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The Top 100 Cubs Of All Time - #75 Rogers Hornsby

Rogers Hornsby (on the left) pictured with Pirates Hall of Famer Paul Waner, at Wrigley Field in 1929

Profile by BCB reader MadHatterBlues

As most of you know, during the offseason a famous Rogers Hornsby quote adorns the top right corner of this space. While we can admire his desire to play baseball year-round, there are many things about his career that were less than admirable.

There are a number of different ways to look at the career of Rogers Hornsby. Some ways will have you hating his guts not only for his years at the Cardinals, but for the kind of man he was (and seemingly enjoyed being). Other kinds of analysis may have you thinking that he was quite simply the very best (righty) hitter ever to play the game of Baseball. He ranks 2nd All-time (to Ty Cobb) in lifetime batting average (.358), 8th in OBP (.424) and 12th in SLG (.577). Of course, as far as the top 100 Cubs goes, we can focus down on what really matters....What did he do for us?

Rogers came to the Cubs before the 1929 season from the Boston Braves, and the Cubs sent a small army in the other direction to compensate - Socks Seibold, Percy Jones, Lou Legett, Freddie Maguire, Bruce Cunningham, and $200,000 cash. Thankfully for the Cubs, his debut season proved his worth. A hitting line of .380/.445/.679 to go along with 39 HR and 149 RBI helped Hornsby to the National League MVP, and helped the Cubs to their first pennant since 1918. On May 30th the following year Hornsby, already limping after off-season surgery on his heel, breaks an ankle sliding into 3B in the first game of a doubleheader in St. Louis. The Cubs win both games, 2-0 and 9-3, to move into 3rd place, but Hornsby ends up missing most of the season. Manager Joe McCarthy (claiming a lack of support from team owner William Wrigley) resigns as team manager, and a month later is installed as the new Yankee manager. A frustrated observer, Hornsby was installed as the team manager.

He played/managed his way to a .331 average in 1931, but the Cubs managed only a 3rd place finish, and although the Cubs were successful in '32, the personalities were not. On August 2nd, with the team 5 games behind the Pirates in the NL standings, the Cubs lost 4-2 with an 8th inning collapse in Brooklyn. Following the loss, Cubs president Veeck and Hornsby argue on the train to Philadelphia about the strategy. Further "discussion" in Veeck's hotel room ended with Rogers Hornsby being fired from his position as manager. A contributing factor in The Rajah's departure is his gambling, and the debts he has run up borrowing money from his own Cubs' players. Veeck works out a repayment schedule with the money to be subtracted from what the Cubs owe Hornsby on his contract. The Cubs made the Series that year in spite of Hornsby, but still felt a strong enough dislike for the man to deny him any share of the Series bounty.

You'll notice I haven't spent long going into the many reasons Hornsby was unpopular despite the fact Rogers is disliked enough to feature on most all-time hated Baseball lists. The fact that Hornsby wasn't the first, nor the last asshole in the history of Baseball. Its unfortunate that the game seems to have more than its fair share of foul characters over the years, but the game does not help in refining or controlling any negative urges. Simply put, Baseball is not a gentleman's game. Players curse, spit, argue, fight, throw at batters, take steroids, doctor baseballs, kick dirt and are obscenely paid to do so. Standard procedure is to claim not only for the decisions they know they should have, but also the decisions they think they can get away with. The game is not built around honesty/integrity. You do whatever you have to, to win and if you happen to spike your opponent in the passing so much the better. So knowing all this, why should it matter if a player acts like an ass while playing big league ball?

As far as hitting goes, Hornsby must have been a joy to behold. His brief Cubs playing career still eclipses many decades compiled by lesser men. Few will associate the career of Hornsby with the Cubs, he will remain a legend for other teams, but we should revel in the fact that a hitter of his class once graced the batters box at Wrigley Field.

Hornsby briefly worked as a broadcaster for the Cubs in 1949, when no fewer than three stations broadcast Cub games (this was before the concept of "broadcast rights" was invented). He was universally reviled and went back to coaching and managing, managing the Browns again briefly in 1952 and the Reds in 1952 and 1953.

After his playing career, Hornsby returned to managing -- but with a terrible team, the St. Louis Browns. In three full seasons and parts of two others, they never managed a winning percentage higher than .441 under Hornsby. He was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 1942, and like many great players, he was unable to accept the fact as a manager that not everyone had the talent that he had. He developed special disdain for young players, particularly when the Mets hired him as a major league scout; according to Hornsby's Wikipedia entry:

Hornsby was reviewing a group of major league players with his customary none-too-complimentary remarks. Among the group were Chicago Cubs' third baseman Ron Santo and outfielder Billy Williams. Hornsby had just gotten through dimissing one player with the comment, "You'd better go back to shining shoes because you can't hit," when Santo whispered to Williams, "If he says that to me, I'm going to cry." When Hornsby came to Santo, he said, "You can hit in the big leagues right now," then turned to Williams and said, "So can you."

Rogers Hornsby's career stats at baseball-reference.com

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Hornsby Just might have
made Santo's and Williams careers with that comment.  Nothing like impressing, what seems, an unimpressable person.  
Man Law: Don't fruit the beer!!!

by Scott G F on Dec 6, 2006 8:43 AM CST   0 recs

Always crack up at this:
"Rogers Hornsby was my manager, and he called me a talking pile of pigshit!!!!! And that was when my parents drove all the way down from Michigan to see me play the game!!!! And did I cry?"
WOODY!!!!

by Sarah Hope on Dec 6, 2006 8:48 AM CST   0 recs

And ya know why???
Because there's no crying in baseball.  There's no crying in baseball!!
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Dec 6, 2006 8:17 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Hornsby at 75?!
The guy is on the short list of all time greats, and you put him at 75 on the CUBS list?! C'mon, Al.

by CubFaninNY on Dec 6, 2006 8:54 AM CST   0 recs

That's right.
Reason: Hornsby played only four seasons with the Cubs, only two of which were "full" seasons -- really, only one complete year, 1929. His best years were behind him by the time the Cubs got him.

This list is intended to look at players' CUB careers, not their accomplishments elsewhere. I'd imagine he would rank quite high on, say, an all-time Cardinals list.

by Al on Dec 6, 2006 8:57 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I respectively disagree
Rogers Hornsby is probably the Greatest Middle-infielder ever, and with no disrespect to Ryno, the Greatest second baseman to ever play for the Cubs.  He played most of 4 seasons starting at the peak of his career for the Cubs.  He's better than #75.

by Ihatethecards on Dec 6, 2006 9:26 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

What?
Go to baseball-reference.com and check the stats.  He starting playing for the Cubs at 33 not at the start of his peak.  His three .400 seasons were well in the past.  Of the 4 seasons he played for Chicago, only 1 was as a full-time starter.  In one of the seasons, he got 58 AB's and another he got 104 AB's.

I do agree that he is the best 2nd baseman of all time.  He is a top 5 Cardinal and maybe #2 behind Musial but as a Cub he's properly ranked here.  In fact, I would rank him at least one spot lower because I think Riggs Stephenson is too low.  

by rlpete on Dec 6, 2006 10:16 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Thank you.
I realize I probably have Stephenson ranked too low.

About the rest of the list, I did have it made up ahead of time. However, I will say that based on some of the comments made here about players already posted, I have tweaked it a little bit.

by Al on Dec 6, 2006 10:19 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

oh well
it's your site, man.

by CubFaninNY on Dec 6, 2006 9:06 AM CST   0 recs

What is it...
.. about what I said that you didn't understand?

Hornsby was, essentially, a Cardinal Hall of Famer who played briefly for the Cubs and helped lead them to one pennant.

That's worth a mention, but not higher than this.

by Al on Dec 6, 2006 9:07 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

yeah, yeah, I heard you
Do you have this list worked out all the way till number one already? I still don't think he gets dropped down to number 75 on the Cubs list. But you're older, and smarter than me, so I defer to you and your vast knowledge.

by CubFaninNY on Dec 6, 2006 9:34 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Al
I'll agree with your ranking. His best years were not with the Cubs.

To add to your story about Hornsby and his encounter with Santo and Williams:

Santo says there were about a dozen players Hornsby spoke to in that gathering. He dismissed all but Williams and Santo as being unworthy of the big leagues. And he turned out to be right. Of the dozen, only Williams and Santo ever played in MLB.

Or something to that effect. I may be wrong on the number of players that were there.

by danimal15 on Dec 6, 2006 9:44 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I buy that argument, Al
My only dispute would be if we see any more "one season wonders" higher up on the list

by TC Cubby on Dec 6, 2006 11:20 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I agree
one season wonders should be downplayed but great one season wonders that lead to playoff appearances are worth some consideration.  Go back to the Hank Borowy story.  He is a half season wonder that led to the '45 World Series.  If the Cubs didn't make the Series that year, he would likely not have appeared anywhere on the list.  

by rlpete on Dec 6, 2006 11:25 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I'll have a look...
... at my list, but I don't think there will be any more "one season wonders".

Hornsby qualifies because he had that one great season and helped the Cubs to a pennant. You're right about Borowy -- the '45 pennant is the reason he makes the list.

by Al on Dec 6, 2006 11:38 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Gotta admit
I never knew he played for the Cubs until this morning.
Man Law: Don't fruit the beer!!!

by Scott G F on Dec 6, 2006 9:20 AM CST   0 recs

The Rajah!!
cubs kept him in org a long time after his playing days...didn't know he was such a bad guy either guess need to read up on history that's what's great about this series!!

by writerinwrigley on Dec 6, 2006 9:25 AM CST   0 recs

I believe the quote about Santo and Williams
was in Santo's autobiography.
The call of the Cub fan, c. 1893: "one long, ravaged, derisive yell...a cyclonic whoop!"

by zambranofan on Dec 6, 2006 9:44 AM CST   0 recs

Recall
That his 1929 season - as amazing as stats like .380, 39 homers, 149 RBI may seem - occurred in an era like today's, when offense was dominant. That's not to say he wasn't great that year, but so were a lot of other hitters. The Cubs' team average in 1929 was .303, and that wasn't even good enough to rank the team first in that category in the NL. The Phillies led the league with a .309, and no team hit worse than .280.

by danimal15 on Dec 6, 2006 9:54 AM CST   0 recs

Rajah's 1922-1925 seasons comprise the greatest...
..stretch of years in MLB history. What would he get paid for that now? 4/$125?
El Jefe

by Reverend Jim Ignatowski on Dec 6, 2006 10:35 AM CST   0 recs

Upon further review, make that 1921-1925 as ...
...the greatest 5 year stretch in history. I'm not sure exactly when the dead ball era ended, but the '21 season was probably still in it.

Al, which one of these years is the best? I'm not sure as they're all stunning.

Make that contract 5/$160.

El Jefe

by Reverend Jim Ignatowski on Dec 6, 2006 10:41 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I think...
... I'd vote for his 1922 season as the best. .401/.459/.722 with 42 HR and 152 RBI. The 42 HR was the single-season record for a 2B until Davey Johnson broke it.

His .424/.507/.696 season in 1924 is pretty fantastic too, but the power numbers are a bit lower, so I'd pick 1922 as his best.

by Al on Dec 6, 2006 10:43 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

dead ball
Hard to define when that era ended. I'd say when Babe Ruth hit 54 homers in 1920 and 59 homers in 1921, it was pretty much over. I think they put a livelier ball into the game somewhere around then to get people excited about baseball after the Black Sox scandal.

by danimal15 on Dec 6, 2006 12:27 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

his 42 HRs
Al, I just noticed a mistake at wikipedia when looking up davey johnson's stats. it says he TIED Hornsby's record by a second baseman with 43. wikipedia shortchanged johnson!

do you ever notify them?

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Dec 8, 2006 11:13 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I haven't...
... but you certainly could, if you want.

by Al on Dec 9, 2006 4:58 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I'll do it

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Dec 9, 2006 1:57 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Surprised he is even this high.
Hornsby was a great player - no doubt. He is one of the greatest players ever to play - for the Cardinals. He only played 317 games for the Cubs. Granted he had a great line in 1929 and 1931 (combined 256 games) but he was nothing special in 1930 and 1932 (combined 61 games).
Football and basketball are just things to do between baseball seasons.

by MetsSuck on Dec 6, 2006 11:04 AM CST   0 recs

Anyone notice the hats?
Both black?  Hornsby's seems to have no logo on it.  Wagner's seems to have the Pittsburgh "P" logo on it, but stitched in the same dark color as the hat

by TC Cubby on Dec 6, 2006 11:22 AM CST   0 recs

Didn't there
used to be a link to some cubs uniform guru site on the BCB homepage?  I can't find it amidst the clutter

by TC Cubby on Dec 6, 2006 11:25 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Apologies for the clutter.
It's under "Baseball Uniforms Searchable Database" on the left sidebar.

by Al on Dec 6, 2006 11:37 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Thanks
from that site, his hat should have a red "C" on it.  Maybe he's just wearing something else, or, more likely, the hat is in the sun and the logo doesn't come through on the black and white photo

by TC Cubby on Dec 6, 2006 11:57 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I think it's the latter...
... the "P" on Waner's cap, though visible, is barely so.

by Al on Dec 6, 2006 12:14 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I always thought
it was weird that his first name was plural, ending with an "s" - "Rogers", and not singular - "Roger".  

Must be a 19th century naming convention or something.

by JFCubFan on Dec 6, 2006 11:38 AM CST   0 recs

I have a feeling...
... it might have been a family name, maiden name of his mother, something like that.

by Al on Dec 6, 2006 11:40 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Spot on Al,....
...."Rogers Hornsby was born in the small town of Winters, Texas on April 27, 1896. His unusual first name originated from his mother's maiden name."

http://www.rogershornsby.com/bio.htm

El Jefe

by Reverend Jim Ignatowski on Dec 6, 2006 2:02 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Interesting Hall of Fame trivia...
...Even though Hall of Fame rules state that a player must be retired for five years before he can be inducted, Rogers Hornsby received 105 votes during the inaugural year of 1936-one year BEFORE he retired.
El Jefe

by Reverend Jim Ignatowski on Dec 6, 2006 2:17 PM CST   0 recs

I think...
those rules were not in effect at that time.

by Al on Dec 6, 2006 2:36 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I think...
those rules were not in effect at that time.

by Al on Dec 6, 2006 2:36 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

If we're looking at one year
wonders who helped the Cubs make the postseason can we expect to see Jerome Walton, Dwight Smith, Lloyd McClendon, Les Lancaster or Mike Bielecki?

by TR on Dec 6, 2006 4:47 PM CST   0 recs

Well, come on.
Hornsby's a Hall of Famer, and his "one year wonder" for the Cubs was, I think you'll agree, a bit better than any of the players you mentioned.

by Al on Dec 6, 2006 8:28 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Deadball era
The American league average slugging percentage jumped from .359 in 1919 to .387 in 1920 (an 8%) jump.  It jumped 5% more in 1921.  

Besides using the better ball, baseball also started throwing out dirty balls more in 1921 after Ray Chapman's on field death.  

by goody14 on Dec 6, 2006 7:42 PM CST   0 recs

How unpopular was Hornsby?
When asked to comment on his second baseman's MVP season of 1929, all manager Joe McCarthy could muster was that he "did his share".  Now that's an unpopular guy.  
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Dec 6, 2006 8:22 PM CST   0 recs

A nit
but I think a significant one.  Pick a tense and stay with it.   These were players in Cubs history; use the past tense.
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

by scareduck on Dec 6, 2006 8:42 PM CST   0 recs

Specifically...
... where are you seeing this?

by Al on Dec 6, 2006 9:10 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

#75...Hornsby should be top 50!
#75...yes, his best days were probably wearing a certain jersey from Missouri, but his days as a Cub were mounmental...he led the Cubbies on that 1929 team. Sure, he only tied Hack Wilson in homers...but that's a feat in itself.

Yes, the lost to the Connie Mack Philadelphia squad, but he still won MVP that year...that should be worth a little bit more than #75.

by cubby23 on Dec 6, 2006 10:47 PM CST   0 recs

One year, that's all.
See the rest of the comments for further discussion of this ranking. Perhaps it could have been a little higher, but not much. Essentially, he was a Hall of Fame Cardinal who spent a brief time as a Cub.

by Al on Dec 7, 2006 8:39 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Hornsby staring at the window for Spring...
He must have put something down on the over/under for sunrise each day.

by DudeVf1 on Dec 7, 2006 9:49 AM CST   0 recs

I stand by my comment...he deserves to be higher..
Yes, Hornsby's tenure with the Cubs was brief...but so were other influential Cubs
(e.g. Rick Wilkins, Steve Buechele, George Bell, Jerome Walton, etc...) Laughs...I put George Bell on there because he was part of quite possibly the most lopsided Cub trade success in history. I throw Buechele out there because we got him for Danny "frickin'" Jackson...a lefty, that was virtually untradeable if such a thing exists. Wilkins...hit 30 homers one year...not much else. Walton won ROTY, and then disappeared.

My point is Cub history is sprinkled with players of this caliber...and they deserve mention, possibly even top 100 all-time Cub worthyiness.

Hornsby spent 4 seasons as a Cub player (1 MVP), and in three seasons as a player/manager never had a record below or near .500, all were above .500, including a penant in 1932. If Don Zimmer and Jim Frey or even Lee Elia show up on this list higher...I'm filing protest...laughs...or recount!!! Roger was a Cardinal legend, but he definitely got results, and in the post WWII era, few Cub managers can put their record against his.

by cubby23 on Dec 8, 2006 12:31 AM CST   0 recs

FWIW...
... this list won't include any managers (except, in the case of Hornsby, and Frank Chance, some player-managers).

by Al on Dec 8, 2006 8:12 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

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