For all Neifi Apologists...

by ARMissel on Apr 12, 2006 11:12 AM CDT Comment 16 comments

Look, I like Neifi Perez. I really do. Good fielder, can occasionally surprise with the bat, seems like a nice guy. He plays cards with Derrek Lee before every game, and if that helps put Derrek in the mood to hit, he's worth every penny of his contract right there. But some people seem to think that, while certainly not a good hitter, he is also not a terrible hitter. For these (delusional) people, I invite you to look at this article from The Hardball Times. Apparently Neifi is, by some measures, the worst active hitter in the major leagues, and he has a chance to become the worst ever.

Here's to hoping he doesn't.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Worst Hitter Ever?

I am someone who thinks that Neffi is not an asset worth having on your team. His offense is not great, and his defense, while good, is something that lots of other SS can offer. That being said, I just don't accept the premise that he's the "worst hitter ever" or even in the team picture. Heck, I am not even convinced that he is the worst hitter among the Cub players on the team this year, and he certainly wasn't the worst hitter on the Cubs last season... several other players had far less of an idea what to do with their bats....

The problem is that the metric that is being used to claim that he is the worst hitter ever is a "counting" stat (at least in part). The worst hitters ever would not show up on this stat becuase they would never have a chance to play enough games to qualify. Much in the way that the pitcher with the most career loses or the batter with the most career strikeouts (or the batter with the most career outs) is not the worst player of all time, becuase the player has to be good enough to get those chances. (The all time "out" maker is Pete Rose, also the career hit leader, the all time king of the K's is Hall of Famer Reggie Jackson,the all time career pitching loser is Cy Young, and the all time giver up of walks is Nolan Ryan)

Is Neffi an offensive powerhouse? No. But to call him the "worst hitter ever" is not only a disservice to Mr. Perez, it is also twisting stats in such a way as to place statistical analysis in a bad light.

by Frustrated Fan on Apr 12, 2006 11:31 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I Totally Agree...

...that Neifi is not the "worst hitter ever." You're right that the worst hitter ever wouldn't have enough ABs to show up on a list compiled using this metric. Two things, though:

My point was just to point out to Neifi supporters/apologists just how bad his hitting is.
There's something terrible about a guy just good enough to get a lot of ABs but not good enough to do anything with them. I realize that in Neifi's case, his ABs have sometimes come as the result of injury, but still. In football (and probably in other sports), there's that old cliche "he's just good enough to get you beat." That's Neifi.

by ARMissel on Apr 12, 2006 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

RCAA numbers

It is a very obscure stat that should not be taken as the sole judgement of a hitter. The stat itself is very biased toward power hitters.
It seems that the only player to be judged by that stat is Neifi. It is not widely used in judgement of hitters other than by stat geeks who seem to only use selective metrics to fit their thinking. Now if someone were to use all the different metrics out there and could show he's one of the worst, please be my guest.

All this number shows is he has a bad RCAA number, nothing more nothing less.

by cubswin on Apr 12, 2006 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

In fact...

... note that one of the players on that list was Don Kessinger.

Kessinger wasn't a very good hitter, but he had some decent years. Yes, he had no power. But he was a productive player for a decade, and made several All-Star teams.

by Al on Apr 12, 2006 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good point.

There are a million stats out there and not all are meaningful and an awful lot are just plain meaningless.

I am still perplexed on what Neifi has done wrong in his Cub career to instill the hatred he receives on many boards. He has done whatever has been asked including filling in at short for Nomar. Not bad numbers for a backup forced to play fulltime. His numbers as a Cub do not merit this.

by cubswin on Apr 12, 2006 5:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

when we had patterson

a lot of people maintained in spite of all evidence that he was really talented and would be really good someday, etc etc, and that he wasn't that bad, did-you-see-he-went-3-for-4, etc etc. -- some people just do this. i think they must believe that denying the problem equates with good citizenry or something.

so i looked around at the worst players of the lively ball era, to try to contextualize patterson, and found he was one of the 14 worst offensive outfielders to accumulate 200 ab since 1921.

one of the other familiar players i ran into in that study of persistent ineptitude was neifi perez.

by gaius marius on Apr 12, 2006 11:32 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

sorry -- 2000 ab

by gaius marius on Apr 12, 2006 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

As I wrote at the end of last season...

... Patterson's 2005 season was the worst for anyone with that many at-bats since 1968.

by Al on Apr 12, 2006 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I consider myself a Neifi supporter

when he is in there for defensive purposes, especially when Maddux pitches.

If you look at that list, you will notice that most of the people on that list were everyday players and were very good defensive players, i.e. Matheny, Guillen, etc.

RCAA, the stat used is dependent on not only being a bad hitter, but you also need plenty of at bats and the only wsy to that as a bad hitter is to be a much better defensive player, in most cases.

"You know what God told the cubs. Don't do anything until I get back!" Pete Rose

by Will71081 on Apr 12, 2006 11:40 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Where are

all these Neifi apologists that you are supposedly writing to? Neifi gets pretty roundly eviscerated around here--even the Neifi! campaign was sarcastic (albeit hopeful).

Anyone speaking well of him is speaking of his glove (which is great) and not his bat.

Classic straw man. You're creating a fictional idiot in the hopes that someone else will think you're smart. You even insult that fictional person by calling them "delusionsal." (Watch a lot of Bill O'Reilly maybe?)

Your rhetoric is not uplifting the level of discussion here.

Baseball can be summed up in one word--you never know--Joaquin Andujar

by Josh77 on Apr 12, 2006 12:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

O'Reilly! hah!...

.....can we send that dumbass to Mars with Edmonds and Morris?!

Please -- that's three people the world could do without.

85% of the world's working and the other 15% come out here (to Wrigley). --Lee Elia

by southerncubbie on Apr 12, 2006 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Read carefully...

I didn't say anyone had praised Neifi's hitting. But there have been some on this board who have, on occasion, failed to acknowledge just how awful it is. This is what I said. Perhaps "apologist" was too strong a word.

I am not trying to make myself look smart; I don't see where you got that from. Making the argument that Neifi is a God-awful hitter is hardly an original one, and does nothing for my intellectual reputation on this board (if such a thing even exists). I found this article today in The Hardball Times and thought I'd share, as it pertained to a Cub who is a favorite topic of discussion here. I hardly think anything I posted called for the sort of dismissive reproach--"your rhetoric is not uplifting the level of discussion here"--you offered back. I'm sorry, JoshinLA--from now on I shall strive to meet your rigorous standards for blog diaries.

And please don't bring Bill O'Reilly into things. If I actually (unironically) watched him, I probably wouldn't be aware that your reference was an insult, and, since I don't watch him, the insult sort of falls flat.

by ARMissel on Apr 12, 2006 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You used

words like "Apologist" and "delusional" and now you got all sarcastic on my ass. That's not the sign of someone trying to bring up an informative article on Neifi--that's the sign of someone trying to tear down someone else. You even address the article to "Neifi Apologists." That's the way to start an argument, not a discussion.

And since you didn't give any examples (because I don't think there are any) of these "Delusional" people, you were making a straw man argument.

The whole tone of your diary was dismissive and angry. You weren't just trying to share an article--in which case you would merely said "here's an article on how bad a hitter Neifi is." Instead, you couched it in the language of an intellectual attack by addressing it to "Neifi Apologists" whom you term as "delusional".

Maybe instead of me needing to "read carefully" you need to "write carefully."

Sorry. But your explanation doesn't cut it--and getting sarcastic on my ass only proves my point.

Baseball can be summed up in one word--you never know--Joaquin Andujar

by Josh77 on Apr 12, 2006 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I give up

Alright, I started the post with "I like Neifi" (totally sincerely) and ended it by expressing a hope that he would not break the dubious record he looks set to break. I used the word delusional to describe anyone who would argue "oh, Neifi's not THAT bad a hitter..." because Neifi IS--and this is fact--THAT bad a hitter. If you don't believe people have made these arguments, please look at, oh, I don't know, half the comments on this diary. I'm sure there are others. Perhaps in your extensive search to ensure that the quality of comments on this blog are "uplifting the level of discussion here," you'll come across some more. I wish you luck.

by ARMissel on Apr 13, 2006 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The point is

Let's not miss the point here. Neifi is not a good hitter. Quite frankly, of all the players in the majors who are "good" enough to accumulate a lot of AB's Neifi quite likely might be the worst. Assuming there are plenty of good fielding, light hitting shortstops in the minors who would work for the league minimum and probably be able to produce at or above Neifi's level, why are we employing him? I'm not saying I want him let go but is it really beneficial to have him around eating up salary space that we could use on someone else? However you frame the argument or however you perceive the intent of the diary isn't the problem. Neifi's hitting is. Is he the worst hitter ever? No. Does he help our offense? Probably not.

by pageian on Apr 12, 2006 3:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I think it's safe to say...

that the vitriol spewed at Neifi would be substantially less if he batted 7th or 8th all of last season. It's been argued that the #2 spot is the most important spot in the order, ("The Book" comes to mind) and the use of your worst hitter in that spot is unforgivable.

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by RobG on Apr 12, 2006 7:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs