Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Explaining Jeremy Lin's Early, Surprising Success

Open Thread: 2006 NLCS, Game 7

Good news!

What's the good news, you're saying?

No matter what -- unless there's a driving rainstorm in New York tonight -- the NLCS is OVER after today. This has got to have been the dullest seven-game series ever.

Cardinals at Mets, 7 pm CT. (Series tied 3-3) TV: Fox

Rob Neyer says Perez is "the worst game seven starter ever". I don't doubt that, but since that link is to an ESPN Insider article, and I don't have Insider, I'll have to take his word for it. (And no, that's not an invitation to post the rest of the article, but if any of you have Insider and want to BRIEFLY summarize it, feel free.)

Discuss amongst yourselves.

Comment 238 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

I agree.
The Cardinals don't do very well with lefties, but Jeff Suppan dominated the Mets the other day.

Go Perez!  I like him.

Cubbie Blue will always sPaRkLe in my eyes, but please stop losing. PLEASE!

by sparkles721 on Oct 19, 2006 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Game 7..
..is still game 7.  Despite the starters and the teams involved, desperation baseball is always worth watching.
Soriano
Theriot
DLee
Ramirez
CLee
Jones
Barrett
Izturis

by Will23 on Oct 19, 2006 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Rob Neyer...
...basically took the season and career stats of everyone who started the last game of a best-of-seven or best-of-nine series (no fancy sabermetrics stats -- earned runs, games won, etc.) and he ranked last in basically all of them.

by cwyers on Oct 19, 2006 4:45 PM CDT reply actions  

Thanks.
I have no doubt it's true -- Perez had a putridly bad season.

And you know what? If the Mets want to deal him, I'd take him. He is 25 years old in December, he's lefthanded, and at 22 he had a fine, fine season for the Pirates.

by Al Yellon on Oct 19, 2006 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oliver Perez
will have a very short leash I would imagine, especially with Darren Oliver throwing 6 shut-out innings in game 3. I guess randolph is just going with experience. besides, anybody not named john maine will go tonight if they have to. I also have a hunch the mets will score big tonight for some reason, even after suppan's surprisingly good game 3 against them. the place should be rockin'

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Oct 19, 2006 5:05 PM CDT reply actions  

Just passing time till Saturday.
Perez is going down tonight.  Have you seen his ERA?  The Redbirds have been swinging the bats but not closing the deal.  We should have won the game last night after the first winning, but we let it slip through our fingers.  

With Suppan on the mound, that mistake won't happen twice.  Perez is the worst game 7 starter the Mets could have picked.  He's going to tired as the Cards lay off pitches early and take 'em yard in the 5th inning.  Perez runs out of pitches and steam real quick, so if LaRussa does his job right, we will be celebrating in Detroit.

by Cardinal Country on Oct 19, 2006 5:05 PM CDT reply actions  

Pretty confident
for a team that lost the season series to the worst team in the league.

by tommy veryzer on Oct 19, 2006 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

don't think he'll make it
to the 5th. Randolph will yank him at the first sign of trouble.

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Oct 19, 2006 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

"If LaRussa does his job right"
HAHAHAHAHAHA - when has THAT ever happened???

I can't wait until Perez shuts you guys down - and WE will be ones on our way to Detroit!

"...Someday we'll look back on this and it will all seem funny"

by Speedywheels on Oct 19, 2006 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

he obviously did something right
if the cardinals are in game 7 of the nlcs, as much i dont like it
Without a WS in 07 or 08--- AC 5 63 100 Wait, theres not enough room on that sign in right feild for triple digits. We Better Win Soon!!!

by LilLPLancer23 on Oct 19, 2006 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

You are a goof!
Go back to Cardinal country and bemoan Larussa.  Who cares if he doesn't kiss Ozzie's butt! He's been at the helm for 2 WS appearances, go back to your tilt-a-whirl!

by DudeVf1 on Oct 20, 2006 12:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

You're wrong again!!!!
The real answer to, "What's the good news, you're saying," is that I can have a conversation with myself for hours and hours again tonight!!!!!!!!

But not until later, I need to go to the gym first.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 19, 2006 5:06 PM CDT reply actions  

please not tonight!
pig out at chipotle, then get two orders of pad thai so you can pass out by 9. mixing adderall with morgan and cokes is not the answer ;/

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Oct 19, 2006 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Rebuttal
  1. I'm going to get Chipotle in a couple hours
  2. I'm about to head out to the gym in a little bit
  3. No pad thai today
  4. I never mixed them.  I take my adderall very early in the day and I had one drink last night when I got out of class bc I had a long ass three days.
  5. More to come.....
"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 19, 2006 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Dammit...
You got me thinking Chipotle... I don't have a car, but I asked my friend if he wanted. He's already started drinking for the night. Bastard.
Seriously, I don't need to win in '07 or '08. I can take two more 90-loss seasons if we have some talent to build with. Let's start over and do this right.

by tyger1147 on Oct 19, 2006 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Just another reason why
I'm a big city person.  I can walk a couple blocks and be there in no time.
"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 19, 2006 5:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well....
I live in a city with nearly three-quarters of a million people in the metropolitan area.

Is that as big as Chicago or New York or LA? No. But it's big.

Omaha is one of the most spread out places in the entire country. It is the most non-car (walking or bike) unfriendly city in the country.

But even so, it would have "only" been a mile. I just didn't want to walk the mile (so I went and played an hour of raquetball instead).

Seriously, I don't need to win in '07 or '08. I can take two more 90-loss seasons if we have some talent to build with. Let's start over and do this right.

by tyger1147 on Oct 19, 2006 9:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd rather be
shot than stuck living in Omaha.  

Walking doesn't bother me, I guess that goes with living in a place like Chicago, New York, Boston, and etc...

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 19, 2006 9:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Omaha is the place to be.
Not that I've been especially fond of it... but in ten years, Omaha will be as popular, if not more so than Pittsburg, Cincinnati, etc. Don't know why I think that.......... But it will be.
Seriously, I don't need to win in '07 or '08. I can take two more 90-loss seasons if we have some talent to build with. Let's start over and do this right.

by tyger1147 on Oct 19, 2006 9:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd also rather be
shot than stuck living in either of those places :)
"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 19, 2006 10:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

you
can't be serious.  nobody grows up and says "i want to live in pittsburgh, cincinnati, etc when i grow up"

by Strickland843 on Oct 19, 2006 10:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe people
who grow up in Detroit.
"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 19, 2006 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

also
that's like saying in 10 years more people are going to be into golden showers

by Strickland843 on Oct 19, 2006 10:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

NOT TONIGHT!
It's game 7. I will hunt you down and beat you with a board with a nail in it. Consider yourself warned.
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Oct 19, 2006 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

The best thing
that could happen tonight would be if a meteor hit Shea, and neither team could play in the series. Put someone else- ANYONE ELSE -in the Series.

Please, God-we don't ask for much...........

by tommy veryzer on Oct 19, 2006 5:18 PM CDT reply actions  

A baby for Prior!
Maybe that was his problem this year- "sympathy pains!"

by tommy veryzer on Oct 19, 2006 5:24 PM CDT reply actions  

Here's the money paragraph:
Perez is almost certainly the worst pitcher who's ever started a Game 7. There are 94 pitchers in the study. Perez won three games this season, which places him 94th on the list. His winning percentage this season was .188, which is 94th on the list. His career winning percentage is .411, which is 94th on the list. His career ERA is 4.67, which is 93rd on the list.  

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2006/insider/columns/story?columnist=neyer_rob&id=2631757

His best showing was in career wins at 79th place.

"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" -Homer J. Simpson

by Whitebacon on Oct 19, 2006 5:28 PM CDT reply actions  

Interestingly enough...
you can access the article using your phone's web browser-no insider required.
"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" -Homer J. Simpson

by Whitebacon on Oct 20, 2006 3:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

Go Mets!!
Go Hawkeyes...Beat Michigan!!!

by sue369 on Oct 19, 2006 5:32 PM CDT reply actions  

How was
bingo last night?
"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 19, 2006 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Mets
If the Mets had any sense they would let the Cubs play this game on their behalf and beat the Cardinals yet again this year.

by 08Cubs on Oct 19, 2006 5:59 PM CDT reply actions  

If I remember correctly,
we didn't have very much luck on our last game seven :(
"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 19, 2006 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

And the Cubs lost
their only other game 7 in history (1945), right?

by jazzman56 on Oct 19, 2006 7:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

sigh...
... yes.

There have been only three winner-take-all games in Wrigley Field history: the one you mention above, the one in 2003... and the wild-card playoff game in 1998.

by Al Yellon on Oct 19, 2006 7:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Did you enjoy
being there for the first one?
"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 19, 2006 8:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Belliard
The braids, 'do rag, and jauntily tipped hat aren't nearly as tough when you're hitting .227.
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Oct 19, 2006 7:55 PM CDT reply actions  

Belliard
He makes Neifi look positively anorexic.

by scotteboy on Oct 19, 2006 8:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Don't worry, people
I'm back.  I got off on a little tangent (hard to believe, I know) and getting to the gym and back took a little longer than expected.  I still need to shower and go to Chipotle before the Real World/Road Rules Challenge starts too.
"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 19, 2006 8:05 PM CDT reply actions  

Shut up, loser.
Why don't you stop talking to yourself and go make some real friends for once?
"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 19, 2006 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hey, jerk.
I have plenty of real friends, thank you very much.
"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 19, 2006 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, right.
Your imaginary friend Dr. Francois Garcon doesn't count.
"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 19, 2006 8:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

You better leave him out of this!!!!!
"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 19, 2006 8:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why don't you
do us all a favor and leave?
"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 19, 2006 8:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why
must you hate me so much :(
"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 19, 2006 8:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're
a real piece of work.
"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 19, 2006 8:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm going to go cry
and it's all your fault.
"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 19, 2006 8:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Have fun,
loser.
"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 19, 2006 8:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Al
Since it looks like Prior is more injured than originally though, what do you think about bringing him out of the bullpen once he's ready next season?  He makes it sound like he won't be ready for spring training, so signing an extra good pitcher to make sure we aren't depending on him too much.

It seems like one idea that might work is doing an idea I'm not 100% sold on and trading Barrett, Marshall, and Pie for Vernon Wells, but it would give us a lot of extra cash for this year.  We then could sign Loretta for 2B bc he wouldn't be too pricey and he still hits for a good OBP.  Other than keeping Blanco, I don't know who our other catcher would be.  Molina seems like he'd demand too much, so we could go for someone who's less expensive to platoon.  But with our luck one of our powerhitters would go down and we'd be screwed again.

We'd have:

C Blanco/Molina
1B D-Lee
2B Loretta
SS Izturis (gag.  I'd rather have Theriot and let Izturis come in if he sucks)
3B A-Ram
LF Murton
CF Wells
RF Jones/platoon for lefties (Cruz, but Restovich if we're in a pinch for cash)

Rotation:

Z
Schmidt
Hill
Suppan
Miller/other young guns

Bullpen:
Eyre
Howry
Weurtz
Prior
Dempster
Marmol
Wood (closer)

Bench:
Molina/Blanco (whoever isn't playing that day)
Theriot
Restovich/Jones (whoever isn't playing that day)
Infield guy
OF Guy

Not sure if the bullpen and bench guys add up or not, but the necessary change(s) could be made.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 19, 2006 8:34 PM CDT reply actions  

nice post colossus
I don't think hendry wants to trade barrett but it would be a gutsy move. I also think hendry will stick with izturis because of what they're paying him, and he does play a decent SS. throw out izzy's 2006. if we get enough offense he'll be good enough on D. has nobody seen him play short with the dodgers? he may not have the range as advertised but he does remind me of vizquel after seeing him so much 2 years ago. his "wizard" rep started there. too bad he's a weak stick. flame away but you will see some slick fielding even if it doesn't show up in the fielding bible, if his tommy john wasn't botched that is.

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Oct 19, 2006 8:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

I am...
... as most here know, in favor of such a deal (Barrett, Pie, Marshall, or some variation thereof, for Wells -- and you get Zaun in return, or sign him if he's a free agent, to platoon with Blanco, or I suppose, Molina would be fine as well).

As far as Prior is concerned, frankly, I'd consider non-tendering him.

by Al Yellon on Oct 19, 2006 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Zaun is a FA I believe.
He had a two year deal that's up.  He made $1.5m this past season and would get more than that (still wouldn't break the bank though).

Part of me would much rather keep Barrett and sign Soriano.  We could reshuffle the OF if necessary (like moving Murton CF) or just put Soriano at 2B and sign Roberts for OF.

I'd prefer to focus almost entirely on pitching this off season and just get someone with more power for the OF (like Huff, then put him in RF, move Jones to LF, and Murton to CF), plus getting Loretta for 2B and moving Theriot to SS with Mr. 295 Career OBP on the bench.  We wouldn't be adding nearly as much power if we got someone like Soriano, Wells, or C-Lee, so we'd more 100% dependent on A-Ram and D-Lee staying healthy, with being more developed and consistant, and Barrett having a bat like this year.

We'd have a lot more cash to go ofter Zito, Schdmit, Matsuzaka, Suppan, or etc...  Then we'd have a rotation of:

Z
Zito/Schmidt/Matsuzaka
Hill
Suppan
Miller/young guns

We could trade for Willis too, but like I've said countless times before, we'd most likely have to give up Hill in any deal.  We aren't lucky enough to have a deal like Pie, Marshall, and two or three other guys work.

Don't know why I even bother typing this stuff, it's pointless to even discuss.  I'll just go back to having a conversation with myself while watching Smallvillle and Real World/Road Rules Challenge on DVR.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 19, 2006 9:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ouch
Valentin just took a fastball to the lips.
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Oct 19, 2006 8:35 PM CDT reply actions  

Re: Ouch
That's the hardest he's hit a ball this series.

by scotteboy on Oct 19, 2006 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

chavez
shoulda caught that ball in left. now he hits eck and he's in trouble. big trouble. bad D

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Oct 19, 2006 8:44 PM CDT reply actions  

forget the book
wow. perez gets out of it. amazing

i don't care if most of you hate both teams but this is game 7, and a great one so far.

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Oct 19, 2006 8:48 PM CDT reply actions  

Okay ...
It's taken me thirty-seven years to realize it.  I hate the Cardinals more.  
Coming Soon! Build-A-Bear Workshop's "Sweet Lou" Doll Giveaway!

by Littlerock Rynofan on Oct 19, 2006 8:48 PM CDT reply actions  

Nope, not me.
37 years later, I STILL cannot forgive the Mets. Nope. Never.

by Al Yellon on Oct 19, 2006 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

I didn't say I forgave them. Never!
They're incrementally less offensive than the Deadbirds.  I was one of those girls who threw beer on Mookie Wilson in 1985 ...

Damn those Cardinals.  It'll be a short WS, I'm guessing.

Coming Soon! Build-A-Bear Workshop's "Sweet Lou" Doll Giveaway!

by Littlerock Rynofan on Oct 19, 2006 11:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

has a
game 7 ever ended early because of rain? i for one would love to see the cardinals sent home because they trailed by a run after 7 and the rains came. anything to see the cards suffer. :)

speaking of trivia questions, anyone know the only position player to ever get called for a balk during a game?

by tomas21 on Oct 19, 2006 8:55 PM CDT reply actions  

Perez is pitching the game of his life
Let's see if he can hold the Redbirds through six.
AC036198

by gjdow on Oct 19, 2006 8:58 PM CDT reply actions  

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
go mets. that will go down as one of the best catches in baseball playoff history.

by tomas21 on Oct 19, 2006 9:05 PM CDT reply actions  

That was...
... one of the greatest catches I've ever seen.

by Al Yellon on Oct 19, 2006 9:05 PM CDT reply actions  

if the mets win
chavez will be a mets legend. al, did you see my trivia quesiton?

by tomas21 on Oct 19, 2006 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

well
it was 2 questions, one i know the answer to, one i don't/

has a playoff game 7 ever ended early due to rain?

who is the only position player to have a balk called on them during play?

by tomas21 on Oct 19, 2006 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

The answer...
... is no. No game seven has ever been called early.

What's the answer to the other one? I don't know.

by Al Yellon on Oct 19, 2006 9:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

the answer
is jerry remmy. sometime in the 70s i think. he was playing one of the corner infield spots and was in foul territory when the pitcher started his windup. the umpire, ken kaiser, a notoriously bad umpire, decided to call a balk. the rule has since been clarified to not allow this.

by tomas21 on Oct 19, 2006 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Had to look this up.
It happened on May 1, 1984. Apparently what happened was, Remy had made a bad throw, and chased it into foul territory. He threw it back to pitcher Bruce Hurst, who threw a pitch before Remy crossed into fair territory -- even odder, because Remy was the SECOND BASEMAN.

Here's the even weirder thing: Remy had been the Red Sox' regular 2B for several seasons prior to 1984, and had started for the first month of that season.

After that game, he started only THREE more games, pinch-hit in six others, and then retired.

FWIW, the balk was charged to the pitcher, since by the rules pitchers are the only ones who CAN balk.

by Al Yellon on Oct 19, 2006 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

mor on remy
But Jerry Remy will also long be remembered in the umpiring community. The mild-mannered Jerry Remy did something during a game that baffled the umpires, and sparked a controversy that led to a ruling still in effect to this day in baseball everywhere. During a game in the early 80's, with the pitcher on the mound and in contact with the rubber, Jerry entered foul territory to back-up an appeal attempt at first base.

Now, the umpiring crew that day knew what Jerry had done was illegal. At the start of play all fielders other than the catcher are required to be on fair territory. Jerry was clearly on foul territory. But what the umpires didn't know was exactly how to penalize it. With no other feasible option, the umpires declared a balk.

That ruling rocked the umpiring world. They essentially created a new rule right there on the spot. It caused a grumbling at the highest levels of baseball officiating. Eventually the Director of Baseball Umpire Development at the time, the late Barney Deary, issued a ruling on the play. He declared that any play occurring with a fielder (other than the catcher) on foul territory should be nullified. It should not be ruled a balk.

The idea of nullifying play with less than 8 fielders in fair territory created one of the only, "do-overs," in baseball rules. And it was all because Jerry Remy was trying to be helpful.

the rule now is that the umpire has to ensure that there are 8 position players in fair territroty. if not, whatever play that ensues is considered null and void and replayed. so if murton were to run to the bathroom duriong a pitching change, and the umpire didn't notice it, and then dempster gave up a home run, the home run would be nullified. interesting

by tomas21 on Oct 19, 2006 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

No wonder Remy retired.
Having had this much influence on the rulebook, I guess he figured he'd done his bit for baseball, and got into broadcasting.

by Al Yellon on Oct 19, 2006 10:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

HOLY COW!
What a GREAT catch by Chavez!! He totally robbed Rolen
Soriano
Theriot
DLee
Ramirez
CLee
Jones
Barrett
Izturis

by Will23 on Oct 19, 2006 9:05 PM CDT reply actions  

just witnessed one of the greatest plays...
...in playoff history.

Wow.

All I can say is wow.

PINIELLA!

by theprognosticator on Oct 19, 2006 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Chavez..
..timed his jump perfectly. What a snag!
Soriano
Theriot
DLee
Ramirez
CLee
Jones
Barrett
Izturis

by Will23 on Oct 19, 2006 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

holy shite!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
chavez robbed rolen of a dinger and doubled off edmonds!!!

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Oct 19, 2006 9:05 PM CDT reply actions  

endy chavez
robbing rolen was the greatest catch this year since melky cabrera took a HR away from manny at yankee stadium in a 1-1 game in the 8th. this one was a bit more important though. wow. chavez went over the wall about 2 feet for that one, and came down with a snow cone

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Oct 19, 2006 9:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

WOW
That was one of the most perfect catches that I've ever seen.
AC036198

by gjdow on Oct 19, 2006 9:06 PM CDT reply actions  

Endy Chavez
might have just saved the Mets' season right there.

by gauchodirk on Oct 19, 2006 9:06 PM CDT reply actions  

In case anyone was curious...
Chavez is six feet tall, and I believe the walls at Shea are eight feet (correct me if I'm wrong).

by gauchodirk on Oct 19, 2006 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Go me
It was mostly a guess, as most parks have eight foot walls, at least if they look like Shea's do. Chavez really got up there.

by gauchodirk on Oct 19, 2006 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

absolutely
snowconed it too. crazy how much an inch one way or another can change history.

by tomas21 on Oct 19, 2006 9:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

This game...
... might make the entire boring NLCS worthwhile after all.

by Al Yellon on Oct 19, 2006 9:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

That was
the greatest defensive play I have ever seen in a Game 7.

All hail Endy Chavez!

(Which is the great thing about October.  We have no idea who is going to be a hero.)

Piniella is the sympton, not the disease

by Josh Timmers on Oct 19, 2006 9:10 PM CDT reply actions  

And that is scary because....
... Neifi Perez will be eligible to play in the World Series.

by Al Yellon on Oct 19, 2006 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Considering the circumstances and the situation...
...that was one of the greatest defensive plays I have ever seen, regular season or playoffs.

by gauchodirk on Oct 19, 2006 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ha Ha Rolen
I still don't know who to root for.

by VS on Oct 19, 2006 9:15 PM CDT reply actions  

Do you think..
..he's still thinking about his HR turned double play?
Soriano
Theriot
DLee
Ramirez
CLee
Jones
Barrett
Izturis

by Will23 on Oct 19, 2006 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

root for the
mets. even though they ruined 1969, they still rank below the cardinals on the hate list.

speaking of the hate list. the worst point in my cubs fan life in terms of rooting for other teams to fail was last year when the white sox had already clinched, and i had to root for roy oswalt and the astros to take out the cardinals for the nl pennant. vomit.

by tomas21 on Oct 19, 2006 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

that
i agree with. i guess its more rooting against the cardinals than rooting for the mets. but i agree, go detroit, get your riot gear ready.

by tomas21 on Oct 19, 2006 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

One of the better things about the Sox series
was that TV ratings in Houston (football country) were higher than in Chicago...

That didn't last long as I read something recently that said the Sox games had slightly higher ratings than the Cubs in 2006?  If that's true, that has to be a big decline for the Cubs.  That's serious, that costs you ad. money...Maybe this is one of the major factors in McPhail's demise?

by DudeVf1 on Oct 20, 2006 12:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

that sucked
the was a big jam suppan just escaped.

by tomas21 on Oct 19, 2006 9:24 PM CDT reply actions  

not sure
he didn't beat that throw.

by tomas21 on Oct 19, 2006 9:31 PM CDT reply actions  

very close

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Oct 19, 2006 9:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Have a look at...
... the New York-area weather radar.

If this game goes into extra innings, it's going to be raining moderately hard -- and not stop for hours.

Prediction: they'll play through anything short of a typhoon.

by Al Yellon on Oct 19, 2006 9:35 PM CDT reply actions  

If there's
a typhoon in New York, I think we have bigger things to worry about than rain delays.
"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 19, 2006 9:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

I was thinking about that
I would imagine that they would delay it for as long as possible (if it was raining so hard they couldn't play without it being a travesty), and then they would have to suspend it at some point and finish it tomorrow if they couldn't finish it.  Does MLB still have a curfew like the AL used to?

by gauchodirk on Oct 19, 2006 9:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

No, they don't...
... and I suspect all curfews are waived for postseason games, unless, as you say, the weather makes things totally unplayable. I cannot imagine they would want to suspend the game unless there was absolutely no other choice.

by Al Yellon on Oct 19, 2006 9:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Only on BCB ..
I've just spent 20 minutes trying to find a Mets site with some insight on the weather situation, and none of them have it covered at all!

by 08Cubs on Oct 19, 2006 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

I didn't know
that there were enough Mets fans who knew how to read.

by gauchodirk on Oct 19, 2006 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

My Search
Didn't seem to turn up any evidence to the contrary.

by 08Cubs on Oct 19, 2006 9:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

What
happens if they can't break the tie? They go on inning after inning without end and completely exhaust both teams of players? Isn't there some obscure rule that if no one wins this game that the pennant goes to the team with the worst record in the NL?

by kessinger on Oct 19, 2006 9:40 PM CDT reply actions  

LOL!
Hey, why not?

Eventually, someone would win. But it'd be fun watching them both play to past the point of exhaustion.

by Al Yellon on Oct 19, 2006 9:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

No doubt
That's part of the appeal of the Stanley Cup Playoffs: those overtime games are easily the most dramatic and riveting sporting events possible, and the longer the game goes, the better it gets.

by gauchodirk on Oct 19, 2006 9:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Soccer's Golden Goal
The golden goal -- sudden death -- was used in the 1998 and 2002 World Cups, and it provided some of the most exciting soccer games I've ever seen.  It's a shame that it has been all but eliminated.
AC036198

by gjdow on Oct 19, 2006 9:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Actually
I should say that golden goal overtimes are probably the most intense sporting events I've watched.
AC036198

by gjdow on Oct 19, 2006 10:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sure
think about it. A rematch of the 1945 Series. Then in Game 7 with the Series tied at 3 games a piece and the Cubs up two runs in the bottom of the ninth. The Tigers have men on first and third and someone (not naming any names) comes up for the Tigers and bunts the ball back to the pitcher for the final out. It would be poetic.

by kessinger on Oct 19, 2006 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

If they really did play
until like 3AM, non-stop without a rain delay, would you stay up?

I'm surprised to see you up this late.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 19, 2006 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

would I stay up?
of course! I wouldn't even need stimulants

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Oct 19, 2006 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Tonight...
... I might stay up, because that would be an all-time classic of a game.

Plus, I don't work on Fridays.

The longest LCS game was this one on October 15, 1986, between the Astros... and Mets. It was one of the greatest postseason games ever. Read the PBP of the 16th inning. After the Mets took a 3-run lead in the top of the inning, Houston came back with two, and had the tying run in scoring position.

Kevin Bass missed hitting a walk-off HR by a few feet, and then struck out, giving the Mets the NL pennant.

by Al Yellon on Oct 19, 2006 9:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

The longest LCS game ever was
Game 5 of the 2004 ALCS.
"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 19, 2006 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

By time of game, yes.
Game 5 of the 2004 ALCS went 5:49.

But game six of the 1986 NLCS went sixteen innings. That 2004 game was 14 innings. I should have been more specific.

by Al Yellon on Oct 19, 2006 10:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

hopefully
bud selig is not in the audience tonight, or we could see detroit playing the mets AND the cardinals after the first ever NLCS game 7 tie.

by tomas21 on Oct 19, 2006 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm calling it...
don't know why... but Mets go up by three in this inning.
Seriously, I don't need to win in '07 or '08. I can take two more 90-loss seasons if we have some talent to build with. Let's start over and do this right.

by tyger1147 on Oct 19, 2006 9:57 PM CDT reply actions  

I hate the Cardinals...
they even make me look bad on a Cubs blog!

Bastards!!!

Seriously, I don't need to win in '07 or '08. I can take two more 90-loss seasons if we have some talent to build with. Let's start over and do this right.

by tyger1147 on Oct 19, 2006 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

suppan
is making himself some money tonight.

by tomas21 on Oct 19, 2006 9:58 PM CDT reply actions  

I hate Suppan
n/t
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Oct 19, 2006 9:58 PM CDT reply actions  

I hate Suppan
n/t
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Oct 19, 2006 9:58 PM CDT reply actions  

Well, I hate him a lot
So it was worth saying twice.
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Oct 19, 2006 9:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

would you hate him
if he became a cub? it's possible. a silly question I know. anybody who done good with our cubs would be loved

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Oct 19, 2006 10:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

I dunno
He's awfully tainted.
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Oct 19, 2006 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

I have to admit
i'm impressed with Suppan, even though he's been impressive all post-season. I figured the mets offense would eventually get to him. maybe this is the inning.

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Oct 19, 2006 9:59 PM CDT reply actions  

H20
It's starting to look pretty wet out there ....

by 08Cubs on Oct 19, 2006 10:03 PM CDT reply actions  

for 15 million
beltran should steal a base.

by tomas21 on Oct 19, 2006 10:03 PM CDT reply actions  

For $15 mil
you think he wouldn't be a dumbass and clog the bases.
"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 19, 2006 10:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

bad call
wright checked his swing on 2-0

by tomas21 on Oct 19, 2006 10:10 PM CDT reply actions  

cardinals
didn't look like a tema that just punched their ticket for the world series.

by tomas21 on Oct 19, 2006 10:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Too bad Isringhausen is hurt
Otherwise the Mets would really have a chance.

by gauchodirk on Oct 19, 2006 10:22 PM CDT reply actions  

Yes
But this does appear to be the Cardinal bullpen we know and love.

by 08Cubs on Oct 19, 2006 10:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

molina?
you gotta be kiddin me

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Oct 19, 2006 10:26 PM CDT reply actions  

I don't care
what any thespian sez. this is great theatre

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Oct 19, 2006 10:31 PM CDT reply actions  

Watering Hole Alert
Water buffalos and monkeys.
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Oct 19, 2006 10:31 PM CDT reply actions  

That's funny
And I don't even know what it means.

by gauchodirk on Oct 19, 2006 10:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Call it!
What will Lo Duca do?
Soriano
Theriot
DLee
Ramirez
CLee
Jones
Barrett
Izturis

by Will23 on Oct 19, 2006 10:38 PM CDT reply actions  

imagine if it were us...
...I'm sure I'd be dead already.
PINIELLA!

by theprognosticator on Oct 19, 2006 10:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Bases chucked...Beltran up...
Doesn't get any better than this.

I say Wainwright induces a flyout though.

PINIELLA!

by theprognosticator on Oct 19, 2006 10:42 PM CDT reply actions  

2 run double is my guess
Soriano
Theriot
DLee
Ramirez
CLee
Jones
Barrett
Izturis

by Will23 on Oct 19, 2006 10:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

nah, Cards win this...trust me...
God hates the Cubs remember?
PINIELLA!

by theprognosticator on Oct 19, 2006 10:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Got em looking..
Soriano
Theriot
DLee
Ramirez
CLee
Jones
Barrett
Izturis

by Will23 on Oct 19, 2006 10:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

damn
you can't go down looking in that situation

by Strickland843 on Oct 19, 2006 10:44 PM CDT reply actions  

Wow...
Beltran didn't swing the bat.

There's your 100M at work New York. Paralyzed.

PINIELLA!

by theprognosticator on Oct 19, 2006 10:44 PM CDT reply actions  

Party
like it's 1968.

Tim McCarver is having a bad case of dejĂĄ vu right now

Piniella is the sympton, not the disease

by Josh Timmers on Oct 19, 2006 10:45 PM CDT reply actions  

i fucking hate timmy mccarver
i hope the tigers sweep that fucking team

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Oct 19, 2006 10:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

okay...off the TV goes...
good night cruel world...
PINIELLA!

by theprognosticator on Oct 19, 2006 10:45 PM CDT reply actions  

I cannot...
...feel sorry for Mets fans though. Screw 'em.

by gauchodirk on Oct 19, 2006 10:45 PM CDT reply actions  

The '87 Twins...
...won the WS with 87 wins, so you're absolutely right.

by gauchodirk on Oct 19, 2006 10:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

'73 Mets
They were 82-79.
AC036198

by gjdow on Oct 19, 2006 10:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm mad.
I don't even know why.  I shouldn't care, but I do.  I'm not sure who I hate more anymore the Cardinals or White Sox.  Last year the White Sox make it to the World Series and win.  This year the Cards make it.  The year before that the Cardinals make it, but they got swept.

I will definitely be cheering for Leyland's team now.  I hate the Cardinals.  I hope they get crushed or lose in a very depressing way.  Honestly, right now I feel like they are going to win the whole thing, but that's just my gut feeling.

Logically, they can't win because they suck(like the whole NL) and the Tigers have two lefties whom the Cardinals struggle with.  I hope Neifi hits a another grand slam into the pole at the new Busch Stadium.  Go Neifi!

Maybe I'm just jealous.

Cubbie Blue will always sPaRkLe in my eyes, but please stop losing. PLEASE!

by sparkles721 on Oct 19, 2006 11:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

I really hate the Cardinals...
Tigers better eat them alive.

I want 4 games. I want a sweep.

PINIELLA!

by theprognosticator on Oct 19, 2006 10:47 PM CDT reply actions  

Wow
Two all-Central World Series in a row - maybe our division is better than we thought.

by gauchodirk on Oct 19, 2006 10:48 PM CDT reply actions  

Someone
please explain to me why Randolph doesn't bunt with runners on 1st and 2nd with nobody out in the bottom of the 9th

by jazzman56 on Oct 19, 2006 10:49 PM CDT reply actions  

That's the million dollar question....
that he now has the fun task of trying to explain to that warm and fuzzy New York media.  Good!!  Dumbass.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Oct 19, 2006 10:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Except for rare occasions
bunting almost always decreases your chances of scoring.

by VS on Oct 19, 2006 10:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Okay.
That's why it's been done in baseball over and over again, year after year, since Abner Doubleday, right?  Teams do it year in and year out to throw games because they just don't want to score, is that right?  Thanks for setting me straight with that brilliant baseball knowledge.  
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Oct 19, 2006 11:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Considering
there's no evidence Abner Doubleday ever even played baseball, I wouldn't go disparaging other people's knowledge of baseball.

We have Doubleday's life papers in the archives.  Not once does he even mention baseball.

Piniella is the sympton, not the disease

by Josh Timmers on Oct 19, 2006 11:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Alexander Cartwright, then.
Happy now?
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Oct 19, 2006 11:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Don't bother arguing.
Don't waste your time.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Oct 19, 2006 11:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

You are
now go away.

by jazzman56 on Oct 19, 2006 11:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

OKAY
you got me.  

If a bunt is properly executed there, then the Cardinals most likely walk the next batter to load the bases with one out. Then, the line drive to center probably scores a man from third, and if there is a throw to the plate, the man on second likely goes to third.

So, now you've got a one run game with a man on third with two outs in a one run game, and Wainwirght likely doesn't throw curveball after curveball because if one gets away, the tying run will score from third.

So, Beltran gets fastballs and has a much better chance to get a hit.  The whole compexion of the inning changes...all to the advantage of the Mets.

Now PLEASE go away.

by jazzman56 on Oct 19, 2006 11:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh, I missed something
with a properly executed bunt, and an intentional walk, everything moves up a batter and Delgado gets to hit in the inning.

There are so many ways that a bunt would have improved the Mets chances in that spot that it is hard to list them all.

by jazzman56 on Oct 19, 2006 11:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Please stop, you're only embarassing yourself
And no, I wont go away.

Bunting most of the time is just a waste of an out.  People believe it's useful, just like people believe batting a speedy, Pierre-type first is smart.  Research has proven otherwise.

There is plenty of material on the subject available online.  I suggest you look some of it up.

by VS on Oct 19, 2006 11:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

And I suggest
you please honor my request that you not respond to my posts.  You are clogging up the page when I am interested in reading what people who actually know something about baseball have to say about this.

by jazzman56 on Oct 19, 2006 11:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

Unbelievable
Seriously, do some research before you act all high and mighty and pretend like you actually have a clue.

And this is a free message board.  If I want to respond to your posts, I'll respond to your posts.

by VS on Oct 19, 2006 11:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Fine
then everyone can see what a moron you are.  I was just trying to save you from embarrassing yourself.

by jazzman56 on Oct 19, 2006 11:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

With each post you make
you further embarass yourself.

If you want to go on believing that bunts are  useful when it has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that except in certain circumstances they are just wasted outs, go right ahead.

by VS on Oct 19, 2006 11:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

The only thing
that has been proven beyond a doubt is that you know nothing about baseball.

If it makes you feel better to continue to demonstrate this, be my guest.  I obviously can't stop you (although I tried).

by jazzman56 on Oct 19, 2006 11:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're probably right
I shouldn't keep replying to your posts because you're obviously too ignorant, stubborn, and incapable of changing your views on baseball.

The only thing I can keep saying is that you actually take a few minutes to look this up.  I bet you'll be surprised at what you find.  Until then, it would probably be for the best if you don't question the baseball knowledge of others.

by VS on Oct 19, 2006 11:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Its unfortunate
that you ruin your otherwise intelligent posts with such disdain toward your fellow man.  I have always wanted to ask about your user name and have thought it might be interesting to discuss some jazz with an intelligent person.  I can't find a single person my age who even knows who Horace Mantooth is.
It's cool we like the same junk and stuff- Phillip J. Fry

by smwojoz on Oct 20, 2006 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hey Styles,
Careful, he might claim your/lame, childish and dense as he did me awhile ago.  I chuckle at someone who needs to put someone down just to feel superior.  Pity the poor man.
It's cool we like the same junk and stuff- Phillip J. Fry

by smwojoz on Oct 20, 2006 12:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

he attempted
to denounce maddog, I don't know why.
Soarin higher than a 1st base down the right field line....

by Faith plus 1 on Oct 20, 2006 12:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

For the record
I did not denounce.  I find I agree with Maddog more often than not.

But, I did chastise him a bit for a drive by post, which he agreed he would've been better served to have not made.

If your going to rip me, please at least be accurate.

by jazzman56 on Oct 20, 2006 1:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

uh-huh
But, I did chastise him a bit

i'll give you the same treatment you give everyone else, you're not worth the energy.

Soarin higher than a 1st base down the right field line....

by Faith plus 1 on Oct 20, 2006 1:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah
Congratulations for your outstanding contribution to this blog.  Don't let the fact that you are totally off base deter you.

by jazzman56 on Oct 20, 2006 1:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

please go away
n/t
Soarin higher than a 1st base down the right field line....

by Faith plus 1 on Oct 20, 2006 1:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Look
I didn't mean to come off as dismissive of you, and for that, I apologize. But now that other posters have gotten involved in this thread, I feel I probably should respond in more detail, although I was hoping to avoid that.

I was merely trying to initiate what I thought could be a potentially interesting discussion of the strategy employed in the bottom of the 9th inning of tonight's 7th game of the NLCS.

Let me first point out to you that I am not only aware of the arguments against bunting, I have studied the expected runs table and can hold a fairly intelligent conversation as to the value and/or weaknesses of those studies and the reasons why they do not definitively settle the issue.  I am not ignorant of them at all, and they most assuredly are not without controversy.  I just wasn't in the mood to get into a discussion of them tonight.  I just wanted to talk about the game, which, after all is what this diary was about.

In short, the utility of the sacrifice bunt is affected by a myriad of factors that are not and cannot be accounted for in the ERTs.

It is generally realized, even by Bill James and the folks at Baseball Prospectus, that the ERTs only serve to analyze baseball strategies in general and not specific situations.

Two of the most important factors are the fact that the tables lump both successful and non-successful sacrifices into one category and the fact that it does not take into account the variable quality of the hitters who come to bat following the sacrifice attempt.  They use league averages that do not break down individual components that will effect whether a run gets scored or not.

All of these things were factors in the 9th inning situation last night.  1) The Mets had sitting on the bench someone who may be the best bunter in the NL.  The probability that he would successfully execute the sacrifice is extremely high.  2)  If the sacrifice had been called, then the lead off hitter, followed by the 2, 3 & 4 hitters were coming up, all of which increases the chances scoring over league averages.

Another issue with the ERTs are that they only account for the probability that a run will be scored.  In the game last night, the Mets needed to score two runs in the 9th or the game would be over.  An ERT that showed the probability of scoring two runs with men on first and second with no outs versus second and third with one out would have to be used, but it would still lack the data from this specific scenario.

So, while I would be delighted to discuss the strategy of the sacrifice bunt in general with you sometime, it was this specific circumstance that I was interested in this night.

But, I would caution you that unlike some, I do not accept sabremetric conclusions without question.  Unfortunately, I have a statistical background in addition to my interest in sports and I can see the holes in some of these conclusions pretty quickly.

In the meantime, if you are interested in learning more about the deficiences of the ERTs that formed the basis of the anti-sacrifice bunt articles on Baseball Prospectus, try this:
 http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2006/07/empirical_analy_1.php

by jazzman56 on Oct 20, 2006 3:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

I misconstrued
I didn't mean to come off as dismissive of you,

I'm sorry, I did misconstrue didn't I?

Soarin higher than a 1st base down the right field line....

by Faith plus 1 on Oct 20, 2006 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

Uh
I didn't address this to you.

by jazzman56 on Oct 20, 2006 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

It matters how?
It's in a public forum and there is nothing to stop me from responding.
Soarin higher than a 1st base down the right field line....

by Faith plus 1 on Oct 20, 2006 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sure
Whatever.

Feel better now?

by jazzman56 on Oct 20, 2006 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

You never cease
to amaze...
Soarin higher than a 1st base down the right field line....

by Faith plus 1 on Oct 20, 2006 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Neither do I...

piniella

PINIELLA!

by theprognosticator on Oct 21, 2006 3:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

regardless of whether or not they should have...
...sacrificed, I wouldn't have bat the gimpy Cliff Floyd.

It was incredibly fortunate for the Mets he didn't hit the ball at all and gave them a shot to win it with arguably their best hitter up there.

The thing that still boggles my mind is that Beltran didn't swing. Considering that that curveball had been Wainwright's out pitch that entire inning, if I'm Beltran and down 0-2, I'm looking curveball and fouling off fastballs.

But then again, this is easy to say. I wasn't the one up there with the entire bleeping season on the line and the fate of my team's fortunes resting on my shoulders.

Just how in the hell did Aaron Heilman give up a two run homer to a .216 hitter?

PINIELLA!

by theprognosticator on Oct 19, 2006 11:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hitting Floyd
is clearly why they eschewed the bunt, so Willie R. was wrong twice at the same time.

I can't wait to see how the NY press BBQ's him over this.

by jazzman56 on Oct 19, 2006 11:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

He had a little Ozzie in him...
not the goofball on the Sox--the Wizzard!

by DudeVf1 on Oct 19, 2006 11:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Because he needed 2 runs to tie.
I wouldn't argue with him if he did it down one run or if the game were tied.  But down 2 he did the right thing.

After reading the series of posts in response to your question, it appears that your response or belief that the bunt helps answers your own question about why so many teams do this, i.e., they do it because they are incorrect and they don't understand or refuse to understand why they may be incorrect.

Notwithstanding my previous comment, if you want to take long shot gambles in game 7, then go ahead and bunt in that situation.  Or Dusty would say we were aggressive...On a wet field, maybe the pitcher throws the ball away, it happens but these are the least likely outcomes.

by DudeVf1 on Oct 19, 2006 11:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

And the
fact that the Mets needed two runs is why I think you should bunt in that situation.  You are facing a guy who has been lights out all post season.  If you bunt the guys over over, you can tie the game with a single, and with your best hitters coming up, maybe they can bloop one or hit a bleeder somewhere.

If you don't bunt them over, then it takes two singles, or an extra base hit, and the way Wainwright has been throwing, that is an awful lot to ask.  As it turned out, even one hit was too much to ask.

by jazzman56 on Oct 20, 2006 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

Okay. But that's the worse strategy...
by giving up an out and then waiting for a hit only after the out is given up.

A player could also get a hit instead of sacrificing, then you at least have the bases loaded and 0 outs.

Giving up that out hurts your chances of scoring runs more than moving an extra base helps. It could help score one run and so if that's all you needed in a tie or to tie I'd totally agree with the manager if he bunted.

There are still many people in baseball who refuse to believe that giving up outs in these situations hurts your chance to score more than the move up a base helps.  I can only speculate as to why they believe this, but it's possible that they only remember the times that it "works".  It also gives managers something to do to break up a slumping team, etc...On the other hand there have been many guys in baseball who understood the error in giving away outs through sacrifice, long before Moneyball, Branch Rickey and Earl Weaver come to mind, but there's many more.

Why do teams use a closer for only one inning or less most of the time now?  Why do we use 5 man rotations?  For the most part, a large segment of the sport has been resistant to analysis.  

Kudos to Randolph for not hurting his team's chances in that situation.

by DudeVf1 on Oct 20, 2006 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Don't agree
at all, for the reasons stated above.

Even if one of his studs gets a hit, he still is one run short and loses the game.  The odds that two hits will occur in that situation before Wainwright gets the third out are miniscule the way he has been throwing.  You bunt the guys over and hope somebody bloops one and that gives you the best chance to win.  The real issue here is not about "giving up an out" it is about the odds of getting two hits before three outs are recorded vs one hit before two outs are recorded.  The second one is much more likely.

Before last night, Wainwright has been close to unhittable.  And while people are crticizing Beltran for taking strike three, if he had swung at that curveball, he wouldn't have been able to hit it anwyay.  Not even with a boat oar.

by jazzman56 on Oct 20, 2006 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

So they should have done nothing, just given up.
They had the bases loaded and their hitter was struck out, so what that happens.  He was actually trying to get a hit.  A far better use of an AB than giving away an out.  The odds are far worse against you in your argument, I guess you don't want to investigate that.  Thus, you have answered your own previous question about why so many managers continue to bunt when it hurts the team.  They refuse to even look at the simplest of arguments that prove it's a bad idea.  Being down 2 runs is tough.  The last thing you do when down 2 runs is start bunting for sacrifices because you need as many ABs as possible to get hits.  Maybe Beltran should have bunted for a hit in that situation, that would have fooled the Cards.  As it is, he was frozen by a cruveball, that's part of the game.

by DudeVf1 on Oct 21, 2006 2:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

ESPN
is asking Dusty how the Tigers should prepare for the Cards. Now that's comedy.

by gauchodirk on Oct 19, 2006 10:50 PM CDT reply actions  

Have the game moved
to Wrigley.
"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 19, 2006 11:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

You must be aggressive, dude!
Run on the bases until you get thrown out, swing at anything, no one ever got nothin' from a walk, it's just another way to lull you to sleep on the bench.  Make sure you make excuses about everyone and everything being against you.  Claim that Detroit is a racist city with racist fans.  Play your weakest hitting lineup possible and don't dare bring in a starter in for relief duty because these 7 games are not important, it's the next 7 years, plus you never do that during the season so why would you do it in the playoffs, it's against the rules I think.  Then if you have a near catastrophe about to unfold, make sure you hide in the dugout, let the players figure it out themselves they get paid damn well to be men in those situations.  When all else fails, hide behind your children at the press conferences.  I'm outta here dudes, skoal!  

by DudeVf1 on Oct 19, 2006 11:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Just got back from puking
after hearing Joe Buck say, with a degree of (extra?) smugness, "Cardinals win the pennant."

Life is not good at the moment... go Tigers!

by jcg996 on Oct 19, 2006 10:50 PM CDT reply actions  

God, I hate the Cardinals!!!
I hate them!  I hate them!  I hate them!!
This sucks!!  
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Oct 19, 2006 10:55 PM CDT reply actions  

ESPN just mentioned
The Cards and Tigers had the two worst Post AS records among teams that reached the World Series.  They were both under .500

by VS on Oct 19, 2006 10:56 PM CDT reply actions  

chris myers
is such a tool.  he needs to be soaked by some champagne

by Strickland843 on Oct 19, 2006 10:57 PM CDT reply actions  

well worst WS part 2
Worst World Series from Cubs fan standpoint at least.  2005 South Siders vs. Hated Astros

2006 Hated Cardinals vs. the team that when we were 5 outs from a world series they lost 119 games who was closer to playing in a world series ... and probably winning answer not US.

Nothing like raising expectations more!!!

NO MORE TRADING THE FUTURE ITS ALL WE GOT!!!!

by KyCubsFan on Oct 19, 2006 11:00 PM CDT reply actions  

Here's a question
Name the only team that swept the LCS who were then themselves swept in the World Series.

by jazzman56 on Oct 19, 2006 11:09 PM CDT reply actions  

Ding!
We have a winner.  

Not that I'm suggesting that will happen, but I'm betting this will be a more competitive series than most are predicting.

by jazzman56 on Oct 19, 2006 11:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree
Though I'd like to see the Tigers win, let's not plan the Detroit parade route yet.

by gauchodirk on Oct 19, 2006 11:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Another Trivia Question.....
Who managed the team that swept the A's in the 1990 World Series?
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Oct 19, 2006 11:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Can't remember his name
Some guy who took over for Dusty Baker somewhere.
Piniella is the sympton, not the disease

by Josh Timmers on Oct 19, 2006 11:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Who managed those A's?
and the '04 Cardinals?

snicker...

"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" -Homer J. Simpson

by Whitebacon on Oct 20, 2006 3:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

Regarding the Neyer quote in Al's post:
"That's why they play the game."

Great game, heck of a performance by Wainwright in the 9th.  Incredible catch by chavez on Rolen.

Unlike many Cubs fans, I actually like the Cards and their organization.  I lived in Central Illinois for a while and it's hard to argue, well it's impossible to argue about the beter organization.

Current GM and ownership has made the Cards competitive and 2 WS appearances.

I enjoyed disliking the Cards more when Harry was still calling the Cubs games.

It's also better for the Cubs to have their bitter rival keep the pressure on to win...The Sox and Cards making the series, there's just no excuse for the Cubs...It confirms for me that the Cubs can turn it around if they make good decisions and get lucky.  Despite all of my cynical and critical posts here, I love the Cubs and I truly hope that they will win it all soon.  It can be done.

Let's go Cubs, make 2007 our year!

by DudeVf1 on Oct 19, 2006 11:30 PM CDT reply actions  

hell...
...it appears these days 83 wins can get you to the WS. We may not be that far away after all.
PINIELLA!

by theprognosticator on Oct 19, 2006 11:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Which is of course
assuming that the Cards and Astros make no moves to better their teams in the offseason.

by Peoria Matt on Oct 20, 2006 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

They won't...
They'll sit there and play Pinochle all offseason.
PINIELLA!

by theprognosticator on Oct 21, 2006 3:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

I just want...
to see my new sig.

Yes, I am narcissistic.

Theriot Murton Wells D-Lee Ramirez Jones Molina Izturis Spend the rest on pitching!!!!

by tyger1147 on Oct 20, 2006 12:30 AM CDT reply actions  

I hate the Cardinals!!!
Go Tigers!!!!
Go Hawkeyes...Beat Michigan!!!

by sue369 on Oct 20, 2006 7:28 AM CDT reply actions  

This just maginifies
the difference between the Cubs and the Cards.  

Unbelievable

by Peoria Matt on Oct 20, 2006 7:36 AM CDT reply actions  

SUE, I'M WITH YA!
The Cardinals are the NED FLANDERS of BASEBALL to ME!

YUCH!

Beat Iowa in all sports. Go Illini!

by TheEman on Oct 20, 2006 9:58 AM CDT reply actions  

Life is just
one crushing defeat after another until you wish Flanders was dead.

Someone has that in their sig here...

Soarin higher than a 1st base down the right field line....

by Faith plus 1 on Oct 20, 2006 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

Flanders?
In the World Diddly Series?

by jazzman56 on Oct 20, 2006 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Bleed Cubbie Blue, the Chicago Cubs blog for the SB Nation, created on February 9, 2005 by Al Yellon

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
Jazz Up Your Recs!
Img_0001_small
Value of Various Plate Approaches
284_small
Cubs' Fantasy Camp 2012 as seen by a Player's Wife
P7200073_small
Randy Hundley Fantasy Camp 2012

Recent FanPosts

Small
Arguably OT: Aussie Baseball Finals Go To Decisive Game Three
Small
New Cubs draft strategy player development
Jeffnewwork_small
What I Expect From The Cubs In 2012
Wrigley_scoreboard_small
What To Do With Alfonso Soriano
Small
A quick update from the 2012 concessions orientation
Caray_small
Is there any FA left worth going after?
Marvin_the_martian_small
Thoughts On Gerardo Concepcion: Trust The Scouts
Star_small
What if Hendry were still our GM instead of TheoJed?

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recommended FanShots

Nice article about Ernie Banks
Yankees Hire Jim Hendry
Dale Sveum Meets Early Arrivals At Camp Buss

Recent FanShots

The Rickettsification of Wrigleyville has begun!
Marlins' Cespedes Offer 6 years, under $40M (MLBTR Link)
BCB Fantasy Baseball 2012
Former Cubs Blogger Interviewed on The Score
Cubs vs. Rangers In Las Vegas Tickets On Sale Monday 2/13
Hoyer driving to Spring Training with his dog
Hoyer-Soriano likely a Cub to start 2012, Garza extension talk a possibility
Law's Top 100 prospects
Ranking the Farm Systems
WGN Releases Season Schedule

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

Featured Poll

Poll
How many games will the Cubs win in 2012?

  296 votes | Results

It Is Only...

It Is Only...

Cubs By The Numbers

Cubs By The Numbers is a history of the ballclub by uniform number, but the biographies help trace the history of our beloved team in a new way. For everyone who's a Cubs fan, anyone who ever wore the uniform is like family. Cubs By The Numbers reintroduces readers to some of their long-lost ancestors, even ones they think they already know.

Click here to order your copy, available now!

Recent Stories in Ticket Exchanges


Managing Editor

Alyellontoppscard_small Al Yellon

Front Page Contributors

Primary_fc_small Josh Timmers

Marvin_the_martian_small Shawn Domagal-Goldman

Other Contributors

Dsc_0139_small David Sameshima

Toonmike_small Mike Bojanowski