Bleed Cubbie Blue: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: BTB's Final Preseason NCAA Hoops Bracket

Rushing To Judgment

This post is about the current steroid/HGH controversy involving now-former major league pitcher Jason Grimsley.

And it likely is going to piss some of you off, so I would like to ask you to read it ALL carefully before you comment.

Last Thursday, Will Leitch, proprietor of the terrific Deadspin blog, claimed that he had some of the names named in the Grimsley affidavit. And the key name revealed was Chris Mihlfeld, a former trainer for the Kansas City Royals who has also been the personal trainer for Albert Pujols (as well as Mike Sweeney of the Royals) for many years.

It appears that this claim was false, according to the Kansas City Star:

The trainer said both Grimsley and Grimsley's attorney told him he was not in the document. Edward Novak, a Phoenix criminal defense lawyer representing the pitcher, didn't immediately return a voice mail and an e-mail seeking comment.

And, Mihlfeld had this to say about Pujols:

"I've known Albert since he was 18 years old. Albert won't even drink his protein shakes anymore during the season because he's scared they're contaminated. That's been part of his training for the last five or six years, and all of a sudden he won't even do that. He's tired of it. I'm tired of it. I'm tired of people putting this kid down. He's a great kid. Let him be great. He's clean."

No doubt you have seen the blaring headlines and angst that has come out since then; the implication made, of course, is that since Mihlfeld was named as supplying Grimsley with HGH, then he must, since he is Pujols' personal trainer, have supplied Pujols with HGH or other illegal drugs also -- therefore Pujols, who has had a totally clean reputation up to now, must be dirty along with so many other ballplayers.

Have no doubt: there are many, many ballplayers who are using illegal performance-enhancing drugs, likely many more than we have ever imagined up to now. But the leap that many in the blogosphere and the MSM took, assuming Pujols is dirty because of this claim, caused a bigger furor than the original post. Deadspin, seeing the furor its post raised last Thursday, had to clarify:

  • There is no claim that Albert Pujols has taken HGH.

  • There is no claim that Mihlfeld was in any way a distributor of HGH, or steroids.

  • There is a source -- whose confidence has always been rated at "80 percent" -- who says Mihlfeld's name is in the report. Mihlfeld has denied this, and we, as always, hope he's right. As anyone who has ever read this site knows, Albert Pujols is our favorite player. We own four different pieces of merchandise with his name on it. We are out to get no one, least of all him.

EIGHTY PERCENT? Leitch may not have made those claims, but he sure implied them in his original post. And as a result there is a furor that has caused, among other things, the highly regarded CCD at 1060west to post the following scathing critique of the St. Louis media for defending Pujols:

The newspaper that serves the self proclaimed "best fans in baseball" is about to understand the old saying above. The news that Jason Grimsley has ties to Albert Pujols' trainer comes as very little surprise to this fan, or any fan paying attention. It's just another shoe dropping in baseballs current landscape of cheaters and ass covering. I'm not going to discuss Albie's innocence or guilt. Plenty of more intelligent baseball people will tell you what to think about Pujols.

OK, let's go see one of those "more intelligent baseball people", the greatly respected Will Carroll of Baseball Prospectus, has to say about all of this:

With the Grimsley case just beginning, and names--in the words of Dan Patrick, "shocking names"--hiding behind the black marker of Jeff Novitzky, we're only at the beginning of this story. Novitzky's pen is likely to get more use in the coming months, checking names off the list he's working from of implicated players with past positive tests and connections to the illegal use of performance-enhancing drugs.

We just cannot jump to conclusions. We must remain grounded in fact and science rather than wild speculation. The truth is bad enough and getting worse. (Emphasis added)

Will Carroll is exactly right. Maybe Albert Pujols IS dirty. But we do not know that yet. What all this flap is based on, at this writing, is guesswork as to one redacted name on a FBI agent's affidavit -- and that person has been specifically told by Jason Grimsley AND his attorney, who presumably have seen this affidavit, that his name was NOT on it -- rather than hard facts. All of us must calm down and let this story unfold. We have only the very beginnings of it. Here is a reasoned column by Gordon Edes of the Boston Globe examining the entire issue and asking, among other things:

Does there come a point where we turn away in disgust from the whole mess and say, "No mas"? So far, that hasn't happened, maybe because the pill-popping and injecting in sports isn't much removed from the Botox/Viagra/Ritalin world we live in, where there is a pill or injection to address every need.

But with HGH now openly in play, baseball no longer has the luxury of saying that there is no adequate test and therefore it is powerless to do anything. Blood testing appears inevitable, despite the debate over whether a sufficiently accurate test has been developed. Short of that, baseball may have to listen to those who advocate that blood samples be taken and stored until a trustworthy test is in place, that the threat of exposure down the road will act as a sufficient deterrent.

It took until I read "Game Of Shadows", meticulously researched and with damning details, until I absolutely, positively believed -- which I do -- that Barry Bonds is dirty. Did I suspect it for years beforehand? Sure I did. Is it possible that Albert Pujols, and many others, are also dirty? Sure it is. Does it require a lot more in-depth investigation, by MLB (though I wouldn't put too much stock into how deep they really want to dig), the FBI, and Congress, which almost certainly is going to want to get involved? Absolutely.

Show me the proof. Here are some reactions to all this from Cardinal fans, which, believe it or not, strike me as quite reasonable.

The bottom line of all this isn't just to figure out whether Albert Pujols, who has been respected as a player who put up his great numbers without any enhancements, is in fact clean or not.

It's to learn whether or not a respected blogger, Will Leitch, who broke this news last week and had it picked up by quite a bit of the MSM, can trust his sources and go with a story that turns out to be true. If the Chris Mihlfeld story turns out to be false, that not only damages Deadspin, but all of us in the blogosphere who have -- myself included -- broken news before the MSM could get it. Will Leitch says he trusts his source -- but only "80%". That's not good enough. Bloggers have worked very hard to gain respect in the online world. I'd hate to see that destroyed by something this big turning out to be a big "never mind".

0 recs  |  Comment 103 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Well stated Al
This subject is touchy and needs to be very carefully investigated and reported much more then %80. The naming of players is wrong from the very beginning. I have never agreed with that. If people are doing somethings "out of bounds" of the rules they will be caught in time. There will always, ALWAYS be a trail.

The facts will be what they are, what that is remains to be seen.

Either way Baseball losses!!!!  

Cleverly Disguised as a Responsible Adult

by Scott G F on Jun 12, 2006 8:29 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

It will be interesting
to see which side the Union will stand on here.  With bad news coming out on a monthly basis, if the Union (see Don Fehr) tries to hardline again, it will only make the entire league look bad, especially the players.  If it is in the best intrest of its players like the Union heads say they are, then they have to come clean and make sure everybody is checked.  It is not only for the health of the game, but more importantly, the health of the players.
First Boston, then the White Sox, its now the Cubs turn.

by indytaz on Jun 12, 2006 8:36 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Well said....
I agree with you 100%.  Unfortunately, there will be speculation due to the redactions.  Inncoent players will be caught in the dragnet.  

As for what the MLBPA will do, I think they will not have the opportunity to act.  I believe Congress will implement Olympic drug testing on all American sports.  The nuclear option is here.

I went to Wrigley and all I got was this crappy "In Dusty We Trusty" shirt!

by timeforachange on Jun 12, 2006 8:50 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Off Subject
Al, Do you still have the link to the Orange Guy shirts?

by MO Cubs Fan on Jun 12, 2006 8:59 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't, unfortunately...
... that was an ad... and I don't have an archive of the ads.

by Al on Jun 12, 2006 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I ordered that shirt as soon as I saw it
You can find it at this site.

I must say, the orange design on navy shirt does look good.

by JD on Jun 12, 2006 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks
JD, thanks for the link.  I agree the navy does look good.  I believe I'll get one.

by MO Cubs Fan on Jun 12, 2006 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believe
you are right about Congress.  Its a sad state when an outside source has to come in and clean up a mess, and as we all know, Congress is great at cleaning up messes (sarcasm).  But that is what it is coming to and all sports, whether the athletes want that or not, will have to abide by a Congress mandated sports testing that will probably be alot more invasive as far as going public with the results.
First Boston, then the White Sox, its now the Cubs turn.

by indytaz on Jun 12, 2006 9:41 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Congress' Involvement is Worthless
Joe Sheehan made some excellent points on this today.  He maintains that Congressional involvement actually hurts the debate, since it reduces an exceedingly complex issue to easy one-sided bullet-points on which to grandstand in the interest of "saving the children".

Congress' involvement is only about one thing: getting on TV for an issue with zero political downside.  Who cares about abridging the rights of spoiled pampered megamillionaires?  This issue is super easy to be on the "right" side of, and it makes these Washington vultures look like superheroes standing up to comic book archvillians.

Joe asks: Are Congress' constituents screaming for them to put the hammer down on the issue?  Of coruse not -- their time would be better spent handling the real issues that affect us every day.  But no one is really going to complain, not with the columnists greasing the skids by lauding the congressmen's involvement.  

MLB welcomes it, as well -- the more Congress gets involved, the more gravitas the issue has, and the easier it will be to push the players back on their heels when the CBA is finally negotiated in earnest.

Ah, it's all very sweet, isn't it?

by chasfh on Jun 12, 2006 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What about, say, the NFL?
Is HGH banned in the NFL?  If so, how they can test for it?  How do we know NFL players aren't taking this?

Perhaps I don't fully understand the policies in each professional league, but it seems MLB is taking the full brunt of criticism from those looking to point fingers at allegedly tainted athletes.  Isn't it possible that the NFL is tainted with HGH users as well?  Is baseball is getting slammed more than other leagues just because they are going further in cleaning up this problem?

by Richie Hebner 18 on Jun 12, 2006 10:05 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

HGH
The NFL does not test for HGH, so if it's banned, the ban is meaningless.

The NFL does not ban amphetamines.

While WADA claims to have a test for HGH, there is much dispute within the drug testing community on the reliability of that test.  Despite testing for HGH at the Athens and Turin Games, no athlete tested positive for HGH, which is seen as more of an indictment of the test than an indication  that all athletes are clean of the stuff.

by Josh77 on Jun 12, 2006 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Excellent Post!
Absolutely excellent post!  I don't condone the naming of people through rumors or sources, it doesn't mean much...

The greater issue at hand is the pathetic lack of courage from anyone in a position of authority within the sport and most especially the players and managers/coaches.  Ozzie Guillen's comments were deplorable on this matter.  If I were the owner of the Sox he would have been fired about 10 seconds after making such closeminded, bullying, ass-hat remarks.  The sad thing is that Ozzie's view is the norm in baseball.

The truth is that the sport if loaded with cheaters and protects cheaters and values cover-up and covering butts more than anything.

I enjoy the actual sport of playing baseball.  I enjoy watching it and analyzing the game.  Unfortunately, the people who play the sport and manage it are by and large a cowardly bunch who prefer gravy training their huge money contracts and will do absolutely anything to continue to extract such money from the game.

It is nit "unfortunate" that Albert gets thrown in with cheaters.  It is totally reasonable and predictable because the sport wants it that way, his fellow cheaters want it that way, his manager wants it that way, his ownership wants it that way, and ultimately Albert, through his inactions wants it that way.

It's much easier to be complacent and takes the money.  Everyone cheats and everyone takes the omney...

Every single player, dirty or clean deserves the stain because none will stand up to the punk-ass dunderheads like Ozzie Guillen who encourage cheating and delight in it...they glorify the courrupt and only see "ratting someone" as bad.  They'd fit nicely in Mike Noreth's world, where the corrupt, political hacks, and wise guys are heroes and only those who tell the truth are villified...they sicken me.

by DudeVf1 on Jun 12, 2006 10:06 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

n/t
It is nit "unfortunate" that Albert gets thrown in with cheaters.  It is totally reasonable and predictable because the sport wants it that way, his fellow cheaters want it that way, his manager wants it that way, his ownership wants it that way, and ultimately Albert, through his inactions wants it that way.

will you still be saying that if there were allegations against D-Lee?

"In this life there are nothing but possibilities."

by flyball on Jun 12, 2006 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Absolutely!
Absolutely--even if they say it about Mark Prior, Wood, Dempster, the whole dang club, my comments remain...

It is interesting to me how Juan Pierre suddenly cannot hit much and the huge drop off started with testing. But again, this is rumor mongering...

The game is totally stained, if your clean and you don't want the stain then stand up to the jerks like Ozzie and the players who are dirty...Everyone takes the money and perhaps not everyone, but darn closer to everyone takes the drugs...

by DudeVf1 on Jun 12, 2006 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

THANK YOU.
n/t
"People are too hung up on winning. I can get off on a really good helmet throw." -Bill "Spaceman" Lee

by elscorcho0682 on Jun 12, 2006 10:08 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Mihlfeld
"I've known Albert since he was 18 years old. Albert won't even drink his protein shakes anymore DURING THE SEASON because he's scared they're contaminated. That's been part of his training for the last five or six years, and all of a sudden he won't even do that. He's tired of it. I'm tired of it. I'm tired of people putting this kid down. He's a great kid. Let him be great. He's clean."

Nothing in this statement suggests Albert isn't taking steroids or HGH, just not DURING THE SEASON.

THESE ATHLETES HAVE DONE NOTHING TO WARRANT AGAINST PRE-JUDGMENT. UNTIL SOME OF THEM STEPUP AND ADMIT THIER GUILT OR SPEAK OUT AGAINST THEIR FELLOW BALLPLAYERS THEN THIS RUSH TO JUDGMENT IS GOING TO CONTINUE. I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH CCD'S TAKE ON THIS TOPIC.

cubsfan4life

by cubfan4life on Jun 12, 2006 10:13 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The two things are not related.
Yes, ballplayers are wrong to protect cheaters.

But until I see proof that Albert Pujols, for example, actually IS one, instead of idle speculation and guilt by association because someone THOUGHT they knew a redacted name on an affidavit, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

Rushing to judgment is ALWAYS wrong. Further, if Deadspin winds up being wrong about this -- and it appears that they are -- that puts a stain on all bloggers who are trying to establish credibility for this medium.

by Al on Jun 12, 2006 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The affidavit..
..is irrelevant.  It is a fact that Mihlfeld has an association with both Pujols and Grimsley.  Even if it isn't Mihlfeld's name on the court document, he must have known that Gimsley was on something when he was rehabbing Grimsley following his Tommy John surgery.  If Grimsley took HGH/Roids when he was rehabilitating his arm, then Mihlfeld knew about it.  That is what brings suspiscion upon Mihlfeld as bring the supplier to Grimsley, and possibly more players, and I don't think that is too much of an assumption to make.  

 I am not saying that Pujols or any/all of Mihlfeld's clients have taken steroids.  But it certainly (and justifiably) puts them all under a microscope.  

Chicks dig the long ball

by Will23 on Jun 12, 2006 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It absolutely is a leap...
... because it wasn't stated in the affidavit, and Mihlfeld's name is probably not in there.

What you are proposing above is nothing more than guilt by association.

It MAY turn out to be true. But the leap you are taking is not backed up by ANY evidence.

That's all I'm saying -- just DON'T rush to judgment.

by Al on Jun 12, 2006 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It is more of a leap..
..to assume that a trainer of a professional athlete who is paid to rehabilitate players (and in this case a journeyman late 30s pitcher) doesn't know what his client is putting in his body (i.e. Mihlfeld is the supplier) OR is so gullible as to assume that the players he works with magically can return to form faster than it ever has been done before.  
Chicks dig the long ball

by Will23 on Jun 12, 2006 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Until
The Union wants to get its act together ( which it never will) and come up with some form of testing with some "teeth", and acutally hold the players accountable, this will be nothing more than the circus going from town to town.
Where is Carmen Fanzone?

by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Jun 12, 2006 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Huh?
Now not only do they have to prove they're innocent, they have to prove that they shouldn't even be suspected?

Welcome to the Star Chamber.

by Josh77 on Jun 12, 2006 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Non-realistically speaking
The only way to get rid of this mess would be to have the union institute a full-on Olympic-style policy that would include HGH.

Not to say that they all should be suspects until they change the policy, but it certainly would help.

"People are too hung up on winning. I can get off on a really good helmet throw." -Bill "Spaceman" Lee

by elscorcho0682 on Jun 12, 2006 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

They don't have to prove any of this...
players don't have to prove their innocence, except to the extent the opinions on blogs like this matter to them.  Be serious about this, the players have nopthing to prove in order to keep playing baseball and the rumor mongering about guys and roids is not much different than other disparaging remarks constantly hurled at players and managers by me and others who post here...

The media coverage is what it is, when you are Pujols level of star you live in a fishbowl...

But more to your point, the players must actively promote stringent random testing during and off-season.  This is what Albert or any other clean player must get on their horse and cry for...But they have not and even schilling back pedaled quickly.  Why?  Because the cheating is so pervasive that life in the locker room will become miserable for the dreaded "rat".  Pujols hitting well now in his prime doesn't make me jump to the conclusion that he is on drugs...But the pathetic testing procedures of MLB makes me think it is plausible for many to cheat, including him.  Now if he were 35 and doing this then yes, only the whores for "logic" would claim that he wasn't on drugs because we have no real "proof".  The silliy thing about Bonds is that no one, in any majore professional sport has ever increased their production at that rate at that age, never...It's fantasy land to give that guy and Sosa and McGwire the benefit of doubt...The players bring this upon themselves because they prefer an environment that condones cheating...

I'd have no problem with everyone coming out and saying we all cheat so no one has an unfair advantage, that's awesome, come out and admit it. I don't care what happens to these guys when their hearts explode 5 years after baseball, but if they want to be tough guys about then come out and admit what you are doing...Make the Commissioner suspend 80% of the active players, wouldn't that be a great show of Union solidarity?  

by DudeVf1 on Jun 13, 2006 1:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Damn
I sent the link to Deadspin to everyone I know. I'm part of the problem!!!!!

:(

"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on Jun 12, 2006 10:34 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I would just like to add,
that as much as I hate Pujols for being a Card, I don't WANT him to be dirty. In fact, I really want him to be clean.

There, I said it. Something nice about someone on the Cards. Don't expect to EVER hear it out of my mouth again.

"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on Jun 12, 2006 10:49 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Ok, ok.
So MAYBE the reports were wrong.

Then how do you explain...

THIS!!!!!!
http://niketown.nike.com/niketown/media/3d/nikepro/swf/wallpapers/wallpaper_pujols_1024x768.jpg

This is Albert Pujols... this is Pujols on a steroids that give you a wooden face.

Yeah, I rest my case....

she

by Sarah Hope on Jun 12, 2006 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

nice.
n/t
"People are too hung up on winning. I can get off on a really good helmet throw." -Bill "Spaceman" Lee

by elscorcho0682 on Jun 12, 2006 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

the wood...
is an improvement.

by bison on Jun 12, 2006 8:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

al, my impression of the 1060 west post was...
not that pujols (and the cardinals) were being defended , so much as not even observed and investigated.

and that chicago fans and media cannot crow too loudly, as sosa was never held up for scrutiny until very very late in his stay in chicago.

i may have missed out here; if so, please disregard.

by dc60123 on Jun 12, 2006 11:00 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

No one's saying ...
... this isn't being investigated.

All I'm saying is that Pujols shouldn't be automatically assumed to be guilty, because of his association with Chris Mihlfeld -- since Mihlfeld apparently was NOT named in the affidavit.

by Al on Jun 12, 2006 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wasn't assuming guilt Al,
Just criticizing the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, they are scared to get their hands dirty, IMO.

by ccd on Jun 12, 2006 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're entitled to your opinion...
... I happen to disagree; I think they were saying the same thing that I was, which is simply:

Don't rush to judgment.

by Al on Jun 12, 2006 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is it....
like when the Trib, Times and the Herald all investigated Sammy?

Whether Pujols is guilty or innocent, it obviously does not matter.  He is guilty by association due to how this situation was handled.

I would be curious to see how everyone here would respond if there were allegations/ rumors about DLee?

I went to Wrigley and all I got was this crappy "In Dusty We Trusty" shirt!

by timeforachange on Jun 12, 2006 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If DLee..
..had Milhfeld as a trainer at any point in his career then of course there would be accusation and suspicion.  It is going to be like this for anyone who ever had Milhfeld as a trainer, and rightfully so, just as all of Greg Anderson's clientele (Santiago, Sheffield) have been accused.
Chicks dig the long ball

by Will23 on Jun 12, 2006 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't....
kid yourself.  It is much deeper than that.  Players who have breakout years (DLEE) are now suspect.  MLB and MLBPA are responsible for this.  By allowing this to continue, all players are under the microscope.  Put the testing in place.
I went to Wrigley and all I got was this crappy "In Dusty We Trusty" shirt!

by timeforachange on Jun 12, 2006 7:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

chiming in....some thoughts to consider
I always found it curious (to say the least) that since the 1980's when "doping" became the competitive vogue in the Olympics, then football that it would eventually find its way to MLB. Let us not make any mistake, the type of athlete now successful in MLB is not the same that was predominate in the 60's through the 80's. I think Sandburg & Bonds & Sosa,  Maddux and Clemens are the best powerpoint examples.

Before I go on few of you have ever really competed at a higher competitive level, I did and have friends and acquaintances who went to the highest. The singular dedication to reach that point is above simply talent or even brains, it is making the absolute most (to the smallest nano degree) of all you have to beat out the literally thousands of also-rans to the next level. My niece is now a Olympic hopeful and she has leagues to go to move just to that qualifying level and then well competing in the arena is another enormous step, let alone being successful at that level.

All that, the temptation is without question, and I tend to believe that a significant number to almost a majority of MLB players will have experimented with "doping" at some time.

Sandburg was the epiphany of the player in the '80's, he hit for power, average, had speed, defense and played smart. Bonds was almost the heir apparent to that model. I recalled how good he was in Pittsburgh. Then we now know what happened after Sosa/McGwire. Sosa is the other example, a good promising player, 30HR's good field, arm, speed then he bulked up and became a gladiator. Maddux is the other example, the gile, deft pitching pitcher, who dominated the '90's with his command. Clemens was the other dominator, power and more power and the perfect bulked up body.

You can go through the roster rolls and see body after body, player who was almost marginal and then suddenly a big year.

The Olympians have gained their stuff by fooling the tests and still some got caught, now what would you think about a million dollar sport without tests.

MLB.

Bill Veeck planted Ivy during 'The Depression', and over time the Ivy Walls has become the most distinct symbol of Wrigley Field.

by Ivy Walls on Jun 12, 2006 11:03 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Common sense, Al,
would tell you that Albert Pujols has taken or is taking PEDs.  

Whether there is proof or not really doesn't matter.  You've already convicted Bonds without proof as we've all done.  At least with regards to Bonds I can say this...the guy got to the ML level and became a hall of famer without the use of PEDs.  

Seriously, Al, not sure if you have some lovefest with Albert or not, but you defending him because there is no proof is laughable.  The last thing required in convicting somebody of using PEDs is facts these days and you're a part of that group.  

Can't you just look at Pujols and say to yourself, well, you know what, normal human beings don't look like that.  They aren't that big.  It's the 2nd easiest open and shut case regarding steroid/PED use in sports.  Bonds being the easiest.  

Don't even give me this "we need to be patient" crap.  We're never going to know for absolute certain who took them.  All we have is our common sense.  Use it.

by Maddog on Jun 12, 2006 11:18 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Uhh
"you know what, normal human beings don't look like that.  They aren't that big"

You mean normal human beings that don't lift weights as part of their job?  Just pointing at everyone who has large muscles and saying they use HGH is ignorant.  

Also for the record Performance Enhancing Drug is too vague.  There are plenty of performance enhancing drugs that athletes take that are legal.  I work with multiple people who run marathons regularly and they take all sorts of legal performance enhancing drugs that they buy at health food stores etc...  

Just from the linked article you see Pujols drank protein shakes until he started getting paranoid that something illegal could be in them.  

Just because a daily life of an internet troll doesn't yield the Adonis physique doesn't mean it's not possible to achieve without perscription medication....

by JonH on Jun 12, 2006 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Look...
I work out 3-5 mornings per week.  I run a minimum of 5 miles every single morning and it's not at all uncommon for me to run 10-15 miles on a weekend morning.

Most of my family (my brother and my father especially) also work out regularly.  Most of my friends spend more time in a gym on any given day than most people do in their lifetime.  

I've been around people who dope their way through it and I've been around people who do it the "right" way.

You cannot mistake someone who doped with someone who didn't.  Don't even begin to try and tell me you can.  The signs are so obvious that my 8 year old nephew can spot the dopers in an instant.  

Albert Pujols, my friend, is a doper.  That simple.  

I could care less if he is or if he isn't.  I don't buy into this whole "integrity of the game" bullshit that some do.  It's nonsense.  In a game full of cheaters, and yes, nearly every single player takes something to improve their performance, Albert Pujols is the best.  Barry Bonds is one of the greatest in the game's history.  If you want to separate the stats cheaters put up, that's up to you, but since we'll never be provided a shred of scientific data that proves or disproves that taking PEDs significantly improves one's game I'll choose to not differentiate.  

The game...sport in general...are so dirty it's not even funny.  

by Maddog on Jun 12, 2006 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Furthermore,
Why do you differentiate between legal and illegal PEDs?  Just because one is illegal, it tarnishes the game of baseball?  So if someone is smoking marijuana, I assume it tarnishes the game of baseball, right?  Pot is illegal and all.  I thought this was about increasing one's performance in a manner that wasn't available when Babe Ruth, specifically, played the game and hit home runs?  No?  I mean, you and others like you, sure as hell don't give a rat's ass about the health of the players.  It's not about what's illegal, obviously since marijuana doesn't tarnish the game.  It's about the thin line established by our government about what one can take as a supplement legally, apparently.  Might the government be wrong?  Not possible?  Once again, it has nothing to do with the so called integrity of the game.  If it did, all PEDs would be viewed the same.  Nothing to do with the health of the players.  Nothing to do with the integrity of the game.  Nothing to do with the distinction between legal and illegal.  I'm stumped.  So, please, what precisely is the problem here?  If Barry Bonds had only 525 home runs nobody around would give a crap about it.  Don't even pretend you would.  This is about a home run record.  Nothing more and nothing less and until Pujols or anybody else comes close to that record we won't go after them.  Just like we didn't Bonds a few years ago, just like we didn't with Sosa, Palmeiro, and McGwire.  It didn't matter until they were breaking home run records.  That's the bottom line.  Admit it!

by Maddog on Jun 12, 2006 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll admit it
and I won't apologize for it, either. Look, baseball is a game of numbers, more than any other sport. We recognize numbers like 714 and 61 and 4256. They've become an institution of the game, as much of a part of the game as the ball and the bat.

That being said, I take exception with your assumption that people don't give a rat's ass about the health of the players. My biggest problem with steroids is that kids see it, start using, and get hurt.

A good friend of mine died trying to bulk up for baseball with steroids, ok? You know why? Because he saw that players were getting bigger and succeeding with them. This was before those ads with the shrinking basketballs, or before people really knew how this stuff worked. We can debate all day about athletes' role as role model, but like it or not, they're being emulated. You pay someone millions of dollars to play a game for six months, stuff like that isn't too much to ask.

Listen. I don't have a problem with steroids because it's cheating. Baseball is has been a cheater's game as long as it's been around. I don't have a problem with it because it's breaking records.

I have a problem with steroids because they cause the game to be played in a way that I don't like. The long ball is big now, and I say that this explosion of homeruns has taken a lot away from the game. We've all seen pictures of Bonds in his Pittsburgh days - most of us are old enough to remember seeing him play then. He was a five-tool player. He was an arrogant jerk, but he was an athlete, a virtual HOF lock.

Fast forward to today. Bonds, thanks to steroids, has become nothing more than a hulking beast who limps to the plate and blasts baseballs 400 feet. He can't run. He can't field. He can't throw.

Compare the two Bondses, and realize that not only will the latter Bonds be remembered more than the former, but he will probably be viewed as superior.

That's what hurts.

"People are too hung up on winning. I can get off on a really good helmet throw." -Bill "Spaceman" Lee

by elscorcho0682 on Jun 12, 2006 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

actually
the second easiest case would be some guy named Sosa. Also no "proof" but, as you said, "normal human beings don't look like that.

by bh714 on Jun 12, 2006 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

True.
I'd say "toss up" between the two, but Sosa has been around longer and the questions regarding this issue have followed him for longer than Pujols was even in the league.  Both of them have used.  There's little doubt about that.

by Maddog on Jun 12, 2006 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Show me the proof...
... instead of an unsubstantiated "report" that "proves" only guilt by association.

Then I'll believe.

by Al on Jun 12, 2006 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've convicted Bonds without proof?
Have you read "Game of Shadows"? That's proof enough for me.

All I'm saying, as the headline for this post states, is that we should not rush to judgment because Pujols is connected to someone who MIGHT be involved as a result of hearing, through a blog post that is likely wrong, that the "connected someone" was NOT named where the post said he was.

That's all.

by Al on Jun 12, 2006 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't rush to judgment.
I've known that Pujols has taken PEDs all along.  This was just something I expected to come about as he got closer to breaking a home run record.  I did not figure it would come out after he was injured.  

Al, if you don't think being associated with this guy means anything at all, you're not paying attention.  People don't hire so and so to be their personal trainer because they had success giving drugs to a player who turned out to have a decent career.  If they didn't want the illegal stuff they'd go find a trainer who actually was clean.  Give me a break with this unsubstantiated report/rumor stuff.  I'm not trying to prove to you he took them.  

I could care less if he did.  It means absolutely nothing to me whether or not Pujols or anybody else took steroids.  It's his own decision.  I will not look at him any differently when that undeniable proof finally comes out as I did the very first time I saw the guy play.  PEDs or not, he's the best player in the game.  And my opinion of that isn't going to change whether he took PEDs or not.  

I don't look at stats and try to discern who took what and when they may have taken them.  I simply do not care.  Give me one shed of proof that steroids, amphetamines, HGH or any other PED significantly improves how a person plays this game.  You can't do it.  There are many more guys whose body's break down at the age of 25 and 26 because of steroid use than there are examples of Barry Bonds.  

"Rush to judgment?" What?  Aren't you the one talking about how Bonds stats mean nothing though you don't have a single piece of evidence that supports that you believe his numbers are steroid-inflated?  Talk about hypocritical.  This is, as i've said for 3 or 4 years now, about Barry Bonds and nothing else.  As long as you can rush to judgment on Bonds you're fine.  And I don't mean whether or not he took steroids.  He obviously did.  It's as obvious now with the information you've read as it was 6 years ago and you could tell just by looking at him and didn't have to pay $25 to be told something you already knew.  Normal human beings don't look like that.

Please, stop with this "rush to judgment" stuff.  You weren't the first to do so with Bonds regarding his stats and you won't be the last, but you were one of them despite having no statistical data to back up your claim.  None!  And you know what?  You never will.  Until numerous Player A's play w/out PEDs for a period and then play with PEDs you have not one shred of evidence to support your claims.  I can easily argue that what Bonds took broke his body down more so than if he had not taken them.  It has happened with player after player after player.  Players as young as 25 or 26 have had their knees and back go to hell because of steroid abuse.  The negative impact of steroids are equal to or greater than the positive impact and that is a fact.  It's not one that you want to hear because you want this to be about Bonds and sadly, I understand.  The guy is an asshole.  

Finally, what's proof for you may be different than what I need.  Just like the proof you need to "prove" Bonds' stats are inflated, I use the same criteria to prove Pujols took PEDs.  The kind of proof that is backed by not one shred of evidence.  

by Maddog on Jun 12, 2006 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Will Leitch

is a classless loser.  I still remember his juvenile celebrations of the Cubs' 2003 NLCS loss on The Black Table.  He can't write to save his life either.

by salparadise23 on Jun 12, 2006 11:55 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

funny
he definitely tries to pass off his stuff as unbiased. Yup. He's a douche. I do enjoy the weird sports news stories though.

by Slaky311 on Jun 12, 2006 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Both MSM and bloggers can be wrong sometimes
As I recall, Will Carroll once reported that Pete Rose had reached a deal with MLB that would allow him to join the Hall of Fame. That report got him a lot of attention on ESPN and never panned out. I would be surprised to see him jump on Deadspin in a specific way. His general gist on the steroid scandal has been caution from the start - with the caution probably developed based on his experience with the Rose story.

by goldstj2 on Jun 12, 2006 12:07 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I actually believed
...Will Carroll was right about his Pete Rose story, but MLB backed out once the news was leaked and the reaction was overwelmingly negative.  Rose was to admit gambling, say he was sorry, get re-instated, and put back on the HOF ballot.  I have no proof, of course, but it's my gut reaction.  By backing out, MLB looks good and internet reporters look bad.  Otherwise, what benefit did Rose gain by admitting his story?  None.  (A few books sold, yes, but I think he damaged his future earnings further by admitting he bet on games.)  

by MikeJ on Jun 12, 2006 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Alright guys.
You know how I used to be a sportswriter?

Well, I'm not really supposed to share this with anyone, but a "friend" of mine in the business shared that they had obtained photos of Pujols before he hit the majors.

Folks, it's not pretty.

http://www.mjsite.com/old/23.jpg

she

by Sarah Hope on Jun 12, 2006 12:47 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

HAHAHAHA
I saw a "Before/After" Bonds picture like that once. Nice work.
"People are too hung up on winning. I can get off on a really good helmet throw." -Bill "Spaceman" Lee

by elscorcho0682 on Jun 12, 2006 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wrigley Scoreboard
Has anyone looked at today's Tribune? On the front page, there's a teaser for an article in the business section. The basic idea of the article is that Wrigley's scoreboard should be replaced by a video screen to make Wrigley a more "with-it" kind of ballpark. I smell a skunk. Below is the letter to the editor I just sent the Tribune.

Dear editor,

How self-serving of the Tribune to feature an article (and a front-page teaser) on Monday, June 12, promoting the replacement of Wrigley Field's beloved scoreboard with a video screen. Obviously, a video screen would be a far more effective vehicle for advertising, which I'm sure is at the root of the Tribune's little idea. None of this surprises me considering the Tribune's nearly quarter-century history of assaulting Cub fans with ads, starting back in the early 1980s when Budweiser ads were placed under the scoreboard and continuing through the present, when fans in the "Bud-Light" bleachers are subject to a relentless barrage of advertisments blasted at them over the public address system during batting practice. At $35 or thereabouts for an average ticket, isn't the Tribune making enough money on the Cubs already, or does the company believe that the need to satisfy shareholders trumps its responsiblity to keep tradition alive at Wrigley?

by danimal15 on Jun 12, 2006 1:05 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Speaking of Witch Hunts
It wasn't in that Deadspin article, but the Deadspin  article linked  to another article that speculated that the affidavit said that one of the blacked out names was referred to as one of Grimsley's best friends.  They then found a three year old article that had Grimsley referring to Curtis Leskanic as "one of my best friends."  That is clearly guilt by association.

Joe Sheehan wrote a nice article about all this today as Baseball Prospectus, but unfortunately it's subscription-only.

But one of Sheehan's many points is that nobody gives a rat's ass about Jason Grimsley or Curtis Leskanic.  It's Pujols' (or Bonds or Sosa or Rodriguez's) blood they want.  Nobody has shunned Derrick Turnbow for having a positive steriod test.  No one is throwing needles at Ryan Franklin.  Juan Rincon isn't being hauled before Congress.  These guys have actual positive steroid tests with almost no ill effects.  This is about "getting" the big names.

by Josh77 on Jun 12, 2006 1:15 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Because
it's not just about cheating. It's about cheating and setting records. I don't care if nobodies like Matt Lawton want to cheat. I mean, I care, but they don't invoke my ire the way Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire do. I don't like cheating, but I like even less the idea of injecting yourself into the ranks of Aaron, Ruth, Maris et al by means of fraud.
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on Jun 12, 2006 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

At least you're honest.
If there were only more like you who could stand up and say why this whole thing bothers them and then maybe the people could see the absurdity.  

by Maddog on Jun 12, 2006 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Deadspin
Will never said he was 80% sure of his source, what he said was this:
How reliable are these names? We feel pretty confident in them, but we can't go 100 percent, since the information is secondhand. We'll say this: If Bud Selig issuing a press release naming the names is a 10, and picking a player at random out of the Baseball Encyclopedia is a 1, we're at an 8.

I suppose that means 80%, but it's a little bit different, don't you think?  I have no clue who his source was, but let's use this example.  Let's say Will's tip was a good friend of a secretary in MLB's office, and the secretary saw the affadavit and the names.  Is the tip as reliable as Bud Selig himself?  Nope, it's probably an 8 of 10, though.  And besides, all he did in regards to Pujols is say that the guy named has worked closely with Pujols.  Nothing more, nothing less.  You can speculate all you want.  Should he have withheld this info?  Maybe, but that wouldn't be a very interesting post, would it.  

Furthermore, you're assuming that the name's not on it because the guy himself (mihlfid or whatever) said he wasn't, and he's never dealt/acquired/distributed/ steroids, period.  Ask Rafael Palmeiro, that doesn't mean anything.  

I have no idea if Pujols did steroids, I'm just saying we can't assume he's clean.  Nor can we assume ANYONE who's played in the past 15 years is clean.  Period.  :)

by MikeJ on Jun 12, 2006 2:20 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't care what anyone says
until I hear facts that specific players aren't clean, and those players are named, I'm going to assume everyone's clean. It seriously detracts from my enjoyment of the game when every time a slugger comes to bat, I have to say to myself, "Is that guy clean?" Call me naive, tell me to open my eyes, whatever. I'm not going to assume anything about anyone.
"People are too hung up on winning. I can get off on a really good helmet throw." -Bill "Spaceman" Lee

by elscorcho0682 on Jun 12, 2006 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Absolutely, Will Leitch said 80%.
Here's the quote again:
There is a source -- whose confidence has always been rated at "80 percent" -- who says Mihlfeld's name is in the report.

Not sure how you can parse that as "not saying 80%".

I'm not making ANY assumptions, because at this time not a single person has brought forward proof of a single name that's on the FBI affidavit, other than the name Jason Grimsley. Every other name on it is redacted.

Show me the proof.

by Al on Jun 12, 2006 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ok
The second post said 80%, my bad.  

Of course I don't have proof.  Want some second-hand proof?  I rate this at 50% (might be right, might be wrong.)

Dan Patrick said on Thursday's shows that he knows 3 of the names, but he wouldn't reveal them.  He said 2 of them were complete shockers.  Keith Olberman was on that show.  I'm going to assume that Patrick shared his info with his long-time buddy/co-host.  After Deadspin revealed the names, Oblerman went on his MSNBC show, quoting Deadspin's story about the trainer and the Pujols connection.  It is my feeling that Olberman knew the names, but didn't want to reveal them until somebody else did.  That way, if the names were wrong, he wouldn't look stupid.  This is really just connecting some dots with a pencil, but it makes sense if you think about it.  

Either way, and this is the point I failed to make in my first comment: I don't think Deadspin's report reflects badly on bloggers in the MSM's eyes.  MSM already thinks that bloggers are a bunch of worthless hacks anyways.  It might be slightly more amunition for MSM, but that's about it.  

Furthermore, and this might not be obvious to everybody.  Deadspin is owned by Gawker Media, a big media company.  Will is just the writer, a paid employee.

by MikeJ on Jun 12, 2006 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your point about Deadspin...
... is well taken. I did not know that.

Anyway, your comments about Patrick and Olbermann are the same thing that Leitch did -- basing things on rumors and guesswork.

SHOW ME THE NAMES. Until then it could be anyone's name under there.

"Complete shockers"? OK, shock me. Prove it.

by Al on Jun 12, 2006 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think I'll just...
...side with Will on this one.  He has a new post that links back to your post today.  
There has been talk of a rush to judgment, and we suppose that's fair. But no matter what, these names will come out -- all of them -- and we will all know just how deep everything goes. It's just a matter of time.

We don't know anything yet.  

by MikeJ on Jun 12, 2006 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That post is fair...
... and although it does make the Mihlfeld-Grimsley connection -- which is undeniable -- we still do NOT know if Mihlfeld is named in the affidavit, which is what started this whole mess in the first place.

You choose to believe Will. I choose to believe the FACTS, when I know them, and not before.

by Al on Jun 12, 2006 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believe it to a degree
...I wouldn't bet my pinky toe or anything, but as far as rumors go I'll believe it with a certain amount of reliability.  It's a pretty solid rumor (that Mihlfeld's in the document), but it's still just a rumor until we hear otherwise, and I'll treat it as such.  Let's put it this way, I'd say it's probably more reliable than anything I see on mlbtraderumors.com.

by MikeJ on Jun 12, 2006 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let's go back to the beginning, shall we?
You say it's a "pretty solid rumor".

The FACT is that Mihlfeld was TOLD by Grimsley AND his attorney that he is NOT in the affidavit.

Believe what you will; I'll wait for the facts. Comparing it to what you read on mlbtraderumors.com is just silly.

by Al on Jun 12, 2006 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, Al
to be nitpicky, the fact is that Mihlfeld is saying he was told by Grimsley and his attorney that his is not in the affidavit. We don't know if the parties involved (including Mihlfeld) are telling the truth, and we're not aware of all of their motivation for whatever actions they have taken.

by helen on Jun 13, 2006 1:46 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I tire of the "Guilt by Association"
fallacies that get started and propagated by over-eager journalists. If you have facts about someone, print them, if you have suspicions - do some research - if you then find facts, print those.

Rumor mongering is classless and base practice and should be rooted out of journalism and left for the checkout aisle tabloids.

Go Cubbies! Pay Baseaball! - Liam, my 2 1/2 yr. old

by stelmodad on Jun 12, 2006 2:54 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Grimsely suspended for 50 games
How can they do that? Did he have a positive test for something? Or is it based on his admission?

I'm confused.

"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on Jun 12, 2006 4:28 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

According to...
... this article, it was because of his admission:
Commissioner Bud Selig's office suspended Grimsley for violating baseball's Joint Drug Prevention and Treatment Program, based on his statements to authorities regarding human growth hormone.

It's meaningless, since he's 38, sucked this year, and no one's going to sign him anyway. Interesting statement from the above-linked article:

"He's retired. It's a moot point," Detroit Tigers closer Todd Jones said. "He didn't test positive, but because he said he did, they're going to suspend him?

"It's kind of like giving a speeding ticket to a guy that got killed in a car wreck," he said.

by Al on Jun 12, 2006 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting though
that the union isn't fighting that tooth and nail. Suspending someone based on an admission has all kinds if implications. Who do you have to admit it to? Does a drunken confession in a bar to someone who tellss MLB constitute and admission? Call me crazy, but THAT is truly opening Pandora's Box.
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on Jun 12, 2006 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd say...
... an admission on a FBI affidavit is a bit different than a "drunken confession in a bar", wouldn't you?

by Al on Jun 12, 2006 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Definitely
but (remember, I come to this from a criminal defense point of view), even a confession, without corroborating evidence, isn't enough to convict someone. Granted, I know this isn't a criminal standard of proof or anything. I'm just saying that I'm suprised the union isn't making a bigger deal out of it.

Drunken confession in a bar is one thing, but what about Barry Bonds' alleged confession to his girlfriend? What if she swore to the confession under oath? Would that be enough?

See where I'm going with this?

"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on Jun 12, 2006 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is exactly the reason..
... the feds don't want Kim Bell talking to George Mitchell's investigators.

by Al on Jun 12, 2006 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think receiving a package
filled with HGH would constitute corroborating evidence.  It would be laughable for the union to protest this.

by cubsbak on Jun 12, 2006 7:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If it's Knoblauch
that could be why Dan Patrick and his cohorts at ESPNY were so "shocked".

by Matt Allison on Jun 12, 2006 4:54 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Maddog is right
If you've been around gyms any amount of time you know Pujols is on something.  It is without question.  You don't get forearms that you could hammer railroad spikes in with just by lifting weights.  The recovery time is the big thing.  These guys and lift and lift and lift - have monster workouts unheard of 25 years ago, then turn around and do the same thing a day later.  It just ain't possible unaided.  

Pujols was passed over 300 times in the draft before being taken by the Cardinals and 18 months later was one of the best hitters in MLB.  Does anyone really think so many people (both gifted professionals and scouts for the Cubs) could be wrong that many times on a guy who would be murdering major league pitching less than two years later?

All that said, until there's definite proof, you can't do a damn thing about it.

by TR on Jun 12, 2006 4:56 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Forget the affidavit..
..just use simple logic.  Milhfeld was Grimsley's trainer.  Grimsley was an average pitcher who stuck around, having Milhfeld as his trainer while recovering from massive (tommy john) surgery and "earning" a spot on an MLB roster.  

Enter Pujols - also "trained" by Milhfeld, who was once described as "pear shaped" and "not even the best player on his team" while at JuCo.  Pujols is taken 402nd overall in the 1999 draft by the Cards, while under the wing of Milhfeld.

He then goes on to Rookie of the Year('01) and MVP('05) honors, while putting up numbers that are similar to the likes of Frank Robinson, Joe DiMaggio, Hank Aaron and Jimmie Foxx.  And he is now the absolute premiere, pitch-around position player in all of MLB.  

Old cliche -- where there's smoke, there's fire.  

If your definition of proof is being caught in the act, then he (and Bonds) are not guilty.

But if your definition of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt, then fasten your seat belt.  There just simply isn't as much circumstantial evidence with Pujols (or any other Milhfeld client) as there is with Bonds, but it's still early.  

Chicks dig the long ball

by Will23 on Jun 12, 2006 6:18 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Show me...
... the "smoking gun", as the saying goes, and I'll believe it.

There is circumstantial evidence, I will grant you. And there is no doubt that baseball MUST clean up its act; the affidavit itself proves that.

But until names are actually named in public, I will reserve judgment.

by Al on Jun 12, 2006 7:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Too Many Flawed Arguements
To Al: As usual you have shown class and intelligence.  Arguing with fools is an extremely easy trap to fall into and when you do, you know what the outcome usually is.

To those that are willing to drop the executioner's axe: It's about cheating, stupid.  It's not about whether the drugs are legal or illegal (unless you're talking about MLB rules.  It's not about how many have done it in other sports or about a passion for numbers or any of that.  

Opinions are okay.  Everyone is entitled to them but they should be based on rational thought, not emotion.  Unfortunately, baseball feeds on emotion.

The apparent groundswell of anger that presupposes anyone (yes, even Bonds) without a proper hearing (either through criminal, civil, or other channels acceptable as rendering some semblance of truth--and hearsay surely isn't one of them) is a path that is simply devoid of real thought.

This rush to condemnation reminds me of a lynch mob.  Word gets out and everyone begins to feed on everyone else's anger and hate and before you know it an innocent person is strung up from a tree.  All I can see is angry villagers storming into the town square with torches and pitchforks, whipped into a frenzy by some righteous souls who just aren't willing to wait for the circuit judge to come to town because they know better.

Yes, it is possible the game we love has been completely despoiled by the purveyors of "whatever it takes."

I for one will withold my judgement until after the judge gets to town, the jury is selected, and the witnesses come forth.  Until then, it ain't nothing but smoke; a phantom; it ain't there; it doesn't exist.

Do I mean to imply we should put our heads in the sand?  Of course not.  Reason tells me that evidence is building and that evidence points to the need for further action.  I don't deny the evidence but, on-the-other-hand, I don't jump to the conclusions the lynch mob does.

Al is the poor sheriff who only has a drunk and a feeble old man at his side (I could easily fit into both of those roles) to protect the accused from the angry mob.

Think what you will, you are all entitled to, but for the love of the game, be patient, enjoy the performances of Albert Puljols, et.al., because if they're clean (no, I don't think Bonds is clean--but I'm willing to wait for a verdict from a proper venue) you will all have wasted a lot of bile and beer and missed a lot of good baseball.

by Luigi on Jun 12, 2006 7:42 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

And if they're dirty
we'll all have wasted a lot of time and money following a fraud.

Baseball (and the union) seem to have very little interest in rooting out the drug problem.  It took Congress getting involved for baseball to even pretend to care.  And right now, the feds are out in front on this, not MLB.

Thus, us fans are left to speculate about who's clean and who's dirty.  That's just the way it is.  And those of us who suspect that Pujols is using HGH based on circumstantial evidence are entitled to our opinions because baseball doesn't test for it.

So it seems to me the real finger should be pointed at baseball, not the fans who speculate based on limited evidence.  Because sppeculation is all we're really left to do since baseball doesn't test for this stuff.  It's a travesty.

by cubsbak on Jun 12, 2006 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're absolutely right...
... that baseball has shown little interest in getting rid of the drug problem. I am HOPING that this affidavit, and Grimsley's admissions, will jumpstart the owners AND the players to REALLY do something about it, not just window dressing.

Again, my point is -- pointing fingers at specific players, based on speculative "evidence", is pointless.

Show me the proof and I'll line up to get baseball cleaned up of the dirty players. I'm already in that line, actually -- I just don't know who to point at yet.

Soon, we will.

by Al on Jun 12, 2006 8:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The problem...
 is that we will never know all of the players who cheated.  The only players who will be exposed are the ones who got caught.   Think about it; if players like Grimsley are using, it is likely just the tip of the iceberg.  

MLB, MLBPA and ultimately us, the fan, are guilty.  We sat there like stooges when Sammy hit 60+ hrs three years in a row.  Think about it:  No one came close to the Maris record for 40 years and Sammy bests the mark three consecutive seasons.  Sammy Sosa, the same player who was a skinny speedster when he came up. We turned a blind eye though and purchased a lot of #21 jersey.  

I went to Wrigley and all I got was this crappy "In Dusty We Trusty" shirt!

by timeforachange on Jun 12, 2006 8:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Baseball
doesn't want to get rid of the problem.  Why would they?

The surge in attendance in MLB is directly related to the home run ball and they know it.  No way will MLB go down without a fight.  They'll do their best to keep illegal supplements in this game in one way or another.  

This game's livelihood, sad as it is, depends on it.  And you don't think smarter people than those of us here aren't trying to figure out the best way to keep these drugs in the game even before the next time the MLBPA sits down at the bargaining table?  

If MLB has to they'll just allow the players children to piss in the cup for them.  You're never going to get these drugs out of the game of baseball.    

by Maddog on Jun 12, 2006 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Baseball is actually better...
Baseball is a better game without all the homeruns, and I don't believe baseball's popularity hinges on how many homeruns are hit.
"Harlem Furniture......You'll like our style!"

by Imtrejo on Jun 12, 2006 11:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Definitely!
But most of the people who go to games don't like to pay money for 3-2 or 2-1 games.  They want 9-7 games or at the very least 6-5 games.  

I love a great pitching match-up.  One of the greatest things there is, but I even find myself flipping channels while the Cubs are batting in 0-0 game in the 5th inning.  Their offense is just boring.  

I've never, not once that I can remember, done this prior to this season, but with the Cubs offense and when Z's on the mound games are often 0-0 in the 5th inning and once the Cubs come up i'm turning the channel.  I can't handle watching their putrid, pathetic, awful excuse of an offense.  

I can't imagine how the people who love those 11-9 games are feeling right now.  No way are they buying tickets.  

Baseball will suffer because "chicks dig the long ball."

by Maddog on Jun 13, 2006 12:00 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Turning the Channel
You are turning the channel because the Cubs' offence is very boring and just plain bad, not because they aren't hitting homeruns. Fans are the same way, if the Cubs could manufacter some runs, steal some bases, maybe a hit and run or even just some better at bats the fans might not change the channel and they may even buy a ticket or two. It's not so much about the homerun.
"Harlem Furniture......You'll like our style!"

by Imtrejo on Jun 13, 2006 1:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

True, but...
...teams that hit home runs are going to score more runs.  I'm not the average fans.  My wife is the average fan and when we watch a game at home together and it's 1-0 in the 6th, she's going shopping.  It's not exciting to her.  For the same reasons soccer isn't exciting to me.  I don't understand soccer like I do baseball and I can't possibly watch something like that where few goals are scored.  I wouldn't consider paying money to see a soccer game, let alone a hockey game, which I do understand...somewhat.  

It really is the home runs that got the fans to come out.  In 1998 Sosa and McGwire chased history and all of a sudden the game has become more popular than it ever has.  

by Maddog on Jun 13, 2006 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't believe it is pointless
to point fingers.  Maybe it will help us get to the bottom of this since baseball's been unwilling to do it.  For example, if more people had pointed fingers at Sosa and McGwire back in 98 we could've learned the truth.

I think it's perfectly legitimate to quesiton what Pujols is doing, just like I think it's legitimate to question a lot of guys.  Hopefully this speculation will lead to the truth.  For example, Joe Borowski lost about 10 mph on his fastball the year they started steroid testing.  I believe he was on steroids.  I have no way proving this and we'll probably never know the truth, but perhaps somebody will investigate and we can learn more.  

Until MLB and MLBPA show a desire to get rid of these steroids, all we can do is speculate.  Hopefully the speculation will lead to the truth, which I believe MLB wants swept under the rug.  I want to know who is/was on the juice so that, for example, when I explain to my grandkids why Barry Bonds hit more home runs than anyone else I can tell them why.

by cubsbak on Jun 12, 2006 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

listen to Will
he's right the affidavit doesn't matter. it also doesn't matter that "pujols, unlike bonds, has been the same size since he entered the league." it also doesn't matter what does philanthropic causes pujols is involved with, and it also doesn't matter that mihlfeld "denied HGH involvement, period." he attended the Rafeal Palmeiro school of denials.

the question isn't whether pujols, or bonds, or sosa, mcguire, or TONS of other players juiced, because they all have. the question is how do you deal with it? saying you won't believe until you see a positive drug test is akin to sticking your head in the sand. baseball's drug testing policy is such a farce, MLB has only nailed marginal players, no superstars. do you HONESTLY think that the superstars aren't just as guilty? give me a break, it's because MLB doesn't want to sabotage it's own product. i mean, Jose Canseco and Congress had to freaking get in bed together to even get a crappy policy in place. nobody within MLB, not the owners or GM's or players, and certainly not the commissioner, has ever really been serious about it, because if they were it would have never come to all of this.

by creasybear on Jun 12, 2006 7:50 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

You are misinterpreting my comments.
The affidavit DOES matter. It is what is causing the current firestorm.

It is absolutely clear from the affidavit that specific current and former players are doing illegal PED's. No question about it.

All I am "not believing" here is the accusation that Albert Pujols is dirty because he is trained by a guy who someone CLAIMED was named in the affidavit -- even though Jason Grimsley's attorney says that trainer is NOT named in the affidavit.

The attorney saw the affidavit. You haven't. I haven't. Will Leitch hasn't.

Yes, MLB has to get a stronger drug testing policy, and NOW, or it will be mandated by Congress. There is no question in my mind that one of those two things WILL happen, and maybe before the 2006 season ends.

All I was saying in the original post -- and that is why I asked everyone to READ IT CAREFULLY FIRST -- was to NOT find anyone guilty by association, when we do NOT know the names named, yet.

by Al on Jun 12, 2006 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What?
So the level of proof needed for you to believe it is Grimsley?  What proof, exactly, would we know from this affidavit?  It's all from one person and what he said while under investigation.  

I wouldn't believe a single word in this thing.  Not one word.  Perhaps, by chance, some of it is true, but at least half of it is going to be incorrect.  You can bank on that.  

And you're willing to accept this affidavit as the all the proof you need?

by Maddog on Jun 12, 2006 10:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

MLB has to get serious
Al, i'll grant you that, that the affidavit does matter, but only in that it caused the firestorm. my point was that the grimsley-mihlfeld-pujols link is there--completely independent of the affidavit's existence.

that said, i think the firestorm is a good thing, clearly. and if pujols (for example) turns out to be clean then i'll change my opinion, but like cubsbak said very well, all we've got to go on is speculation because of MLB's garbage policy. and i think some good can ultimately come from mud being thrown around on players, even if some are innocent. if enough fans begin to speculate and become dissatisifed, and even stop going to games, MLB will be hit in the wallet, where it really hurts. and then they will be forced to get serious. either that or Congress will force them. either way, MLB must stop pussyfooting around this issue and finally confront it head on.

by creasybear on Jun 12, 2006 8:22 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Performance and baseball

If steroids and all PEDs don't affect game play, why would all of those pro athletes be doing it?  If you like to watch Barry blast the long ball and don't think his abilities are changed by steroids, why do you care that some folks are offended?

I strongly think that the HGH/anabolic steroid concoctions make baseball players better (and athletes in general).  Their muscles recover faster. They are stronger.  They are quicker in both footspeed and batspeed. I would argue the same thing about amphetamines, but I think their benefit might be less obvious and they have some drawbacks.

The mark of a great hitter used to be that they could wait a split second longer to see the pitch and still get the bathead through the zone and crush it.  Batspeed and strength are HUGE changers.  A broken bat popup can be a homerun!  Guys muscle hits through and over much more often.  Groundouts go from routine to screamers.

A cheater is someone who gains unfair advantage over his fellow competitors.  Bonds, and by your reasoning, Pujols would be classified as cheaters.  Sports is ruined by cheating.  Can you win Monopoly by automatically giving yourself $100 everytime it's your turn?  Sure.  But, it's not Monopoly any more.  It's something different.

by Woodstock on Jun 12, 2006 8:49 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Cheaters are players
who break the rules.  Unfair advantage perhaps, but if everyone broke the same rule there would no longer be an "unfair advantage" but everyone would still be cheating because the broke the rules (including the laws and statutes of the jurisdictions in which they play).

Are you making a case for the legalization of such drugs in professional sports or am I just getting the wrong vibe from what you just posted above?

by Luigi on Jun 12, 2006 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're missing the point.
Steroids, as well as other PEDs, provide both a positive impact and a negative impact.  These drugs, while they do make muscles stronger, allow you to recover more quickly and so on also break down the body in specific areas.  Your organs are forced to work harder, which puts added pressure on other parts of the body and can lead to failures and injuries.  

Also, it's believed by some, if not many, that pitchers receive a greater benefit than hitters do.  If true, doesn't that put this whole topic into another perspective?  Doesn't it make what Bonds did even more impressive if it is indeed the pitchers who benefit the most?  Is he still a cheater?  yes.  But that's not what this is about.  It's about the home run record.

There are many, many, many more 24, 25, 26, and 27 year old baseball players whose career ends with injuries that can be directly linked to steroids than there are Barry Bondses.  

What does this mean?  I don't know.  There simply is not enough information to come to any kind of conclusion.  

I can argue that steroids have an overall negative impact on the body, which once again puts this debate into a different perspective.  I can also argue that the opposite is true.  

the truth lies somewhere in between.  I provides both positive and negative impacts on the baseball player.  More likely than not, the end result gets you right back where you started.  Only difference is now you're a cheater.  

by Maddog on Jun 12, 2006 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

cheaters
No, I definitely think that steroids and other banned performance enhancers change and ruin the games they affect.  I don't like home run hitters in baseball.  I never have.  While it is impressive to watch a guy tear into a hanging breaking ball, baseball games should be won with timely hitting and all the other marks of good baseball. Not an armored juggernaught leaning over the plate.

Making all the scary performance enhancers legal would lead to illnesses and fatalities, all for the edge.  This would happen lower levels quite a bit.  I think people injuring and killing themselves to reach the majors should be stopped.

I don't think that I missed the point. Even with the negative impacts on your body, your specific set of baseball skills will be improved for a period of time.  And, even if a PED related injury occurs, when they come back juiced they are still having an unfair advantage.  Guys breaking down early only allows more cheaters to come through the game.

by Woodstock on Jun 13, 2006 7:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Al, don't put any blind faith in the affidavit.
Just because there is an affidavit signed by some gub'mint official, doesn't mean it is true.

There are many jurisdictions in this country where this weak affidavit, which contains many internal contradictions, would not be signed by a magistrate or judge. There are any of hundreds of criminal attorneys that are capable of having any evidence seized pursuant to this affidavit thrown out.

"I was not in optimum condition to manage ," Dusty said. "I regret that lapse in judgment."

by Reverend Jim Ignatowski on Jun 12, 2006 9:30 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Will Carroll's Column...
Was pretty disappointing given that he is one of the promoters of "intelligent" analysis of the game.  Will claims that we must abide by test results and only those test results...Is he serious?  Don't tell me that Will has conveniently forgotten everything that he learned about incentives now that he is almost  a baseball insider?

Test results?  Okay, who administers them and how frequently do they test during the off-season, during season, and how many players are subject to testing, i.e., what is the maximum number?  Please tell us, Will...

There are a multitde of ways to game the system based on the testing paramaters...

Secondly, look more carefully at the incentives, Will, if one does not cheat it could cost one the advantage needed to keep a roster spot.  Let's see, MLB minimum of $350+ grrrrr..vs. Arbys?  It's pretty pathetic to argue that we can only look at the test results, geeze, the entire Union has a strong incentive to cheat--they get fabulously rich.  This is why the presumption of guilt reigns as reasonable...

And it's a dynamic game, i.e., as MLB tests, the cheaters then adapt, the tests adapt very slowly and under Union protest and then the cheaters adapt, it goes back and forth, but the incentive is clearly to cheat.

Furthermore, the Union protects cheaters and the baseball culture protects cheaters.

Reading Will's column reminded me of when I read Bill James writing about Pete rose and how there was "no evidence" that Rose bet on baseball.  Excuse me Mr. James, but anyone who actually read the Dowd report could see the mountain of circumstancial evidence against Rose for which all Rose could reply was "they are liars"...Just as bookies don't send monthly billing statements in the mail certified, neither do the drug cheaters filim each other shooting up or take it in the on-deck circle...

What does Will want to explain away next?  Have to keep those press credentials granted...

by DudeVf1 on Jun 13, 2006 1:14 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Affidavit
After readin the statement, it seems that Grimsley is in some very hot water.  If he has any physical evidence linking other players, then it's likely just a matter of time before this starts spinning out of the control of Selig and Fehr...

I'd rather get back to talking Cubs baseball, there's nothing more to say about Grimsley and it isn'y useful to know who is speculating about who...

Are Mark Prior's calf muscles getting smaller these days?

by DudeVf1 on Jun 13, 2006 2:15 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Smoke'n' topic Al
I applaud all contributers to the thread. Many if most ideas and angles have been discussed about the topic.

One thing I would suggest that baseball does is to work with the players union and give all players named or suspected a "free pass". Get these players to come forward with no possibility of legal action and help them clean up the game. Like hiring a reformed criminal to set up a security system. Give these players an open forum to clean up the game of baseball.

HGH was not illegal nor was Steroids. So there cannot be a retoactive punishment for Bond, Big Mac or Sosa (all of which never tested positive to the best of my knowledge).

Get the players union and MLB on ther same side to clean up the game. This would create an honesty PR for the baseball and fans would respect that. At least I would respect that.

Jason Giambi came forward and applogised for doing "something" wrong, but never admitted anything. It was a half hearted effort that didn't ring true. A better effort by all involved must be made or baseball will be ruined forever.

I say clean house now, get players to come forward now and then inact a testing that if positive then your out of baseball.

Get all parties to slam the door in this topic so the game can move forward!  

Cleverly Disguised as a Responsible Adult

by Scott G F on Jun 13, 2006 7:39 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Bleed Cubbie Blue, the Chicago Cubs blog for the SB Nation, created on February 9, 2005 by Al Yellon
Start posting about the Cubs »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

66103_small
The Ordinary Wizarding Levels of Milton Bradley & the 2009 Chicago Cubs
Chicagocubs1914_small
OT: Big-Ten, Vista-Demolition, Bad-News-Bears, Anything-Goes-on-a-Weekend Game Thread
Jake_fox_small
Cubs Should Go After Rich Hill
Chicagocubs1914_small
Last Out to First Pitch – The 2009-10 Offseason IT'S HAPPENING!!!??? Contest
Small
More From the Cubs in Winter Ball

Recent FanPosts

Small
yet another milton rumor
Fukudome_bleachers_small
The Top 10 Cubs Games of 2009
Sandberg94home_small
An argument for Mike Cameron
P272649reg_small
OT: How will the Big Ten wind up and who goes where?
Small
Should we trade him, or should we not?
Madduxflag_small
Starlin Castro Vitters etc LIVE Sat night
Helmet_small
Az Fall League Cubs
4167bqf31ml
Five tool player available!

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recommended FanShots

Gomez to drink your Brew, Hardy to eat your Twinkie
BP interviews Sam Fuld. Great read!
Who was the best MLB player born on your birthday?
Gary Matthews Jr.

Recent FanShots

Victor Zambrano's mother kidnapped in Venezuela
Cubs GM Jim Hendry says Milton Bradley may be back in 2010, and called the outfielder's '09 season a "major hiccup"
Bradley 3 Way-Trade????
This ought to end any MB for Wells talk...
The incongruity of our perceptions and probabilities
SC takes some BP before this past weekend's AFL RSG.
Happy Birthday, Al!
Chicago Cubs Headlines for Monday (Chicago Now)
Not a rumor, Bruce Miles speculates on a Bradley trade with good return
OT: Lidge to have surgery

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

It Is Only...

Cubs By The Numbers

Cubs By The Numbers is a history of the ballclub by uniform number, but the biographies help trace the history of our beloved team in a new way. For everyone who's a Cubs fan, anyone who ever wore the uniform is like family. Cubs By The Numbers reintroduces readers to some of their long-lost ancestors, even ones they think they already know.

Click here to order your copy, available now!

SPONSORS

Recent Stories in Ticket Exchanges

Yelloncard_small
Ticket Exchanges: Cubs Convention 2010
Yelloncard_small
Ticket Exchanges: General 2009 Ticket Exchange
Yelloncard_small
Ticket Exchanges: September 29-October 4 Homestand

Managing Editor

Yelloncard_small Al

Editorial Cartoonist

Toonmike_small toonmike

Contributors

Dsc_0139_small holy mackerel

100px-boisehawkscaplogo_small Josh77

Small shawndgoldman