Pitching staff set? Fukudome, Matsui, Andruw next?

by cubz1963 on Nov 26, 2007 11:56 PM CST

I don't know about the rest of you, but I like the Sun Times' Gordon Wittenmyer. He and Bruce Miles over at the Daily Herald cover baseball like they really love their jobs (as tough as the beat might be).

Anyway, Wittenmyer seems to indicate in his article today on Kerry Wood that the Cubs' pitching staff as currently constructed is the one the team will take to spring training.

At least that's the way I read it: http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/667571,cub112607.article

Then again, Phil Rogers had this in his Sunday "Whispers."

Kerry Wood seems unlikely to re-sign with the Cubs, who then would pursue a proven reliever to replace him.

So does the Wood signing, then, mean that the Cubs will immediately zero in on Matsui (speedy left-handed hitting all-purpose infielder) and then his compatriot Kosuke Fukudome (lefty right fielder) and then after that (or after a Plan B if Fukudome stays put or goes elsewhere) that's it?

It seems to me the Cubs need more of a makeover than this to step up to the next level. But let's say they do add Matsui (if only for the sake of luring Fukudome) and Fukudome. If the pitching is set, what else will it take to make this team a real contender?

I'll pitch this: Offer Andruw Jones one year at $20 million. Then backload Fukudome ($6 million first year, $12-14 million per for the next two).

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Hendry Dancing

Listen to the Jim Hendry Press Conference announcing the re-signing of Kerry Wood here.

When asked the questions (a) with Kerry Wood now signed is Hendry done with the 'pen, and (b) with Dempster moving to the starting rotation, is that piece complete, Hendry did his beautiful "dancing around the topic"... saying a lot of non-committal words. Knowing this is what he does, the answer is he's still looking. Not being desperate, though, gives the appearance of being in the driver's seat. He has and inventory of guys ready for a trade. Specifically, Carrie Muskat reported "Hendry has said he has "inventory" in case there's a trade to be made."

A little later, Carrie mentioned that there are 9 guys primed for competing for the 5 starting rotation spots, namely (and prefaced by if the season started today): "Dempster, Carlos Zambrano, Ted Lilly, Jason Marquis, Rich Hill, Kevin Hart, Sean Gallagher, Sean Marshall and Mark Holliman." We know Zambrano and Lilly are locks... beyond that, anything can happen.

Uhm, who's Mark Holliman??

by initram on Nov 26, 2007 11:54 PM CST reply actions

What about Guzman?

Is Angel Guzman off the radar completely? I'm not seeing him discussed much as a possible fifth starter or even as a reliever.

And it sure sounds as if Mark Prior is about to be non-tendered. I don't see him giving the Cubs an option for 2009, which I've read is the only way he comes back.

Also, regarding the above post, I believe Matsui is a switch hitter.

As for Holliman, didn't he pitch for Tennessee this year at double-A? Not sure how he did off the top of my head. I'm sure others will follow with info.

"Its a long fly to left field. And there it goes. Ahhh crap." -- Harry Caray

by cubz1963 on Nov 27, 2007 12:03 AM CST up reply actions

Notes

Guzman had Tommy John Surgery at the end of last year... look for him to miss most of 2008.

If Prior is back, he likely won't be ready in time for Spring Training after his surgery as well.

I did some research on Holliman. He pitched a no-hitter for Tenn on 6/21/2007. Look at this: http://cubs.scout.com/a.z?s=260&p=8&c=1&nid=2495266

by initram on Nov 27, 2007 12:05 AM CST up reply actions

Thanks for the update

on Guzman. I was in left field on that one.

You really have to wonder if he'll ever stay healthy with his history.

Good stuff on Holliman.

"Its a long fly to left field. And there it goes. Ahhh crap." -- Harry Caray

by cubz1963 on Nov 27, 2007 12:14 AM CST up reply actions

Wasn't his surgery at the beginning of the season?

fwiw, Angel Guzman and Mark Prior were both removed from the 60 day DL about a month ago........

Super Mario Galaxy! Get it NOW!

by TheBeerBaron on Nov 27, 2007 8:33 AM CST up reply actions

Don't mean a thing if you ain't got that...slider

Every player on the 60-day DL has to be removed from it before the teams announce their final 40-man roster that will be effective for the Rule 5 draft. It doesn't mean they're healthy.

Geo! (clap-clap-clap) Soto! (clap-clap-clap)

by cubzfan on Nov 27, 2007 10:29 AM CST up reply actions

The Week of September 10, 2007

re: Guzman's surgery:

"Oct. 4, 2007 - 8:36 a.m. ET

The Cubs announced that RHP Angel Guzman underwent reconstructive elbow surgery three weeks ago. "

Source: http://fantasybaseball.usatoday.com/content/player.asp?sport=MLB&id=3819

by initram on Nov 27, 2007 11:26 AM CST up reply actions

So secretive

You wouldn't think the Cubs would have to be so hush hush about a guy like Angel Guzman. You barely heard anything about him all year. Then we hear about his surgery nearly a month after the fact.

That's bogus.

"It's a long fly to left field. And there it goes. Ahhh crap." -- Harry Caray

by cubz1963 on Nov 27, 2007 12:34 PM CST up reply actions

Is it bogus or is it irrelevant?

I don't think this is "secrecy". Everyone knew Guzman was out for the year; the timing of his surgery and the announcement, given that the surgery happened in September and he was unlikely to pitch until well into 2008 anyway, is really meaningless.

I'm guessing the Cub front office was kinda busy with other things at the end of September, like preparing for the playoffs, rather than rushing to yell "Extra! Extra! Read all about it!" about a guy who may never throw another pitch in a Cub uniform.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 27, 2007 5:37 PM CST up reply actions

Holliman has a very low ceiling...

...but he could very well be ready to challenge for a fifth-starter's job right now. He's a command pitcher with a low-90s fastball. He won't blow anyone away, but he's got the ability to make the pitches he wants to make and get ground balls. I like him an awful lot, even if I don't see much of a future for him. (And I like Sean Gallagher a lot more.)

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Nov 27, 2007 12:22 AM CST up reply actions

I know

I haven't seen Holliman on any prospects lists, but any buzz on guys 25 or younger is good I guess.

Geovany Soto wasn't turning many heads before last year. Of course, we're all hoping he isn't a one-year wonder.

"It's a long fly to left field. And there it goes. Ahhh crap." -- Harry Caray

by cubz1963 on Nov 27, 2007 12:27 AM CST up reply actions

When evaluating prospects...

...the two things are their ceiling (how good they can be) and actual current talent level (how good they are right now). Holliman's ceiling is low, but he's pretty close to it right now. He's not the best pitcher in the Cubs organization, probably not one of the top five; I like him as a sleeper to take a rotation spot for a while, but I'm honest that he's not likely to have a long major league career.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Nov 27, 2007 12:31 AM CST up reply actions

Good point

I think one thing people forget is that just because a guy isn't star material doesn't make him a roster filler on a minor-league team.

Once in a while a guy becomes someone you can plug in for a year or whatever because, as you say, he's more major-league ready when you're still waiting for others to mature.

I sure would like to see somebody step up though this year in addition to Zambrano, Lilly and hopefully Hill and really show he's capable of being more than a journeyman.

I think the Cubs need a surprise from the pitching staff this year to contend. And that's assuming Hill keeps progressing and Zambrano and Lilly hit their career norms.

Perhaps that could be Gallagher. Or Marshall. I really liked what I saw from Hart last year, but from what I understand his ceiling isn't that high either.

"It's a long fly to left field. And there it goes. Ahhh crap." -- Harry Caray

by cubz1963 on Nov 27, 2007 12:39 AM CST up reply actions

Hart's much more of a strikeout guy...

...than Holliman is, and despite what Crash Davis might tell you, strikeouts are very important if you want to pitch in the majors.

Josh probably could answer questions about Hart's ceiling much better than I could.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Nov 27, 2007 12:43 AM CST up reply actions

Surprise pitcher

Hill & Marshall will be the surprise or move to the next level by being able to use a commanding straight-change instead of showing it once in a while.

Holliman and Hart are pitchers who could end up being good middle relievers, Hart has a higher potential since he has a good slider that he throws for strikes.

As of today the Cubs have put Prior on the radar if he signs a 2 year plus team option contract for May call up. That is your surprise pitcher.

It appears certain that Dempster and Marquis are being floated as trade bait.

Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."

by Ivy Walls on Nov 27, 2007 9:55 AM CST up reply actions

I hope you're right

about Prior. But he doesn't seem to feel he owes the Cubs anything after collecting all that money to sit out most of the last five years.

And in a way, you'd think he might want a change of scenery.

"It's a long fly to left field. And there it goes. Ahhh crap." -- Harry Caray

by cubz1963 on Nov 27, 2007 12:37 PM CST up reply actions

Yeah...

... like going home to play for the Padres.

by initram on Nov 27, 2007 2:44 PM CST up reply actions

Any positive mark from Marshall

would be a surprise. Still not sold on him.

"I got mad hits like I was Rod Carew!"

by lostinthevines on Nov 28, 2007 11:31 AM CST up reply actions

pass on jones

thats money better spent elsewhere, too many strikeouts, not a lot of balls in play, that just isnt what this team needs.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Nov 26, 2007 11:55 PM CST reply actions

I see your point ...

But why not take a shot for a year, and then Pie will either be ready or you know you have to find a center fielder. How would this opening day lineup look:

Soriano LF
Fukudome RF
Lee 1B
Jones CF
Ramirez 3B
DeRosa SS
Soto C
Matsui 2B
Zambrano P

Bench: Theriot, Ward, Murton, Pie. ... Or if DeRosa can't handle short, sub Theriot for Matsui and move DeRosa to second.

Plus, Jones is so solid in center.

"Its a long fly to left field. And there it goes. Ahhh crap." -- Harry Caray

by cubz1963 on Nov 27, 2007 12:10 AM CST up reply actions

No no no

First of all, Pie won't get better sitting on the bench. He is going to come through at the major league level, he just needs more at-bats on a regular day basis. The Brewers 25-10 start was the worse thing that could have happened for Pie. We got too far behind the Brewers to wait for him and by the looks of it, Lou got it just right. Jones would regulate Pie to pinch hits even more and you are dead wrong about Jones' defense. He has gotten way too lazy and he is only average when it comes to fielding. Every once in awhile he makes a diving catch but that's mainly because he's slower and he had to dive just to catch the ball. Pie is better on defense.

Pie will be better on offense too I think because the Cubs will be close to first place all year long barring some injuries. Just think how bad Eyre, Howry, Wuertz, and Ohman were in April and May of last year. Marmol didn't pitch once in April and only 6 innings in May. I think Lou really has a handle on the matchups those guys need and just imagine Hart and Wood in that mix too. Man I'm pumped about next year's bullpen. Pie will get all the time he needs and we can afford to have him learn the game in the 8th spot. If we are able to sign Fukudome and Pie comes on, Theriot/Matsui/Infante is really the old weak spot in the lineup. I hope Fukudomas comes and I can't wait for opening day already.... let's just have nothing to do with Andruw Jones. Bad bad idea.

by IllinoisCubs on Nov 27, 2007 12:37 AM CST up reply actions

Some good points

I agree Pie is better at this point defensively than Jones.

I also agree that the bullpen has the potential to be lights out if everything falls into place.

But even if the Cubs sign Fukudome, I think this team is still offensively challenged. Depending on two rookies, basically, in Pie and Soto (and we know he'll start) seems risky.

Now if the Cubs could go out and trade for Miguel Tejada, who I realize is past his prime, then I would be more inclined to stick Pie out there and be patient with his offense.

"It's a long fly to left field. And there it goes. Ahhh crap." -- Harry Caray

by cubz1963 on Nov 27, 2007 12:48 AM CST up reply actions

Depending on rookies

I think it is instructive to look at the two WS teams who depended on rookies to get there. Both Troy Tulowitzki and Dustin Pedroia struggled out of the gate, but their teams stuck with them and it paid off in spades.

When you look at the two Cub rookies in question, it is even less of an issue, in my mind. Soto has more offensive upside than any other option out there. Given that teams generally don't expect the C to do much at the plate, Soto's not much of a risk, while offering a potentially high reward.

Pie, on the other hand, is a definite offensive risk, though not as much of a risk as Cub fans still smarting over Corey Patterson think he is. Felix has done something Corey never really did - hit at the AAA level. The odds of him succeeding are good. Plus, his defense and speed never go into a slump, so he'll bring something to this team that it wants everyday.

Add this to the discussion - the Cubs say they want speed and lefty bats - why subtract Pie from the equation when that is exactly what he gives you?

by DGU on Nov 27, 2007 5:21 AM CST up reply actions

why don't the Cubs trade for ARod?

by lemon20pie on Nov 27, 2007 5:48 AM CST up reply actions

If the Cubbies wanted A-Rod

they could have signed him without needing to trade half their 40-man roster to get him. So, for some reason Jim Hendry must not have thought A-Rod's a fit. I hear it's because the Cubs want a team with more creative nicknames. Intangibles like that are so underrated in baseball today.

by DGU on Nov 27, 2007 6:05 AM CST up reply actions

Sadly

I don't know if you're being facetious or not.

It's so hard to differentiate from the maddening and innate from the maddening and innate of this board recently.

Wake me up in February.

by lemon20pie on Nov 27, 2007 6:22 AM CST up reply actions

re: Sadly

LOL. I assume you mean "inane" not "innate". If you're going to insult BCB as a whole, at least use the right words.

Ladies and gentlemen, your 2008 Chicago Cubs starting outfield: Soriano-Pie-Fukudome. Let it be.

by daver on Nov 27, 2007 9:27 AM CST up reply actions

Mystery joke

Lemon20pie -
I didn't know if you were joking, so I gave you a half serious and half jokey response. The first half was serious - if the Cubs wanted A-Rod, they missed their window. The second half was jokey. If nicknames were an issue, we would never have traded Rocky Cherry.

by DGU on Nov 27, 2007 11:14 AM CST up reply actions

Pie will be the platoon starting CF'er

Piniella will work him in until mid season he is the regular starter increasing his offense as time goes on. All he needs to do is bat .260 and .300 OBP in the first 3 months with an occassional pop. By the end of July he moves his BA .280 he will become a future star in the eyes of many.

Soto is a genuine hitter and he will be a difference maker.

Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."

by Ivy Walls on Nov 27, 2007 10:01 AM CST up reply actions

Platooning with who?

by IllinoisCubs on Nov 27, 2007 10:52 AM CST up reply actions

LOL

"I got mad hits like I was Rod Carew!"

by lostinthevines on Nov 28, 2007 11:35 AM CST up reply actions

Excellent post DGU

But does Lou feel this way? And even if he does, I believe your scenario only works if there is a solid bat in right field. Otherwise, I think you have too many potential soft spots in the lineup.

Soto, it would seem, is a real key for 2008. If he becomes an above average hitting catcher it really gives the Cubs a boost -- and a cheap one potentially for the next few years.

"It's a long fly to left field. And there it goes. Ahhh crap." -- Harry Caray

by cubz1963 on Nov 27, 2007 12:43 PM CST up reply actions

Hardly OFFENSIVELY challenged;

more CONSISTENCY challenegd

"I got mad hits like I was Rod Carew!"

by lostinthevines on Nov 28, 2007 11:36 AM CST up reply actions

I can't advocate............

..........inking Jones to big numbers, but I also can't condemn his fielding. And to say Pie is better at this point in time is also inaccurate, if for no other reason that Pie simply hasn't had the opportunity to make his way around the Bigs to play and understand the MLB ballparks.

Andruw Jones has lost part of his game, but it's not the part involving his glove. His positioning is perfect, judgment in the field sound, and arm still very strong. He may not dive all around the field, but that's likely because he's in the right spot at the onset of each player's AB. Plus his jump on the ball is as good as any player I've ever seen.

by tville on Nov 27, 2007 7:55 AM CST up reply actions

Rental

My problem with Jones is that he'd either be an expensive one year rental or he'd be a very expensive multi-year contract at a time when most skills in his set appear to be in decline. Pie may or may not be the better alternative but his defense should visit the ballpark every day and he costs next to nothing right now which gives Hendry more payroll flexibility to fill other holes.

Someone suggested trading for Tejada. I oppose trading for Tejada for similar reasons and a couple others. Besides being expensive, Tejada would cost the Cubs players potentially creating other holes and he strikes me as a difficult personality likely to cause friction in the clubhouse. Additionally, his name is mentioned frequently in steroid rumors so I think it's important to consider the risk he'll be unavailable for a period of time after the Mitchell Report is published.

by Copter OBob on Nov 27, 2007 11:13 AM CST up reply actions

I can live with the rental

if it brings a World Series. Then you have a nice problem as far as what to do after that, and the new owners can sort it out depending on their budget.

The steroids point is a good one. And perhaps the Hendrys of the world are taking these things into account.

My goal, for better or worse, is to look at each position and see how the Cubs can upgrade for 2008. I wouldn't, then advocate trading away something at one position to make another stronger -- which is almost certainly what would happen if Fukudome shuns the Cubs and they have to pursue Crawford.

If Fukodome spurns the Cubs, how about a Murton/Luke Scott platoon in right? It might work if you have a really solid defensive center fielder.

"It's a long fly to left field. And there it goes. Ahhh crap." -- Harry Caray

by cubz1963 on Nov 27, 2007 12:49 PM CST up reply actions

Interesting platoon

This morning the Trib reported Fukudome still hasn't decided if he's going to play in the U.S. I think it was the Trib, anyway. So we fans might as well speculate about alternatives.

I like Murton the man and I think he's a viable major leaguer but I don't think he's a good fit with the Cubs. The Cubs are trying to become a contender but the roster is thin in too many places. Murton is one of those places. I think you're right that a good center fielder could help mask some of Murton's deficiencies but ultimately isn't he still a mediocre defensive player at best and a guy who tends to have offensive numbers just a little over league averages? I think there are too many other thin spots in the lineup to have Murton in there too while still contending.

Luke Scott looks like a good minor leaguer but whether he can hit major league pitching remains a question. There are a lot of guys who have come out of the Cubs' farm system looking like "can't miss" guys but they haven't really done much in the bigs. I hope Luke Scott is the next Henry Aaron but if the team is really hoping to contend should anyone be counting on him to be even the next Henry Rodriguez? I think the only good answer to the outfield question is Fukudome unless there's a team strapped for cash out there that wants prospects and a pile of cash for their star (I'm looking around but I don't see a team like that).

I hate to say it but I don't really see many alternatives out there. If the Cubs don't get Fukudome, they will have to start looking for a substantial upgrade at another position and I don't see a big supply in the likely spots.

by Copter OBob on Nov 27, 2007 5:21 PM CST up reply actions

Ryan Church...

... appears to be at least one version of "Plan B". And that's not a bad one, either, depending on how much the Cubs would have to give up to get him.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 27, 2007 5:34 PM CST up reply actions

Church road

I know the Church thing has been explored to death, but the more I study his numbers the more I like him. Plus, it's realistic (the Cubs are not getting Carl Crawford).

Three questions.

What's the current common wisdom on what the Nationals would likely want?
What kind of numbers do y'all think he'd put up in Wrigley? His home and road splits look fairly similar to me, so I'm guessing 270/.350/.450 (career norms)?
What becomes of Felix Pie? Is he part of the deal?

Church in center with Fukudome in right sounds good to me. Definite upgrades (though Fukudome is somewhat of an unknown in the majors) from 2007.

"It's a long fly to left field. And there it goes. Ahhh crap." -- Harry Caray

by cubz1963 on Nov 28, 2007 1:34 PM CST up reply actions

I like Church

I really like Ryan Church as an option. The speculation I heard between the Cubs and Nats was back in winter/spring 2007 when Jacque Jones was supposed to be traded anydaynow. Then, it was Marshall for Church and I think that trade still holds good, although Marshall may have increased his value more in 2007 compared to Church. The Cubs then were supposed to have thought Marshall was worth more than Church. You never know when the GMs always say that 90% of these rumors are made-up. Still, I'd think that when you look at other trades going on and the two players relative value, they match up fairly well in value. If Hendry could get Church for Marquis, he'd be brilliant.
I think Church could thrive to the tune of .285/.360/.485 under any change of scenery and maybe better than that. RKF was killer as a park on hitters and Church did not seem to fit with the management in Washington. I think there are good reasons, if you move him from Washington, to expect a modest bounce over his career numbers.
I don't think Hendry would consider for a minute giving up Pie for Church. I think if Fukudome comes, Church is not an option. I think Church is a backup plan to Fukudome. You can play him straight in RF, platoon him with Murton in RF, or play him in a roving platoon where Pie sits vs. lefties and Murton plays RF and Church CF v. lefties.

Here's the one question about Church - would you rather have him and lose Marshall or Gallagher or sign Brad Wilkerson on a one-year incentive contract and keep the pitching depth?

by DGU on Nov 28, 2007 1:50 PM CST up reply actions

Marshall for Church

sounds too good to be true. I think three lefty starters is one too many anyhow. Seems like the Cubs think Hart can start too, and with Dempster in the rotation (unless he's dealt) it looks like this is where the Cubs have the depth to deal. They have so many 4-5 starters...

I like the idea of a Church/Murton platoon if Fukudome falls through, but I still think its risky to have Pie, Soto and whoever is at short all in the starting lineup. Seems like a lot of potential offensive struggles.

What kind of fielder is Church and how is his arm?

"It's a long fly to left field. And there it goes. Ahhh crap." -- Harry Caray

by cubz1963 on Nov 29, 2007 2:51 AM CST up reply actions

Defensive metrics are tough for me

But, here's some of what I have found:

Rate from baseballprospectus:
Career as LF: 108
Career as CF: 106
Career as RF: 110
(Rate works off of 100 as average, so Andruw Jones has a career Rate of 113 and Cliff Floyd had a Rate of 85 last year in RF.)

The 2007 Fielding Bible gave Church a +12 in LF, good for fourth in LF.

Range Factor at baseball-reference.com gives him a career 1.92 at LF, a 2.61 at CF, and a 1.85 at RF, compared to league average ranges of 1.53 at LF, 2.23 at CF, and 1.75 at RF.

So, the metrics tend to agree is above-average at every OF position.

by DGU on Nov 29, 2007 8:33 AM CST up reply actions

Very helpful

Though I still wonder about his arm.

"It's a long fly to left field. And there it goes. Ahhh crap." -- Harry Caray

by cubz1963 on Nov 29, 2007 12:41 PM CST up reply actions

Here's a radical thought....

If Fukodome doesn't work, why don't we jump in on the Aaron Rowand bidding war to play CF, then use Pie/Murton in a RF platoon (Murton against lefties, Pie against righties)?

That way we "pay" for a starter (and solid CF defender) in Rowand, and "platoon" our less experienced (but cheaper players). Murton/Pagan become your backups (unless Sam Fuld breaks in as a bench guy), and in case Rowand breaks his face going into the wall at Wrigley, you still have Pie to play CF....

Rowand loved playing in Chicago (I'm pretty sure), and the Pie/Murton platoon would give Murton playing time, while allowing Pie the primary chance to improve in situations where he'll suceed (he'll get the bulk of playing time since we face far more righties than lefties)

by Chadnudj on Nov 27, 2007 5:45 PM CST up reply actions

Rowand

I like that idea quite a bit. Rowand wouldn't be a gargantuan upgrade over the departed Jacque Jones but Rowand plays Gold Glove center, is a couple years younger, has a better arm, gets on base more, and strikes out less. Rowand doesn't have quite the consistent power that Jones has but that may be the only drawback but who knows, maybe Rowand's power would improve at Wrigley. I suspect he'll be overpaid wherever he lands so why not be overpaid here with a good (and hopefully improving) team in front of noisy fans who will love that he chose not to be a White Sock again.

by Copter OBob on Nov 28, 2007 12:16 AM CST up reply actions

He's leaving..............

...........Philly, and was previously on the Sout Side. Pretty tough to find more hitter-friendly ballparks - especially for power - in the Bigs.

by tville on Nov 28, 2007 7:13 AM CST up reply actions

im a fan of this idea

not a bad idea at all. pie could play right everyday too if they wanted him to.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Nov 28, 2007 8:27 AM CST up reply actions

Good Rowand or bad Rowand?

Rowand's price tag far exceeds his value and his numbers (in hitters' parks) have been up and down.

"It's a long fly to left field. And there it goes. Ahhh crap." -- Harry Caray

by cubz1963 on Nov 28, 2007 1:37 PM CST up reply actions

As I said..............

.........I can't advocate signing Andruw to a contract for big dollars, but the prior post was slandering Jones' defense, and that is simply not a factual position.

Is the guy what the Cubs need? Probably not.

Is he still the best defensive CF in the game? Probably so.

by tville on Nov 27, 2007 10:20 PM CST up reply actions

Grady Sizemore.

That's just one guy, off the top of my head, who's probably better at this time than Andruw Jones.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 28, 2007 4:36 AM CST up reply actions

By the way...

...in the Liga Venezolana de Béisbol Profesional (that's Venezuelan Winter Leagues, for those of you whose Spanish is somehow worse than mine), Ronny Cedeno was hitting .325/.420/.415. I'm guessing there's 123 at bats (or plate appearances, something like that) involved here, but as I said my Spanish isn't great and their online box scores leave much to be desired.

Meanwhile, in the Liga Dominicana de Béisbol Invernal (Dominican Winter Leagues), Felix Pie is hitting .208, with a .274 OBP, in what seems like 74 at-bats. If I get a spare moment I'll ask the Cuban Yankees fan at work to talk me through a Spanish-language box score.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Nov 27, 2007 12:37 AM CST reply actions

I believe that's the same league....

.....in which Jose Macias led the league in BA.

by lemon20pie on Nov 27, 2007 5:50 AM CST up reply actions

Yes!

(see my sig) Dusty can bring him back to the bigs now!

I want my Macias!

by wombat on Nov 28, 2007 11:23 AM CST up reply actions

check with the Cuban Yankee

I'll bet Ronny Cedeno translated means "not the answer for the Cubs at short."

by elgato on Nov 27, 2007 7:25 AM CST up reply actions

This feels like deja vu

Is this diary titled "Two Dominoes"?

by IllinoisCubs on Nov 27, 2007 1:21 AM CST reply actions

Huh?

The main point of this diary was pointing out that it has been stated that the Cubs are done tweaking their pitching staff (comments made a few hours ago) -- and I posed the question if this is a good enough staff to go to 2008 with.

My other question was ASSUMING the Matsui and Fukudome signings (not discussing the likelihood of those signings), and no more pitching moves, what else would be needed.

If you feel those subjects have have been covered elsewhere, then I guess you and I will not be exchanging pleasantries on the topics.

"It's a long fly to left field. And there it goes. Ahhh crap." -- Harry Caray

by cubz1963 on Nov 27, 2007 1:28 AM CST up reply actions

Mark Holliman

He's probably going to be a 5th starter in the major leagues, or a 4th starter at best. But still those guys are valueable pitchers these days.

I don't see Holliman making the opening day roster, but if we have injuries or some guys struggle I could see him being called up midseason.

by cubsfan25 on Nov 27, 2007 1:53 AM CST reply actions

Ryan O'Malley??

What is the outlook on him? Haven't heard much about him after he made those handful of starts for us in '06

by sheamcmurray on Nov 27, 2007 1:55 AM CST reply actions

If by a handful

you mean two, then yes he did.

Ryan O'Malley got called up after the Cubs and Astros played an eighteen inning game in Houston the night before and had burned every available pitcher. The Iowa Cubs were playing in Round Rock (I think) and he was the only available pitcher in the Cubs system who could get on a plane and make it in time for a 1pm start. He shut out the (extremely tired) Astros for eight innings on five hits (but six walks) and recorded his first major league win.

That's the game you remember.

He got one more start for the Cubs as a reward for his good start. Against Philadelphia at Wrigley, he got his first major league loss, surrendering three runs in four and two-thirds innings.

That's his major league career.

Since then, his career has been terrible. His ERA for Iowa this year was 7.76. He got demoted to Tennessee where he wasn't much better with an ERA of 4.79. He's going to be 28 this season and at this point, he's nothing but a minor league body.

But one day he'll be able to tell his grandchildren about the day the Cub told him to get on the next plane to Houston and he shut down the defending NL Champion Astros. No one will ever be able to take that away from him.

The artist formerly known as JoshinLA

by Josh Timmers on Nov 27, 2007 2:33 AM CST up reply actions

Dude what a dream though

Pitch 8 innings at Wrigley Field and get the win? I don't care if I never got there again. That is so flippin' awesome.

by IllinoisCubs on Nov 27, 2007 3:48 AM CST up reply actions

That game was in Houston.

Still, O'Malley will indeed always have that... a real dream day as a major leaguer.

99% of minor leaguers never even get that.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 27, 2007 7:21 AM CST up reply actions

And also...

... about that game in Houston, it's my recollection that there was no way to get him on a plane; it was after midnight and the next day was a day game, and there were no commercial flights and no way to get a private plane there (he was in Frisco, with Iowa). So they dispatched a limo to drive him from there to Houston.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 27, 2007 7:26 AM CST up reply actions

Not Frisco

He was in Round Rock, due to start against the Astros' AAA team. The limo ride was about 2.5 hours.

Geo! (clap-clap-clap) Soto! (clap-clap-clap)

by cubzfan on Nov 27, 2007 10:30 AM CST up reply actions

Thanks for clarifying the details.

I knew he took a limo, not a plane.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 27, 2007 11:17 AM CST up reply actions

Cubs young pitchers

The Cubs have alot of guys who are projected to be number 3-5 starters. Guys like Gallagher, Marshall,Hart,and Holliman are all in that range. Even guys Juan Mateo, Billy Petrick and Mitch Aktins could be bottom of the rotation starters. So thats why we shouldn't go after any middle of the rotation pitchers or lower.

Guys like Samardijiza, Veal and Huseby could be potential number 2's if everything works out, but all these guys are still long time away from hitting their potential.

by cubsfan25 on Nov 27, 2007 2:00 AM CST reply actions

I'll buy that argument

as far as why pay for a Carlos Silva if you have that many guys in your arsenal who could be that good.

I guess that's why they had to nail down Zambrano with hopes they have a No. 1 guy who won't break down.

But how about making a run at Dontrelle Willis?

"It's a long fly to left field. And there it goes. Ahhh crap." -- Harry Caray

by cubz1963 on Nov 27, 2007 2:58 AM CST up reply actions

I was thinking about that question,,,

... and thought about posting a poll with this question: Would you trade Sean Marshall straight up for Dontrelle Willis?

Ignore for a minute that Florida would ask for more than Marshall and probably a lot more.

Their last two years make an interesting comparison (although there is no comparison when it comes to IP, but the point the last few posts have made well is that the Cubs shouldn't have trouble filling league average IP).

D-Train
Age 24 223.3 IP 160 K 3.87 ERA 112 ERA+ 1.42 WHIP
Age 25 205.3 IP 146 K 5.17 ERA 83 ERA+ 1.60 WHIP

S-Marsh
Age 23 125.7 IP 77 K 5.59 ERA 83 ERA+ 1.52 WHIP
Age 24 103.3 IP 67 K 3.92 ERA 118 ERA+ 1.37 WHIP

by DGU on Nov 27, 2007 5:07 AM CST up reply actions

Sure, why not....

one lefty for another....it's like trading a decent apple for another one that isn't quite ripe yet.....

the Marlins would never do that though.

Super Mario Galaxy! Get it NOW!

by TheBeerBaron on Nov 27, 2007 9:22 AM CST up reply actions

Thank you!

I knew that there was evidence for Marshall developing into a high-quality pitcher out there, and you seemed to find it.

Seriously, why is everyone so fascinated with trading Marshall? His numbers at a young age look pretty good, he's got control, he hasn't burned his arm out, and he had a year of intense tutelage with Maddux (a guy who really started figuring it out at about the same point that Marshall is at now). Not saying Marshall becomes Maddux (though God that would be sweet), but I'd much rather see Marquis, Dempster, or Veal go in a deal than Marshall.

by Chadnudj on Nov 27, 2007 11:44 AM CST up reply actions

Are You Sure He Hasn't Burned His Arm Out?

I haven't seen evidence that he has or has not.

What I have seen is that at the end of 2006, his arm was fatigued.

He started 2007 with a fatigued arm.

He ended 2007 presumably with a fatigued arm, although it may have been masked with Piniella/Hendry going with a "veteran arm down the stretch in Trachsel".

My theory is that he can't pitch a full season, and that he should be pushed.

by initram on Nov 27, 2007 11:49 AM CST up reply actions

Yep

That's the thing keeping us from coparing Marshall and Rich Hill (who had the same ERA last year). Marshall's health has never been a strong point.

When you say Marshall can't pitch a full season and should be "pushed" do you mean pushed to pitch through pain (which he did at least in 2006 without much success and may have also done in 2007), or pushed to build up his strength, or pushed out of the system by trade?

Personally, I think you want to keep him in the system and see if he can get through this time of rocky health, because I think his career ML stats so far are dragged down by that arm fatigue and he is probably better than he looks.

by DGU on Nov 27, 2007 1:47 PM CST up reply actions

Point Taken...

... and by "pushed", I meant put in a trade.

by initram on Nov 27, 2007 2:47 PM CST up reply actions

Unfortunately, Veal

Due to continuing control problems, will not be an efffective MLB starting pitcher, imo.

The Cubs MiLB system have many more pitchers that are suited for pen work than rotation slots. This includes Ceda, Veal, Maestri, Holliman, Guzman, Petrick, et. al.

Veal will NEVER be a #2 starter for the Cubs - unless of course a miracle happens with his control.

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Nov 27, 2007 8:03 AM CST up reply actions

Hell I'd be happy if he became a No. 5

or even an lights out LOOGY!

by IllinoisCubs on Nov 27, 2007 10:53 AM CST up reply actions

Veal

I know he was a big disappointment last year, especially after some writers tabbed him as a breakout candidate for 2007.

I just don't see why everyone has written him off. He showed improvement at the end of 2007. Maybe he will learn better control. Sometimes it takes time.

You certainly can't count on him to be anything in 2008, but I'd rather hold him and see if he gets it under control than trade him away right now.

by DGU on Nov 27, 2007 1:51 PM CST up reply actions

Not just writers...

scouts. No one has "written him off" as you say.

He can be dominating - for a couple innings. That's his problem. He has not figured out how to control his spots and BB to K's ratio is pretty bad.

This has been an ongoing thing with him, and I really hope he figures it out. But, conventional wisdom will play out that the guy could have an MLB opportunity as an effective reliever or LOOGY.

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Nov 27, 2007 2:47 PM CST up reply actions

Go after Tejada

Cedeno, EPatt and Marshall is a good start...

SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!

by CubFaninCA on Nov 27, 2007 5:04 AM CST reply actions

CubFaninCA....it's been awhile!

I agree with this idea....couldn't hurt. Tejada's not juicing anymore and might not ever even drive in 100 in a season again (let alone 150)....but he's still an upgrade over Ryan (overrated) Theriot.....and he's never been in the NL, maybe his production increases....especially being protected by a Soriano, Ramirez and Lee.

Super Mario Galaxy! Get it NOW!

by TheBeerBaron on Nov 27, 2007 9:24 AM CST up reply actions

I think the Cubs should trade...

...for ARod.

Now here me out. Offer the Yankees Wood, Marshall, Cedeno, Patterson,Pawelek, Johnson, Fuld,Orie, Gallagher, Veal and Holliman and I bet they couldn't refuse.

The Yankees get their solid vet in Wood and a plethora of clearly great prospects in return. They'd be set for years.

by lemon20pie on Nov 27, 2007 5:55 AM CST reply actions

*hear

by lemon20pie on Nov 27, 2007 5:55 AM CST up reply actions

"Orie"?

LOL

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 27, 2007 7:21 AM CST up reply actions

They linger

It does seem like certain people linger in the Cubs' system even when we think they've been excused. Ed Lynch is hanging around somewhere. The Cubs still have a Patterson. And even if he's not really here, it still feels like Orie is lurking, waiting for just the right time to get called up and strike out with a man in scoring position.

by Copter OBob on Nov 27, 2007 11:19 AM CST up reply actions

Kevin $@$#@ Orie

haha, man this just made my day.

Imagine if we added Kevin Tapani to that deal, they couldnt refuse!

"Just say Smith or Jones again, it dont matter, none of this matters"

by ksucubbie on Nov 27, 2007 11:45 AM CST up reply actions

I about barfed up my breakfast

when I heard Lynch was doing advance scouting for the Cubs heading into the playoffs.

If this is true, it explains why the Cubs always seem to be lacking in this area.

"It's a long fly to left field. And there it goes. Ahhh crap." -- Harry Caray

by cubz1963 on Nov 27, 2007 12:56 PM CST up reply actions

A-Rod

First, A-Rod is currently a free agent. It is pretty tough to trade for a free-agent.

Second, when A-Rod officially signs with the Yankees, he will have a no-trade clause.

Third, you cannot trade a newly signed free agent until June 1st.

Fourth, Kevin Orie hasn't been in the Cubs system since 2002.

Fifth, not one of the prospects you said you would give to NY would be considered great. Few would even be considered good prospects.

Sixth, if the Cubs wanted A-Rod, they would be offering a 10-year, 325-350 million dollar contract right now.

The Cubs are not going to trade for A-Rod.

visit the mindful mission.

by big_lowitzki on Nov 27, 2007 12:44 PM CST up reply actions

nothing gets by you big

You clearly know your stuff, dude.

by lemon20pie on Nov 27, 2007 5:45 PM CST up reply actions

He knows his stuff, apparently...

... except to notice the sarcasm in your original post.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 27, 2007 5:51 PM CST up reply actions

The original question

seems to be - is it enough if the Cubs add the dynamic duo of Kosuke Fukudome and his speedy sidekick, Kaz Matsui ("Holey SS Defense, Batman!")?

"Enough" for what? It's probably enough to win the NL Central so long as Milwaukee's bullpen stays shabby and the other Central teams don't improve much (don't count out StL just yet; they may snag a deal unloading Rolen).

Is it "enough" to win the WS, though? Well, if you make the playoffs, anyone can get lucky and win. But it helps to increase your odds. The Cubs team we're imagining (+ Batman and Robin) would need either a lot of luck or some steps forward by Rich Hill, Felix Pie, and one of Jeff Samardzija, Donald Veal or Mark Prior without Soto, Zambrano, Lilly, and Marmol taking any steps back. Another thing that could significantly improve the team is if Ronny Cedeno could play at the ML level like he does everywhere else.

Given that the Cubs team has a lot of upside at C and at CF and with their P, it doesn't make much sense to block that upside with declining veterans. What makes sense, at least to me, is to increase the depth of the talent pool with upside. In the rotation, clear out one of the limited upside pitchers, preferrably Marquis who should bring something back of value, so that there is a rotation spot open for an upside play. Everybody keeps talking about the priced-through-the-roof Bedard - what about the talented but inconsistent (and the much cheaper) Daniel Cabrera? Sure, Marquis could be the better pitcher over the course of 200 innings, but Marquis will never be an Ace and Cabrera could be. If Cabrera isn't doing it after 100 innings and one of Veal, Samardzija, or Prior is showing they deserve a shot, well, then, you can move Cabrera to the pen to make room. If you sign Carlos Silva, you can't move him to the pen. You're stuck with him.

So, I'd like to add to the pitching without shopping in the long-term deal aisle. And I'd rather see Wilson Betemit or Ronny Cedeno in the SS mix than Kazuo Matsui, but maybe Hendry's scouts have seen something in KazMat, so we'll see.

by DGU on Nov 27, 2007 5:59 AM CST reply actions

Gonna be nice and keep reply to one word...

...yawn.

WHy waste your fingers to TCS on the likes of what anything that is being talked about being rumored that the Cubs will do? It's not even worth it, seriously. Matsui, Fukudome, Silva or any of the endless rumors, will not be enough to put the Cubs ahead of the DBacks or the Rockies.

I am hoping that Hendry has something much bigger up his sleeve, besides a bratwurst.

by lemon20pie on Nov 27, 2007 6:28 AM CST up reply actions

And yet you have an A-Rod...

trade solution? You were kidding about that, correct?

A-Rod was there for the taking as a FA, that is after Boras unzipped and everyone laughed.

Fukudome solves 2 big issues with 1 signing. If it takes Matsui also to get there, fine; especially if it means Fonzie moves down the lineup.

Pitching however wins the WS. The Cubs are not as deep there as some would believe. Woody, Howry and Marmol gives a solid back-end. They still need a strong LRP presence. Will Eyre bounce back?

The fact that Dempster is being talked about being in the rotation scares the living shit out of me. No way will the Cubs win with the starting rotation they now carry unless some guys pitch well over their heads (Hill/Marshall) or have career years (Z/Lilly/Marquis).

Our grandparents used to say, "I hope the Cubs win the Series before I die". Now teenagers are saying it. Let's change that next season!

by blackhawk24 on Nov 27, 2007 8:01 AM CST up reply actions

hmmm....

No way will the Cubs win with the starting rotation they now carry unless some guys pitch well over their heads (Hill/Marshall) or have career years (Z/Lilly/Marquis).

Yea - no way the Cubs win with essentially the same pitching staff as last year, which was 2nd best in the NL.

They sucked.

visit the mindful mission.

by big_lowitzki on Nov 27, 2007 5:50 PM CST up reply actions

daniel cabrera

love this idea, the o's are probably getting tired of him, just the kind of young guy with upside that id think hendry would look at. could be a great home run, and if he still cant put it together, i doubt youd have to give up a ton to get him. i like this idea a lot.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Nov 27, 2007 8:34 AM CST up reply actions

Thanks for answering the original question

about whether Fukudome and Matsui would be enough.

A lot of folks out there are saying what they don't want to see, or proposing scenarios that will never happen.

Cabrera is an interesting proposal. At least it would be the Cubs buying low for once. It seems like they always buy high and sell low.

"It's a long fly to left field. And there it goes. Ahhh crap." -- Harry Caray

by cubz1963 on Nov 27, 2007 1:06 PM CST up reply actions

buying low

I think Hendry has lost credit for some of his great buy-low moves because since then he has had to reup some of those players at higher prices or sell low. Aramis, Dempster, and Derrek Lee were all bought low, but then paid well. Then there are guys like Michael Barrett, Jason Kendall, and Matt Clement that were bought low and are now out of the system.

I think Hendry's due for another buy low, but who knows - maybe Infante was that guy.

by DGU on Nov 27, 2007 1:42 PM CST up reply actions

I can't believe...

... all you guys were up all night debating this issue. Not that it isn't interesting or that you didn't make good points, but do any of you sleep?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 27, 2007 7:23 AM CST reply actions

classic

i didnt even notice that but it is pretty funny to look at the times of these posts. i saw this diary go up at 11:30 as i was about to go to bed and there were zero comments.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Nov 27, 2007 8:39 AM CST up reply actions

My sleep patterns are at the mercy

of one of the newest Cub fans, our 3-month old son. So far baseball statistical analysis tends to put him back to sleep.

by DGU on Nov 27, 2007 10:43 AM CST up reply actions

I've often wondered that

That's why the diaries are key. At this site, you get the best content from the primary blog, and the most additional threads that can be both entertaining and informative.

It took a long time for this site to become the juggernaut that it is, and it's daunting to think about the work involved to build it up. But now, what an asset for Cubs news.

It makes me that much more angry at Bill Conlin for those asinine remarks about bloggers.

Not only were they incredibly insensitive, but also ignorant. I'm a lifelong newspaper guy too, but with a site like this you have people who are passionate enough about the Cubs to be up at all hours contributing information to this site.

Some of it is good, some not (and I've been a party to both of those) -- but it's folks who desperately want Cubs news combing the atmosphere and contributing anything they find.

Newspapers/media are a big part of that. But they can't match the numbers of "field reporters" or their passion in rounding up Cubs news that this site provides. One complements the other.

"It's a long fly to left field. And there it goes. Ahhh crap." -- Harry Caray

by cubz1963 on Nov 27, 2007 1:26 PM CST up reply actions

Agreed, and...

... let me thank all the posters who post breaking news here in diaries when I'm away from the computer, particularly about the Wood signing yesterday.

You are what makes this site what it is -- a place where everyone can come and discuss Cub news and events right away, because so many people are on top of everything.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 27, 2007 5:32 PM CST up reply actions

RE: I'll pitch this: Offer Andruw Jones one year..

Why? First off, why would Jones sign a one year tender offer when he could definitely receive a multi-year contract from the Dodgers or Nationals, hell maybe even the Phillies......and $20M? Have you seen Andruw Jones play the last couple of seasons?

You want to pay $20 million for another outfielder that can't get on base?

Look, just trade whoever it takes to get Carl Crawford......except Pie.....I love Rich Hill, as many of you know.....but if it means landing a YOUNGER Carl Crawford, do it.

Super Mario Galaxy! Get it NOW!

by TheBeerBaron on Nov 27, 2007 8:36 AM CST reply actions

i agree

it is a good debate, hill or crawford, but with all of the pitching we have, id give up rich hill in a deal to get crawford, who really is a rare talent i think. 50+ steals and power still developing, id absolutely love him in the 2-hole.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Nov 27, 2007 8:41 AM CST up reply actions

As The Author of "Two Dominoes"...

... I think KazMat is the key to free Cedeno. Freeing Cedeno may be the key to land Carl Crawford, as they need a shortstop...

by initram on Nov 27, 2007 11:39 AM CST up reply actions

Strongly disagree

Crawford costs you talent, Jones just money.

If he takes the $20 million and helps the Cubs win a World Series -- imagine the contract he could get.

"It's a long fly to left field. And there it goes. Ahhh crap." -- Harry Caray

by cubz1963 on Nov 27, 2007 1:29 PM CST up reply actions

but

there's a good reason crawford costs talent and jones just costs dollars. i dont see the cubs ever having jones long term, so it would cost them dollars and theyd be done with him, which might not be an all bad thing, i just would prefer to see something else.

in crawfords case though, you pay up the talent, because the player you are getting is only going to increase his own talent over the next couple of year, and youd control him longer, at a very reasonable price. when extension time came, who knows if theyd sign him back, but if you trade for him you are going to have a better player in two years than he is now, still playing for you, and for less dollars.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Nov 27, 2007 3:28 PM CST up reply actions

If Piniella had his way

I don't think he wants to settle for the starting staff as is. It doesn't mean Hendry will be able to get anything done, just that I don't think Lou feels real good about either Dempster or Marquis taking the ball every fifth day.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Nov 27, 2007 9:18 AM CST reply actions

'nuff said

that is a very good summary of how I also hope Lou really feels. Now if Jimbo can pull off a couple moves.

SP wins WS.

Our grandparents used to say, "I hope the Cubs win the Series before I die". Now teenagers are saying it. Let's change that next season!

by blackhawk24 on Nov 27, 2007 10:06 AM CST up reply actions

Yeah

I hardly think the pitching staff is set, but maybe that's just some wishful thinking. The Cubs are still a top of the rotation guy away from being better than mediocre. I'm looking forward to the winter meetings next week, but it would be nice if the Cubs can lock up a few of the pieces (Even if other than pitching) before then. If they can lock up Fukudome (Good) and KazMat (Shudder), then I think you can find a pretty good set of 14 from the roster possibilites.

by NO100 on Nov 27, 2007 10:12 AM CST up reply actions

Better than being mediocre?

The Cubs had the 2nd best ERA in the NL last year.

They are better than mediocre as is.

Yes, Marquis and Marshall are inconsistent, that's why they ended the year where they did.

Sure I'd like to see a replacement for Marquis, and Dempster might not be better than him as a starter, but if we go with the last years five and have Dempster fight for a spot, we're not in bad shape and we're certainly above mediocre.

"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella

by El Borto on Nov 27, 2007 11:27 AM CST up reply actions

I meant the team in general

It is a mediocre team.

However, I don't consider the staff to be a great starting staff though the ERA for 2007 was good. First of all, it was a team ERA, not just the starters. Second, the Cubs were good 1 - 5, but there were many factors that went into that (i.e. few injuries, better than projected years for players, and depth.) Many teams had absolute garbage that they were throwing out there for a 4th and 5th starters. The Cubs did have some quality there.

However, when the playofs start, a 4th and 5th starter don't really help you too much. Yes, I still think that the Cubs are a top of the rotation guy away from being a great staff and a great team.

If the Cubs go into 2008 with those guys 1 - 5, I don't see them winning more than 90 games. 90 wins is mediocre.

by NO100 on Nov 27, 2007 12:05 PM CST up reply actions

90 wins

18 games over .500 is far from mediocre, but i agree with everything else you said above.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Nov 27, 2007 12:08 PM CST up reply actions

Perhaps that's semantics

But I'm sure you'd agree that an organization's goals shouldn't stop at 90 wins. If Hendry were to say, "The Cubs have a long term plan and we expect that by 2010 we will win 90 games," that would be a let down, wouldn't it?

I'd like the Cubs to get to a position where they are a force and a feared team - as I'm sure you would. 90 wins doesn't do that and that's what I meant by mediocre.

by NO100 on Nov 27, 2007 12:58 PM CST up reply actions

ok well i agree

but at the same time, if the cubs won 90 games for the next five years id be ecstatic.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Nov 27, 2007 3:30 PM CST up reply actions

81 Wins is Mediocre...

by initram on Nov 27, 2007 12:10 PM CST up reply actions

Mediocre = 90 wins?!?

90 wins was the best record in the NL in 2007.
In the last 3 years, there have been 5 instances of a team having a 90+ win season in the NL.

Regarding ERA

Cubs starters were also #2 in ERA (3.19) and #2 in WHIP (1.30)
Relievers were #3 in ERA (3.76)
Marquis was the only regular starter with an ERA over 4.00 and if Miller and Trachsel never pitched, the team ERA would probably be even lower.

We have a well rounded pitching staff and I think that Z, Lilly and Hill underperformed in the playoffs this year. Z had an incredibly erratic year, Lilly had a uncharacteristic bad start in game two, and Hill is developing.

In short, I'd rather have a better lineup everyday, than fret over the pitching staff which is ok by me.

"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella

by El Borto on Nov 27, 2007 1:03 PM CST up reply actions

The NL didn't have a great team in 2007

They all were mediocre at best and it showed in the World Series. If you want to see two teams that are not mediocre, look at Cleveland and Boston. In any event, it really is semantics. Can you really say that winning only 90 games should be an organizational goal into the future?

The Cubs are a well rounded pitching staff. That's exactly what I said, but they are not great.

As to lineup and staff, I'd rather have both. My wish list for 2008 had an everday RF first on it with another starter second. The Cubs probably have a good enough staff to compete well in the NL next season, but it would be good enough to get crushed by whichever AL representative is there. Another top of the rotation starter might prevent that from happening.

by NO100 on Nov 27, 2007 1:16 PM CST up reply actions

Cubs starters...

... were 2nd in the NL, but their ERA was 4.24, not 3.19.

visit the mindful mission.

by big_lowitzki on Nov 27, 2007 1:17 PM CST up reply actions

my bad

I did take the time to look up the #s, must of read the wrong column or something

"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella

by El Borto on Nov 27, 2007 1:19 PM CST up reply actions

no idea...

how I typed 4.24.

The Cubs starters had an ERA of 4.19.

visit the mindful mission.

by big_lowitzki on Nov 27, 2007 1:24 PM CST up reply actions

Yes ...

they had the second best ERA. But their starters were amazingly healthy. You don't want to construct a team that must stay healthy to win.

Granted, most teams would be in trouble if they lost their No. 1 starter. But I still think a guy like Dontrelle Willis could be a 1A.

What would it take to get him in Chicago?

"It's a long fly to left field. And there it goes. Ahhh crap." -- Harry Caray

by cubz1963 on Nov 27, 2007 1:32 PM CST up reply actions

What?

But I still think a guy like Dontrelle Willis could be a 1A.

Willis would have been the 6th best starter on the Cubs last year.

Willis has pitched 5 full seasons - two of which were ace caliber (03, 05), two of which were around, or slightly above, league average (04, 06), and one of which was pretty bad (07).

His K/9 has remained relatively constant, but his BB/9 significantly increased in each of the last two seasons, as has his HR/9, his average against, and his WHIP.

He simply is not a "1A" pitcher that I would want to rely on, nor is he a better pitcher than Lilly or Hill.

visit the mindful mission.

by big_lowitzki on Nov 27, 2007 1:56 PM CST up reply actions

The best thing about Lou is...

... that he won't stand pat. If something isn't working in spring training, he'll try something else. And that would include going to Hendry and trying to get him to trade someone if he doesn't think he'll help the team, or if he's hurting the team (I am absolutely certain that is the reason Michael Barrett was traded).

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 27, 2007 11:29 AM CST up reply actions

Totally agree

I think Lou at least expects his pitchers to keep the team in the game, and not be prone to an inning where they blow up, or where they consistently give up 4+ runs in every outing.

The idea of Dempster back in the rotation scares the CRAP out of me. He may in fact be worse than Marquis, and we don't need two of that ilk.

Z
Lilly
Hill
Marshall
Marquis

Hart to work long relief.

With Eyre, Howry, Wood and Marmol, I think we'll be fine.

Best case secenario, Prior can come back and pitch sub-3.75 ERA for the second half of the season.

by SouthsideCub on Nov 27, 2007 11:27 AM CST up reply actions