Rushing To Judgment
This post is about the current steroid/HGH controversy involving now-former major league pitcher Jason Grimsley.
And it likely is going to piss some of you off, so I would like to ask you to read it ALL carefully before you comment.
Last Thursday, Will Leitch, proprietor of the terrific Deadspin blog, claimed that he had some of the names named in the Grimsley affidavit. And the key name revealed was Chris Mihlfeld, a former trainer for the Kansas City Royals who has also been the personal trainer for Albert Pujols (as well as Mike Sweeney of the Royals) for many years.
It appears that this claim was false, according to the Kansas City Star:
And, Mihlfeld had this to say about Pujols:
No doubt you have seen the blaring headlines and angst that has come out since then; the implication made, of course, is that since Mihlfeld was named as supplying Grimsley with HGH, then he must, since he is Pujols' personal trainer, have supplied Pujols with HGH or other illegal drugs also -- therefore Pujols, who has had a totally clean reputation up to now, must be dirty along with so many other ballplayers.
Have no doubt: there are many, many ballplayers who are using illegal performance-enhancing drugs, likely many more than we have ever imagined up to now. But the leap that many in the blogosphere and the MSM took, assuming Pujols is dirty because of this claim, caused a bigger furor than the original post. Deadspin, seeing the furor its post raised last Thursday, had to clarify:
- There is no claim that Albert Pujols has taken HGH.
- There is no claim that Mihlfeld was in any way a distributor of HGH, or steroids.
- There is a source -- whose confidence has always been rated at "80 percent" -- who says Mihlfeld's name is in the report. Mihlfeld has denied this, and we, as always, hope he's right. As anyone who has ever read this site knows, Albert Pujols is our favorite player. We own four different pieces of merchandise with his name on it. We are out to get no one, least of all him.
EIGHTY PERCENT? Leitch may not have made those claims, but he sure implied them in his original post. And as a result there is a furor that has caused, among other things, the highly regarded CCD at 1060west to post the following scathing critique of the St. Louis media for defending Pujols:
OK, let's go see one of those "more intelligent baseball people", the greatly respected Will Carroll of Baseball Prospectus, has to say about all of this:
We just cannot jump to conclusions. We must remain grounded in fact and science rather than wild speculation. The truth is bad enough and getting worse. (Emphasis added)
Will Carroll is exactly right. Maybe Albert Pujols IS dirty. But we do not know that yet. What all this flap is based on, at this writing, is guesswork as to one redacted name on a FBI agent's affidavit -- and that person has been specifically told by Jason Grimsley AND his attorney, who presumably have seen this affidavit, that his name was NOT on it -- rather than hard facts. All of us must calm down and let this story unfold. We have only the very beginnings of it. Here is a reasoned column by Gordon Edes of the Boston Globe examining the entire issue and asking, among other things:
But with HGH now openly in play, baseball no longer has the luxury of saying that there is no adequate test and therefore it is powerless to do anything. Blood testing appears inevitable, despite the debate over whether a sufficiently accurate test has been developed. Short of that, baseball may have to listen to those who advocate that blood samples be taken and stored until a trustworthy test is in place, that the threat of exposure down the road will act as a sufficient deterrent.
It took until I read "Game Of Shadows", meticulously researched and with damning details, until I absolutely, positively believed -- which I do -- that Barry Bonds is dirty. Did I suspect it for years beforehand? Sure I did. Is it possible that Albert Pujols, and many others, are also dirty? Sure it is. Does it require a lot more in-depth investigation, by MLB (though I wouldn't put too much stock into how deep they really want to dig), the FBI, and Congress, which almost certainly is going to want to get involved? Absolutely.
Show me the proof. Here are some reactions to all this from Cardinal fans, which, believe it or not, strike me as quite reasonable.
The bottom line of all this isn't just to figure out whether Albert Pujols, who has been respected as a player who put up his great numbers without any enhancements, is in fact clean or not.
It's to learn whether or not a respected blogger, Will Leitch, who broke this news last week and had it picked up by quite a bit of the MSM, can trust his sources and go with a story that turns out to be true. If the Chris Mihlfeld story turns out to be false, that not only damages Deadspin, but all of us in the blogosphere who have -- myself included -- broken news before the MSM could get it. Will Leitch says he trusts his source -- but only "80%". That's not good enough. Bloggers have worked very hard to gain respect in the online world. I'd hate to see that destroyed by something this big turning out to be a big "never mind".
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103 comments
Comments
Well stated Al
The facts will be what they are, what that is remains to be seen.
Either way Baseball losses!!!!
by Scott G F on Jun 12, 2006 8:29 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It will be interesting
by indytaz on Jun 12, 2006 8:36 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Well said....
As for what the MLBPA will do, I think they will not have the opportunity to act. I believe Congress will implement Olympic drug testing on all American sports. The nuclear option is here.
by timeforachange on Jun 12, 2006 8:50 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Off Subject
by MO Cubs Fan on Jun 12, 2006 8:59 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't, unfortunately...
by Al on Jun 12, 2006 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I ordered that shirt as soon as I saw it
I must say, the orange design on navy shirt does look good.
by JD on Jun 12, 2006 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
by MO Cubs Fan on Jun 12, 2006 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe
by indytaz on Jun 12, 2006 9:41 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Congress' Involvement is Worthless
Congress' involvement is only about one thing: getting on TV for an issue with zero political downside. Who cares about abridging the rights of spoiled pampered megamillionaires? This issue is super easy to be on the "right" side of, and it makes these Washington vultures look like superheroes standing up to comic book archvillians.
Joe asks: Are Congress' constituents screaming for them to put the hammer down on the issue? Of coruse not -- their time would be better spent handling the real issues that affect us every day. But no one is really going to complain, not with the columnists greasing the skids by lauding the congressmen's involvement.
MLB welcomes it, as well -- the more Congress gets involved, the more gravitas the issue has, and the easier it will be to push the players back on their heels when the CBA is finally negotiated in earnest.
Ah, it's all very sweet, isn't it?
by chasfh on Jun 12, 2006 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about, say, the NFL?
Perhaps I don't fully understand the policies in each professional league, but it seems MLB is taking the full brunt of criticism from those looking to point fingers at allegedly tainted athletes. Isn't it possible that the NFL is tainted with HGH users as well? Is baseball is getting slammed more than other leagues just because they are going further in cleaning up this problem?
by Richie Hebner 18 on Jun 12, 2006 10:05 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
HGH
The NFL does not ban amphetamines.
While WADA claims to have a test for HGH, there is much dispute within the drug testing community on the reliability of that test. Despite testing for HGH at the Athens and Turin Games, no athlete tested positive for HGH, which is seen as more of an indictment of the test than an indication that all athletes are clean of the stuff.
by Josh77 on Jun 12, 2006 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent Post!
The greater issue at hand is the pathetic lack of courage from anyone in a position of authority within the sport and most especially the players and managers/coaches. Ozzie Guillen's comments were deplorable on this matter. If I were the owner of the Sox he would have been fired about 10 seconds after making such closeminded, bullying, ass-hat remarks. The sad thing is that Ozzie's view is the norm in baseball.
The truth is that the sport if loaded with cheaters and protects cheaters and values cover-up and covering butts more than anything.
I enjoy the actual sport of playing baseball. I enjoy watching it and analyzing the game. Unfortunately, the people who play the sport and manage it are by and large a cowardly bunch who prefer gravy training their huge money contracts and will do absolutely anything to continue to extract such money from the game.
It is nit "unfortunate" that Albert gets thrown in with cheaters. It is totally reasonable and predictable because the sport wants it that way, his fellow cheaters want it that way, his manager wants it that way, his ownership wants it that way, and ultimately Albert, through his inactions wants it that way.
It's much easier to be complacent and takes the money. Everyone cheats and everyone takes the omney...
Every single player, dirty or clean deserves the stain because none will stand up to the punk-ass dunderheads like Ozzie Guillen who encourage cheating and delight in it...they glorify the courrupt and only see "ratting someone" as bad. They'd fit nicely in Mike Noreth's world, where the corrupt, political hacks, and wise guys are heroes and only those who tell the truth are villified...they sicken me.
by DudeVf1 on Jun 12, 2006 10:06 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
n/t
will you still be saying that if there were allegations against D-Lee?
by flyball on Jun 12, 2006 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely!
It is interesting to me how Juan Pierre suddenly cannot hit much and the huge drop off started with testing. But again, this is rumor mongering...
The game is totally stained, if your clean and you don't want the stain then stand up to the jerks like Ozzie and the players who are dirty...Everyone takes the money and perhaps not everyone, but darn closer to everyone takes the drugs...
by DudeVf1 on Jun 12, 2006 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
THANK YOU.
by elscorcho0682 on Jun 12, 2006 10:08 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Mihlfeld
Nothing in this statement suggests Albert isn't taking steroids or HGH, just not DURING THE SEASON.
THESE ATHLETES HAVE DONE NOTHING TO WARRANT AGAINST PRE-JUDGMENT. UNTIL SOME OF THEM STEPUP AND ADMIT THIER GUILT OR SPEAK OUT AGAINST THEIR FELLOW BALLPLAYERS THEN THIS RUSH TO JUDGMENT IS GOING TO CONTINUE. I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH CCD'S TAKE ON THIS TOPIC.
by cubfan4life on Jun 12, 2006 10:13 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The two things are not related.
But until I see proof that Albert Pujols, for example, actually IS one, instead of idle speculation and guilt by association because someone THOUGHT they knew a redacted name on an affidavit, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
Rushing to judgment is ALWAYS wrong. Further, if Deadspin winds up being wrong about this -- and it appears that they are -- that puts a stain on all bloggers who are trying to establish credibility for this medium.
by Al on Jun 12, 2006 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The affidavit..
I am not saying that Pujols or any/all of Mihlfeld's clients have taken steroids. But it certainly (and justifiably) puts them all under a microscope.
by Will23 on Jun 12, 2006 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It absolutely is a leap...
What you are proposing above is nothing more than guilt by association.
It MAY turn out to be true. But the leap you are taking is not backed up by ANY evidence.
That's all I'm saying -- just DON'T rush to judgment.
by Al on Jun 12, 2006 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is more of a leap..
by Will23 on Jun 12, 2006 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Until
by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Jun 12, 2006 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
Welcome to the Star Chamber.
by Josh77 on Jun 12, 2006 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Non-realistically speaking
Not to say that they all should be suspects until they change the policy, but it certainly would help.
by elscorcho0682 on Jun 12, 2006 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They don't have to prove any of this...
The media coverage is what it is, when you are Pujols level of star you live in a fishbowl...
But more to your point, the players must actively promote stringent random testing during and off-season. This is what Albert or any other clean player must get on their horse and cry for...But they have not and even schilling back pedaled quickly. Why? Because the cheating is so pervasive that life in the locker room will become miserable for the dreaded "rat". Pujols hitting well now in his prime doesn't make me jump to the conclusion that he is on drugs...But the pathetic testing procedures of MLB makes me think it is plausible for many to cheat, including him. Now if he were 35 and doing this then yes, only the whores for "logic" would claim that he wasn't on drugs because we have no real "proof". The silliy thing about Bonds is that no one, in any majore professional sport has ever increased their production at that rate at that age, never...It's fantasy land to give that guy and Sosa and McGwire the benefit of doubt...The players bring this upon themselves because they prefer an environment that condones cheating...
I'd have no problem with everyone coming out and saying we all cheat so no one has an unfair advantage, that's awesome, come out and admit it. I don't care what happens to these guys when their hearts explode 5 years after baseball, but if they want to be tough guys about then come out and admit what you are doing...Make the Commissioner suspend 80% of the active players, wouldn't that be a great show of Union solidarity?
by DudeVf1 on Jun 13, 2006 1:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damn
:(
by cubbiejulie on Jun 12, 2006 10:34 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I would just like to add,
There, I said it. Something nice about someone on the Cards. Don't expect to EVER hear it out of my mouth again.
by cubbiejulie on Jun 12, 2006 10:49 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Ok, ok.
Then how do you explain...
THIS!!!!!!
http://niketown.nike.com/niketown/media/3d/nikepro/swf/wallpapers/wallpaper_pujols_1024x768.jpg
This is Albert Pujols... this is Pujols on a steroids that give you a wooden face.
Yeah, I rest my case....
by Sarah Hope on Jun 12, 2006 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
nice.
by elscorcho0682 on Jun 12, 2006 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
al, my impression of the 1060 west post was...
and that chicago fans and media cannot crow too loudly, as sosa was never held up for scrutiny until very very late in his stay in chicago.
i may have missed out here; if so, please disregard.
by dc60123 on Jun 12, 2006 11:00 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
No one's saying ...
All I'm saying is that Pujols shouldn't be automatically assumed to be guilty, because of his association with Chris Mihlfeld -- since Mihlfeld apparently was NOT named in the affidavit.
by Al on Jun 12, 2006 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't assuming guilt Al,
by ccd on Jun 12, 2006 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're entitled to your opinion...
Don't rush to judgment.
by Al on Jun 12, 2006 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is it....
Whether Pujols is guilty or innocent, it obviously does not matter. He is guilty by association due to how this situation was handled.
I would be curious to see how everyone here would respond if there were allegations/ rumors about DLee?
by timeforachange on Jun 12, 2006 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If DLee..
by Will23 on Jun 12, 2006 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't....
by timeforachange on Jun 12, 2006 7:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
chiming in....some thoughts to consider
Before I go on few of you have ever really competed at a higher competitive level, I did and have friends and acquaintances who went to the highest. The singular dedication to reach that point is above simply talent or even brains, it is making the absolute most (to the smallest nano degree) of all you have to beat out the literally thousands of also-rans to the next level. My niece is now a Olympic hopeful and she has leagues to go to move just to that qualifying level and then well competing in the arena is another enormous step, let alone being successful at that level.
All that, the temptation is without question, and I tend to believe that a significant number to almost a majority of MLB players will have experimented with "doping" at some time.
Sandburg was the epiphany of the player in the '80's, he hit for power, average, had speed, defense and played smart. Bonds was almost the heir apparent to that model. I recalled how good he was in Pittsburgh. Then we now know what happened after Sosa/McGwire. Sosa is the other example, a good promising player, 30HR's good field, arm, speed then he bulked up and became a gladiator. Maddux is the other example, the gile, deft pitching pitcher, who dominated the '90's with his command. Clemens was the other dominator, power and more power and the perfect bulked up body.
You can go through the roster rolls and see body after body, player who was almost marginal and then suddenly a big year.
The Olympians have gained their stuff by fooling the tests and still some got caught, now what would you think about a million dollar sport without tests.
MLB.
by Ivy Walls on Jun 12, 2006 11:03 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Common sense, Al,
Whether there is proof or not really doesn't matter. You've already convicted Bonds without proof as we've all done. At least with regards to Bonds I can say this...the guy got to the ML level and became a hall of famer without the use of PEDs.
Seriously, Al, not sure if you have some lovefest with Albert or not, but you defending him because there is no proof is laughable. The last thing required in convicting somebody of using PEDs is facts these days and you're a part of that group.
Can't you just look at Pujols and say to yourself, well, you know what, normal human beings don't look like that. They aren't that big. It's the 2nd easiest open and shut case regarding steroid/PED use in sports. Bonds being the easiest.
Don't even give me this "we need to be patient" crap. We're never going to know for absolute certain who took them. All we have is our common sense. Use it.
by Maddog on Jun 12, 2006 11:18 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Uhh
You mean normal human beings that don't lift weights as part of their job? Just pointing at everyone who has large muscles and saying they use HGH is ignorant.
Also for the record Performance Enhancing Drug is too vague. There are plenty of performance enhancing drugs that athletes take that are legal. I work with multiple people who run marathons regularly and they take all sorts of legal performance enhancing drugs that they buy at health food stores etc...
Just from the linked article you see Pujols drank protein shakes until he started getting paranoid that something illegal could be in them.
Just because a daily life of an internet troll doesn't yield the Adonis physique doesn't mean it's not possible to achieve without perscription medication....
by JonH on Jun 12, 2006 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look...
Most of my family (my brother and my father especially) also work out regularly. Most of my friends spend more time in a gym on any given day than most people do in their lifetime.
I've been around people who dope their way through it and I've been around people who do it the "right" way.
You cannot mistake someone who doped with someone who didn't. Don't even begin to try and tell me you can. The signs are so obvious that my 8 year old nephew can spot the dopers in an instant.
Albert Pujols, my friend, is a doper. That simple.
I could care less if he is or if he isn't. I don't buy into this whole "integrity of the game" bullshit that some do. It's nonsense. In a game full of cheaters, and yes, nearly every single player takes something to improve their performance, Albert Pujols is the best. Barry Bonds is one of the greatest in the game's history. If you want to separate the stats cheaters put up, that's up to you, but since we'll never be provided a shred of scientific data that proves or disproves that taking PEDs significantly improves one's game I'll choose to not differentiate.
The game...sport in general...are so dirty it's not even funny.
by Maddog on Jun 12, 2006 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Furthermore,
by Maddog on Jun 12, 2006 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll admit it
That being said, I take exception with your assumption that people don't give a rat's ass about the health of the players. My biggest problem with steroids is that kids see it, start using, and get hurt.
A good friend of mine died trying to bulk up for baseball with steroids, ok? You know why? Because he saw that players were getting bigger and succeeding with them. This was before those ads with the shrinking basketballs, or before people really knew how this stuff worked. We can debate all day about athletes' role as role model, but like it or not, they're being emulated. You pay someone millions of dollars to play a game for six months, stuff like that isn't too much to ask.
Listen. I don't have a problem with steroids because it's cheating. Baseball is has been a cheater's game as long as it's been around. I don't have a problem with it because it's breaking records.
I have a problem with steroids because they cause the game to be played in a way that I don't like. The long ball is big now, and I say that this explosion of homeruns has taken a lot away from the game. We've all seen pictures of Bonds in his Pittsburgh days - most of us are old enough to remember seeing him play then. He was a five-tool player. He was an arrogant jerk, but he was an athlete, a virtual HOF lock.
Fast forward to today. Bonds, thanks to steroids, has become nothing more than a hulking beast who limps to the plate and blasts baseballs 400 feet. He can't run. He can't field. He can't throw.
Compare the two Bondses, and realize that not only will the latter Bonds be remembered more than the former, but he will probably be viewed as superior.
That's what hurts.
by elscorcho0682 on Jun 12, 2006 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually
by bh714 on Jun 12, 2006 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
True.
by Maddog on Jun 12, 2006 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Show me the proof...
Then I'll believe.
by Al on Jun 12, 2006 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've convicted Bonds without proof?
All I'm saying, as the headline for this post states, is that we should not rush to judgment because Pujols is connected to someone who MIGHT be involved as a result of hearing, through a blog post that is likely wrong, that the "connected someone" was NOT named where the post said he was.
That's all.
by Al on Jun 12, 2006 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't rush to judgment.
Al, if you don't think being associated with this guy means anything at all, you're not paying attention. People don't hire so and so to be their personal trainer because they had success giving drugs to a player who turned out to have a decent career. If they didn't want the illegal stuff they'd go find a trainer who actually was clean. Give me a break with this unsubstantiated report/rumor stuff. I'm not trying to prove to you he took them.
I could care less if he did. It means absolutely nothing to me whether or not Pujols or anybody else took steroids. It's his own decision. I will not look at him any differently when that undeniable proof finally comes out as I did the very first time I saw the guy play. PEDs or not, he's the best player in the game. And my opinion of that isn't going to change whether he took PEDs or not.
I don't look at stats and try to discern who took what and when they may have taken them. I simply do not care. Give me one shed of proof that steroids, amphetamines, HGH or any other PED significantly improves how a person plays this game. You can't do it. There are many more guys whose body's break down at the age of 25 and 26 because of steroid use than there are examples of Barry Bonds.
"Rush to judgment?" What? Aren't you the one talking about how Bonds stats mean nothing though you don't have a single piece of evidence that supports that you believe his numbers are steroid-inflated? Talk about hypocritical. This is, as i've said for 3 or 4 years now, about Barry Bonds and nothing else. As long as you can rush to judgment on Bonds you're fine. And I don't mean whether or not he took steroids. He obviously did. It's as obvious now with the information you've read as it was 6 years ago and you could tell just by looking at him and didn't have to pay $25 to be told something you already knew. Normal human beings don't look like that.
Please, stop with this "rush to judgment" stuff. You weren't the first to do so with Bonds regarding his stats and you won't be the last, but you were one of them despite having no statistical data to back up your claim. None! And you know what? You never will. Until numerous Player A's play w/out PEDs for a period and then play with PEDs you have not one shred of evidence to support your claims. I can easily argue that what Bonds took broke his body down more so than if he had not taken them. It has happened with player after player after player. Players as young as 25 or 26 have had their knees and back go to hell because of steroid abuse. The negative impact of steroids are equal to or greater than the positive impact and that is a fact. It's not one that you want to hear because you want this to be about Bonds and sadly, I understand. The guy is an asshole.
Finally, what's proof for you may be different than what I need. Just like the proof you need to "prove" Bonds' stats are inflated, I use the same criteria to prove Pujols took PEDs. The kind of proof that is backed by not one shred of evidence.
by Maddog on Jun 12, 2006 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Will Leitch
is a classless loser. I still remember his juvenile celebrations of the Cubs' 2003 NLCS loss on The Black Table. He can't write to save his life either.
by salparadise23 on Jun 12, 2006 11:55 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
funny
by Slaky311 on Jun 12, 2006 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Both MSM and bloggers can be wrong sometimes
by goldstj2 on Jun 12, 2006 12:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I actually believed
by MikeJ on Jun 12, 2006 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Alright guys.
Well, I'm not really supposed to share this with anyone, but a "friend" of mine in the business shared that they had obtained photos of Pujols before he hit the majors.
Folks, it's not pretty.
http://www.mjsite.com/old/23.jpg
by Sarah Hope on Jun 12, 2006 12:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
HAHAHAHA
by elscorcho0682 on Jun 12, 2006 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wrigley Scoreboard
Dear editor,
How self-serving of the Tribune to feature an article (and a front-page teaser) on Monday, June 12, promoting the replacement of Wrigley Field's beloved scoreboard with a video screen. Obviously, a video screen would be a far more effective vehicle for advertising, which I'm sure is at the root of the Tribune's little idea. None of this surprises me considering the Tribune's nearly quarter-century history of assaulting Cub fans with ads, starting back in the early 1980s when Budweiser ads were placed under the scoreboard and continuing through the present, when fans in the "Bud-Light" bleachers are subject to a relentless barrage of advertisments blasted at them over the public address system during batting practice. At $35 or thereabouts for an average ticket, isn't the Tribune making enough money on the Cubs already, or does the company believe that the need to satisfy shareholders trumps its responsiblity to keep tradition alive at Wrigley?
by danimal15 on Jun 12, 2006 1:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
There is quite a bit of discussion...
by Al on Jun 12, 2006 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of Witch Hunts
Joe Sheehan wrote a nice article about all this today as Baseball Prospectus, but unfortunately it's subscription-only.
But one of Sheehan's many points is that nobody gives a rat's ass about Jason Grimsley or Curtis Leskanic. It's Pujols' (or Bonds or Sosa or Rodriguez's) blood they want. Nobody has shunned Derrick Turnbow for having a positive steriod test. No one is throwing needles at Ryan Franklin. Juan Rincon isn't being hauled before Congress. These guys have actual positive steroid tests with almost no ill effects. This is about "getting" the big names.
by Josh77 on Jun 12, 2006 1:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Because
by cubbiejulie on Jun 12, 2006 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
At least you're honest.
by Maddog on Jun 12, 2006 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Deadspin
I suppose that means 80%, but it's a little bit different, don't you think? I have no clue who his source was, but let's use this example. Let's say Will's tip was a good friend of a secretary in MLB's office, and the secretary saw the affadavit and the names. Is the tip as reliable as Bud Selig himself? Nope, it's probably an 8 of 10, though. And besides, all he did in regards to Pujols is say that the guy named has worked closely with Pujols. Nothing more, nothing less. You can speculate all you want. Should he have withheld this info? Maybe, but that wouldn't be a very interesting post, would it.
Furthermore, you're assuming that the name's not on it because the guy himself (mihlfid or whatever) said he wasn't, and he's never dealt/acquired/distributed/ steroids, period. Ask Rafael Palmeiro, that doesn't mean anything.
I have no idea if Pujols did steroids, I'm just saying we can't assume he's clean. Nor can we assume ANYONE who's played in the past 15 years is clean. Period. :)
by MikeJ on Jun 12, 2006 2:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't care what anyone says
by elscorcho0682 on Jun 12, 2006 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely, Will Leitch said 80%.
Not sure how you can parse that as "not saying 80%".
I'm not making ANY assumptions, because at this time not a single person has brought forward proof of a single name that's on the FBI affidavit, other than the name Jason Grimsley. Every other name on it is redacted.
Show me the proof.
by Al on Jun 12, 2006 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
Of course I don't have proof. Want some second-hand proof? I rate this at 50% (might be right, might be wrong.)
Dan Patrick said on Thursday's shows that he knows 3 of the names, but he wouldn't reveal them. He said 2 of them were complete shockers. Keith Olberman was on that show. I'm going to assume that Patrick shared his info with his long-time buddy/co-host. After Deadspin revealed the names, Oblerman went on his MSNBC show, quoting Deadspin's story about the trainer and the Pujols connection. It is my feeling that Olberman knew the names, but didn't want to reveal them until somebody else did. That way, if the names were wrong, he wouldn't look stupid. This is really just connecting some dots with a pencil, but it makes sense if you think about it.
Either way, and this is the point I failed to make in my first comment: I don't think Deadspin's report reflects badly on bloggers in the MSM's eyes. MSM already thinks that bloggers are a bunch of worthless hacks anyways. It might be slightly more amunition for MSM, but that's about it.
Furthermore, and this might not be obvious to everybody. Deadspin is owned by Gawker Media, a big media company. Will is just the writer, a paid employee.
by MikeJ on Jun 12, 2006 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your point about Deadspin...
Anyway, your comments about Patrick and Olbermann are the same thing that Leitch did -- basing things on rumors and guesswork.
SHOW ME THE NAMES. Until then it could be anyone's name under there.
"Complete shockers"? OK, shock me. Prove it.
by Al on Jun 12, 2006 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I'll just...
We don't know anything yet.
by MikeJ on Jun 12, 2006 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That post is fair...
You choose to believe Will. I choose to believe the FACTS, when I know them, and not before.
by Al on Jun 12, 2006 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe it to a degree
by MikeJ on Jun 12, 2006 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's go back to the beginning, shall we?
The FACT is that Mihlfeld was TOLD by Grimsley AND his attorney that he is NOT in the affidavit.
Believe what you will; I'll wait for the facts. Comparing it to what you read on mlbtraderumors.com is just silly.
by Al on Jun 12, 2006 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, Al
by helen on Jun 13, 2006 1:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I tire of the "Guilt by Association"
Rumor mongering is classless and base practice and should be rooted out of journalism and left for the checkout aisle tabloids.
by stelmodad on Jun 12, 2006 2:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Grimsely suspended for 50 games
I'm confused.
by cubbiejulie on Jun 12, 2006 4:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
According to...
It's meaningless, since he's 38, sucked this year, and no one's going to sign him anyway. Interesting statement from the above-linked article:
"It's kind of like giving a speeding ticket to a guy that got killed in a car wreck," he said.
by Al on Jun 12, 2006 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting though
by cubbiejulie on Jun 12, 2006 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd say...
by Al on Jun 12, 2006 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely
Drunken confession in a bar is one thing, but what about Barry Bonds' alleged confession to his girlfriend? What if she swore to the confession under oath? Would that be enough?
See where I'm going with this?
by cubbiejulie on Jun 12, 2006 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is exactly the reason..
by Al on Jun 12, 2006 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think receiving a package
by cubsbak on Jun 12, 2006 7:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it's Knoblauch
by Matt Allison on Jun 12, 2006 4:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Maddog is right
Pujols was passed over 300 times in the draft before being taken by the Cardinals and 18 months later was one of the best hitters in MLB. Does anyone really think so many people (both gifted professionals and scouts for the Cubs) could be wrong that many times on a guy who would be murdering major league pitching less than two years later?
All that said, until there's definite proof, you can't do a damn thing about it.
by TR on Jun 12, 2006 4:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Forget the affidavit..
Enter Pujols - also "trained" by Milhfeld, who was once described as "pear shaped" and "not even the best player on his team" while at JuCo. Pujols is taken 402nd overall in the 1999 draft by the Cards, while under the wing of Milhfeld.
He then goes on to Rookie of the Year('01) and MVP('05) honors, while putting up numbers that are similar to the likes of Frank Robinson, Joe DiMaggio, Hank Aaron and Jimmie Foxx. And he is now the absolute premiere, pitch-around position player in all of MLB.
Old cliche -- where there's smoke, there's fire.
If your definition of proof is being caught in the act, then he (and Bonds) are not guilty.
But if your definition of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt, then fasten your seat belt. There just simply isn't as much circumstantial evidence with Pujols (or any other Milhfeld client) as there is with Bonds, but it's still early.
by Will23 on Jun 12, 2006 6:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Show me...
There is circumstantial evidence, I will grant you. And there is no doubt that baseball MUST clean up its act; the affidavit itself proves that.
But until names are actually named in public, I will reserve judgment.
by Al on Jun 12, 2006 7:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too Many Flawed Arguements
To those that are willing to drop the executioner's axe: It's about cheating, stupid. It's not about whether the drugs are legal or illegal (unless you're talking about MLB rules. It's not about how many have done it in other sports or about a passion for numbers or any of that.
Opinions are okay. Everyone is entitled to them but they should be based on rational thought, not emotion. Unfortunately, baseball feeds on emotion.
The apparent groundswell of anger that presupposes anyone (yes, even Bonds) without a proper hearing (either through criminal, civil, or other channels acceptable as rendering some semblance of truth--and hearsay surely isn't one of them) is a path that is simply devoid of real thought.
This rush to condemnation reminds me of a lynch mob. Word gets out and everyone begins to feed on everyone else's anger and hate and before you know it an innocent person is strung up from a tree. All I can see is angry villagers storming into the town square with torches and pitchforks, whipped into a frenzy by some righteous souls who just aren't willing to wait for the circuit judge to come to town because they know better.
Yes, it is possible the game we love has been completely despoiled by the purveyors of "whatever it takes."
I for one will withold my judgement until after the judge gets to town, the jury is selected, and the witnesses come forth. Until then, it ain't nothing but smoke; a phantom; it ain't there; it doesn't exist.
Do I mean to imply we should put our heads in the sand? Of course not. Reason tells me that evidence is building and that evidence points to the need for further action. I don't deny the evidence but, on-the-other-hand, I don't jump to the conclusions the lynch mob does.
Al is the poor sheriff who only has a drunk and a feeble old man at his side (I could easily fit into both of those roles) to protect the accused from the angry mob.
Think what you will, you are all entitled to, but for the love of the game, be patient, enjoy the performances of Albert Puljols, et.al., because if they're clean (no, I don't think Bonds is clean--but I'm willing to wait for a verdict from a proper venue) you will all have wasted a lot of bile and beer and missed a lot of good baseball.
by Luigi on Jun 12, 2006 7:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
And if they're dirty
Baseball (and the union) seem to have very little interest in rooting out the drug problem. It took Congress getting involved for baseball to even pretend to care. And right now, the feds are out in front on this, not MLB.
Thus, us fans are left to speculate about who's clean and who's dirty. That's just the way it is. And those of us who suspect that Pujols is using HGH based on circumstantial evidence are entitled to our opinions because baseball doesn't test for it.
So it seems to me the real finger should be pointed at baseball, not the fans who speculate based on limited evidence. Because sppeculation is all we're really left to do since baseball doesn't test for this stuff. It's a travesty.
by cubsbak on Jun 12, 2006 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're absolutely right...
Again, my point is -- pointing fingers at specific players, based on speculative "evidence", is pointless.
Show me the proof and I'll line up to get baseball cleaned up of the dirty players. I'm already in that line, actually -- I just don't know who to point at yet.
Soon, we will.
by Al on Jun 12, 2006 8:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem...
MLB, MLBPA and ultimately us, the fan, are guilty. We sat there like stooges when Sammy hit 60+ hrs three years in a row. Think about it: No one came close to the Maris record for 40 years and Sammy bests the mark three consecutive seasons. Sammy Sosa, the same player who was a skinny speedster when he came up. We turned a blind eye though and purchased a lot of #21 jersey.
by timeforachange on Jun 12, 2006 8:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baseball
The surge in attendance in MLB is directly related to the home run ball and they know it. No way will MLB go down without a fight. They'll do their best to keep illegal supplements in this game in one way or another.
This game's livelihood, sad as it is, depends on it. And you don't think smarter people than those of us here aren't trying to figure out the best way to keep these drugs in the game even before the next time the MLBPA sits down at the bargaining table?
If MLB has to they'll just allow the players children to piss in the cup for them. You're never going to get these drugs out of the game of baseball.
by Maddog on Jun 12, 2006 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baseball is actually better...
by Imtrejo on Jun 12, 2006 11:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely!
I love a great pitching match-up. One of the greatest things there is, but I even find myself flipping channels while the Cubs are batting in 0-0 game in the 5th inning. Their offense is just boring.
I've never, not once that I can remember, done this prior to this season, but with the Cubs offense and when Z's on the mound games are often 0-0 in the 5th inning and once the Cubs come up i'm turning the channel. I can't handle watching their putrid, pathetic, awful excuse of an offense.
I can't imagine how the people who love those 11-9 games are feeling right now. No way are they buying tickets.
Baseball will suffer because "chicks dig the long ball."
by Maddog on Jun 13, 2006 12:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Turning the Channel
by Imtrejo on Jun 13, 2006 1:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
True, but...
It really is the home runs that got the fans to come out. In 1998 Sosa and McGwire chased history and all of a sudden the game has become more popular than it ever has.
by Maddog on Jun 13, 2006 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't believe it is pointless
I think it's perfectly legitimate to quesiton what Pujols is doing, just like I think it's legitimate to question a lot of guys. Hopefully this speculation will lead to the truth. For example, Joe Borowski lost about 10 mph on his fastball the year they started steroid testing. I believe he was on steroids. I have no way proving this and we'll probably never know the truth, but perhaps somebody will investigate and we can learn more.
Until MLB and MLBPA show a desire to get rid of these steroids, all we can do is speculate. Hopefully the speculation will lead to the truth, which I believe MLB wants swept under the rug. I want to know who is/was on the juice so that, for example, when I explain to my grandkids why Barry Bonds hit more home runs than anyone else I can tell them why.
by cubsbak on Jun 12, 2006 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
listen to Will
the question isn't whether pujols, or bonds, or sosa, mcguire, or TONS of other players juiced, because they all have. the question is how do you deal with it? saying you won't believe until you see a positive drug test is akin to sticking your head in the sand. baseball's drug testing policy is such a farce, MLB has only nailed marginal players, no superstars. do you HONESTLY think that the superstars aren't just as guilty? give me a break, it's because MLB doesn't want to sabotage it's own product. i mean, Jose Canseco and Congress had to freaking get in bed together to even get a crappy policy in place. nobody within MLB, not the owners or GM's or players, and certainly not the commissioner, has ever really been serious about it, because if they were it would have never come to all of this.
by creasybear on Jun 12, 2006 7:50 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You are misinterpreting my comments.
It is absolutely clear from the affidavit that specific current and former players are doing illegal PED's. No question about it.
All I am "not believing" here is the accusation that Albert Pujols is dirty because he is trained by a guy who someone CLAIMED was named in the affidavit -- even though Jason Grimsley's attorney says that trainer is NOT named in the affidavit.
The attorney saw the affidavit. You haven't. I haven't. Will Leitch hasn't.
Yes, MLB has to get a stronger drug testing policy, and NOW, or it will be mandated by Congress. There is no question in my mind that one of those two things WILL happen, and maybe before the 2006 season ends.
All I was saying in the original post -- and that is why I asked everyone to READ IT CAREFULLY FIRST -- was to NOT find anyone guilty by association, when we do NOT know the names named, yet.
by Al on Jun 12, 2006 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What?
I wouldn't believe a single word in this thing. Not one word. Perhaps, by chance, some of it is true, but at least half of it is going to be incorrect. You can bank on that.
And you're willing to accept this affidavit as the all the proof you need?
by Maddog on Jun 12, 2006 10:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
MLB has to get serious
that said, i think the firestorm is a good thing, clearly. and if pujols (for example) turns out to be clean then i'll change my opinion, but like cubsbak said very well, all we've got to go on is speculation because of MLB's garbage policy. and i think some good can ultimately come from mud being thrown around on players, even if some are innocent. if enough fans begin to speculate and become dissatisifed, and even stop going to games, MLB will be hit in the wallet, where it really hurts. and then they will be forced to get serious. either that or Congress will force them. either way, MLB must stop pussyfooting around this issue and finally confront it head on.
by creasybear on Jun 12, 2006 8:22 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Performance and baseball
If steroids and all PEDs don't affect game play, why would all of those pro athletes be doing it? If you like to watch Barry blast the long ball and don't think his abilities are changed by steroids, why do you care that some folks are offended?
I strongly think that the HGH/anabolic steroid concoctions make baseball players better (and athletes in general). Their muscles recover faster. They are stronger. They are quicker in both footspeed and batspeed. I would argue the same thing about amphetamines, but I think their benefit might be less obvious and they have some drawbacks.
The mark of a great hitter used to be that they could wait a split second longer to see the pitch and still get the bathead through the zone and crush it. Batspeed and strength are HUGE changers. A broken bat popup can be a homerun! Guys muscle hits through and over much more often. Groundouts go from routine to screamers.
A cheater is someone who gains unfair advantage over his fellow competitors. Bonds, and by your reasoning, Pujols would be classified as cheaters. Sports is ruined by cheating. Can you win Monopoly by automatically giving yourself $100 everytime it's your turn? Sure. But, it's not Monopoly any more. It's something different.
by Woodstock on Jun 12, 2006 8:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Cheaters are players
Are you making a case for the legalization of such drugs in professional sports or am I just getting the wrong vibe from what you just posted above?
by Luigi on Jun 12, 2006 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're missing the point.
Also, it's believed by some, if not many, that pitchers receive a greater benefit than hitters do. If true, doesn't that put this whole topic into another perspective? Doesn't it make what Bonds did even more impressive if it is indeed the pitchers who benefit the most? Is he still a cheater? yes. But that's not what this is about. It's about the home run record.
There are many, many, many more 24, 25, 26, and 27 year old baseball players whose career ends with injuries that can be directly linked to steroids than there are Barry Bondses.
What does this mean? I don't know. There simply is not enough information to come to any kind of conclusion.
I can argue that steroids have an overall negative impact on the body, which once again puts this debate into a different perspective. I can also argue that the opposite is true.
the truth lies somewhere in between. I provides both positive and negative impacts on the baseball player. More likely than not, the end result gets you right back where you started. Only difference is now you're a cheater.
by Maddog on Jun 12, 2006 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
cheaters
Making all the scary performance enhancers legal would lead to illnesses and fatalities, all for the edge. This would happen lower levels quite a bit. I think people injuring and killing themselves to reach the majors should be stopped.
I don't think that I missed the point. Even with the negative impacts on your body, your specific set of baseball skills will be improved for a period of time. And, even if a PED related injury occurs, when they come back juiced they are still having an unfair advantage. Guys breaking down early only allows more cheaters to come through the game.
by Woodstock on Jun 13, 2006 7:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Al, don't put any blind faith in the affidavit.
There are many jurisdictions in this country where this weak affidavit, which contains many internal contradictions, would not be signed by a magistrate or judge. There are any of hundreds of criminal attorneys that are capable of having any evidence seized pursuant to this affidavit thrown out.
by Reverend Jim Ignatowski on Jun 12, 2006 9:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Will Carroll's Column...
Test results? Okay, who administers them and how frequently do they test during the off-season, during season, and how many players are subject to testing, i.e., what is the maximum number? Please tell us, Will...
There are a multitde of ways to game the system based on the testing paramaters...
Secondly, look more carefully at the incentives, Will, if one does not cheat it could cost one the advantage needed to keep a roster spot. Let's see, MLB minimum of $350+ grrrrr..vs. Arbys? It's pretty pathetic to argue that we can only look at the test results, geeze, the entire Union has a strong incentive to cheat--they get fabulously rich. This is why the presumption of guilt reigns as reasonable...
And it's a dynamic game, i.e., as MLB tests, the cheaters then adapt, the tests adapt very slowly and under Union protest and then the cheaters adapt, it goes back and forth, but the incentive is clearly to cheat.
Furthermore, the Union protects cheaters and the baseball culture protects cheaters.
Reading Will's column reminded me of when I read Bill James writing about Pete rose and how there was "no evidence" that Rose bet on baseball. Excuse me Mr. James, but anyone who actually read the Dowd report could see the mountain of circumstancial evidence against Rose for which all Rose could reply was "they are liars"...Just as bookies don't send monthly billing statements in the mail certified, neither do the drug cheaters filim each other shooting up or take it in the on-deck circle...
What does Will want to explain away next? Have to keep those press credentials granted...
by DudeVf1 on Jun 13, 2006 1:14 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Affidavit
I'd rather get back to talking Cubs baseball, there's nothing more to say about Grimsley and it isn'y useful to know who is speculating about who...
Are Mark Prior's calf muscles getting smaller these days?
by DudeVf1 on Jun 13, 2006 2:15 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Smoke'n' topic Al
One thing I would suggest that baseball does is to work with the players union and give all players named or suspected a "free pass". Get these players to come forward with no possibility of legal action and help them clean up the game. Like hiring a reformed criminal to set up a security system. Give these players an open forum to clean up the game of baseball.
HGH was not illegal nor was Steroids. So there cannot be a retoactive punishment for Bond, Big Mac or Sosa (all of which never tested positive to the best of my knowledge).
Get the players union and MLB on ther same side to clean up the game. This would create an honesty PR for the baseball and fans would respect that. At least I would respect that.
Jason Giambi came forward and applogised for doing "something" wrong, but never admitted anything. It was a half hearted effort that didn't ring true. A better effort by all involved must be made or baseball will be ruined forever.
I say clean house now, get players to come forward now and then inact a testing that if positive then your out of baseball.
Get all parties to slam the door in this topic so the game can move forward!
by Scott G F on Jun 13, 2006 7:39 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

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