year. Maybe 5 mil for this season. But I honestly think he has zero value beyond this year. I don’t think there is any team that wants to commit to him beyond this season. So to move him, they’d probably have to eat 51 of his remaining 56 million, and not expect to get anything back in return. It sounds ridiculous, but I think that is the truth Theo and Jed are finding. I can’t think of a single good fit for Soriano. He’s an aging part-time player with poor defense, poor hitting fundamentals, poor plate discipline, poor base running, and slightly above average power, and is rapidly declining. Who is going to commit to that for 3 years, at any cost?
by tomas21 on Feb 11, 2012 1:29 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Agreed
If Soriano were a free agent right now, some AL team likely would give him a one-year deal. But with there being other players out there with a similar skill set, he wouldn’t get a multi year deal, and thus why the Cubs can’t move him for very much.
My feeling right now is that the cubs need to take it one day at a time with Soriano. I agree that he has some value this year. Not near the contract he’s getting but some value, and thus why you don’t cut him. Hopefully, a year from now, we’re saying the same thing, that he has enough value to not release him. When the time comes that he no longer has value, then you release him.
Think about Aaron Rowand and the 2010 SF Giants
Rowand was paid $13.6 million in 2010 and had 11 post-season plate appearances. The Giants were also hamstrung by Barry Zito’s $18.5 million contract in 2010 and he did not appear in the post-season for them at all.
With 3 years remaining on Soriano’s contract and the Cubs in a building phase, the odds are that the Cubs will not be a playoff contender during his contract. And if the Cubs surprised everyone and got into the playoffs, the Giants have shown that it is possible to win a World Series even with albatross contracts.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 11, 2012 1:14 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
soriano
is one reminder why the cubs would’nt hand over a 9 yr deal to prince.since we cant trade him platoon him.if there was a year left then the cubs would eat the contract but you cant eat a 3 yr deal.such a damn shame these players make so much money that they end up handcuffing the team.
Soriano can still play. I don't get all the hate.
At the end of the day, we’re going to need runs to be competitive this season. With no Aramis, our power offense is going to be seriously depleted. Soriano is plug to keep the ship from sinking until Theo can either
a. Develop the prospects in our system (BJax, Szczur, Soler?, Ha)
b. Wait until Soriano’s contract expires/ pick up a future FA
c. Wait until the firestorm of Cubs player moves slows and regain some leverage in Soriano trades
I never blame myself when I'm not hitting. I just blame the bat and if it keeps up, I change bats. After all, if I know it isn't my fault that I'm not hitting, how can I get mad at myself?
- Yogi Berra
by LongLiveHarryCaray on Feb 14, 2012 11:51 AM CST reply actions
I apologize for the article being out dated.
It gets the point across. And I will qualify: defensive liability- offensive asset. We need offense badly IMHO
I never blame myself when I'm not hitting. I just blame the bat and if it keeps up, I change bats. After all, if I know it isn't my fault that I'm not hitting, how can I get mad at myself?
- Yogi Berra
by LongLiveHarryCaray on Feb 14, 2012 2:59 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Soriano isn't going to keep ANY ships from sinking. He is not a valuable offensive asset.
Theo Epstein, on the other hand, is a seriously valuable asset who understands that saying nice things about a player you’re trying to trade is a far better strategy than blasting the guy in the press for 2 weeks, the way the prior regime did.
If you think that Theo Epstein is actually impressed by Soriano’s 2011 RBI totals, I don’t know what to tell you.
“He also hit 26 home runs and drove in 88 runs last year. He’s a valuable offensive player, so it’s our responsibility as an organization to work with him and to get the best out of him.
At some point in the future, if there’s a transaction that makes sense with any of our players that puts the Cubs in a better position moving forward, we are going to pursue it."
Translation: “I have cherry-picked the only 2 stats that make Soriano look even reasonably productive. The fact that one of them is RBI should give everyone a chuckle, given my very public stance on SABRmetrics. We’ll obviously take any offer that provides us with any value whatsoever, and we’re going to try like heck to move him.”
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Feb 15, 2012 8:12 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Google's new "GM Translator" app is really impressive.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
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