Bleed Cubbie Blue: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
New Blog: RSL Soapbox for Real Salt Lake Fans!

The Cubs And Barry Bonds - A Date With Destiny?

I watched, as I'm sure many of you did, a fair portion of last night's 9-5 Phillies win over the Giants, a game where Barry Bonds moved to within one of second place on the HR list, behind Babe Ruth, by hitting his 713th HR.

Well. First, I was again struck by all the fawning over Bonds by the ESPN broadcast crew, without even a mention of the controversy surrounding him. This isn't something competent broadcasters do. Yes, I know ESPN is heavily invested in Bonds with his reality show -- something I refuse to watch, incidentally -- but the skew in favor of Bonds, when clearly most all baseball fans (excepting Giants fans, of course) are against him, is nothing short of disgusting.

Bonds, for his part, put yet another notch in his "I'm The Biggest Jerk Of All-Time" trophy case when he refused to sign the #713 ball for the fan who caught it:

Bonds said no when he was asked at his news conference if he would sign the ball if a fan wanted an autograph. Moments later, when an official asked if there were any more questions, [Carlos] Oliveras [the fan who caught the ball] piped up:

"Will you sign my ball?"

Bonds smirked and said nothing.

After his news conference, Bonds shook Oliveras' hand and took a picture with him.

"I'm happy because I got a picture and he shook my hand," he said.

Happy? Maybe. But read on:

There was one signature needed though. Oliveras had to sign a waiver for Bonds' reality show.

You have got to be kidding me. Sign a waiver? I'd have refused until Bonds signed the ball.

All of this relates to the Cubs, of course, because they'll be visiting This-Year's-Phone-Company-Name Ballpark Tuesday through Thursday of this week. Too bad Greg Maddux will miss the series (he's throwing tonight vs. the Padres), because I know he'd relish the competition with Bonds. Maddux' and Bonds' careers are almost identical in length, and Bonds is 34-for-120 lifetime (.283) with 8 HR vs. Greg. In any case, Bonds will face Rich Hill, Carlos Zambrano and Sean Marshall when the Cubs come to San Francisco. (He may not face Marshall, as the Thursday game is a day game after a night game, and he's taken some days like that for rest.) Bonds and Z have a history; Bonds didn't like it when Z pumped his fist after catching a Bonds line drive back to him to quelch a Giants rally back in 2003.

Seriously, I wish Bonds would just retire. I'm sick of hearing about him moving up the HR list. I've written before about how he was a Hall of Famer before he began doing steroids -- and there's little doubt in my mind that he did them -- and it's truly unfortunate that he wasn't satisfied with that, that he felt he wasn't getting his "due" unless he held records that would give him the public recognition he craved.

Well, he's got the single season record now, and will soon be second on the all-time list. But at what cost?

The Giants will be playing the Astros tonight, making up a game that was rained out last month. Astros manager Phil Garner says they're not going to pitch to him. (Link opens an ESPN video page, an interview with Garner.)

I say, good for them. As I wrote back in March, I'd walk him every time he comes to the plate, unless the game is specifically on the line.

And I've thought of another way for fans to register their displeasure with him. He's heard nothing but boos on the road -- I'm sure you heard them last night. But I'll bet he gets energized from those, and they show recognition. Here's a better idea: when Bonds comes to the plate, stand up in your seat, turn your back on him, and remain completely silent. Can you imagine the reaction if an entire stadium went silent on a Bonds at-bat?

It'd send a message, that's for sure.

I know I've opened the Bonds can of worms again, but we'll be discussing this quite a bit while the Cubs play the Giants, so why not start now?

0 recs  |  Comment 251 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Perfect
What bothers me almost as much is the fact that we have become so obsessed with numbers. Babe Ruth's family said it best when they were at Wrigley the other day - they don't care who breaks Babe's record how many times. It doesn't diminish Babe's accomplishments at all, and for Joe Morgan, et al to sit there and demand that attention must be paid is nothing short of ludicrous.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 9:28 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

That's just it
it's Joe Morgan, the same guy that would talk about a marshamallow if it were in the dugout.
...the artist formerly priorpwnz.

by Faith plus 1 on May 8, 2006 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

dusty
I am sure dusty will make sure we will pitch to his buddy Bonds.  I would pick Z as a good candidate to give it up.

by mike bornemann on May 8, 2006 9:31 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The pitcher who
gives up the next two HRs to Bonds should be black-balled from baseball.  Walk him every time - game on the line or not.  That goes for Cubs pitchers as well.

I love the idea of fans standing and turning their backs to the field.  I wish ESPN would make a similar statement and not show every at bat.  I do my part and turn the channel.

by BringBackRyno on May 8, 2006 9:31 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Aim for his head
And fire away.
AC036198 Fire Dusty. Please.

by gjdow on May 8, 2006 9:39 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Wouldn't it be great...
...to see Z plunk Bonds with a 96 mph fastball on the first pitch he sees.

by ontheuptick on May 8, 2006 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

too bad...
bonds wears more armor than US marines

by luv4cubs2 on May 8, 2006 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not to get political but...
... that's because the administration doesn't give our Marines adequate body armor. That of course and Bonds looks like Robocop up there.

by KevinFosterFan on May 8, 2006 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

As I've suggested
I think Bonds will play two of three games against the Cubs, coming to bat perhaps six times. I hope his stats during the Cubs series are 0-for-0, 6 HBP. This piece of trash has cheated on pitchers for years. He has inflated his stats at their expense. Why they are not totally outraged is beyond me. I hope someone plunks him in the knee and ends his career.

DmL

by dmlichte on May 8, 2006 9:39 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Probably not outraged
because of the suspicions cast on pitchers for using steroids.

What would a HBP on Bonds' knee get you? An ejection?

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes...
I'm not usually vindictive, and I'm the last to call for intentional injury, but I say fire away.  With any luck it will be Zambrano who knocks him down.  Everyone I know (minus one Giants fan who is still in denial) will be cheering for the Cubs this series, let's take them out.

by michigancubbie on May 8, 2006 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What a stupid statement!
Do you honestly think that no pitchers were using steroids?

by jolietconvict on May 8, 2006 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pardon me
but where did I say or even insinuate that no pitchers used steroids? I certainly didn't say that Bonds is the only batter to use steroids, either. However it appears that his use of steroids and human growth hormones in a ridiculously high regimine, far beyond what anyone else has. His detailed use of them was far beyond what his trainer recommended. Bonds appears to have broken the unwritten rules of steroid use.

So sure, if you want to hit Giambi, do so. Bonds has admitted to steroid use. Further he's a tremendous pud. So for the tremendous number of pitchers who have not used steroids, I'd like to know why they are not outraged at Bond's behavoir.

Here is one pitcher  who I've gained tremendous respect for has he has the balls to speak up and not fear what the player's union has to say.

DmL

by dmlichte on May 8, 2006 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You have...
...no idea how much other players used steroids and how many used them.  What about all the steroid using pitchers that padded their numbers against non-steroid using batters?  Where's your outrage?  The only thing you know is that Bonds is a complete jerk.  So just say you want someone to end his career because he's a jerk.  That's what you're saying.  Well hell let's throw at Jeff Kent's head; by all accounts he's at the top of the asshole scale as well.

by jolietconvict on May 8, 2006 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No
it's because he admitted under oath that he used them. As far as I'm concerned, Bonds, Giambi, and Shefffield are in the same category with Sosa and McGwire. I'm outraged at all of them.

Quit making this about Bonds being a jerk. It's about him being a cheater. If you don't care that athletes cheat and use roids, go watch pro-wrestling or something. But quit demonizing those of us who want baseball to remain clean. If you just want to see homeruns, your no better than the "sweet sassy molassy" sportscenter jerks and their MLB counterparts that let all this happen in the first place.

"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's...
...not a matter of me not caring that Bonds has cheated.  It's also not a matter of me wanting to see anything but homeruns.  Homeruns are exciting but so is a guy from first scoring on a double to the gap.

It's the disproportinate sense of outrage WRT his transgressions that I take issue with.  I have news for you, every sporting event you've ever watched in your life someone has probably been  cheating.  Does that mean we shouldn't try to stop it?  No, but the venom directed at Bonds has little to do with his cheating.  If it did, we'd see the same outrage thrown at the rest of the players that have been outed.  I'm also sick of all the talking-heads droning on and on about Bonds when it's obvious that the NFL has a much bigger steroids problem then baseball.

by jolietconvict on May 8, 2006 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not just cheating
But breaking records while doing it.

Bonds' "I'm the best" attitude drove him to steroids.  He deserves to be mocked, spat upon, and hated.  Oh, yes, and he also deserves to have his head used for target practice.

AC036198 Fire Dusty. Please.

by gjdow on May 8, 2006 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let me guess...
...you'd probably classify yourself as a Christian?  You sir a real class act.

by jolietconvict on May 8, 2006 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks
If Bonds quit baseball like he should, I wouldn't feel nearly so vindictive, but to see him out there hitting home runs at this point is an insult.
AC036198 Fire Dusty. Please.

by gjdow on May 8, 2006 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's...
...a child's game.  Relax.

by jolietconvict on May 8, 2006 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly
It's a child's game, and he and others have done great ruin to what should be an enjoyable game, by deciding that winning was more important than playing fairly.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

People...
...have been cheating since the first day baseball has been played.  Get over it.  Do some research on baseball in the 1850s and 1860s.  Amateur teams were  paying players to play for them.  Gaylord Perry cheated his way to the Hall of Fame, but I don't hear anyone calling for his head.

by jolietconvict on May 8, 2006 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know that
Doesn't make it right. You're attempting to explain away one person's behavior with the "everybody does it" clause. I feel sorry for you if you're resigned to "enjoying" a game where everyone cheats, and you're just fine with that. Really, I do.

I know exactly what went on as far as skirting the rules throughout baseball history - please don't talk down to me as if I've never cracked a baseball book in my life.

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who...
...said I'm resigned to anything?  You're the one hyperventilating as if Barry Bonds were the first person to ever cheat in baseball.  My point was that guys are cheating everyday in baseball.  I'm not naive enough to believe that one man's actions are going to bring down the sport of baseball.  Nor am I going to let it ruin my enjoyment of the "game" of baseball.  I think Barry Bonds is a major scumbag. However I think his possible tax-evasion, marital infidelity, and poor treatment of other human beings are far away worse than what he did to get better at baseball.

by jolietconvict on May 8, 2006 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with you
that those issues are worse than any cheating he could ever do in baseball. It just makes me sick to see people jumping up to defend him.

And I never said or implied that Bonds was the first person to cheat at baseball. I'm saying (again!) that that doesn't make it any more right.  

I'm also not naive enough to believe that Bonds alone can bring down baseball. But again, again, again, that doesn't make it right.

Broken record here.

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

PS
Nobody said I supported Gaylord Perry, either. I don't agree with his HOF election. Now, if you want to get started on every single admitted cheater to ever play the game and debate their worthiness in the pantheon of baseball history, we can sit here for a week. But right now, we're talking about one Barry Bonds. You can sidestep the issue all you like by pointing to other players, or you can explain how you can claim to love baseball but still have the ability to look away when someone blatantly breaks the rules.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What...
...exactly do you want done (other than his physical harm, apparently)?  He didn't break the rules of baseball.  Steroids were illegal, but there was no sanction against their use in baseball.

by jolietconvict on May 8, 2006 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nope
I never said that I wanted physical harm done to him; you're putting words in my mouth. Scroll around, I am not among those who have called for his head on a platter.

I'd like a thorough investigation on current and former MLB players. I don't think an asterisk will do anything, we can't suspend him because there is no smoking gun.

In regards to your comment about no sanctions, you might be interested to read this, FWIW - http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2217361

"In 1991, then-Commissioner Fay Vincent effectively put steroids on baseball's list of banned substances in a memo sent to all MLB teams. Baseball could not test for steroids, the memo said, but should a player be caught with steroids, he would be sent for treatment and subject to penalties. This memo was never publicized and, seemingly, was largely ignored by both management and the players' union. Commissioner Bud Selig reissued the same memo in 1997, with minor changes but with the same lack of conviction."

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My apologies...
...it was another poster that called for him to have his "head used for target practice".

As you quote above, until 2003 steroids were treated as cocaine, marijuana, etc.  Bonds has not tested positive for anything under the rules of baseball.

Further more pursuant to the other posters' calls for teams not to pitch to him that is the height of hypocrisy.  Not pitching to him, unless it is a strategic decision, undermines the integrity of the game.  You are now basing your strategy on making political statements instead of trying to win the game.

by jolietconvict on May 8, 2006 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I understand that
You just have to play the game, and I can see your point on not IBBing for politics. I know that Bonds hasn't tested positive for anything in baseball, but the shadow of "suspicion" is exponentially greater than your garden variety player, which should be enough to warrant some sort of investigation.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What?
...you'd probably classify yourself as a Christian?  You sir a real class act.

What does that even mean?

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It means...
...that the people that advocate the most violence in our society usually claim that they are also fine upstanding Christians.  Anyone who would say, "He deserves to be mocked, spat upon, and hated.  Oh, yes, and he also deserves to have his head used for target practice." sounds like a low-life to me.

by jolietconvict on May 8, 2006 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why would you automatically assume
that comment came from a Christian? I thought we were here to talk about baseball, not to heap plainly false garbage upon someone's religion. Grow up.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Whoop! Whoop!
Whoop! Political posting! Whoop! Whoop! Whoop!
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Um, hey now.
Let's maybe cool it on generalizing on people of a certain faith.

I only want to have to ask that once.

she

by Sarah Hope on May 8, 2006 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Amen
No pun intended.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes indeed...
... please keep your comments baseball-related.

I have said that political discussion is off-limits here, and I think we ought to do the same for religion.

Thank you.

by Al on May 8, 2006 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ha!
funnnnneeeeeeee!!!
she

by Sarah Hope on May 8, 2006 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My last comment on this
Read my comment.  I did no generalizing.  I didn't say "All Christians advocate violence".  I said that most people who advocate violence in our society claim to be Christians.  I myself was raised Catholic and I'm tired of seeing what's done in the name of Christ.

by jolietconvict on May 8, 2006 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm done with this topic
and am moving back to baseball. I'd just like it if we could keep the religious comments, regardless of their intentions, to a zero. Thank you.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, we all are.
We're also sick of blanket statements that, regardless of what you'd like to say, was a definitive statement directed toward defining people of a certain faith.
she

by Sarah Hope on May 8, 2006 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

he has a point
but thats for another day on another blog ...

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No. No. No.
No more. Stop. Please. That's not for any thread on this blog.

Thank you.

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

thats what i said another day and ANOTHER BLOG
I won't elaborate. If you wish for me to elaborate. I would be glad to continue the said discussion via email but it isn't going to happen here

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, that's exactly what I said
I don't want you to elaborate, nor do I want to hear anything more from you or anyone else on the subject. Your "he has a point" comment was overly inflammatory and contradictory to the nature of the post. No more. Please.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

sorry for offending you
but it was not inflammatory. just acknowledging what I saw. anyway

Cubs game in t minus... err about 6 hrs.. this isn't good..

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Apology accepted
I just don't want to talk about religion on this board. Thanks.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You might....
...try rereading my statement, because you obviously didn't read it.  At no time did I ever attribute a viewpoint to everyone of a certain faith.

by jolietconvict on May 8, 2006 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dude.
I'm sick of talking about this.

you said "that the people that advocate the most violence in our society usually claim that they are also fine upstanding Christians."

There's no gray area there. You said what you said. Be man enough to stand behind it.  It's in print for pete's sake.

she

by Sarah Hope on May 8, 2006 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly
Where did I say "All Christians advocate violence in our society"?  You might want to head down to the local community college and take a logic course.

by jolietconvict on May 8, 2006 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Apparently,
Logic and generalize are words you had trouble with in school, weren't they.

Why don't you spend your time by re-reading my statement and see where i ONCE accused of saying "All Christians advocate violence in our society".  

What I said is that you are generalizing and to stop.  But I also asked you to quit trying to defend your ignorant statement, but it seems you don't respond well to direction very well.

Why don't you read over my posts, look up the word "generalize", and quit making this page into a "10 things I hate about jolietconvict" thread.

she

by Sarah Hope on May 8, 2006 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

10 things I hate about you..
was a great flic.. if only because Julia Stiles is amazingly good looking .. and her sister Larisa Oleynik is pretty good looking too.  And that Heath Ledger.. what can you say about Heath Ledger.

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Umm...
I wish I could quit you?
she

by Sarah Hope on May 8, 2006 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

heh amongst others...
Hello Katarina.  Make anybody cry today?

Sadly, no.  But it's only 4:30

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am way too
in love with Julia Stiles. I've seen every crappy movie she's ever been in. And she's done some crappy movies, believe you me.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh yes.
The Prince and Me??

Atrocious.

Did you know there's a sequel??

Sad for you, though.  Julia isn't in the second awful movie. :(

she

by Sarah Hope on May 8, 2006 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Boo
I suffered through her, Ethan Hawke and Bill Murray in Hamlet. Hamlet! Did you see that one??

I'm a biiiig Shakespeare fan, but...this was just horrible.

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ooh, no.
I'm glad I missed that.  Wasn't she in the remake of Othello too?  Wow.
she

by Sarah Hope on May 8, 2006 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

1996 Hamlet
was decent. I liked whomever it was who played Polonius.

A decent flick all around though.

...the artist formerly priorpwnz.

by Faith plus 1 on May 8, 2006 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because...
...you didn't just accuse me of generalizing.  You accused me of generalizing about Christians, which I did not do.  You said:
We're also sick of blanket statements that, regardless of what you'd like to say, was a definitive statement directed toward defining people of a certain faith.

It was directed at people that advocate violence and their hypocrisy not people of a certain faith.  So please stand by your ignorant statement.  It's in print.

by jolietconvict on May 8, 2006 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey JC
will you drop this.. or must you have the last word ? .. I thought we diverged from this off-shoot of the conversation hours ago

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess
your community college debate classes really paid off, huh?

I don't know what your problem is or what your mommy did to you that has you regressing to a 5-year-old right now, but seriously.  Your statement was phrased in a way that gave the wrong impression.  Why do we know it wasn't the impression you wanted to give?

BECAUSE YOU'VE TOLD US 18 MILLION TIMES.

Give it a rest.  Move on with your life.  Go spread the good news and tell those bastards that they can't spread violence and debauchery in the name of God Almighty.  Death to the crusaders! Whatever!!!!

she

by Sarah Hope on May 8, 2006 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why I won't drop it
I didn't drop it because you kept insisting that I was generalizing about those of a certain faith.  I wasn't and furthermore it's a practice that I find abhorrent.

by jolietconvict on May 8, 2006 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You shouldn't
mock somebody's religion.
One day, the dream will come true.

by brianp88 on May 8, 2006 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

again...
... I've never said that there are not pitchers who have no used steroids. If I knew who they were, I'd have outrage towards them. However it is clear that Barry Bonds, in his use of Steroids went far beyond what most others, if not all others did. His regimine was over the top and far beyond what even his trainer suggested.

DmL

by dmlichte on May 8, 2006 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

we all rooted for sosa-
when he wasn't being a tool, because he was on our team, and if you didn't think Sammy was on the juice- you weren't paying attention. I know it's not quite the same, because SS was pretty friendly, and BB is a total bastard, (the ball signing thing being just the latest example); but i think its a bit hypocritical to bash Barry quite so much. (but it's just weird how ESPN never mentioned the steroids thing)

i'm not a big fan of Bonds, but that ball he hit last night was crushed, and i think its good for sports to have a dominating a-hole to root against. (i.e.  Yankees, Lakers, Labron, Clemens etc.)

That's where they got that Picasso.

by WrigleyCat on May 8, 2006 9:44 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I think....
... it's the fact that Bonds is such a jerk that makes the difference in the way he's viewed.

Sure, many suspected Sosa did steroids, same for Mark McGwire -- but since those two had nicer public personas, they got cut more slack for it.

Not saying that's right, only that it's the likely reason.

by Al on May 8, 2006 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

THAT
and Bonds' sense of entitlement to the record. He doesn't exude the same joy and awe that Sammy and McGwire did as they were approaching the single-season records, remember McGwire running over to the Maris family? It was like they could hardly believe it themselves (in hindsight, it was probably the fact that they weren't getting caught that they couldn't believe).

Bonds, on the other hand, has acted like he was entitled to be counted amongst Maris, Ruth, Aaron since he was born. What a tool.

"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Al, are you really that outraged that
the man had to sign a waiver for the reality show.

It's not like Bonds personally requested the waiver.  Demonizing Barry for that is utter silliness.  

It would be nice if once in awhile you showed some balance on the subject of Barry.  A lot of things that you hate him for, are not actually his fault.  I.e. press coverage of the homerun chase, reality show waivers, etc.

He isn't a nice guy, but he has never claimed to be nor has anyone else.  Although he isn't a bad person in the sense that he isn't harming you or me, he's entertaining to watch as long as you don't take it personally.  

Alas he isn't the only cheater in the history of baseball, baseball has a long long history of cheaters, it's part of the game's history.

"You know what God told the cubs. Don't do anything until I get back!" Pete Rose

by Will71081 on May 8, 2006 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Will...
... this is my site and I'm entitled to post my opinions.

I know you've disagreed with me and been a defender of Bonds every single time I've written about him. That, too, is your right.

I'd think that if Bonds had a shred of decency in him, he'd have signed that ball, ESPECIALLY considering the fan had to sign a waiver. A nice person would have done that. Barry Bonds is not a nice person.

And yes, I'd feel a lot less hostile toward him if, as I said, he had a shred of decency in him. Clearly, he doesn't.

He'll be a bitter old man who will have a lot of gaudy-looking stats, and you know what, the writers who have Hall of Fame ballots might just be pissed enough to ALL vote no on him when he is first on the ballot, which will keep him out.

That's what I'd do if I had a ballot.

by Al on May 8, 2006 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't mean for it to sound like I was
trying to tell you what to post.  

Aren't those waivers a necessity for any sort of reality show?  

I think everyone who hates Bonds takes his personality a little to personal.  He is an ass, but it ain't directed at you or me, he's a great player and enjoyable to watch. That's all I care about.

I have a problem with people on this site spewing their anti-Bonds remarks, as if he is the only cheater in baseball history.  And if Bond's is out of the game that will somehow restore integrity to the game.

First off I don't think the game has lost it's integrity, cheating is a part of baseball. End of Story.  

We should get down to the heart of the matter, people just don't like Barry Bonds, if it wasn't steroids people would find another reason to doubt him or hate him.  Steroids are an easy excuse to take out your rage on Bonds.

"You know what God told the cubs. Don't do anything until I get back!" Pete Rose

by Will71081 on May 8, 2006 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not just the steroids
It's his sense of entitlement to breaking records that led him to cheat.

He did it purely for recognition.

The guy doesn't deserve to be in the 700 HR club, he deserves to get thrown at every time he sets foot on a baseball field.

AC036198 Fire Dusty. Please.

by gjdow on May 8, 2006 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Waivers...
... of course they're required, if you want to appear. All I was saying is that Bonds was being a jerk -- and maybe he could have softened the situation by signing.

Frankly, I DON'T enjoy watching Barry Bonds play. He is too tainted.

Cheating is part of the game? That's a sad commentary. Doesn't make it right.

I'll be glad when Barry Bonds is out of baseball. I'd love for today to be his last game.

by Al on May 8, 2006 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

and while...
... you think that we all assert that we feel that Bonds is the only cheater in baseball, it seems to me that you feel that Barry Bonds is the only ass hole in baseball. What about Carl Everett? Kenny Rodgers has proven to be a total jerk. There are plenty of jerks in the game and you make it seem like Bonds is the only one. Why don't people have as big of an issue with these guys as they do with Bonds?

Your "Cheating is part of baseball" and "he's a great player and enjoyable to watch. That's all I care about" is a disturbing notion to me. You've oversimplified all of this tremendously and are just plain wrong.

DmL

by dmlichte on May 8, 2006 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nope
for me, it's pretty much the steroids. That's why 90% of the people who hate him, hate him. I hate him for trying to inject himself into the ranks of Aaron, Ruth, and Maris by means of fraud. And for being indignant about it when people suggest that might be wrong. He's a class-A jerk, but worse, he's a cheater. Yes, cheating has always been a part of baseball. But are you honestly going to argue that Aaron's record was the result of cheating? Or Maris's? If so, I'd love to see your evidence. Unfortunately, we have a lot of evidence against Bonds.

The fact is, there are great records in baseball that were set legitimately, by men with grace and class and integrity, like Aaron and Maris. And, like I've said before, I find it completely disgusting that Bonds has the nerve to cry "racism" over this whole thing. He hasn't encountered anywhere NEAR what Aaron went through when he was chasing the Babe.

"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

CLAP! CLAP! CLAP!
Loud, sustained applause!

by Al on May 8, 2006 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why dont' you hate Aaron?
He passed Babe Ruth with the help of amphetamines that Babe Ruth didn't have access to.  They're a legal performance enhancing drug.

by jolietconvict on May 8, 2006 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How do you know that?
I've never heard that.
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because...
...pretty much every player in the last 50 years has used them and they're an illegal drug that is proven to improve focus and concentration.

by jolietconvict on May 8, 2006 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You didn't answer the question
How do you know that AARON was on them? A general assumption isn't good enough.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh
And a general assumption on Bonds is?

by chasfh on May 9, 2006 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

SAying that
Aaron must have used them because everyone did is a far cry from Bonds' grand jury testimony.
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He doesn't
None of these "Aaron was on greenies" people have yet to show any evidence to back them up. When you ask them for it, they start talking you into circles.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So...
...what makes you think that Aaron is such a paragon of virtue that he didn't take them?

by jolietconvict on May 8, 2006 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nothing
makes me think that, and you're trying to trap me into believing that since there was a possibility he was on amphetamines, we should then vilify him as a drug user.

But it's irresponsible and downright nasty to attack a player for using drugs when you don't have any evidence whatsoever. You're just trying to make yourself feel better for supporting Bonds.

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

First of all...
...I don't "support" Bonds.  I think he's one of the all-time baseball assholes.  His records will always be tainted and rightly so.  The hysteria regarding Bonds is ridiculous.  All this talk of turning their back and not pitching to him is stupid.  Let him hit his homeruns.  There will be no need to put an asterisk next to his numbers.  For now and as long as professional baseball is played people will be aware of Barry Bonds and what he did.  Do people honestly think that in 50 years no one is going to remember anything but the fact that Barry Bonds hit more homeruns than Babe Ruth?

I also don't fool myself into believing that all ballplayers played on a level playing field until the advent of steroids.  The chances are extremely high that Aaron most likely used greenies.  It doesn't lessen my opinion of him.  It's just the way it is.  To some extent Bonds is a victim of circumstance.  Not a victim in that we should feel sorry for him, but in that he had available to him a program of performance-enhancing drugs that is unprecedented in history.  We don't know what ballplayers of the past would have done if presented with this opportunity, but chances are that many would've gone down the same path.  We tend to romanticize the past, when most often it was no better, and probably worse, than the present.

The hysteria around the homerun records is almost always ridiculous.  People were threatening Aaron's life.  People were outraged with Maris when he broke the single-season record.

by jolietconvict on May 8, 2006 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wha?
I must be missing your point. Your first paragraph, I completely agree with. Your second one has merit, but I never said that I assumed everyone was on a level playing field before steroids came into the picture. I know people cheated, and you're right, it may have been more rampant than it is today.

All I'm saying is that leveling a charge of drug use against someone who has never shown evidence as such is very serious and very misleading.

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

First of all...
...it's not serious, because I don't represent any law enforcement agency and I'm not reporting Mr. Aaron to any law enforcement agency.  Nor am I a representative of MLB or the HOF.  I'm posting an opinion on an internet message board.  Does anyone have any sense of perspective?  I believe it's also not misleading because the use of greenies was pervasive and most likely more pervasive than the use of steriods ever was.  I bring it up because people act as though Ruth and Aaron's accomplishments were completely equal and somehow pure.  As I said people are romanticizing the past.

by jolietconvict on May 8, 2006 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But no one said
that we're romanticizing the past. I'm not saying that you, singlehandedly, will destroy Aaron's legacy with one innocent comment. Once again, all I'm saying is that you have no evidence that Aaron (we're talking about Aaron here, not anyone else) used greenies. And to justify Barry's steroid use with a comment like "Why aren't you angry at Aaron - he used greenies!" is false, and is misleading. Take some responsibility, please.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That statement
is up there on the ridiculous-meter along with this guy who wanted to get his hair cut a certain way because, according to him, that's how Paul from the Bible had his hair cut......

Preposterous.

she

by Sarah Hope on May 8, 2006 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let's say..
just for fun, that using steroids isn't "cheating". Yes, let's all suspend our disbelief for a moment.  

Steroids won't give you timing, they can't help you have a good eye,  they can't teach you how to pull the ball, etc.   What they give you is more power.  

What they also give you, are serious health risks.  So I would say, someone that would forsake their own body, their own health, someone with a family that somehow cares for them - if they would put themselves in that kind of danger, just for the chance of being the best* is a 1st class jackass.

Regardless of how you feel about the rightness or wrongness of steroids, the fact remains that they are dangerous. Period.  And that alone should be enough reason to be against them and anyone who would choose to be foolish enough to use them for fleeting fame.

she

by Sarah Hope on May 8, 2006 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Amen
n/t
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

People...
...make stupid decisions all the time that shorten their lives.  How many people do you know that smoke or don't wear a seatbelt or overeat?  People make these decions that put their lives at risk and it doesn't even get them closer to being #1 at anything.  What does that make them.  Pro football players have on average a significantly shorter lifespan than the average American, IIRC.  So are they all "1st class jackasses" for pursuing a career in pro football?  I don't agree with what Barry Bonds did, but people lose all perspective.  At worse he cheated at baseball people.  He did no harm to anyone but himself.

by jolietconvict on May 8, 2006 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

actually
steroids do not GIVE you power either...Steroids.. give you more energy and make it easier to RECOVER from injury on the short term.  

It basically a decision to risk long term permanent damage for a short-term investment.

If I were to take steroids I suddenly would not go Bondsian and be able to hit 70 homeruns.  That is that point that the average Joe on roids couldn't do it.  

However, it is cheating but I am more apt to agree with Joliet just on the point that you cannot stop Bonds from hitting the 2 more homeruns it takes to pass Ruth.. Only Bonds can stop Bonds.. and I do not see that happening.

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It enhances
your natural talent, but that doesn't make it any more right.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So do the Nike contacts
That Brian Roberts used last year en route to a career year.  The contacts enhance the amounts of reds and browns that the eye can see which improves ones ability to see the stiches on the ball.  Roberts said he could see the stitches on the ball out of the pitchers hand?  Why didn't we all denounce Brian Roberts for using the performance enhancing contacts?

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also cheating
but at least they aren't banned by the MLB or OUTLAWED by US FEDERAL LAW AND ALL 50 STATES
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No one
ever came out and said you couldn't wear contacts. You can buy those at Niketown, for Pete's sake.

You start throwing logic like that in there, and pretty soon you're denouncing modern day players for having good doctors and MRI equipment. Or for having a wide choice in bats. Or for wearing shock-absorbent batting gloves. Then, pretty soon, you've lost all love for the game because you see everyone as being a cheater, even the ones who are playing by the rules.

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow..so you are saying
that indicting people without proof of indictment is a negative...

So when does the witchhunt of the steroid issue end though?

Do I believe that Bonds used?

YES!

Do I hate Bonds for it.. NO

Do I care that Bonds hits and passes Ruth.. Nope

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fine
I'm glad for you, that you believe he used but still don't care. Fine. Whatever. And I also agree that "witchhunts" should end - as I've pointed out numerous times on this board, people bring up the "steroid" possibility on some players without any evidence.

But investigating Bonds is NOT a witchhunt. Bonds is a user. Plain and simple.

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeap
He used.. Now what?  

Put an asterisk next to his homerun record? What will that do?

Bitch on blogs that Bonds is a cheater??

Everyone knows that..

Suspend him??

Perhaps but we have no smoking gun yet.. or needle.. if you will..

So what is a rationale thing to do?

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Investigate
Full-scale investigation. Current and former major leaguers. That's my opinion. There's no easy way out of this, but that might be the best way to do it.

I have no patience for asterisks, and I think we've agreed before that that's no solution. You're also right about suspending him - we can't do that quite yet.

I guess for now we're stuck with bitching on blogs!

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Which is like standing in an empty forest
and knocking down a tree.. No one can hear it.

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm ok with that
You've made your point, thank you. But if you disapprove of it...
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I apologize if you feel I am ridiculing you..
but I am still reeling from the devastation caused by Julie telling me Big Bird is a right wing conservative.. that hurt..

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, no
I don't feel that you're ridiculing me. I'm just noticing that you keep saying how worthless it is to talk about these things on blogs, yet you're still checking this site.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Boredom is a funny thing
its good to put out a counter point to the rabble rousing that was occuring.. that was my only rationale.. oh that and I am bored. and none of the other threads have new material.. You cannot talk to yourself you know..

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I may be mistaken
but I believe steroids can either help shorten OR prolong healing time.  Not unlike medicines, steroids can be volatile and unpredictable.  To the best of my knowledge, their effects can vary from person to person.  For instance, Sammy's chin exploded, while Bonds grew tumors in his head.  (Ok, that part i'm joking about).

You are right, only Bonds can stop Bonds.  And stop himself he will.  My point is that he is on a self-destructive path using something that is prohibited in his profession - and for good reason!!! So all cheating aside, what needs to be done to stop him - help him - needs to be done quickly.

she

by Sarah Hope on May 8, 2006 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re
You find it enjoyable to watch an armored-laden asshole play the game, one who cheated because he wasn't getting 100% of the attention he felt entitled to?  That's really telling about what you value.

Baseball will be better for many reasons when BB is no longer part of it, and the sooner, the better.

by Jed Taylor on May 8, 2006 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If this is referring to me..
No I do not enjoy it.. I just do not watch it.

I do not enjoy watching cooking shows either.. Except the one with the hot blonde.  So I decide not to watch them.. Its the same principle.. Maybe baseball is more serious to everyone else.

I love the game .. don't get me wrong.. But i see it as just that.. a game.. and I will root for the Cubs until I die.. But I will never take it so seriously where I have to come on and spew venom toward another player in a blog.  (Except if his name is Dusty Baker or Neifi Perez)

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

argh
Alas he isn't the only cheater in the history of baseball, baseball has a long long history of cheaters, it's part of the game's history.

Are we really going to start this conversation again?

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Al, opened the can of worms,
it generates a lot of discussion.
"You know what God told the cubs. Don't do anything until I get back!" Pete Rose

by Will71081 on May 8, 2006 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

True
But without rehashing this whole thing on my own, though, I can personally say, with a clean conscience, that I don't have a problem with a guy being a butthole if he plays fairly. I'm not looking for an excuse to hate Bonds. I know Kobe is a jerk, but he's insanely talented, so I can enjoy a Lakers game without getting all riled up. Same with TO. Neither of them have taken steroids (that I know of.) So please don't say that we're all just looking for an excuse to hate a mean ol' man, because it's not true.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Except
for that pesky rape thing. . .
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Like I said
he's a jerk, not least for cheating on his wife. But if my memory is correct, he was found innocent of assault.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No
he was never found innocent. The victimm declined to prosecute after reaching an out of court settlement. Dismissing the charges and being found not guilty are two COMPLETELY different things.

I know one of the attorneys involved in that matter, and knowing what physical evidence the prosecution had, I find it VERY hard to believe that he would have been found not guilty. Then again, between OJ getting off and the way we put victims on trial in this country, I can't really blame the victim for not wanting to proceed.

But be very clear, he was NOT found not guilty.

"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My mistake
Bad example :)

You get what I'm trying to say though, right?

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I do
I totally know what you mean.

Sorry--that whole Kobe thing was akin to this Bonds thing for me---made my head explode.

"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No worries
I apologize for not being as well-informed as I should be.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nah
I'm sure you're plenty well-informed.It's just that the common misconception that he was adjudicated innocent makes this vein above my eye start throbbing. . .  

Didn't mean to bite your head off.

;)

"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

you can spin that two ways..
1- He was innocent she was just after the money. Kobe wanted free of the entire situation due to the negative publicity.. he pays her off case is dropped.

2- He was guility but she didn't want it to go to court.. she wanted out of the situation because of all the negative publicity she was receiving. The allegations about her mental health and sexual past were enough to scare anyone out of the lawsuit.

Now I am not a lawyer such as yourself but can the D.A. press charges without the victim's consent? or is that not allowed?

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The victim has no call in the ultimate right
of a DA to charge.  However, if your only witness is that victim and they tell you they dont wish to pursue something and will not testify, your case is shot anyway...
Maddux:"I've got a video game that I can't beat, but tonight, I'm going to beat that game."

by tradeforichiro on May 8, 2006 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

They can still press charges
but it makes the DA's case whole lot harder. Especially in rape cases, the DA normally will not put a victim through trial proceedings if she she objects in any way.
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I see..
you have to wonder what would come of that case.. He has not denied that he slept with her ... and you have to think that she may have perhaps at least initially wanted to.. maybe she decided she didnt want to part of the way in.. or .. not the world will never know..

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Her age
makes me suspect that she was into it initially, then got scared, changed her mind, he got mad, and didn't stop.

But that's just my opinion.

"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

we're in agreeance.
Back to Beisbol.

So Does Maddux get his 6th win tonight and snap the Cubs 6 game losing streak? Notice the repetition of that evil number

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And
at the risk of turning this into a political thread, if most people had any idea what rape victims go through, the evidence gathering, the often insenstive police officers, the cross-examinations. Yuck--how painful.

And I think the idea that women cry rape for some kind of gain is way over-blown. I defended dozens of accused rapists---there was only one victim I didn't think was telling the truth. And remember, I was on the defense. Does it happen, sure. But in far, far fewer numbers than a lot of people think.

Moreover, in this case, there was apparently a lot of blood---like, a LOT of blood, all over the hotel room, the victim, and Kobe. I always found the idea that she did it for the money pretty hard to believe. I consider myself a pretty tough chick, but even I wouldn't have had the guts to go through a rape trial in the national spotlight.

Anyway, back to baseball.

"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The overall problem
is that athletes, celebrities and elite alike all lack accountability.  They are creatures of our fame-hungry society.  Charles Barkley pointed out, "We (athletes) are held to such a higher standard, and we should be. But come on, don't go crazy. Don't make us out to be Public Enemy No. 1 because we do one thing wrong. Just because I can dunk a basketball doesn't mean I should raise your kids."

But the fact remains that if you are in a public position, responsibility comes with the job.  And an athlete is just dense to think otherwise.

That said, if we to only have athletes of a higher moral standard, we wouldn't be able to fill any rosters.  To which I say, Whadderyagonnado?

she

by Sarah Hope on May 8, 2006 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A further problem
is that the athletes who ARE doing a LOT of good in our society don't get recognized for it. Because good is boring.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hear hear
If it bleeds, it leads.

Wait, then should this blog be on primetime??  Waddya say, Al?? :)

she

by Sarah Hope on May 8, 2006 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

For every Barkley there is a
Pat Tillman..

For every Kobe there is a Steve McNair.

These people are human beings they are capable of making mistakes (Marbury beating his wife) and also capable of doing great things (Marbury and the Katrina relief)

He is right.. Celebrities should not carry the burden of raising your kids. I guess that is where the conservative in me really comes out.. is my view on personal responsibilities.  I believe we have to accept responsibility for the choices we make.. You started smoking? okay well whose fault is that.. the people who make the cigarettes or you for smoking them..

Prior to the early 90's I would have faulted the cigarette companies. Now I am not so sure.. Ultimately we must take our own responsibility for the things that we do. Bonds needs to take his.. Kobe his.. and others theirs..

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

YES
Finally, we agree on something :)
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i'm just saying
that if God blessed me tomorrow with some outrageously fantastic public position - for instance, Kerry Wood's wife - I would definitely take on every responsibility that comes with it.  That's the right thing to do.  It shows class, it shows integrity.  To ignore it, say whatever I can do whatever I want - that is the most selfish, egocentric way to approach the situation and you will surely screw yourself in the end.  A la Barry Bonds.
she

by Sarah Hope on May 8, 2006 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i dont know about you..
but i like the wife kerry's got now ... she's a looker.. Not to say you are not a looker yourself.. just that Bah nevermind Someone get me a shovel so I can dig my way out of this one .

Anyhow I agree with your post.. you have to take some responsibility for your actions; however, people that say well look Sarah is doing this, So its okay to do this.. thats when it becomes not okay.  Somewhere along the way theres a departure from a logical conclusion.

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Um, my name IS Sarah, after all
Coincidence?

Probably.

Having a public position is a slippery slope.  I don't envy anyone in that position.  It's hard, but you HAVE to set an example.  What example you choose is your decision.  And I would love for people to start choosing the right one.

she

by Sarah Hope on May 8, 2006 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re
And what responsibility is that?

Professional athletes are entertainers, nothing more and nothing less.  They have no higher responsibility than you or I.

Maybe this is what's really wrong in society.  People see idiots like Tom Cruise jump up and down on a couch and rant about subjects he's obviously ignorant about and conclude that because his job as an entertainer puts him in the public eye (another problem with our celebrity culture) that he's somehow acting from a platform of greater standing than those watching.  He's not.  If anything, his profession makes him less likely to be well-informed.

It's the same thing with professional athletes.  The failure comes not from their inability to meet some higher standard of behavior but from those who have such expectations.  If anything, professional athletes are less likely to meet even an "everyman" standard of responsible behavior.  From the moment they first touch a ball, they are pampered and excepted from societal norms.  They are taught, over and over, that they are specifically not responsible for the things that they do, and others will clean up their messes for them.

The sooner people stop worshiping athletes (or any celebrity, for that matter), the sooner they'll start to see them for the people they are and not some idealized, fictional character.  They play a game - very well, to be sure - but that's all.  They don't cure cancer.  They don't create new technologies.  They don't negotiate peace.

When prima donnas like BB or KB use the standing they've gained from their particular talent the way someone like Bono has, then I'll start to sit up and take notice.  Until then, I can do without them.

by Jed Taylor on May 8, 2006 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, that's brand new information
given that I said the same thing, Jed.  They are creatures of our fame-hungry society.  Yes, society has created the proverbial monster.

But it is what is freaking is.  And as long as it is, any person with class would consider it their responsibility to use their position for good and keep their life as ethically admirable as possible.

The idea that this responsibility does not exist is a product of a lazy and spoiled generation who wants to do and have things their way with no respect for anyone else but themselves.

C'mon.  Have some pride.

she

by Sarah Hope on May 8, 2006 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re
That's not at all what you said.

You said that people (sports figures) in the public eye have a greater responsibility (to whom is unclear) than those who are not in the public eye.

They don't.  And the expectation that they do is (a) something they've never agreed to and (b) what typically creates disappointment and resentment when this assumed higher level of responsibility isn't met.

The idea that this higher level of responsibility doesn't exist is the result of their being no negotiation between the subject and his supposed public.  Notice that there is, in fact, negotiation between him and his employer(s), who do include conduct clauses in the contracts to cover this very issue.

The lazy and spoiled generation you speak of has failed to meet even the basic standards of personal responsibility that everyone must.  We're not talking about that.  We're talking about something more, and something you seek to impose on someone else without even asking if they're willing to accept it.

by Jed Taylor on May 8, 2006 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree
I think inherently people of high status are thrust either willingly or unwillingly into the public eye.. therefore they have to watch their step more so than a typical person does.  Now do they have to be Mother Teresa.. a perfect human being in every sense of the world and dedicate their lives to the common good.. of course not.. however if they do something such as use a curse word toward a co-worker its national news.. if they get into a fight outside of a club its national news.. if they have a gambling problem its national news..

Now.. what people cannot do is take those problems and say its okay Michael Jordan had a gambling problem so it must be okay for me to have one too.. There inlies the difficulty

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re
There's a world of difference between recognizing that the actions of people in the public eye will be, well, public and expecting that because of this, they have an obligation to behave toward a higher standard than they otherwise would have.

No one's arguing that what entertainers do passes for news these days.  My position is that there is no higher standard of behavior to which they must aspire, other than, of course, what they may have contractually agreed to.

If you, or someone else, is going to say that there is, then you're going to have to say what that standard is, its source, how the individual becomes obligated to it unilaterally, and how it may be judged that the standard has been violated.

Good luck.

by Jed Taylor on May 8, 2006 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Um,
I'm not a liar, and it's funny - you can read back to double check that I'm not.  

What I said that I said, I did indeed say.

I hope you made yourself feel better by your rant, because I'm just shaking my head wondering why you felt the need to spew out such an over-elaborate way of reiterating your point.

I did not say that their responsibility is greater, but it does get more attention.  So in that respect, you could say that the pressure is greater.

If you make a good example for a kid in your neighborhood, no one may notice.  But if you're on t.v., the whole country will. It's not rocket science.

You can keep this thread going, I actually have to do some work.  But I will save you some effort by telling you that I will not be talked into advocating that celebrities live carelessly.  It's just not going to happen.  This I will stand firm on.

she

by Sarah Hope on May 8, 2006 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re
And I hope you've made yourself feel better by once again being Ms. Snarky.  Given what you usually write about in here, it's a wonder you have a job at all.

Look, I can't help you don't understand what you write.  All I can do is point out that you've repeatedly claimed people in the public eye have a greater responsibility to behave a certain way.  I've just filled in the blanks for you (i.e., compared to whom) and pointed out you're several crayons short of a box in the "I've actually thought this thru" department.

Now, I could take the time to quote back to you the various places in this diary where you've done that, but why bother.  You're not stand up enough to follow thru with your position, so I'd just be wasting my time.  Anyone with an iota of brain power can read and understand that this is your position for themselves.

You're welcome to try to weasel out with a claim that all you really meant was what people do gets more attention, and that's hardly something anyone's gonna disagree with.  Shake your head all you want - it doesn't change the fact you made statements you can't defend and that you're unable to understand the difference between mine and "advocating that celebrities live carelessly."

What you're doing is intellectually lazy.  I'm sure you'll have some postively witty repartee in response that completely avoids mine, but, then, I wouldn't expect less from you.

by Jed Taylor on May 8, 2006 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If the pressure is there..
To an extent, you DO have an obligation to either rise above the level of moral obligation or succumb to it.  You cannot just skate on by and say I am not going to worry about that."  

How many Americans would you estimate smoke marijuana on a regular basis?  

Why is it such a large deal that Ricky Williams smokes in the off-season then?

How many Americans do you think have gambling problems?

Why is it such a big deal that Barkley and Jordan have estimated losses of 7-8 figures gambling?

As a celebrity, you either rise to the level of moral pressure put on you by the media and by the expectations of the masses.. or you fail. That is the reality of the situation.. Just ask Ricky.

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re
Says who?  Who sets this "moral obligation"?  Since when does a group of people get to unilaterally tell someone else how to behave, especially to a standard that they themselves aren't beholden to?

The examples you cite are big deals to the kind of people who read People Magazine.  They generally don't have the wherewithall to live their own lives so they live vicariously thru others.  I personally couldn't care less what Ricky Williams smokes or what Jordan or Barkley do with their money.

Ricky Williams is having trouble because he's having to decide between living his own life, which includes getting high, and making millions of dollars playing football.  The NFL, as a private business, has the right, IMHO, to set whatever restrictions it wants for employment.  Ricky gets to choose.  This is how it should be.  Williams situation has nothing to do with the ever-present busy-bodies trying to tell others how to live.

Some of the greatest figures in the arts have been those who have rejected this idea that as a public figure they should change the way they otherwise would behave.  And thank goodness they did.  As Einstein so correctly observed (which he did about a lot of things), "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."

by Jed Taylor on May 8, 2006 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually when I said below..
I meant a little lower.. Keep going a little lower.. but in order to respond to your rebuttal

In case you haven't noticed the distribution and consumption of marijuana in the United States is outlawed.. so in that sense its the United States government that is holding the people to that moral standard.. My point with this post was that people have a tendency to blame their problems on others as sort of a sublimation of their habits in life.

You are obligated to follow the laws as set forth by the government in which you live.. in some instances you should rise above the laws in which you live.. Barkley nor Jordan should spend 6 million dollars gambling their lives away when they could give the 6 mil to the starving and homeless. Yes I believe moral standards should be set not as law or steadfast obligation but as general expectations that if not met.. would lead to some sort of blacklisting or boycott by the American public.. Won't ever happen.. but in my mind its a beautiful thought

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ms. Snarky?
I rather like that... aside from the fact that noone outside of retirement communities uses that word anymore.  Oops, was I just witty?  I'll try to keep that at bay.

Not only are you embarrassing yourself, you're embarrassing this blog with your cheap shots and atrocious behavior.  Whether I deserve my job is none of your concern.  The mere fact that you have made it your concern is just another example of how purely pitiful a person you are.  

I have no doubt you have a job and I have every faith you do quite well at it.

Again, you have completely ignored everything I have said.  Let's make this simple.  

I believe that celebrities have a responsibility.  I do NOT believe that they have a greater responsibility than us.

See?  See how there were a couple different words in that last sentence?

Why don't you find the lonesome losers blog and wreak your deplorable havoc on them.  I'm sure Chuck would enjoy the company.

Regards,

Ms. Snarky

she

by Sarah Hope on May 9, 2006 6:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh.my.gosh.
I just looked at Chuck's site and the first thread is titled "Getting Snarky."  
she

by Sarah Hope on May 9, 2006 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But
I agree with you that Bono is the greatest human who has ever lived. I just know he would love me if he got to know me. . . if he'd take my calls. . . .and drop that stupid restraining order.. . .
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You Too Huh Julie
that makes two of us..

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I bet I know where you came from
we seem to share similar views on many things. Did you find your way over here from Daily Kos?
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No..
This is my first and only blog.  Prior to finding this blog, I dabbled on a sports site and found it to be unfulfilling.  I find Al's commentary to be refreshing and his insight on the game to be actual insight. (which is more than I can say for most other blogs).  As for my political lean its leftward.   Definite leftward.. I actually found the site through John Sickles Minorleagueball.com.  As I trust Mr. Sickles approach to minor league scouting for my 32 team Real GM.  Unfortunately he couldn't predict Delmon Young whipping a bat at an umpire.. Because I have Delmon in the minors.. Fortunately he only costed me Oliver Perez and Paul Maholm and i received BJ Upton and Delmon.. Looking like a push so far.

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the kind words!
And for the rest of you in this part of the thread, I'm a big U2 fan myself.

by Al on May 8, 2006 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not that anyone asked
but I came here from DailyKos.  It's a decent blog, but I found it a bit too (ok, go ahead and laugh) conservative and pandering for my taste.  The necessary caveat is that I am someone who for example thinks Pat Tillman was a horrible human being for rushing headlong into something he didn't understand, and thereby being the cog in a machine I wholly disaprove of.  That's just one man's meaningless opinion, and that's why I came to talk baseball instead of politics.

On an unrelated note, I'm seeing a lot of Ad Hominem attacks today, and while I'm relatively new here, that seems to be a new thing as well.  Is this par for the course, or is there something kooky in the water?

"There's no success like failure, and failure's no success at all." -B. Dylan

by Wood20K on May 8, 2006 10:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.
Bono is the shizznit.
she

by Sarah Hope on May 8, 2006 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re
Well, I don't think I'd go so far as to call Bono the greatest human who's ever lived.  I disagree on a number of particulars of some of the things he advocates, but a full analysis of why it's a bad idea to simply forgive the debt of the third world without significant structural changes is a topic for somewhere else.

I admire Bono for his art and for his passion and committment to both it in-and-of-itself as well as where it has taken him politically.  I could spend pages simply analyzing the creative genius of U2 as revealed in their recordings.  What's important for what is, after all, a discussion of BB, is that when an entertainer is able to get the attention and then the committment of a man of the skills and accomplishments of Paul O'Neill in an effort to do something - anything - to address the abject poverty and health crisis of an entire continent, it speaks to the good celebrity can achieve.

But since this has come up elsewhere, let me also emphasis that I in no way believe Bono or anyone else has any obligation whatsoever to lift so much as a pinkie toward such work.  And I imagine the fact that he, and others, choose to do so makes it that much more admirable.

by Jed Taylor on May 8, 2006 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your personal pissing contest aside
What Bono is doing is as you said "admirable"; however, I believe he DOES have some obligation to giving back to the public in some facet of his life.  

Bill Gates has set up a university with his money and gives away millions of dollars.. (Unfortunately Bill Gates would operate at a loss if he saw a 100 dollar bill laying on the ground and went down to pick it up)

Bono has based his riches in part to the public.. So he gives back by spending a great deal of his money in promoting the rehabilitation of war-torn third world countries.  Can someone make him do this? No, in that sense he has no obligation, however, does it go a distance in increasing his star power and world reknown?  I would say yes and there is where his obligation lies.. in further increasing awareness for something he is passionate about..

Bill Holden did the same thing last spring... Was he obligated.. No.. but he made a choice to support a cause with the resources he had available.

In this sense we all have an obligation to do what we can for the "common good".   It might be the socialist in me speaking but I believe that everyone should do SOMETHING whehter it be volunteer through a church organization or childhood sports organization.. or give money to some sort of program. I believe we are all obligated to do these things and if you are in a position to do more.. well you do it..

If you disagree with me that's fine.. I don't expect everyone in the world to say, you are an insightful thinker.. Infact some people will probably read this and say .. this kid doesn't know what the heck he is talking about.  And that is okay.

To use a quote that has been used many times on this site..

Sometimes you win, Sometimes you lose and sometimes it rains.  That quote applies to life at large as well as baseball.

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re
We actuall agree more that you realize.  But read back over what you're written and see how you're ambivilent about the concept of obligation and unsure of its source.

There's a world of difference between asking an individual to aspire to a particular personal ethic - in this case, sharing his largess - and holding him to an external obligation to which he was never a party.

I agree completely with you that the communities I'm a member of are better when I contribute to them.  The irony, of course, is that I, too, benefit, so it's also a selfish act.  But the source of that sense of obligation is internal - it's an expectation I hold for myself.  I completely reject the idea that anyone else has the right to tell me what I should or should not do, and hold me accountable to their expectation.  And I don't have the right to do that to anyone else.

See the difference?

by Jed Taylor on May 8, 2006 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was a joke.
But I do really really love U2--have for almost (gulp) 20 years. . . .is that possible? I can't be that old. . .
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I got the joke...
but apparently Bono decided not to lift the restraining order anyway.. apparently "I want to have your children" is anatomically impossible or something.. why let anatomy stand in the way of my feelings for Bono eh?

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re
So what do you consider to be U2's best album?

And if it's any consolation, I still remember when XRT starting playing U2 in the very early 80s, back when they were a great station.  Back before there was such a thing as CDs.  Back when we stayed up to the wee hours making mix tapes, one track off each record at a time and the trick was to blend the fade outs and ins so that there wasn't any audible click between tracks.

Now we can just fire up CoolEdit Pro, remaster a perfect digital rip, and produce a CD that sounds better than mass-produced.  But whenever something's gained, something's also lost....

by Jed Taylor on May 8, 2006 7:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

They make you sign waivers for everything
I was in Borders on State and Randolph a few years ago and some TV show tried to get me to sign a waiver just because I was shopping behind some reality show that was taking place.  The waiver isn't Barry.

Personally I like Bonds and love watching him play.  People act like he killed their dog.  You should hate dirty politicans.  You should hate violent criminals.  Barry Bonds is the bad guy in wrestling.  Sports fans need perspective....

by JonH on May 8, 2006 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Whatever
when the guy who caught Maris's 61st homerun tried to give it back to him, he told him to keep it and sell it to help his family out. Bonds won't sign one without a waiver for his reality television show. Give me a freakin' break.
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You just implied
that we have no perspective at all. That we don't hate dirty politicians and we don't hate violent criminals, and we spend our lives thinking of ways to tear apart Bonds. That's just not true.

Your "bad guy in wrestling" analogy is totally false. Bad guys in wrestling are actors. Characters.  Much, much different.

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, what I am implying is...
That people are treating Barry like he has really done something to wrong them.  Barry Bonds is an entertainer.  No different than a singer, an actor or a... professional wrestler.  

Sure it's not fixed and that's what makes it so interesting.  The people compete against each other and we watch and it's fun.  It's not life or death.  The flack Barry Bonds takes is pretty excessive.  Who cares if he is a jerk in real life.  I won't ask him over for dinner.

by JonH on May 8, 2006 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I see your point
BUT we fundamentally disagree with the role of an athlete in society. I see it as a much bigger problem than a bad guy in professional wrestling.

I just honestly can't see how anyone can love baseball but at the same time not care if a player cheats. That makes no sense to me.

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bad Guys in Wrestlings
are paid to act that way..

Bonds does it for free.. mainly because it gets his rocks off

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Finally someone who gets it
Barry Bonds is the bad guy, The yankees are the evil empire.

Its all entertainment.

Just playing out in reality without the results fixed.

"You know what God told the cubs. Don't do anything until I get back!" Pete Rose

by Will71081 on May 8, 2006 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's different
because Sosa didn't have a book written about his suspected steroid use at the time he was hitting all of those homeruns. All of that evidence wasn't there. So I don't think it's hypocritical at all, not unless you want to start bashing every single player who's playing well just because it "might" be the juice.

Not to change the subject, but since when was LeBron an a-hole? I've never seen anything from him that would put him in that "love to hate" league with Kobe, the Yankees, Barry, etc.

And yes, it's good for sports to have a "dominating a-hole" to root against, but Barry's situation is different than just being "a dominating a-hole."

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who roots against Lebron?
Everybody likes that guy and for good reason.  He's good natured, unselfish, talented and fairly humble all things considered.  In short, he is the Anti-Kobe.  I understand calling all the other teams/players a-holes, but I don't get this, and I never swayed from my Bulls fanaticism.  Remember when opposing teams wanted to see Jordan go for 50, but still have their team win?  People want to see Kobe get beat and have 6 points.  Lebron falls into the Jordan catagory in terms of fan sympathy, in my opinion.

Wow, sorry for fixating.  I had a moment there.

"There's no success like failure, and failure's no success at all." -B. Dylan

by Wood20K on May 8, 2006 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's what I said!
LeBron rocks.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

is this really surprising?
This isn't something competent broadcasters do. Yes, I know ESPN is heavily invested in Bonds with his reality show -- something I refuse to watch, incidentally -- but the skew in favor of Bonds, when clearly most all baseball fans (excepting Giants fans, of course) are against him, is nothing short of disgusting.

the cubs broadcast team is financially invested in the team and has been papering over futility since the advent of television. this is how the world works.

by gaius marius on May 8, 2006 9:58 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I do know...
... that Jack Brickhouse did this for years.

He never did it as blatantly as the ESPN people do. I mean, not even MENTIONING the controversy about Bonds?

by Al on May 8, 2006 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's ridiculous
I'm especially shocked by Joe Morgan glossing over Bonds. You'd think that as one of the greatest infielders of the modern era, he would be a little more peeved by all of this.

But MLB doesn't sign his paychecks anymore. ESPN does.

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

radio broadcast
i was doing homework last night and listening to the ESPN AM 1000 radio broadcast of the game with the national broadcasters. the color-guy "Soup" Campbell was asked how he personally felt about bonds and the whole thing and he stammered his way through a 5 minute pain-fest about sosa and mcguire and the strike and fans not caring and babe ruth eating hot dogs and finally, mercifully, the final out of the innning was recorded, commericals were queued, and i sat there thinking how a man can be asked a specific question and not give an answer. and then i saw that the first 15 minutes of sportscenter was a bonds love-in and i realized that the booyah's sign Soup's paycheck.

the whole thing is a joke.

by Bebo1060 on May 8, 2006 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But
have any of us been calling out ESPN on their coverage?I've sent my sh*tty email to them, the Tribune, and King Kauffman at Salon.com.

Anyone else?

"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 10:01 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Sure have.
Do it. Everyone. Let ESPN know how pissed off you are.

If you are, in fact, pissed off.

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here's the link to email
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?page=contact/espntv

Have at 'em, kids.

"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't dislike Bonds as much
as most people, but I found the signature incident ridiculous.  He refused to sign the ball and then had the guts to tell the guy to sign a waiver for his reality show (Which I'm also not going to watch)?.

I'd walk him every time he comes to the plate, unless the game is specifically on the line.

Heh, even then, they could do something like what the Dodgers did a few years ago - walk him with the bases loaded.

by VS on May 8, 2006 10:05 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

That was...
... the Diamondbacks, actually.

The game was on May 28, 1998. The D'backs had a two-run lead, last of the 9th, two out, and Bonds was at bat with the bases loaded.

They elected to walk him, forcing in a run, and take their chances with Brent Mayne. Mayne obliged them by lining to right to end the game.

by Al on May 8, 2006 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Al
how do you possibly have room in your head to hold on to the knowledge you need to remember how to brush your teeth and use the bathroom? You remember more game details than anyone I've ever "met" in my life!
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ah, so it was the D-Backs
Well I get some slack for getting it wrong, I was only 8 at the time!

by VS on May 8, 2006 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why are we discussing Bonds
instead of discussing what "we" are going to do about the Cubs? I understand that there's not much fans can do, but at least let your frustrations be heard, make as if you care!

by CubFaninNY on May 8, 2006 10:19 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

There's been...
... plenty of that in other threads.

Just thought we could start this discussion, considering Bonds will be facing the Cubs from Tuesday through Thursday.

by Al on May 8, 2006 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Face it...
theres nothing anyone can do to stop him from passing Ruth.. its time to stop bitching about it and just accept that a cheater will be very high on the list..

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

We can't stop him
but that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't voice our displeasure over it.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No
But if ESPN is shoving a story in our faces that we have no desire to be a part of, should we sit back and be complacent? Should we accept the fact that cheating happens, and thereby open the door for more cheaters and let the sport disintegrate before our eyes?
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

its a major news story..
Write ESPN and complain.. and when that doesn't work.. eventually you are going to have to accept that no matter how big of a jerk, racist, and cheater Bonds is or isn't ..America is going to eat this up. Contoversy breeds ratings

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Like I said...
I'm not saying we can STOP him. But that doesn't mean we should just shut our mouths and LIKE it.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You don't have to like it..
But no one is hearing your desperate cries for him to stop.. its falling on deaf ears. thus my point.. why bitch about something you cannot control..

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Then why care
about anything at all? You're saying we should only talk about things we can control. Can't bring down gas prices on your own? Shut up about it. Can't singlehandedly bring the troops home? Stop talking about it. Can't stop terrorism? Shut your mouth. That's an inane argument.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Theres a difference between matters which
affect us personally and that which do not.  Is money being taken from your pocket every time Bonds homers.. Is a member of your family or a close friend dying every time someone gets killed in Iraq.. Are hundreds of people dying because Bonds used steriods and is a dirty cheater.. No.. There is an acute difference between the topics you mentioned and Bonds's record pursuit. ITS A GAME.

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You just said
"Why bitch about something you can't control?" You have a point about not being so directly affected by the situation, but that by no means should make a difference in our right to say anything about it.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow
that kind of attitude would explain A LOT about what's going on in this country right now.

Whoop! Whoop! Whoop! Political statement alert! Whoop! Whoop!

My sincerest apologies.   ;)

"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I vote..
I voted in 2004 IN Ohio nonetheless.. I renounced my ability to vote in IL so I could vote in a state that actually mattered.  I also went out and helped fellow college students register as well.

Like i said before.. there is an acute difference betwen politics and sports.  Politics affect me .. whether Bonds hits 1,000,000 Homeruns will never affect me..

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's the whole point!!
Yes, it's a major NEWS story.

But ESPN is telling us only one side of it.

by Al on May 8, 2006 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And the other side isn't well enough documented?
Go pick up a copy of The Game of Shadows.. or whatever the book was called.. Go read Canseco's text.. go read any of the 5-6 books that were published in the last 2 years about the rise of steriods in professional sports..  

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't say it wasn't documented...
... but if ESPN is supposedly "The Worldwide Leader In Sports", as they bill themselves, to ignore one side of a HUGE issue like this is a tremendous disservice, and opens thems to legitimate charges of favoritism because they are making money on Bonds due to his reality show.

They don't have to AGREE with the opposite side, but they ought to at least acknowledge it exists. They are not doing this.

by Al on May 8, 2006 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sincewhen
Did anyone actually consider ESPN to be the defining source of Sport.  I realize I might be young but I've never taken ESPN to be the Bible of all that is sport.  

You do not either i'm sure..

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not
You're totally right on that. But it is one of the major "news" sources for sports, and I'm irritated that it's not being less biased in its coverage.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't...
... but as I said, THEY DO.

If they're going to be "the worldwide leader", then LEAD. They're not.

by Al on May 8, 2006 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Its a slogan Al
and we are to believe that Fox News is "fair and balanced" as well huh?

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fox sure believes
they're fair and balanced. Because they believe they're always showing the truth.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't believe they feel:
they are showing the truth particularly when their news network is based mostly on political opinion..  They feel they bring on that ridiculous guy in the bowtie as a liberal opponent someone re-fresh my memory on his name.. and its fair and balanced.. that guy is just a punching bag.  O' Reilly brings guys on the show and screams at them for a good 30 minutes and when they try to get a word in edgewise he cuts their mike.. They know what they are doing.. they choose not to accept it in as a means to attract viewers.  ESPN is doing the same thing.. they want viewers.. Why would continuing the obvious smear campaign against Bonds serve as any benefit to anyone watching the show?

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK, fair enough
I see your point on Fox News. I also see your point on WHY ESPN does what they do. But I still don't like it, and I wish they would be less biased.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

To be fair
Pretty much every TV news network has political leanings. CNN, for instance, is basically the opposite of Fox. The unfortunate thing about ESPN is that it really has no opposite, so we're stuck with just one side of the story.

by Perkins on May 8, 2006 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually
since 9/11, CNN is almost the same as Fox. Those of us on the left sure don't CNN is on our side.
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Uh-oh
I did it again. Whoop! Whoop! Whoop!
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Um
I have some bad news for you, maybe you had better sit down. . . .
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Not Mr. Rodgers...

Not Big Bird and the Sesame Street gang..

Please Don't tell me Cookie Monster need for cookies was just another Right-Wing ploy to get the poor hooked to sugar in order to prevent them from becoming wealthy !!!!!!! I refuse to believe that

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sorry
I don't know what to say.
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

In one sentence You've ruined my Childhood
Next you're going to tell me that Ryan Sandberg and Mark Grace were drug abusers.

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And...
...an amphetamine-taking cheater is at the top!

by jolietconvict on May 8, 2006 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

turn your backs
Al, I think that's a great idea.

Turn your back on Bonds when he's at the plate.  There is a lot of power in that gesture-- much more than in booing.

Do it.

Do whatever we can to get rid of Barry.

by Romero on May 8, 2006 10:25 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I've heard...
the plan of turning your back on Bonds when he comes to the plate. And while I loathe the man as much as the next guy, count me out on turning my back to him - or anyone else attempting to hit a baseball with a round bat - if I'm sitting anywhere close enough to risk taking a scorched line drive off the back of my noggin. Al, from your vantage point in the bleachers, sure, this is a fantastic idea to silently voice your disdain. For anyone sitting along the foul lines, well, we all saw what happened to Barry when he took a baseball off his dome!

by Clark B on May 8, 2006 10:26 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

This is...
... what I'm going to suggest to anyone I know, and to all of you, when the Giants come to Chicago in September.

Hey, maybe Bonds will retire before then.

by Al on May 8, 2006 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No Bonds at Wrigley
I believe he'll be in too deep with the investigation long before September, and will be forced to resign.....

by Cajuncub on May 8, 2006 10:38 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

That's a good point...
... what will happen if an indictment is issued against Bonds for perjury or tax evasion? Will he then be suspended? Good question.

by Al on May 8, 2006 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ESPN Ombudsman
Oddly, ESPN has their own ombudsman. If you want to kvetch about Bonds' reality show, or ESPN's coverage of teh Barry, direct your comments to George Solomon.

el linko de mayo

As the site describes it: "If you have comments or questions regarding ESPN's coverage of news, issues or events, please send them directly to Ombudsman George Solomon using the following form:"

The poster formerly known as CherryPoppinCubbies

by jrm78 on May 8, 2006 10:53 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Uh-huh..
..I'm sure all the emails go right to his inbox just like how all of those "error reports" sent to microsoft when a prog crashes show up on Bill Gates' desk every morning.  Pure show.  
Chicks dig the long ball

by Will23 on May 8, 2006 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not really...
...Solomon regularly writes a column discussing his work as ombudsman, addressing reader concerns, and answering questions on why coverage decisions were made and how they were made.  

It's not going to change things, most likely, but I applaud ESPN for at least having Solomon out there to address the issue - you better believe he's getting a ton of mail on ESPN's coverage of Bonds, its lack of critical inspection, and its shady deal for "Bonds on Bondage" uh, i mean, "Bonds".

by Chadnudj on May 8, 2006 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Picture from Philly
http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2006/05/08/sp_giants0121df.jpg

Cubs fans should do something like this when the Giants series rolls around.

AC036198 Fire Dusty. Please.

by gjdow on May 8, 2006 11:17 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

You know what...
... I'm sick of hearing this conversation and I love Sunday Night baseball. It's why I wake up in the morning. I think Jon Miller is the best broadcaster in the business, and keep in mind he's a Giants guy.

With that said, Miller has been the effectual press secretary of the Giants and is forced to address Bonds every day he goes to work. I'm sick of hearing the steroid conversation, and I think Miller assumes that the world knows the story by now.

I'd rather watch a San Francisco game without the constant attention and accusations against Bonds. It's become dull. And I was surprised they even put up that banner at the end of the game.

With that said, I hate Barry Bonds with all of my heart. I hope he stays at 713 the rest of his life.

"Babe Ruth did it on hot dogs and beer. Hank Aaron did it with class. How did you do it?"

by KevinFosterFan on May 8, 2006 11:21 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Man I wish Prior were pitching
I swear my all time favorite Prior moment was
th division clinching celebration in  03 when
assuming we would play the Giants in the post
season, Prior told the press that " He not learned
to respect my elders" A direct retort to Barry's
attack on Prior and Z . I just LOVED that comment.
However I don't think Z has learned to respect
his elders either so it might be fun

by jessica on May 8, 2006 11:37 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cheating
Forget steroids for a moment; the fact that Bonds is given a special dispensation to have body armor in a size other players aren't allowed to have, and then he can hang out over the plate with that is just plain crooked.  I can give a forgive a person willing to sacrifice everything to make themselves as good at a thing as possible (even if I wouldn't do the same), but I cannot forgive the league's complicity in this.  And let's just say the fact that he's unlikable doesn't help any.

Also, in regard to the conversation about the great Hank Aaron and the notion that mere availability both necessitates and proves useage, I'm reminded of a song by Jay-Z where he says, "My momma always told me don't argue with fools/'cause people from a distance won't know who is who"

"There's no success like failure, and failure's no success at all." -B. Dylan

by Wood20K on May 8, 2006 11:59 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Well,
Barry's got 99 problems but a b----- ain't one.

(Can we use that word on this board? Eh, I'm not going to risk it.)

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was playing semi-pro ball when that song
was first released, and this one day I really got a hold of one at the plate.  I returned to the dugout saying, "I've got 99 problems but a pitch ain't one".  The song was new enough that people laughed instead of groaned.
"There's no success like failure, and failure's no success at all." -B. Dylan

by Wood20K on May 8, 2006 10:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Before
the animosity on this post ramps up any more, let me just remind you all that there are NINE HOURS left until game time.

At this rate, by the time the game starts, we'll all by laying in the BCB common room with Xs over our eyes and our tongues hanging out of our mouths.

Which reminds me:

"Randy lay there like a slug, it was his only defense. . . "

"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 12:03 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Haha
I've been like that for the past six games. Now I seem to have caught a fourth wind. My plan is to crash for a few hours (at work and on the L ride home, no less) and then I'll be ready for some more bickering.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I will be here this evening..
I am going out with a friend for dinner and drinks and then I should return around game-time.  

Anyone who wishes to join me in the Cubs drinking game this evening feel free.

Everytime you see the Cubs have a runner on second with less than 2 outs and do not get the runner in.. take a drink.

Everytime you see the Cubs fail to pitch their way out of a jam with 2 outs.. take a drink.

Everytime you see our fearless leader Dusty Baker look perplexed and unsure of what to do next...take a drink..

Everytime you see Freddy Bynum sitting on the bench.. ask yourself why he is on the ML roster and then take a drink.  

Everytime you see our 3-4-5 hitters..whomever they are tonight strike out with runners on. take a drink.

By this pace you'll be drunk by the 3rd inning and there will still be 6 Innings of baseball left. GO Cubs :)

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Dusty says to Larry
"Well, what do we do now?"

Drink the rest of the bottle. Goooooooo Cubs.

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Grace did abuse
...alcohol.....and that's a drug. Smoked, too. All very much legal.
It's a hot topic, but let's get back to the problem at hand. Maddux MUST bust the streak tonight. I cannot be there, so maybe THAT will solve the problem. Darn work.

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on May 8, 2006 12:27 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

That comment
Was sort of tongue in cheek.  But the PBS thing I didn't see coming.. that one stung.. in the words of Chris Farley.. "I did NOT see that coming"

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Said it before and will say it again
McGwire's record-breaker.....

Against the Cubs and Steve Trachsel.

So it's pretty much inevitable this week, Bonds will go "high and deep" against the S.S. Titanic, I mean the Cubs.

That being said, I also remember the Cubs winning the wild card that season. Of course, they were swept by the Braves, so there's that.

Maybe we need Gary Gaetti back. He could even be a bullpen fallback, since he pitched a little.

Poppppppppped it up...

by nextyearcub on May 8, 2006 1:05 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The Thing About Z....
That I love is that he's incredibly wild at times, and is no stranger to a good plunking. But the mound never gets charged. I wonder why.....

Seriously, look at little Pedro Martinez, how many times has he been rushed in his career. Then take Big Z, 6 foot 5 260-270 pound Ox like him. I know I wouldn't do anything other than take that plunking and like it.

I say plunk away on Bonds. Serves him right for wearing that bullet proof armor and crowding the plate. Miss that armor, and see what Barry does about it. My guess is take it, and like it.

by CosmicCharlie911 on May 8, 2006 2:10 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Two other things:
1) Did you all see the home run Bonds hit off of Lieber?

Hey, I don't like the guy, think he's a cheater and illegal drug user (yep, steroids are and were illegal absent a prescription, even back in 1998), and would love to see teams walking him into retirement.

But that home run? Wow.  I saw it live on TV and literally jumped out of my seat....I've rarely seen a ball get out of the park that quickly and that far.  Sammy's shot in the NLCS in 2003 (the one that hit Arne's shack) comes closest in my mind.

2) Bonds will never replace Ruth in baseball mythology.  You're talking about a guy who hit more home runs individually in seasons than most TEAMS hit during his career, in much bigger parks.  A guy who hit his 714 in THOUSANDS fewer plate appearances than Bonds or Aaron, for that matter.  A guy who played before modern medicine and training regimes extended careers into their 40s.

I mean, Aaron is an amazing athlete and rightfully in baseball's pantheon of legends.  But even with the record, does his legend surpass the Babe's?

Nope.  Same with Barry.  50 years from now, we'll still be talking about Ruth and Cy Young, etc.  Bonds will be discussed as the Hall of Famer he would have been without steroids, but will never have the "legend" aura of Ruth, or countless other players, for that matter (Ted Williams, DiMaggio, Mantle, Cy Young, etc.)

by Chadnudj on May 8, 2006 2:32 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

This is part of the problem...
... because that's exactly how ESPN was describing him during last night's telecast, as a "legend" of the game.

I have a real problem with that. ESPN has blinders on. Sure, report what's happening. But tell ALL sides.

by Al on May 8, 2006 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Legend?"
I'm not so sure he is anymore.  Look, had he never used steroids, he would have gone down in history as one of the best LH hitters in baseball history.  He would have been a lock HoFer.  But he wouldn't have been "legendary" like Ruth and the all-time greats.

And now? Sure, he's passing Ruth, holds the single-season HR record, etc....but he's also known as a steroid user.  Pete Rose might have been a legend, but once the betting on baseball thing came out, his "legendary" status was kaput.

ESPN is lessening its journalistic credibility with its Bonds coverage, and I guess that's the problem I have with it.

by Chadnudj on May 8, 2006 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re
I don't think ESPN is a journalistic outlet anymore.  They're a brand, and as such, they seek to market a particular perspective about something, in this case, sports.

Brand management is all about convincing a market that its products define the category, that it leads on the issue of what's best, what's cool, what's hip, what's to be paid attention to, and what, ultimately, has value that its target market should spend money on.

To do that, it has to sell as opposed to simply report.  ESPN is completely in bed with Bonds, and its brand maintenance requires it to ignore the negatives of this story while it tries to pump the hype and get people to believe that this is the most important milestone in sports since the 4-minute mile.

Compare the way ESPN handles sports to the way FOX handles what it calls news.  It's the same thing.  Neither outlet is reporting; they're both packaging and selling a particular perspective, and doing so with an overall consistentency that lets you know what to expect before you even know the details.  That's managing the brand.

People like brands.  People rely on brands.  It relieves them of the burden of having to analyze individual, specific instances of things.  Of course, when people start letting others do their thinking for them, ESPN and FOX is what you wind up with.

by Jed Taylor on May 8, 2006 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow.
You're absolutely right. Applause here.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 8, 2006 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree...
... it's a shame, really, because ESPN COULD be all that, but has chosen not to be.

Thus, "The Worldwide Leader In Sports" means nothing. It's more like "The Worldwide Leader In Following The Dollar Signs".

by Al on May 8, 2006 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Afterall.
isn't owning a business all about profit maximization?

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure it is...
... just don't pretend to be something else.

by Al on May 8, 2006 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

In an era driven by image..
ESPN is just following suit. How many rap songs tell you about their lifestyle ? What they  have in their houses?  This generation is driven by what people think you are.. not what you actually are.

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re
No, it's not.  Profit is an important component, almost always the primary one.  But it's not the sole component, and the maximization of profits is always limited by the others.

For instance, compare how the New York Times handles news coverage with how ESPN handles it.  The NYT could probably make more money taking an ESPN approach by hyping some things and ignoring others, but they'd give up any claim to jouralistic integrity to do so.  They, thankfully, prefer the integrity to the marginal profits.

Own a business and you'll come to discover that while making a profit is fun, and certainly a necessity, there are other values you can accomplish that are just as, and sometimes more, rewarding than the number on the bottom line.

by Jed Taylor on May 8, 2006 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

While I agree
Reporting that Bonds as a cheater would not only ruin any profit incentive but undermine the show's intent.. which is to humanize Bonds by showing he doesn't hate the media as much as everyone thinks he does.  

So theres no positive to smearing him..

No ratings.. No profits.. and no shiney happy people

by cubsfan2883 on May 8, 2006 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re
Oh, definitely.  In ESPN's case, there's no pretense to anything remotely approaching journalistic integrity.  It's all about the money.  That, and continuing the branding of ESPN hyping and then selling anything and everything sucked into its gravitational orbit.

by Jed Taylor on May 8, 2006 7:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Costas NOW
I get totally sick of the Bob Costas/Billy Crystal Who Loves the Yankees More? contest, but Costas just had a bunch of HOFers on talking about Bonds--Reggie Jackson, Mike Schmidt, and, in the studio, Bob Gibson (yay), Joe Morgan (boo!) and Tim McCarver (meh). I was surprised--they were a lot less kind to Bonds than I would have expected, especially from Morgan.

These HOFers have to start speaking out, because it makes MLBs position that much more uncomfortable--which I am all for.

"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 8, 2006 8:41 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Bleed Cubbie Blue, the Chicago Cubs blog for the SB Nation, created on February 9, 2005 by Al Yellon
Start posting about the Cubs »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Sb_small
Ask BCB - Wacky Trade Proposals
Bucky_small
OT: Annual Thanksgiving  Thread
Small
Reversal of opinion...Bradley will not be moved
Yelloncard_small
Baseball Picture Puzzles Overflow 1
Derrick_rose_poster_by_rokasm_small
You know you want him, Get it done Jim!

Recent FanPosts

Small
Time to get yelled at...
Cubs_small
Cubs HR Over/Under
Cubs_ying_yang_small
OT Aged Stadiums
Small
Here's a thought
Jake_fox_small
25th Annual Cubs Convention
Dscn2381_small
Cubs 2010 2B and "the L word"
Cubswin712_small
Is there anyway we trade some of our high-priced players?
Yelloncard_small
Milton Bradley Named NL "LVP" By Joe Posnanski

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recommended FanShots

Would you blow up the farm system for Halladay?
FanGraphs calls Grabow a "waste of cash."
Fangraphs hasn't given up on Geo, should you?
Baseball America's Top 10 Cubs Prospects
An animated tribute to the no-hitter that Pirates pitcher Dock Ellis threw on June 12, 1970. Simply...

Recent FanShots

Miguel Cabrera Available, which leads me to ask if Granderson really is available
Keith Moreland On How The Cubs Can Win It All
Marlins Considering Moving June Series Vs. Mets To Puerto Rico
Mike Kiley insults Wrigley and Cubs fans
Muskat on Fuld : even DUMBER than usual
Free Agency Blunders
"I Want Mark DeRosa"
White Sox Sign Vizquel To One-Year Deal
Cubs' next major hire: marketing guru
Zambrano attends Bears game

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

It Is Only...

Cubs By The Numbers

Cubs By The Numbers is a history of the ballclub by uniform number, but the biographies help trace the history of our beloved team in a new way. For everyone who's a Cubs fan, anyone who ever wore the uniform is like family. Cubs By The Numbers reintroduces readers to some of their long-lost ancestors, even ones they think they already know.

Click here to order your copy, available now!

SPONSORS

Recent Stories in Ticket Exchanges

Yelloncard_small
Ticket Exchanges: Cubs Convention 2010
Yelloncard_small
Ticket Exchanges: General 2009 Ticket Exchange
Yelloncard_small
Ticket Exchanges: September 29-October 4 Homestand

Managing Editor

Yelloncard_small Al

Editorial Cartoonist

Toonmike_small toonmike

Contributors

Dsc_0139_small holy mackerel

100px-boisehawkscaplogo_small Josh77

Small shawndgoldman