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Around SBN: Holy War Week Brings out the Worst in Fans

Well, We're Getting Close

Just before game one, which ended in a rousing 5-3 win for the White Sox over the Astros, I was reminded, for some peculiar reason, of a Rocky and Bullwinkle cartoon.

You know the one -- it's one of a series where Bullwinkle is a magician on stage, saying to Rocky, "Hey Rocky! Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat?"

Rocky, skeptical, says, "Again?"

To which Bullwinkle responds, "Nothing up my sleeve, presto!"

This is the one where he pulls Rocky out of his hat and says, "Well, I'm getting close."

And that's how I felt about the first World Series game in my hometown in 46 years (I can't say "in my lifetime", as some of you can, because "my lifetime" stretches just a bit farther than that -- not long enough to have a conscious memory of the 1959 World Series).

Close. Eight miles from where we all wish it would be, and after my friend Mike from California (a Sox fan who came in for the series, and paid an ungodly sum for tickets to games one and two) dropped Mike off, we drove right by Wrigley Field on our way back to my house and I said, "Next year on this date -- we'll be right here!"

Mike said to me, and I agree, that if the White Sox win this series -- and I think they will, incidentally, more on this in a bit -- that it will be good for the Cubs. Goosing them a little bit, putting a burr under them to win just as their South Side cousins have done, etc.

More on this later too, including some Cub rumors I heard last night.

We arrived several hours early, to avoid traffic, and succeeded in that -- driving and parking were easy, and no, I'm not going to reveal my how-to-get-to-the-Cell-with-no-hassles secrets here! The "security bubble" that Chicago police supposedly had around the ballpark was nonexistent -- yes, they were preventing cars from driving into about a square-half-mile radius, but no one was checking pedestrians, as we were, walking into the area to make sure they had tickets to the game. So we walked over to Grandstand, the large souvenir shop about three blocks west of the Cell -- there was a line about 1/2 a block long, shorter than earlier in the week but still too long to wait, especially since it had started raining lightly.

Mike, who knows the city very well, then toured us down some Bridgeport-area streets; we walked by the home at 3536 S. Lowe which was the longtime home of Mayor Richard J. Daley (father of the current mayor) and his family, and then we entered the ballpark, thronged full of crowds entering nearly three hours before the first pitch.

It was still drizzling lightly so, with not too large a crowd on the concourse (later on, it would become almost un-navigable as we tried to wander to soak up the atmosphere), so I waited in a short line at the gift shop, where I spent way too much on souvenirs.

Hey, it's the WORLD SERIES in my town! Got a couple of souvenir baseballs, programs, a cap, and some stuff for Mark.

On one of the advertising boards in the outfield, there was a huge "Watch The World Series On Fox" billboard.

This is strange on two levels. First, if you're at the game, you're not watching on TV. OK, you're saying, it's for the TV audience. But if you see it on TV -- you're already watching Fox. So what's the point?

We scratched our heads for a while trying to remember what this was covering up -- finally realizing it was the out-of-town scoreboard, which, of course, isn't needed during this series.

Before I talk about the game itself, let me stay a bit on-topic here by telling you about some good Cub trade/free agent rumors I heard last night:


  • The Cubs have been offered Juan Pierre in trade from the Marlins. Florida wants Corey Patterson and Rich Hill in return, and the Cubs are hesitating because they don't want to give up Hill.

    This is wrong thinking, in my mind. The Cubs need a leadoff man. Pierre fits the bill. Hill may become a decent major league pitcher, but in 2005 he looked overmatched. I'd do this deal.

  • The #1 position player free agent on whom Jim Hendry has his sights set is... and I know this will please many of you... Brian Giles.

    Hummina hummina. Giles' power numbers were way down in 2005 (only 15 HR), but he did draw a huge number of walks (119) and hit 38 doubles. He'd hit way better away from Petco Park as his home field, and one thing he'd bring to the Cubs would be a hard-nosed attitude and some leadership, which the club sorely needs.

    Pierre in CF, Giles in RF, Matt Murton in LF? Sounds pretty good to me.

  • Finally, the Cubs are looking seriously at the Orioles' B. J. Ryan as a setup man. This is a move I'd make, in a heartbeat. Ryan throws heat, strikes out a ton of people, doesn't give up walks or homers (only four in 2005 in 70 IP), and best of all for a guy who throws like this, isn't a headcase. Do it!

One of the first things I said to Mike and Mike during BP, due to the drizzle and cold air and the fact that the balls didn't seem to be carrying, and that Jose Contreras and Roger Clemens were pitching, was: "Nobody's going to hit any homers tonight."

Oh, well. I've been wrong before. Three solo homers left the yard, with Joe Crede's fourth-inning shot off Wandy Rodriguez, which just made it past the outstretched glove of Willy Taveras, being the difference in the game.

Wandy Rodriguez? He came in when Roger Clemens left; Clemens has been having hamstring problems and in the cold weather, it must have been terribly painful. You could tell Clemens was laboring through his fifty-four pitch, two-inning outing. Rodriguez, who I saw pitch against the Cubs several times this year (and not very well: a 6.08 ERA and 1-3 record), kept the Astros in the game, at least till the Crede homer.

The real difference in the game, though, was a bizarre play in which the Astros appeared on their way to a 3-6-1 double play in the second inning, courtesy of A. J. Pierzynski. But SS Adam Everett just stood there. The whole Astros team just stood there, in fact, while Carl Everett casually crossed the plate with a run which at the time made the score 2-1 White Sox, and it didn't seem that important, especially when Juan Uribe doubled in Pierzynski.

But if this run doesn't score, then the score in the eighth inning is tied, and Russ Springer probably isn't in the game, Dan Wheeler is -- or maybe even Brad Lidge, since Phil Garner, like Ozzie Guillen, isn't afraid to use his closer in the eighth inning. And that extra run that gave the White Sox a 5-3 lead doesn't score.

But that's how the White Sox have been winning games all year -- EVERY time they get an opportunity which calls for a certain thing to happen, it happens. They hit-and-ran with Everett; it worked perfectly. Pierzynski should have been picked off in that 8th inning, but the Astros froze yet again. It's uncanny, almost -- I've never seen a team play this way, where absolutely everything goes right for an entire season (save the few weeks in August and September when the White Sox' lead dwindled to nearly nothing). Two more perfect examples of this were Crede's two defensive gems, each saving an Astros run, and thus the game, and there you have the early favorite for Series MVP.

Bobby Jenks was sent in during the eighth inning, after Neal Cotts had gotten a couple of key strikeouts, and this is more of Guillen's unconventional thinking. Guillen is managing much like a manager would have 25 years ago -- trusting his starters deeper into games, and not hesitating to use his closer before the ninth inning. It's working, so he looks like a genius.

It gets to the point, as Mike mentioned to me as we were walking out of the park, where the other team starts looking around saying to themselves (and this being a family blog, I'll censor a bit), "What the f***?"

And once you've done that, you are done.

I've been wrong before (as recently as last night -- way wrong about "no home runs"), but this feels like a World Series that could be a White Sox sweep. The only thing that might derail that would be Roy Oswalt, a pitcher as hot as the Sox pitchers are, in game three. Clemens may not start again if he's hurt -- and who knows, that might have been his last major league start. But the fans in Florida two years ago thought that too. (Footnote: in that 2003 World Series game, thought at the time to be Clemens' last, one of the Yankee pitchers who relieved him was... Contreras.)

Impressions: at times, it felt like just any other game. I found myself wondering why Rodriguez was staying in so long, since he's usually a starting pitcher, and then I'd remember that this is the World Series! That's why you save a pitcher like that, for exactly that situation. But by the time the seventh inning hit, we were on our feet most of the time, and you could feel the tension in the crowd -- NONE of whom left before the last out was registered by Jenks -- who could become a dominant closer in short order, if he can do two things:

  • harness his curveball;
  • not eat himself out of the game; he's put on considerable weight even since the highlights they show on the video board were shot, only a month or so.
I have some pictures from the game which I haven't had time to download, but will post later today, and I also have some new Wrigley Field bleacher project photos from yesterday that I'll probably post tomorrow.

Hey, it's the WORLD SERIES, in my town. You can't not be excited if you are a baseball fan, at the chance to attend.

Finally, sign seen, though I couldn't see who was holding this up:

I Sold My Sister For This Ticket

Nuff said.

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I definitely like that outfield...
What's your thought about the infield? It may not make sense to those of you who know the ins-and-outs of baseball strategy better than I do, but I love watching Garciaparra play and hope he's on the team in some fashion.

by teacher tom on Oct 23, 2005 8:07 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Where's Chuck?!?
He would love that deal! If Hendry doesn't do it, he will probably be more unhappy with him than he already is.

I did support no Rich Hill trades before, but he really disappointed me, but I understand why Jim doesn't want to trade him. But we really really need a leadoff man.

But the best part of that deal: "Florida wants Corey Patterson."  He found a new home for Corey, and he isn't doing it? He must have a lot of options to trade Corey if he doesn't do this trade.

I hadn't thought about Giles being a leader on this team, but if he can be one it would be very good.  Plus, I've heard he has amazing numbers at Wrigley.

I love the idea of getting B.J. Ryan!  He could set up, and if anything happens to Ryan Dempster, we would have Plan B.  The only problem is that I've heard the Yankees want him so it might be a bidding war, but I love these rumors.

Cubbie blue always sPaRkLeS in my eyes.

by sparkles721 on Oct 23, 2005 9:39 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Juan Pierre...ugh
The 2005 Juan Pierre was the same as the 2004 Corey Patterson, minus the power.  Just because he's fit the mold of a leadoff guy in the past doesn't mean he'll fit the bill next year.

by andyrut on Oct 23, 2005 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kind of...
But he didn't strike out as much as Corey did, and he scored a few more runs.  He was still better than Corey, only like you say minus the power.

I like Pierre, although not as much as Rafael Furcal.  You say just because he's done it in the past, doesn't mean he will do it in the future.  But if he has done it in the past, it means that he is capable of doing it next year.  He was banged up a little this year, so he wasn't at his best.  

Even though he wasn't at his best, he was still 4 runs short of scoring 100 runs for the third straight year. And if he gets banged up, that is the only area of concern for Juan Pierre because if his legs aren't healthy its trouble.  But he played a lot of games so I don't think health is a big concern.  I think Chuck has a better argument for Pierre.

Cubbie blue always sPaRkLeS in my eyes.

by sparkles721 on Oct 23, 2005 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great recap Al
Enjoy the World Series.

by mike42 on Oct 23, 2005 10:02 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

thanks for the cub rumours...
perhaps you can give us an "a y rumour rating" as you do for concerts, something like:

a = absolutely lead-pipe cinch to happen
b = bears watching
c = cold, inebriated fans talking
d = don't bet the rent
f = fuhgeddaboutit

i hope giles is an "a" and pierre is a "b".

by dc60123 on Oct 23, 2005 12:01 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The way I heard them...
... it sounded like both of them were "b" at this point.

Nothing can happen re: free agents till five days after the WS ends, anyway.

by Al on Oct 23, 2005 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not sold on Pierre
I would much,much rather overpay for Furcal than
risk Pierre.  I admit he seems to make things happen
but I don't see him as a great contact hitter and as
the saying goes you can not steal first.  Girardi
would probably turn Corey into the next  Jim Edmonds
but since we can't do anything with him I am resigned
to him suddenly starrng elsewhere.
I also think it is nuts to spend big time closer money
on Ryan to set up and I don't see anyway this will happen. There are going to be 6 or more teams
many with  BIG budgets ( Mets, Red Sox etc) closer
shopping so other than paying him an INSANE amount of money would Ryan want to set up for the Cubs ?

Spend the money on Furcal and or Giles

Jessica

by jessica on Oct 23, 2005 1:47 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

juan pierre
I'm not a huge  Juan Pierre fan but I'd probably go ahead and do this deal.  A .350 lifetime OBP and 50 SBs a season is nothing to sneeze at.  Corey IS something to sneeze at.  Or even shield your eyes from.

The Cubs should let Hill go and give him a chance.  Do you trust the Cub organization to teach him the splitter or slider or change he so desperately needs?  Trade him to Florida and let him learn a third pitch.  He and Willis will make a duo who, along with Girardi managing, McFail will be able to point to and say, "You want to know how great the Cub organization is?  Sir, look no further than the Florida Marlins."

by TR on Oct 23, 2005 2:12 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Simple
You do this deal in a heartbeat.  You are giving up NOTHING for a guy whith 3-200 hit seasons.

And that doesn't preclude you from STILL signing Furcal.

by Ivychat on Oct 23, 2005 4:47 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

chuck
Right on. The trade is an immediate win because we don't lose anything. Rich Hill is a good PROSPECT, but didn't show that he is a definite hit as an ML pitcher. If you can turn him and the useless Patterson into Pierre, its a no brainer as far as I am concerned.

Would be a great start to the offseason.

by Slaky311 on Oct 23, 2005 11:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually...
The sign said, "I Sold My Sister... uh, I mean my Wife... I mean my sister.... I mean my wife for This Ticket."

by Ivychat on Oct 23, 2005 7:57 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Juan Pierre
Have you ever seen him run in person?

Hendry couldn't make this deal fast enough, as far as I'm concerned.

by drone1047 on Oct 24, 2005 9:08 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Lineup
Pierre - CF
Murton - LF
Lee - 1B
A Ram - 3B
Giles - RF
Furcal - SS
Barrett - C
Cedeno - 2B

SP: Zamboni, Prior, Maddux, Millwood, Wood and his DL cohorts.

Setup: Dempster
Closer: BJ Ryan

by Ivychat on Oct 24, 2005 9:50 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

That's an awful lot of money...
... you're signing three big-money free agents there (Giles, Furcal and Millwood), and spending money by trading for Ryan and Pierre, who won't be cheap, as well as knowing you're going to have to give Derrek Lee an extension.

Spending money in and of itself does not win championships. Spending money wisely wins championships.

Also, I leave Dempster as closer and Ryan as setup man. Dempster has now done the job for an entire season and done it well. Ryan also did the job this past year, but after having given Dempster a large dollar deal, I think he's got to be given the job.

by Al on Oct 24, 2005 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Money Shmoney
The dollars are simple:

Pierre - $6 million
Furcal - $11 million
Millwood - $9 million
Ryan - $8 million
Lee - $4 million increase

That's $38 million.

Offsets from opening day 2005:

Sosa - $16 million
Alou - $2 million (buyout)
Garciaparra - $8 million
Hawkins - $4 million
Remlinger - $4 million
Burnitz - $5 million
Patterson - $3 million

That's $42 million.  And, don't forget another $21 million drops off after 2006 when Wood's $12 million and Maddux's $9 million goes away.

Spending money on Furcal, Pierre and Ryan is wise.

by Ivychat on Oct 24, 2005 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What about
plus 2.5M (Wood)
plus 2.5M (Ramirez)
plus 2M (Dempster(
plus Z arbitration

That's nearly 10M.

by Ienpw on Oct 24, 2005 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sources
Well, more coems from Todd Walker's $2.5mm.

Also, there's no reason you can't structure a deal like they did for Maddux.  Less in year 1, more in years 2 and three.

Give BJ Ryan $27 million, but only $6 million in 2006 with $10.5 in 2007 and 2008.

This is easy stuff.

by Ivychat on Oct 24, 2005 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Burden
Which will put us in a financial burden when Zambrano and Prior are free agents. Granted money comes off the books, but 10.5M for a reliever? Give me a breka.

by Ienpw on Oct 24, 2005 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was wrong
This is the dumbest thing.  So, it's OK to give a reliever $24 million over 3 years, just so long as you do it $8 million per year and not $4 million the first year and $10 million in years 2 and 3?

Gotta love the math they teach now.  8+8+8 does not equal 4+10+10.

by Ivychat on Oct 24, 2005 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

RP
I am not all for giving a setup man $8M, and the way you give it, backloaded contracts can bite you in the @$$.

by Ienpw on Oct 24, 2005 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

al- which of the money he talks about...
would not seem wise? each name he mentions is a major upgrade over the 2005 version. where are your objections? thanks.
dc

by dc60123 on Oct 24, 2005 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

your lineup sucks Dusty
c'mon.  For as much shit as you give Baker about lineups, this is bad.  You spilt up Ramirez and Lee and you get Giles and his 120 BB's in front of Lee or Ramirez.  Murton to the 6-hole to drive in runs.  C'mon Dusty!  :-D

I like the rotation and Ryan is a must with the bullie as bad as it is.

Since the $21 million is off the books in '07, I get Nomar for 2B--maybe a $5M base and another $3 or $4 in incentives.

by socalbob on Oct 24, 2005 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Stooopid
Yeah.  Let's put a defensive liability at a new position which will require his surgically repaired groin to make repeated pivots on all double plays.

Nomar at second is probably the dumbest idea I've ever heard.

Well, other than giving Korey at bats at leadoff.

by Ivychat on Oct 24, 2005 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

CP...
is going to become the new leadoff guy for Girardi! :)
Cubbie blue always sPaRkLeS in my eyes.

by sparkles721 on Oct 24, 2005 5:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great reply
you don't care to comment on how lame your lineup is when you bash Dusty all year about his.  But you care to comment on Nomar at 2B.  You are a pretty funny dude.  Talk about "stoopid."  Jeez.

Did I miss Nomar playing injured the last 2 months?  I thought I saw the games with him playing.  And now after a whole off season to get stronger and heal, he can't play the IF.  Yeah right, Chuck.

Did Grresnpan hike the interest rates again thorwing your world into hysteria?

by socalbob on Oct 25, 2005 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Still stooopid
So, 3rd is analogus to 2nd in terms of pivot on the DP how?

And, your support of Dusty's lineup only means that you think Korey/Neifi 1 & 2 is smart.  I mean, if my bashing it was wrong that's only because the criticism is wrong because Dusty's decision was correct.

So you are in favor of Korey leadoff, Neifi 2nd, and Nomar and his formerly shredded groin taking a new position where the groin will have to move in ways it never has had to move before.

FYI: Greenspan's replacement was announced yesterday.  The markets cheered.  Same will happen when Dusty goes.

by Ivychat on Oct 25, 2005 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

hello pot this is kettle
Korey and Neifi was bad and I never supported it.  Apparently you need your children to read for you.  Or are they in the AFL visiting with their other dad?  :-D

You rake Dusty all year and then you post a STOOPID line-up and I call you on it.  So, you regress talking about Nomar.  And then regress further talking about me and liking Dusty's line-ups.  I could regress and say you are pretty dumb to think Cedeno is a better option than Nomar.  But I let that slide.  This was about line-ups.  And I threw a little Nomar signing for 2B in the end.

No, didn't care for Dusty's line-ups and certainly don't care for yours.  You put a bonehead lineup out there keeping Furcal 6th and Murton 2nd and keeping Giles behind Ramirez and Lee.  That's a really bad line-up and doesn't balance the team or keep the speed together at the top.  You whiffed badly and continually avoid it.  But it's okay to bash Dusty, right?

Your Nomar take is hilarious.  A pivot at 2B is no more strain on the body than actually swinging a bat.  The hips open up to 1B on the throw just like the hips clear when swinging.  Yep, those off-balance one-legged throws on slow rollers and bunts from the 3B position are nothing on the body when compared to turning a DP.  Funny.  Surprised you actually wrote that.  Is that really you or some imposter?

I'm just busitng your chops, but your arguments (replies) are off the topic.

by socalbob on Oct 25, 2005 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Still still stooopid
"A pivot at 2B is no more strain on the body than actually swinging a bat"

If it's that tough, then, we agree that Nomar should be gone.  And, BTW, jumping, pushing off 2nd and avoiding a sliding runner is more stressful than a side-step and swing or the off balance throw at 3rd.  And given how poor a glove Nomar is, by all means let's try him somewhere he DOESN'T know how to play.

Re: my lineup.

I don't think Giles 5th is bad.  In fact, with his decline in power, batting him 4th is stooopid, especially as it takes away ABs from A-Ram (each spot lower in the order is about 20 ABs fewer per season).  And no speed at the top?  Murton's got better speed than you seem to realize.  And, with his high-teen, low 20 HR power and high OBP, I want him on in front of Lee and A Ram.

Want Furcal 1 and Pierre 6th?  I could live with that.  But Furcal seems a better fit lower inthe order as Pierre is basically a singles hitter who steals.  I could also live with Barrett 6th.

by Ivychat on Oct 25, 2005 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

you answered the questions!
Hoo-ray!

I know we disagree with Nomar.  He played and played well.  If you can play SS or 3B.  He can play 2B.

Murton is not a 50 SB guy although he has good speed.  Furcal is.  You keep Furcal and Pierre together at the top.  If one fails to get one, the other can still create a run with his wheels infront of Lee, Giles, and Ramirez.

I like Murton 6th right after Ramirez.  Why?  Because A Ram doesn't need the protection like Lee.  He has patience and very good gap power.  Him hitting 6th is better than 2nd because his 18-25 HR's and 2B's will generate more offense than Furcal hitting 6th.

Well, if Hendry can come through it will be fun to discuss all these moves.  I'm not holding my breath.

by socalbob on Oct 26, 2005 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why not both...
Pierre and Furcal. Dusty says he likes speed so why not give him 2 options in the line-up. I know you guys might think he could screw this up but, what pressure on a defense if you have Pierre on 2nd and Furcal on 1st with Lee & Ramirez coming up to bat. As I Cubs fan, I drool at this scenario. Hell that's a double steal threat with a fly ball to score at least one. :::DROOOOOL:::

by chroniccub on Oct 24, 2005 10:01 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

How bout this...
I dont know about pierre...he is not a leadoff man in my opinion. If McKeon didn't play him in the 1 spot I am sure I wouldn't. But if we could get him, it might be good with Furcal, etc.

Furcal-SS
Pierre-CF
Lee-1B
Ramirez-3B
Giles-RF
Walker-2B
Murton-LF
Barrett-C

Big Z, Prior, Woody, Millwood, Mad-Dog

Demp-CP, Ryan-STP, Novoa, Ohman, Weurtz, Dotel

by KChiCubs on Oct 24, 2005 7:23 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

No problem with
Pierre not in the #1 hole, but he doesn't have the power for 2.

Gotta bat him 8th.

by Ivychat on Oct 24, 2005 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

This trade is...
Derrek Lee all over again and I fully support the acquisition at the discussed cost. Hopefully this time our manager won't have to get hit over the head with Triple Crown stats to use it right.

by jameslcrockett on Oct 27, 2005 3:14 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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