Bleed Cubbie Blue: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: Purdue wins Paradise Jam Tournament 73-72

Read Between The Lines...

... and I think you'll see that Dusty Baker is treading on really, really thin ground once this season is over.

I do believe that Jim Hendry will keep his word and not fire Baker before his contract is up. Some of you, I know, think this is a bad thing, that it may be damaging the progress of players like Matt Murton, Ronny Cedeno and Ryan Theriot, but that can be reversed -- there are, after all, only 45 games left.

I say "read between the lines" because of some of the bizarre words coming out of Baker's mouth, quoted in this Paul Sullivan article in today's Tribune. Baker said, among other things:

"You've got to treat yourself better. You've got to eat better. You've got relieve the stress. You've got to drink less, you've got to drink more water, you've got to take care of yourself.

"Everything passes. It's very stormy when you're in it, I'm not going to lie to you. I talked to my sister the other day. Not to get biblical, but she said, 'Sometimes God delivers you from the desert, and sometimes he walks with you in the desert.' That kind of put things in perspective to me."

Honestly, I don't know what any of that has to do with winning baseball games. There's certainly nothing wrong with having spirituality in your life -- and I know Baker does -- but this reads like someone who's about to go off the deep end. But where Baker may have sealed his fate was when he was asked about Hendry's upcoming "evaluation" (yeah, I know, buzzword! buzzword!) of his performance this year:

"You should've been judging me on the last 13 or 14 years versus these last three or four months."

Unfortunately, Dusty, that's not the way baseball works, and you've been around the game for nearly forty years, so you ought to know this. Much more so than many other businesses, professional sports is absolutely a "What have you done for me lately?" sort of endeavor. I wrote a few weeks ago about how Baker may have sealed his own fate by NOT adapting to changed circumstances, by repeatedly going back to old, failed strategies; this is a recipe for getting fired not only for a baseball manager, but for a manager in any business.

Sullivan writes about Baker's comment above:

Hendry could not have been happy with Baker's challenge to evaluate him on his entire career instead of 2006 alone. Hendry's carefully chosen response -- "When you're in the situation that we're in, a lot of things go into play when you're evaluating field personnel" -- suggested Baker will be evaluated on what has transpired this season, as well as how the season ends.

And that, I believe, tips Hendry's hand. Why? Remember how carefully he reacted when Todd Walker said, last fall after his option was picked up by the ballclub, that Hendry was only picking up the option in order to trade him?

I don't think that was originally Hendry's intention -- but if you were someone's supervisor at your job, and that person had deliberately made a "screw you" comment like that publicly, wouldn't you try your hardest to get rid of that employee? In this case, of course, Hendry wasn't going to just cut Walker, as he did have value to the ballclub both as a player and in future trade value, but we all know how desperately he tried to deal him all offseason, and when the deadline came close, he sent him away for what we hope is a future return -- though that return may be three or four years away.

The point is, everyone has a breaking point, and I suspect Hendry's reached his with Dusty Baker. Baker, as I wrote last month, can be a good manager if he gets exactly the right mix of players, as he had in 2003. What that accomplished, though, was Hendry ceding authority to Baker on acquisitions -- resulting in the sorts of players the Cubs have now, and the philosophy of both hitting and pitching that have led us to this disaster of a season.

It's going to play out, because Jim Hendry said it will. But I think Dusty Baker will be gone once the last out is registered on October 1.

0 recs  |  Comment 209 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

asdfjkl
"I think Dusty Baker will be gone once the last out is registered on October 1."

I hope you're right, Al. His comments about The Riot in the Trib this morning boggled the mind. What an idiot.

That aside, I agree, Dusty definitely seems like he's beginning to lose it.

"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 9:14 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Reply

His comments about The Riot in the Trib this morning boggled the mind. What an idiot.

These?

Even when Cedeno rested Sunday, manager Dusty Baker started Neifi Perez at second instead of Theriot. Are the Cubs stunting Theriot's development by keeping him around as an insurance policy?

"I really can't say because I wasn't around to see where he came from exactly," Baker said. "Or where he's going, depending on what we need. There are a lot of teams in similar situations with young kids. Look at the Rockies; they have a bunch of them.

"You've got to fill your roster with the best people you can. The majority of his time has been in Triple A. How long has he been here? A month? At this point Ronny is the second baseman, so where's he going to play?

"In two weeks he'd have been here anyway (when rosters can expand). So basically he's probably missed a month. It's not like he's been here all year sitting around."


...I'm still not sure what the heck he is saying.
Peter: "Brian, there's a message in my Alphabits! It says, 'Oooooo!'"
Brian: - "Peter, those are Cheerios." - Family Guy

by VS on Aug 14, 2006 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually
It was this one specifically:
At this point Ronny is the second baseman, so where's he going to play?

Gosh, we sure are lucky to have a manager who sticks to his principles. Dusty believes the same thing on Wednesday as he did on Monday, no matter what might have happened on Tuesday. (500 BCB points to whoever can identify the speaker of that paraphrased quote). Who cares how good Theriot gets? Ronny is the second baseman, dammit. He can hit .375 for all Dusty cares, he already has his guy. Besides, with TWO second basemen, how is Neifi supposed to get his ABs?

Let's move on.

"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Steven Colbert said it
Now where do I redeem these points? Is there a stores somewhere? Can I buy a hat or something?

On a Dusty note, don't they usually wait until after the World Series to announce manager's demise? I thought they didn't like it to overshadow post season play. Maybe I'm just confused.

A baseball game is nothing but a great slow contraption for getting you to pay attention to the cadence of a summer day -Summerland

by Jaxxonfan on Aug 14, 2006 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ding Ding Ding Ding
You can redeem your points at the BCB company store. Unfortunately, all we have left are the "2003 World Series Champs" hats with the Cubs logo. However, I can offer you variety of novelty items, including a glow in the dark yo-ball, itching powder, large superballs in various colors, or a plastic slinky.

If you want to club up to the stuffed Al doll or the inflatable baseball bats, I'm afraid you are going to have to earn more points.

"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The "stuffed Al doll"?
Good heavens! I thought I destroyed all of those!

;)

by Al on Aug 14, 2006 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Um are sure Maddux didn't leave those ?
Espcially the itching powder ? Julie have been sneaking
in the clubhouse and stealing stuff?
I HATE NED COLLETTI

by jessica on Aug 14, 2006 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

note
"but if you were someone's supervisor at your job, and that person had deliberately made a "screw you" comment like that publicly, wouldn't you try your hardest to get rid of that employee?"

by that reasoning, giardi will be let go after the season also. he gave his boss a screw you in the literal sense, rather than baker's figurative one.

by tomas21 on Aug 14, 2006 9:28 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Good!
I hope Girardi gets canned!

What a week. I come back from vacation and Theriot's on fire, Prior is on the DL, Dusty is slowly coming apart, and Girardi was ordered sacked. Did I miss anything else?

"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Welcome back
And all I can think of is that the Cubs went back to playing sh*tty after the homestand, and that Zambrano wore the road grey jersey for maybe the first time ever (at least that I can remember).

by Perkins on Aug 14, 2006 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And
apparently 22% of BCB readers think that the Cubs are going to win the NL Wild Card.
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have a feeling....
... that poll's been ballot-stuffed by someone who wanted it to look stupid.

by Al on Aug 14, 2006 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Since...
you run this site, you should be able to figure out if this is the case.  
he hath no fury like a cubs fan scorned

by timeforachange on Aug 14, 2006 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Come on, Al
Who would do that? I can't think of anyone. . .

;)

"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah...
... I can't either.

;)

by Al on Aug 14, 2006 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Occam's Razor
Does is seem more likely that there is a conspiracy to make your site look silly, or that your readership isn't exactly the most grounded in reality?

The fewer assumptions an explanation of a phenomenon depends on, the better it is.

by Santos Sorrow on Aug 14, 2006 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I find....
this "talk" to be insulting and in violation of BVB community standards.......
he hath no fury like a cubs fan scorned

by timeforachange on Aug 14, 2006 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

that was
one of the worst examples of occam's razor i've ever seen.

by tomas21 on Aug 14, 2006 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Based on what?
His definition was pretty accurate.

by pwhalen on Aug 14, 2006 7:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I vote A
because I remember a prior instance where exactly what has been suggested happened

by slink on Aug 14, 2006 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's a possibility
Since there were reports that he was about to be fired immediately after those comments.

by Scott on Aug 14, 2006 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The stars are starting to align
Now, if only Zito would hit on Cashman's wife or girlfriend or whatever.
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hpoe you're right, Al
After every loss, I console myself with the thought that it's just one step closer to a Dusty-less Cubs team.

by Perkins on Aug 14, 2006 9:34 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The lines beteween Dusty and Ronnie Woo Woo...
are beginning to blur....

 It's too bad, I remember when he came over and said "There's nothing loveable about losing..." and I thought, finally someone gets it. and it's kind of gone down hill from there.

 I find the whole situation kind of sad. I would love for it to end of natural causes on Oct. 1st but it looks like that might not happen.

 Again. Just sad.
 

by yahoodi on Aug 14, 2006 9:41 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Except
Dusty only uses one name in his "woo."

"Nieifi WOO Neifi WOO Neifi WOO Neifi WOO Neifi WOO."

Actually, it gets old pretty fast.

"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A mutual parting
I don't get the sense that Baker wants to return.  His comments are getting stranger by the week.  He looks more and more frustrated.  I really think he's now playing Neifi just because he likes him and doesn't care what Hendry wants to see or what's good for Cedeno or Theriot.

I expect that very shortly after the season is over, there will be a mutual parting.  That will make it a face saving departure for Baker.  That's fine as long as it gets him out of town.  

 

by rlpete on Aug 14, 2006 9:52 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Ditto
A news conference that Dusty is leaving for the good of the club. Words from Hendry that we've been unfortunate in our injuries and remember how close we came in 2003. That's fine. I see no reason to tar and feather anyone. Just make the change and move on with the organization.
Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Aug 14, 2006 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I prefer to judge Dusty on his
past 3 seasons not the past 3 months.  Oh, same results. Never mind.
"We're only 37 games into it. I have a lot of faith in Dusty that he'll be able to pull us out."--- Jim Hendry 5/16/06 Chgo Tribune

by SonnyJ9 on Aug 14, 2006 9:57 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Buster Olney
Had a good line in his blog the other day, something to the effect of "This is turning in to the train wreck we all knew it would".  As long as Dusty is thrown from the train then I can live with it.

I'm wondering what effect his departure will have on Hendry's ability to fill out a roster.  Is Hendry really as dumb as he's seemed the last few years or had Dusty had something to do with that?  Is is possible we'll start acquiring good players now?

by pageian on Aug 14, 2006 10:07 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

We can only hope so.
Hendry DID make some good acquisitions, as you know, in 2002/2003. It was only after he appeared to cede control to Baker, that he started doing dumb things.

by Al on Aug 14, 2006 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You've said before, you think Dusty
has kind of forced his will on Hendry the last few years, leading to what we're seeing now.  I think Hendry is simply incompentent.  It will be interesting to see which theory is closer to reality this off season.  

Hopefully, Hendry truly doesn't believe Cedeno should be the team's starting second baseman next season - maybe that's the test of his competence?

by Santos Sorrow on Aug 14, 2006 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe so.
In any case, the days after October 1 will be a watershed for this franchise. Let Hendry make the RIGHT decisions.

by Al on Aug 14, 2006 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hendry's take on "right" decisions
Pursue Ted Lilly and Jeff Suppan.  Acquire Adam Kennedy.  Sign Preston Wilson.  Go on winter vacation.  Report to Mesa last week in February.  

by Mike63 on Aug 14, 2006 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

1 major trade
I think there will be at least one major trade that the Cubs will be involved in which will change the landscape of what the Cubs should acquire.

by NO100 on Aug 14, 2006 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

God I hope so
The more I think about the current state of things the more depressed I get.  Hendry needs to pull a rabbit out of his hat.

by cubsbak on Aug 14, 2006 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Screw the rabbit
How about a power hitting outfielder and a pitcher who actually throws strikes.  Think he has a hat like that around somewhere?

by Scott on Aug 14, 2006 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The rabbit died a long time ago..
..hence Glendon's abnormally large abdominal region.
My Immediate Kindness Eventually Sets Up Cool Kosier Status.

by santo for prez on Aug 14, 2006 6:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hendry is an example
of the Peter Principle. He was excellent when he ran the minors but he has been incapable of executing a master plan for the organization. Thus, he allowed Baker to set the course, which has resulted in what we have now.

Name one front line pitcher he has acquired. And Maddux doesn't count because of the circumstances. His philosophy is to try and buy cheap, ie., injured guys and hope they turn into gold. I wouldn't mind seeing him back in his previous position but that won't happen.

Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Aug 14, 2006 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i think
his philosophy is:
  1. develop your starting pitchers and middle releivers (see whole starting rotation, wood, prior)
  2. trade for your starting position players (Lee, Ramirez, Barrett, Izturis, Pierre, etc)
  3. sign your spare parts as free agents (neifi, womack, etc)
  4. sign expensive free-agent set-up men (latroy, remlinger, eyre, howry)
that's what it seems like anyways, based on his actions.  by that reasoning, you could predict a trade for an outfielder this off-season and that's about it. but i can't imagine him trying to go into the season without signing a free agent starter, it would be career suicide.

by tomas21 on Aug 14, 2006 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

forgot to add
5. fill the rest of the bullpen with young pitchers from your minor league system/

by tomas21 on Aug 14, 2006 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You forgot
5. Never, EVER, under ANY circumstances trade a player that you scouted or developed in the minors. Such players are considered "untouchable," and if anyone offers you anything of value for them, it's a trick.
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Things are looking good
in terms of a high draft pick.  Marmol, Hill, Guzman and Mateo will assure it....
Forget Zito, Soriano, Schmidt & Lee. Its Mulder, Durham & Cameron instead.

by CubFaninCA on Aug 14, 2006 10:22 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Reply
some poster on NSBB...

and enough already with the griping about the young pitchers. hill, gooz, marmol, marshall, mateo and ryu have gone 13-21 (8 games under .500). z, rusch, wood, prior, williams and maddux have gone 26-34 (8 games under). the cubs don't suck because of young starting pitchers.

furthermore, the four rookies in the rotation now are 8-13. the four guys they are "replacing" (maddux, rusch, wood, prior) have gone 14-27. i can't believe people buy into this young starting pitching excuse the cubs are selling.

Peter: "Brian, there's a message in my Alphabits! It says, 'Oooooo!'"
Brian: - "Peter, those are Cheerios." - Family Guy

by VS on Aug 14, 2006 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol
marmol's, hill's and guzman's era's suck.  gmafb
Forget Zito, Soriano, Schmidt & Lee. Its Mulder, Durham & Cameron instead.

by CubFaninCA on Aug 14, 2006 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reply
And the ERAs of Rusch, Prior, Williams, Wood, and even Maddux are excellent?

Man, why do I even bother...

Peter: "Brian, there's a message in my Alphabits! It says, 'Oooooo!'"
Brian: - "Peter, those are Cheerios." - Family Guy

by VS on Aug 14, 2006 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because
you and the NSBBer's hype up these kids, and when they suck, you look for every excuse because you guys can't handle being wrong...
Forget Zito, Soriano, Schmidt & Lee. Its Mulder, Durham & Cameron instead.

by CubFaninCA on Aug 14, 2006 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reply

because you guys can't handle being wrong...

Right back at you.

I better start getting those recipes ready.

Peter: "Brian, there's a message in my Alphabits! It says, 'Oooooo!'"
Brian: - "Peter, those are Cheerios." - Family Guy

by VS on Aug 14, 2006 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Huh? Example?
I never said the team would be fine trotting out all these kid pitchers.  The NSBB consensus said things would be fine. Play the kids damnit.
Forget Zito, Soriano, Schmidt & Lee. Its Mulder, Durham & Cameron instead.

by CubFaninCA on Aug 14, 2006 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reply

I never said the team would be fine trotting out all these kid pitchers.

I never said you did.  You said I couldn't admit I was wrong, while you're the one who stubbornly clings to your beliefs and ideas, stupid as they may be.


Play the kids damnit.

Finally we agree on something. :-)

And with that I big you farewell, sir.

Peter: "Brian, there's a message in my Alphabits! It says, 'Oooooo!'"
Brian: - "Peter, those are Cheerios." - Family Guy

by VS on Aug 14, 2006 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

bid*
Peter: "Brian, there's a message in my Alphabits! It says, 'Oooooo!'"
Brian: - "Peter, those are Cheerios." - Family Guy

by VS on Aug 14, 2006 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Stupid as they may be...
Classic Moneyballer response.   You guys are so smart!
Forget Zito, Soriano, Schmidt & Lee. Its Mulder, Durham & Cameron instead.

by CubFaninCA on Aug 14, 2006 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What does
"Moneyballer" mean?  If you mean someone who "understands and applies statistical analysis to the game of baseball in ways that have been proven to bear out mathematically," then count me in!!!

by Jhoratio on Aug 14, 2006 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Further...
... "8 games under .500" is a red herring, because the percentage of 26-34 is better than the percentage of 13-21.

Further to further, wins for starting pitchers do NOT always reflect how well they pitched.

by Al on Aug 14, 2006 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reply

Further to further, wins for starting pitchers do NOT always reflect how well they pitched.

Oh, I agree with this 100%.  But to imply that the Cubs suck mainly because of the young players is stupid.  
Peter: "Brian, there's a message in my Alphabits! It says, 'Oooooo!'"
Brian: - "Peter, those are Cheerios." - Family Guy

by VS on Aug 14, 2006 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Even stupider
is including Marshall in with that motley crew.
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes
the Cubs have an outstanding chance of winning the rest of the way w/ Guzman & Hill's ERA's over 7, Marmol's soon to be there, and Mateo has the lowest expectation of them all.  The Yankees wouldn't stand much of a chance w/ this quartet.

Pull your head outta the sand....

Forget Zito, Soriano, Schmidt & Lee. Its Mulder, Durham & Cameron instead.

by CubFaninCA on Aug 14, 2006 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure what
we're arguing about here.  Yes, the rookies have sucked.  Yes, the veterans have sucked.  Can't we all agree on this?

by cubsbak on Aug 14, 2006 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reply

Yes, the rookies have sucked.  Yes, the veterans have sucked.

Yep.
Peter: "Brian, there's a message in my Alphabits! It says, 'Oooooo!'"
Brian: - "Peter, those are Cheerios." - Family Guy

by VS on Aug 14, 2006 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think he wanted to pick a fight??
I just stated the obvious.  The young rotation stinks.
Forget Zito, Soriano, Schmidt & Lee. Its Mulder, Durham & Cameron instead.

by CubFaninCA on Aug 14, 2006 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Perez, Isturis, Pierre and Maybry
The Yankee's wouldn't have much of a chance with this quartet.  

But the difference is that they quartet of Guzman, Hill, Marmol and Mateo all have a chance of being good, or at least helpful, down the road.   And the best way to see if they are on this road or the road to seven-eleven, is to put them out there in what is left of the failed season and see what they can do.   We have seen two efforts from Hill (including one against a team that battered the staff ace) which suggests that he might be very very good.  We have seen a few innings from Guzman, when he's on, where he has been very good.   The same for Marmol and Mateo.  What needs to be done is to see if the good innings are the fluke or the bad innings (which are still an insignficant number) are the fluke.  

In contrast, Juan Pierre has now shown for two full seasons that he is in the decline phase in his career.  And yet, Rusty Baker trots him out every game, every inning.  We don't know if Pagan (and after Sept 1 Pie) can play CF and save us from a major signing blunder.   Even if Baker's gone, he's making sure that they next manager can't suceed.

by frustratedfan on Aug 14, 2006 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

hmmm
they'd still have arod, abreu, posada and giambi in the lineup...
Forget Zito, Soriano, Schmidt & Lee. Its Mulder, Durham & Cameron instead.

by CubFaninCA on Aug 14, 2006 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are you actually suggesting
that the Yankees could replace Jeter with Cesar Izturis and experience no drop-off in run-production (otherwise known as winning)?????

by Jhoratio on Aug 14, 2006 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol
learn to read.....
Forget Zito, Soriano, Schmidt & Lee. Its Mulder, Durham & Cameron instead.

by CubFaninCA on Aug 14, 2006 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

we're losing
partly because of bad offense. and partly because of bad pitching.

Both our veteran pitchers and our rookies have been bad. The fact that the veteran pitchers were bad doesn't really discount the fact that the rookie pitchers have been bad.

I think having rookie pitchers pitching poorly is a big reason why we're bad. That we wouldn't have been any better with our veterans only underscores how bad a job hendry did putting this team together.

by tomas21 on Aug 14, 2006 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

We are just
a week of Neif-eeness starting from the number one pick!  Please dustbag, play your pixie until your heart is content.

by thisteamisajoke on Aug 14, 2006 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The problem with all of this....
is that it is two years too late.  Dusty should have been gone after he let the inmates run the assylum in 04.

Glad to finally have you on board Al!!!! ;)

he hath no fury like a cubs fan scorned

by timeforachange on Aug 14, 2006 10:25 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Hear, hear.
n/t
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Today is Pierre's birthday
He's 29.  Happy birthday to him, now lets hope he signs somewhere else in the off-season.
Peter: "Brian, there's a message in my Alphabits! It says, 'Oooooo!'"
Brian: - "Peter, those are Cheerios." - Family Guy

by VS on Aug 14, 2006 11:28 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

question about Pierre
I'm not saying we should re-sign him, but I'm just curious who you think should lead off for the Cubs in 2007 in his place?

by danimal15 on Aug 14, 2006 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I vote for Ichiro
n/t
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seconded...
Ichiro or Bust!

...

Murton would do a good job in the leadoff spot, IMO.  Or the Cubs can just get some old fart to keep CF busy until Pie is ready.  Like Kenny Lofton.

Peter: "Brian, there's a message in my Alphabits! It says, 'Oooooo!'"
Brian: - "Peter, those are Cheerios." - Family Guy

by VS on Aug 14, 2006 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If I recall,
Kenny Lofton didn't turn out to be too shabby when last he led off for the north siders.
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's not doing so poorly either...
For the teams he's played for since, with the exception of the Yankees, who didn't use him properly.

He killed with the Phillies in 05, and he's killed with the Dodgers this year.

I say bring him back. He won't block Pie and he'd be a nice addition for one year.

by theprognosticator on Aug 14, 2006 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Except
that you are forgetting that Juan Pierre and Felix Pie are two very different ballplayers.  Pierre is a true leadoff hitter which is a mega-precious commodity in baseball (and on the Cubs).  Pie on the other hand displays little of the hitting discipline necessary to hit at the top of the order.  Jim Hendry is a moron, but I don't think he's that big of a moron to stubbornely insist that Pie can be a top of the order solution after the Corey Patterson debacle.  

by Mike63 on Aug 14, 2006 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pierre
I vote for them to re-sign Pierre. He's the first true lead-off guy they've had since Jerome Walton in 1989, and I don't see a lot of others available.

by danimal15 on Aug 14, 2006 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let's hope you're right about Hendry...
And no I'm not forgetting that Pie isn't top of the order material. I'm thinking he starts out batting, at best, 6th in the lineup.

And yes, leadoff man is a precious commodity in baseball, but I have my doubts the Cubs will sign Pierre and then just simply move him to LF once Pie is ready, though that is possible.

I'd much rather the Cubs sign Julio Lugo for the money Pierre is going to make, stick him at second base and then we have our leadoff man set regardless of when Pie is ready.

by theprognosticator on Aug 14, 2006 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How can a guy
who's had an OBP in the .320's this year and last be considered a true leadoff hitter?  He's just not that good.

by cubsbak on Aug 14, 2006 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't disagree
Problem is, my name isn't Jim Hendry.  The Cubs paid a stiff price to acquire Juan Pierre and Felix Pie simply is not top of the order material if/when he becomes ready for big league promotion.  This is why I consider Pierre to be a mortal lock to return.  

by Mike63 on Aug 14, 2006 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, if you're right and Pierre does return...
Things could be worse.

I am though, very leery of signing Pierre for the money he will command, and I am very mindful of how terrible he was in April and May. On the other hand, you can't just disregard what he's been since then. (.352 OBP in June, .380 in July, .382 in August so far). A decent argument could be made that Pierre was simply adjusting to Wrigley and day games and life in Chicago.

Anyhow, we'll see how he finishes. If he's hitting close to .300 with an OBP in the .340s, then I won't mind him coming back.

You just have to wonder where we can find the space and money to land a decent bat, and like I said, I do not want the casualty to be Matt Murton.

 

by theprognosticator on Aug 14, 2006 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am on the side that thinks..
..that based on Pierre's respect and admiration of the dustbag, and the comments that he made in Colorado this week, that Juan Pierre will be part of the "Who?" club in Chicago next year. I agree that he is a "top of the order" guy, but no matter what Hendry tries to do in the offseason, Pierre is gonna walk....especially if Baker is gone.
My Immediate Kindness Eventually Sets Up Cool Kosier Status.

by santo for prez on Aug 14, 2006 6:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Has anyone caught on yet?
It's cool we like the same junk and stuff- Phillip J. Fry

by smwojoz on Aug 14, 2006 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

An excellent point...
Pierre has been good for parts of the season, very very bad for other parts.

He's managed to get his OBP right around .330 for this season after a simply awful start, but unless he's in the .340s by the end of September, I'm not big on bringing him back to the tune of 3 years 27 million.

by theprognosticator on Aug 14, 2006 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree
The money he's going to be asking is probably too high, but 50-60 SBs is pretty awesome. I also agree with the poster who suggested that Pierre's slow start may have reflected him getting used to the day schedule at Wrigley.

by danimal15 on Aug 14, 2006 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

50 - 60 steals are
"awesome"?  

He's been caught stealing FIFTEEN times.   Applying the normal rule of thumb of taking away 2 steals for each caught stealing, he's had an effective stealing of 12 bases.   That's not very good considering how little else he brings to the table.

by frustratedfan on Aug 14, 2006 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What counts
is scoring runs.  I don't care if Juan Pierre steals 1 base or 100 bases, so long as he scores a crapload of runs.  His stats in this department are non-impressive with blame resting on both him and the overall dreadful nature of the Cub lineup with no Derrek Lee.  Pierre covers a ridiculous amount of ground in center and is WAY better than Corey Patterson, who played ridiculously deep on every hitter.  Pierre's only defensive knock, and it's a big one, is his rag arm.  

by Mike63 on Aug 14, 2006 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pie
is not nor will he ever be a leadoff man. We need  someone who will be around for a number of year. Unfortunately, the Cubs are inclined to select their leadoff man from whoever is playing CF that year. Instead, let's get someone with an excellent OBP.

Who was the last full time leadoff man who didn't play CF?

Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Aug 14, 2006 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Eric Young
at 2B was the last quality leadoff man I can remember other than Lofton for half of '03.

by cubsbak on Aug 14, 2006 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Poll question
Can I vote for the Cardinals to get the Wild Card?

by Jhoratio on Aug 14, 2006 11:39 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

That is exactly
what I was thinking!  I voted for the Reds, but only because the Deadbirds weren't listed!
"The good news is, the Cubs have reached rock bottom. The bad news is, they've started to dig." Bob V., May 2006, WGN Baseball Blog ...

by Littlerock Rynofan on Aug 14, 2006 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If personnel decisions
are being made mainly by Dusty, am I to assume that Izturis will be thrown out on his ass where he belongs once Dusty is fired?

by Jhoratio on Aug 14, 2006 11:47 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

So Pierre was the guy Dusty really wanted?
I like Pierre and all, but don't want him back.  Already got enough slap hitters.  Put that money elsewhere.
Forget Zito, Soriano, Schmidt & Lee. Its Mulder, Durham & Cameron instead.

by CubFaninCA on Aug 14, 2006 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That was Big Jim
Maddux wanted out and Izturis was the best being offered.  Izturis will be our shortstop next year.  You can bank on it.

by mgfabc on Aug 14, 2006 11:49 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Rebuttal
And Cesar Izturis will be one of the key strengths to the Cubs in 2007.  He is the best defensive shortstop in baseball who, I believe, will wind up holding his own with the bat.  Izturis was a big acquisition.  

by Mike63 on Aug 14, 2006 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i sort of agree
Izturis is a great piece to some puzzles. Right now the Cubs aren't one of those puzzles, because we have so many weak hitters. If Hendry is able to upgrade our offensive production at second base and in the outfield, it will make the Izturis pickup look a lot smarter.

Here's to hoping Hendry makes the Izturis acquisition look smart.

by tomas21 on Aug 14, 2006 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I concur...
A couple of better bats in the lineup, Izturis batting 8th, and it's not a bad move at all.

Like you said, here's hoping Hendry makes it a good move. As of right now, it's up in the air.

by theprognosticator on Aug 14, 2006 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm with you on this
I think Itzuris was a good move for the Cubs.  We have too many problems elsewhere.  I just hope (fingers crossed) that we upgrade at second base.  I have a sick feeling Ronny C. will be our second baseman.  That is the scary part to me.  

by mgfabc on Aug 14, 2006 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I share your
sick feeling about Augie Cedeno at 2nd base.  

by Mike63 on Aug 14, 2006 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Me too
n/t
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It might have been a good move
if we were a Boston Red Sox caliber offense looking to get better on defense.  Even then, you can only have ONE (if that!) Izturis on your team.  But you can't have an Izturis at short AND 2nd.  Plus, you can't add a guy who makes what we already didn't have even more necessary.  We don't have any bats, and Hendry adds a glove.  The Cubs have the worst offense in the NL and therefore all of MLB.  Out-makers like Izturis are exactly the reason why the Cubs suck.  He may be a great defender, but there is simply no room on a championship starting line-up for a player who can't create runs with his bat.

You think Izturis could crack the line-ups of any of the top teams?  If the answer's no, then why the hell would we want him?

by Jhoratio on Aug 14, 2006 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Before he got hurt
Cesar Izturis was maturing as a hitter.  The Dodgers actually used Izturis as their lead-off man for much of 2004 and 2005 (before he got hurt).  Izturis reminds me a ton of a young Omar Vizquel, and that is lofty comparison indeed.  I believe that Izturis will get better with the bat.  But again it is his defense that makes me drool.  

by Mike63 on Aug 14, 2006 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Please don't start
with the "before he got hurt" stuff.  So he had a hot couple months?  Big deal!  So do a lot of otherwise crappy major leaguers (so did Neifi, by the way, do you think he's threatening to "break out" anytime soon?), but it doesn't mean they'll ever be any good.  And even if it was the start of something, let's rememeber that...HE GOT HURT!!!  That's a bad thing, you know.  A lot of guys get hurt and...gasp...never play well again.

by Jhoratio on Aug 14, 2006 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

IIRC
We had a guy like that a couple years ago. He was fast, good defensively, and had a breakout offensively right before getting hurt. Someone help me with the name...Peterson, no, wait, Corey Patterson. There it is.

by Perkins on Aug 14, 2006 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Corey's cooled off
considerably, if you check the latest stats.  He's stolen a few bases, but who cares really?  Are the O's tearing up the AL East?  Not exactly. He probably did have a way worse than average year his last season as a Cub, but he probably never be much better than 280/310/420, which ain't exactly top 3 pick good.  You're basically looking at a faster, lazier, lighter-hitting Jaque Jones.

Trouble with Izturis is, like Patterson, he gets himself out too much.  He helps the pitcher out of jams when he should be helping him into them.

by Jhoratio on Aug 14, 2006 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, I agree
I drew the comparison to Patterson because I see Izturis as being just as unproductive offensively. Defense be damned, our middle infield was much better before July 31st. At least Todd Walker got on base, even if Cedeno didn't. In the Maddux for Izturis trade, we got hosed.

by Perkins on Aug 15, 2006 1:54 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would be the LAST person on earth..
..to defend Mike63, but here goes. His analysis of Izturis in the field is right on. I want to see Cedeno pan out at 2B only in hopes that it would free up more money to be spent elsewhere. As far as Izturis with the bat (prior to the injury), it is a valid point being made here. He was improving and developing before the injury and has been replaced in the lineup by Furcal. It looks like he is making an effort to develop some patience and I think that he is going to get into a groove. Having a glove like that at shortstop is sooo valuable, if we could get .280/.330/.400 out of him I would consider it a huge boost to the team as a whole.
My Immediate Kindness Eventually Sets Up Cool Kosier Status.

by santo for prez on Aug 14, 2006 6:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The same
could be said of Patterson.
Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Aug 14, 2006 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If...
...Izturis is so great why did the Dodgers get not one but two other shortstops?

by jolietconvict on Aug 14, 2006 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Insurance for 2b
cause Kent's breaking down.
Forget Zito, Soriano, Schmidt & Lee. Its Mulder, Durham & Cameron instead.

by CubFaninCA on Aug 14, 2006 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The only advantage
to keeping Izturis next year is that he'll help us get another high draft pick. How many games has he helped win with his glove since he came over? Compare that with his BA which stinks and now you know why LA dumped him.
Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Aug 14, 2006 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Best Defensive Shortstop in Baseball?
And what is the basis for this claim.  It certainly isn't the numbers.   I just looked, real quick, at 6 other NL shortstops (Greene, Clayton, Reyes, Furcal, Lugo and Rollins).   All but Greene, over the course of their career (up through last year as we don't have a LRF for this year yet) have a greater difference between their range factor and the league range factor than Izturis.  And in the case of Furcal and Clayton its a prononuced difference.  In FP, Rollins beauts Izturis.  

So, the numbers suggest, no matter the metric, that Rollins is better and important numbers suggest that 5 of the 6 that I looked at are at least as good, if not better than Izturis.  

The claim that he is the "best defensive shortstop in baseball" is a big claim.  And it looks quite wrong.

by frustratedfan on Aug 14, 2006 5:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why in the world
Would you bring up a silly thing like facts to try to confuze everyone?

Mike said he's the best defensive SS in baseball, so it's obviously true.

</sarcasm>

by Scott on Aug 14, 2006 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Judging Dusty by the previous 13 or 14 years...
...is how he got the job, and judging him by the last 3 or 4 months (let alone the last 3 seasons) is how he's going to lose it.

by lovejones72 on Aug 14, 2006 12:16 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Dusty
I used to be a Dusty fan. But his managing has become so push-button (especially how he handles his staff) and uncreative that I'm hoping they fire him.

I guess Joe Girardi is on the outs with Marlins' management. He'd be ideal to take over the Cubs. Then we can all bitch about him for three losing years before he gets canned!

by danimal15 on Aug 14, 2006 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Girardi
Joe... Told the owner to zip it .. he told him he was fired .... then changed his mind and made Girardi give the team and him an apology.
Joe is gone after this year .... I think that is what came out of this.... keep your fingers crossed that the Cubs have the brains to hire him if available.  But they probably will go with some company guy like Brently... As I have said McFail doesn't want someone like Joe who is much smarter then him...
Ricky Nolasco won # 11 last night..... and again I ask where the hell did Dusty get his Rep he couldn't manage a little league team for me
And the Cardinals were there for the taking

by FlaCub on Aug 14, 2006 12:35 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The Daily Herald's
Bruce Miles suggests that Joe Girardi wouldn't be Jim Hendry's top choice to replace Dusty.  Rather the name at the top of the list is Freddy Gonzalez, bench coach for Bobby Cox and the Atlanta Braves.  

by Mike63 on Aug 14, 2006 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gonzalez...
... would be my choice, too.

Think for a moment. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Girardi WASN'T a popular former Cub. Consider him vs. Gonzalez (or any other candidate) on that basis.

Still your first choice?

by Al on Aug 14, 2006 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Okay
maybe I'm just not that bright, but I have no idea how you can want someone as a manager based on their stint as a 3B coach. Hitting coach, yes. Pitching coach, sure. But 3B coach? How do you have any idea what kind of a coach he would be? He stands there, he throws signs, he waves people in. Big deal. How does that translate into success as a manger? We had Wendell Kim at 3B, for crying out loud. Are people basing this desire for Gonzalez on his proximity to Bobby Cox? I just don't get it.
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Partly, it's Cox...
... because if you are on the staff of someone as great a manager as Cox is, I'm sure you've learned something from him. Gonzalez doesn't JUST stand on the coaching lines -- and yes, that IS a big deal, or it should be, anyway. Just because the Cubs have had crappy 3B coaches doesn't mean everyone does.

And more than that is Gonzalez' nine-year career as a minor league manager, during which he was named Baseball America's Minor League manager of the year three times.

by Al on Aug 14, 2006 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But my point is
that it's kind of speculative, no? Not like a hitting coach, where there is actually quantifiable data on how well he does his job.  I understand the argument that he must be decent if he's on Bobby Cox's staff, but we really have no way of knowing that, do we? People could have said the same thing about Wendell Kim" "He's on Dusty Baker's staff, so he must be good."

I'm not being snarky. I just really don't understand it when I hear names like Joey Cora and Freddy Gonzalez tossed around. Of course, I also didn't know that Gonzalez had so much success in the minors, so that's something, I guess. And of course, Ozzie is the prime example of a 3rd base coach who hit the ground running, so there's that.

I'd still rather have Girardi because of his personality.

"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And that's only because...
... you know Girardi's personality, and you don't know Gonzalez.

The thing about Kim on Baker's staff is a red herring -- Kim was universally loathed by Red Sox, Expos and Giants fans when he coached there, too.

by Al on Aug 14, 2006 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL
Isn't that the same number of awards Dusty got for MOY? I just had a chill go down my spine.
Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Aug 14, 2006 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Last time I checked....
wasn't ozzie the 3B coach for the marlins before the sox hired him?

by Lablover on Aug 14, 2006 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i like gonzalez
but i'd ratherhave giardi, because he has shown that he can manage, and has more experience with game strategy after being a catcher and bench coach.

by tomas21 on Aug 14, 2006 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gonzalez...
... has managed for nine years in the minors, so I'm guessing he knows game strategy pretty well.

And he was a catcher as a player, too.

Next excuse?

by Al on Aug 14, 2006 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I heard....
He signs his name with a heart where the dot in the "i" should be.

by Santos Sorrow on Aug 14, 2006 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Curious.....
What has stopped him from other jobs?  If he was such a hot commodity someone would have grabbed him up sooner.

I think there are better options.  

he hath no fury like a cubs fan scorned

by timeforachange on Aug 14, 2006 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mike Maddux
The current Milwaukee pitching coach and brother of famous so and so is going to be an outstanding manager someday.  I'd love for a relative no-name like him to take over the Cubs.  But that assumes I think Dusty will be gone at the end of the season, which I don't.  

by Mike63 on Aug 14, 2006 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Question:
Why would the Brewers let him go?

by Al on Aug 14, 2006 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Answer...
upward mobility.  

I believe all coaches have written into their contracts that they can interview for positions greater than their current role.

he hath no fury like a cubs fan scorned

by timeforachange on Aug 14, 2006 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

slow down turbo
i said i like gonzalez as a choice as well, and that short of giardi he is my first choice.

by tomas21 on Aug 14, 2006 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gonzales vs Girardi
Listening to Girardi as I do every night before the Marlins game........... This guy is a NO BRAINER vs anybody .... smart articulate and most of all knows the game, his players....

by FlaCub on Aug 14, 2006 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not so sure
it sounds like Loria has a reputation for being a knee-jerk hothead, and it looks like the GM and a bunch of other execs talked him out of firing Joe. They still have plenty of time to talk him into keeping him on.
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Loria
should thank his lucky stars everyday that his GM is Larry Benifast and his manager Joe Girardi.  It would be massively foolish on the part of an owner already under tremendous heat for slashing payroll and trying to extort the taxpayers of south Florida into building him a new stadium, to piss off either Benifast or Girardi.  Surely he will realize this at some stage and there will be mending of the fences.  Girardi has a wonderful situation for himself in Miami.  He's in a win-win situation.  

by Mike63 on Aug 14, 2006 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dusty Taking Potshots at Hendry
These comments from above
You've got to treat yourself better. You've got to eat better. You've got relieve the stress. You've got to drink less, you've got to drink more water, you've got to take care of yourself.

sure make it sound like it.  

What does not kill you makes you stronger.

by Pa on Aug 14, 2006 12:54 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Wow
I hadn't read it that way before, but now that you mention it, that sounds like exactly what Baker is doing - taking a shot at Hendry.  If true, even further proof he won't be around next year.

by gravedigger on Aug 14, 2006 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If those comments are veiled shots at Hendry...
Then Dusty has punched his ticket out of here.

And I think he now wants to get out of here. He knows this team is a mess and probably won't contend for another couple of seasons, though I think he's deluded himself into thinking none of it is his fault.

by theprognosticator on Aug 14, 2006 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i don't
think that was aimed at hendry even though it could certainly apply to him.

dusty has, since he's been here, gone into long explanations about how he doesn't let things bother him, then talk about all the things he does because things bother him so much. this isn't a new type of comment for him.

by tomas21 on Aug 14, 2006 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If that's true
then Dusty just told Hendry to drink more water? That's hilarious.
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow!
Dusty sounds like he is just barely hanging on. Six weeks is a long time to live in a pressure cooker.

Do I have any takers on whether Murton will be in the lineup tonight? It's be nice to see Theriot in there too but I'm not stupid enough to even think that.

I can't wait for Iowa football!!

by sue369 on Aug 14, 2006 1:58 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Walker made that comment only after he was....
....told by cub management his option was picked up so he could be traded.
I wrote the longest post and best post I ever have. And it just dissapeared, I am so dissapointed right now. Sorry.

by Reverend Jim Ignatowski on Aug 14, 2006 2:06 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

No, I think you have it backwards
I think Hendry really did intend to exercise the option to keep him as the starting 2B. But once he shot his mouth off in public about it, Hendry likely said, "OK, you think I'm going to trade you, I'll go ahead and do it!"

by Al on Aug 14, 2006 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nope, I'm positive I have it right....
...and if you put your mind to it, I'll bet you can figure out how.
I wrote the longest post and best post I ever have. And it just dissapeared, I am so dissapointed right now. Sorry.

by Reverend Jim Ignatowski on Aug 14, 2006 9:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just saw this on CNNSI Scorecard's website...
At least one major league scout is convinced Tom Kelly, who managed the Twins to World Series championships in 1987 and 1991, would consider an offer to manage the Chicago Cubs next season. -- St. Paul Pioneer Press

Sounds good to me.

by cubsbak on Aug 14, 2006 2:12 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Can I have Gardenhire instead?
n/t
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've read some not-so-nice
things about Gardenhire's managing.  I'll take the guy with 2 WS rings to his credit.

by cubsbak on Aug 14, 2006 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

They love him in MN
n/t
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh well, if Maxim says it, it must be true.
Last I checked, the Twinkies had won 34 of their last 42 and are in the thick of the wild card race. I can't imagine in what alternate universe Dusty could inspire the insipid Cubs to such a stretch.
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Uh
Dustbag did inspire the Cubs to a similar stretch at the end of 2003.  One hot stretch does not a good manager make.  

by cubsbak on Aug 14, 2006 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

One hot stretch?
The past few years, the Twins seem to always be in a playoff race. We, on the other hand, with the exception of 2003, are perennially 20 games out of first by August 1.
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Giants
were also perennially in the playoff race when Dustbag was there, as were the Cubs in 2003 and 2004.  I'm not buying Gardenhire as a good manager.  A month and a half ago there's no way you'd be pushing him.  He's just the flavor of the week because his team's hot right now.  My guess is they won't make the playoffs.  And Maxim's not the only place I've seen him criticized.

by cubsbak on Aug 14, 2006 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ron Gardenhire would be great
Problem is I don't see why on earth the perennially in contention Minnesota Twins would let him go.  Gardenhire has worked wonders with a lot of roster turnover and plenty of youngsters over the years.  Problem is Terry Ryan has built an enviable farm system in Minnesota, while Jim Hendry on the other hand has built a system o' crap.  

by Mike63 on Aug 14, 2006 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, Mike
Maxim says he's bad.

Shall we move on to examining the "What Women Really Want in Bed?" expose?

"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

They got it right about Dustbag
you have to admit that.  A month and a half ago the Twins were one of the biggest disappointments in baseball.  

Frankly, I don't even watch the AL so I have no idea how good or bad Gardenhire is.  But I have read rumblings about how he doesn't use his pitchers properly and can't fill out a lineup card, etc.  Same types of things I heard about Dustbag when he was with the Giants before I got to witness it firsthand.  No thanks.

by cubsbak on Aug 14, 2006 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Very well
"They got it right about Dustbag. You have to admit that."

That much I will admit.

However, I have a large extended family and bunch of friends in Minneapolis, and they are all high as a kite on Gardenhire, and were even when the Twins were playing badly. I'm actually jealous of the faith they have in their manager. I've never felt that way about a Cubs manager. Gardenhire is a frequent guest with Boers and Bernstein on The Score, and he seems like one of the smartest, most even-keel managers around.

"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough
That still doesn't quite convince me, but I'll keep it in mind.  As Mike63 points out he's unlikely to be available anyway.

by cubsbak on Aug 14, 2006 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah well
when you have BALCO training your team, that'll happen.
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Minnesota
has a ton of talent too, including two of the best young pitchers and the best young catcher I've seen in a long time.  Do watch the Twins on a regular basis?  How do you know Gardenhire's this great manager?  Because they've gone on a recent hot streak and contended in the AL Central back when that division was absolutely terrible?  Not good enough for me.  Dustbag has more credentials than that.  I'd rather keep him.  At least we'd have continuity.

by cubsbak on Aug 14, 2006 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

As I said above
I do watch the Twins frequently, as my husband is from Minneapolis and his family still lives in MN. As also stated above, I've heard him on the radio a lot, and, if nothing else, I can assure you that he is a lot smarter than Dusty.
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough
"smarter than Dusty."  Doesn't really say much does it... :)

by cubsbak on Aug 14, 2006 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nope
It sure doesn't.
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wait.....
I thought we were examining the "What women want in Bed" Expose.....

Let's get back to that.

by yahoodi on Aug 14, 2006 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sigh
We run off the rails so quickly here...
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL!!
I can't wait for Iowa football!!

by sue369 on Aug 14, 2006 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kelly
having lived in Minnesota through Minnesota's two WS championships, I can't get very enthused about Kelly.  He certainly is as hostile to "unproven" players just like Baker.  And his thin skin makes Dusty Baker look calm and tolerant.

True story.  I'm listening to WCCO and the Tom Kelly call-in show in 1989.  Tim Laudner, the Twins starting catcher, is hitting about .220 and Brian Harper, the backup. is hitting .320.  Some fan had the gall to call up WCCO and ask why he wasn't playing Harper more.

Kelly's answer was instructive.  It went something like "That just shows how much you know.  Brian Harper is a once a week player because he hits .320 when you play him once a week, but as soon as you play him more than that, he'll be down to hitting .220 in no time.  Tim Laudner is an every day player who's proven that he'll come around in no time."

What I really remembered was that not only did Kelly take the time to defend playing Laudner over Harper (which was indefensible, really, since Laudner was a poor defensive catcher too) but that Kelly went out of his way to take a shot at the intelligence of the caller who was clearly smarter than Kelly at this point.

Now remember, Harper wasn't a kid.  He was a 29 year old veteran who had bounced around as teams couldn't figure out what to do with him.  And within a month, Kelly finally bent to reality and made Harper the starting catcher--and he hit over .300 for the Twins for five years as their starter.

by Josh77 on Aug 14, 2006 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tom Kelly
had the pulse and excitement of a hibernating turtle while managing the Minnesota Twins during all those years.  Plus I'm reasonably certain he must be 127 years old by now.  I'd rather take my chances resurrecting the career of Jim Essian.  

by Mike63 on Aug 14, 2006 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Comparing a guy with 2 WS titles
to his credit to Jim Essian is pretty ridiculous.  Almost as ridiculous as suggesting the Cubs would be on pace to lose 110 games without Dustbag's brilliant managing.

by cubsbak on Aug 14, 2006 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or as ridiculous
as suggesting Andy McFailure is an outstanding Team President based on his previous tenure for a Minnesota organization that won two World Series titles under his watch?

by Mike63 on Aug 14, 2006 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That is a very
good point.  I admit to having very high hopes when McFail came in based on that track record.  What a fool I was.

by cubsbak on Aug 14, 2006 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

MacPhail
was GM in Minnesota. That's quite different than Team President. Because he's successful in one position doesn't always carryover. Same as Hendry.
Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Aug 14, 2006 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

True.
MacPhail was also GM of the Cubs from July 19, 2000, till he gave the job to Hendry a little less than two years later.

The Cubs had a good year in 2001 under him.

Maybe he should take the job back.

by Al on Aug 14, 2006 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought
Lynch was GM before Hendry.  When did he serve?

by cubsbak on Aug 14, 2006 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Um...
... read the post above for the dates.

by Al on Aug 14, 2006 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Um...
I don't see any posts indicating when Lynch served as GM.  

by cubsbak on Aug 14, 2006 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, sorry...
... I thought you meant when did MacPhail serve as GM.

The Baseball America Executive Database is an excellent resource -- it's permanently on the left sidebar. Shows all GM's since 1950.

Lynch was GM from October 1994 till MacPhail succeeded him in mid-2000.

by Al on Aug 14, 2006 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah,
the same Andy McPhail that gave Todd Hundley a 4 year, $24 million contract and also traded Dontrelle Willis for Antonion Alfonsucka and Matt Clement during his brief tenure as Cub GM.  

by Mike63 on Aug 14, 2006 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Hundley contract, obviously...
... was a bad signing -- which Hendry turned into something good.

About the Willis deal, the Cubs did get three good years out of Matt Clement, and though Willis was a highly-regarded prospect at the time, I do not think ANYONE thought he would produce as much at the major league level so quickly.

FWIW, if Willis were still a Cub he would be the second-youngest pitcher in the rotation (Hill, Zambrano and Guzman are all older than Willis).

by Al on Aug 14, 2006 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

To be fair to MacPhail
Andy was coming off an injury and wasn't at his best.
Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Aug 14, 2006 8:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

When you can convince me
a team with Sean Marshall, Carlos Marmol, Angel Guzman, Rich Hill, and Donuts Rusch as its starting rotation options can actually be competitive, then I'm all ears.  

by Mike63 on Aug 14, 2006 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No doubt
This team sucks.  But to lose 110 games in the NL this season is almost unfathomable.

by cubsbak on Aug 14, 2006 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If one is unwilling
to look at facts, it's reasonable to presume they are easily confused by them.
Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Aug 14, 2006 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Once again Mike, I'll ask
what was Dusty's excuse in '03?

by Peoria Matt on Aug 14, 2006 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kelly
is only 56.

I wouldn't say he had the pulse of a hibernating turtle.  As I said, he had a massively thin skin and would regularly lash out at anyone who would question his decisions.  In fact, the Twins forced him to take a class on dealing with the public at one point because he was getting so surly.   Some of his battles with Todd Walker were legendary,

Kelly though, is an old-school representative of a game that has passed such managers by.   We don't need another one of those.

by Josh77 on Aug 14, 2006 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

we'll see
how much rope Hendry has this off-season. If Kelly is the manager, it will suggest that Mcfail is getting his fingers back into things.

Kelly would be pretty far down my, and hopefully Hendry's, list.

Plus if Kelly couldn't get along with Todd Walker, is there anyone he CAN get along with?

by tomas21 on Aug 14, 2006 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who knows?
I would tend to agree with Al's take on Dusty's comments and hendry's response, but Dusty's comments could also be directed in part to his perceived media critics and not just the GM.

It's not a big deal either way, I think Dusty's remarks udnerscore his inability to work well in a market where he does not get a free pass from the media and fans.  If he goes elsewhere, it's likely somehwere in the West where the media and fans may be more likely to give him credit for his past that he seeks and also where sports in general are not scrutinized so closely in the media.

2003 was a not a fluke for the Cubs.  The Cubs had oustanding starting pitching and enough power hitting to go to the World Series.  The club decided that it was worth riding the arms of Prior and Wood that hard and they had the perfect manager for the task.  I don't begrudge the Cubs taking such a risk, given how long we have been out of the WS, but it was a short-term decision or perhaps befitting of the school of thought that in the old days the pitchers could take that loa and so it has no effect on injuries, it's all just random and/or attributed to activities like brushing your teeth, using the internet, but never throwing that ball every 5th day for a couple hours of course that has zero effect on the arm--geeezee!!!

Whatever Dude, the Cubs had their one shot and watched Dusty get outmanaged by McKeon, which did contribute significantly to missing the World Series.  Now all we have are 2 burned out arms and idiotic excuses pointing toward a life-long Cubs fan who did nothing but try and catch what he thought was a foul ball.

Then we got the further implosioin/choke at the end of 2004, the downward spiral to badness in 2005, and in 2006 the total transition from low OBP and power to low OBP and NO power, all the while still gambling on the return of the 2 burned out arms.

Dusty can have a talented team win despite his incompetence as a manager, on that I will agree.  Not everything in 2006 was his fault, for sure.  Does he get credit for the good 12-13 years?  I thought that was what he got when we agreed to pay him the $4 million per?  Maybe we should throw in a huge Mulligan now--and give him a raise?

by DudeVf1 on Aug 14, 2006 2:43 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Dusty
I don't think you should get on Dusty's case for riding Wood and Prior in 2003. That's what managers have done from time immemorial, and it's probably the reason the Cubs got into the playoffs that year. You go with your best. If Wood and Prior couldn't handle the load (and it's possible that they couldn't, judging from their breakdowns ever since), it's not Dusty's fault - it's the fault of the current system we have in major league baseball, which doesn't encourage pitchers to develop enough arm strength while in the minors or to learn proper deliveries that prevent injuries. Had Dusty babied Wood and Prior in 2003, and left more games to the whims of the very thin bullpen he had that year, the Cubs would have finished 5 games out. Or more.

by danimal15 on Aug 14, 2006 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are right
I agree with you that it is the way it was done.  I wasn't happy with them doing it at the time but I also thought it was worth trying because we were making the run.  I am conflicted on this because I'd rather see better handling of the pitchers but at the same time when you are in September in the race and you see that your starters are capable of carrying you the whole way then you go for it.

What upsets me more is that in the playoffs against the Marlins Dusty chose the worst option almost every time and his refusal to use guys like Z and Clement in roles that McKeon embraced for his best pitchers really cost us dearly.  At the same time it would have eased the load on both Prior and Wood for that series and I think given us a better chance to win than say Farns, Veres, and the Alfonseca.

I agree with you, go for it when you have the chance, but we had even more firepower or rather better pitchers available to be used in relief in games 6 and 7.

by DudeVf1 on Aug 14, 2006 8:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Al...
...I disagree with you.  I think Dusty baker can win with the right players.  I don't think he's a good manager with any set of players.

by jolietconvict on Aug 14, 2006 3:09 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Well...
... I see what you mean, but winning would forgive a lot of faults, wouldn't it?

Not saying I want him to stay, but let's say the Cubs HAD won in 2003.

You still might want Baker gone, but at least you'd have the memory of him being a winner.

by Al on Aug 14, 2006 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What happened.....
or did not happen in 03 is irrelevant.

Dusty needs to go because he lost control of this team.  His behavior, from throwing around the race card to his on field antics, scream "FIRE HIM NOW!!!!!"

he hath no fury like a cubs fan scorned

by timeforachange on Aug 14, 2006 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Anybody
going to be at Sunday's game? My baby is turning 4, and he is going to have a scoreboard greeting in the 5th inning (thanks to our $25 donation to Cubs Care). So if you're at Wrigley, and you happen to look up at the scoreboard in the 5th inning and see "Happy Birthday Colin," that's him!
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 3:24 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Happy birthday
to your boy. My older boy is 6 1/2 and he'd love that. Unfortunately, it can never happen because his birthday is at the beginning of February.

by danimal15 on Aug 14, 2006 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

On the other hand
My younger son, who's three, was born July 10, so maybe we'll be able to do that for him some day.

by danimal15 on Aug 14, 2006 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

is your
son raven-haired, and have you taught him how to cast spells yet? if you are going to, you want to start early because learning a new language, like witchspeak, works much better when you start early.

by tomas21 on Aug 14, 2006 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, no
I'm a "scarlett-headed witch," not raven-haired, that's sooooo 2005.

But your point is well-taken.

"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 14, 2006 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Greg Maddux
Maddux has pitched like a man possessed for the Dodgers.  Good for him.  Those who labeled him "finished" are looking mighty foolish these days.  Maddux was the second best pitcher on the Cub staff during his entire second tour of duty.  He is, and will be, sorely missed.  

by Mike63 on Aug 14, 2006 3:47 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Question
'Sometimes God delivers you from the desert, and sometimes he walks with you in the desert.'

When He walks, does He clog up the bases?

by 08Cubs on Aug 14, 2006 7:57 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

That
was outstanding. We who are about to die salute you.
Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Aug 14, 2006 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good Stuff.
My Immediate Kindness Eventually Sets Up Cool Kosier Status.

by santo for prez on Aug 14, 2006 10:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dusty, Dusty
Time to go fishing my dude. Al you hit it right on the head, Dusty has not adjusted and refuses to adjust his style of running the club. To play Nefi tonight, is just foolish. 10 for 24 against Oswalt I don't care, play Theriot, cause you know Dusty, the next manager might want to see what he can do.
Wood for closer in 07

by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Aug 14, 2006 10:24 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Dusty Logic
Neifi makes 8 times as much as Theriot, so he should play 8 times as often.
Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Aug 14, 2006 11:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right Mix ?
He could be a good manager with the right mix of
players..... what the hell does that mean.  
Rusty never was a good manager.... he was given good players and consistently found a way for them to play "down" to their ability .. evidence
Cubs 03

by FlaCub on Aug 15, 2006 7:42 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Bleed Cubbie Blue, the Chicago Cubs blog for the SB Nation, created on February 9, 2005 by Al Yellon
Start posting about the Cubs »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Sb_small
Ask BCB - Wacky Trade Proposals
Bucky_small
OT: Annual Thanksgiving  Thread
Small
Reversal of opinion...Bradley will not be moved
Yelloncard_small
Baseball Picture Puzzles Overflow 1
Derrick_rose_poster_by_rokasm_small
You know you want him, Get it done Jim!

Recent FanPosts

Small
Time to get yelled at...
Cubs_small
Cubs HR Over/Under
Cubs_ying_yang_small
OT Aged Stadiums
Small
Here's a thought
Jake_fox_small
25th Annual Cubs Convention
Dscn2381_small
Cubs 2010 2B and "the L word"
Cubswin712_small
Is there anyway we trade some of our high-priced players?
Yelloncard_small
Milton Bradley Named NL "LVP" By Joe Posnanski

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recommended FanShots

Would you blow up the farm system for Halladay?
FanGraphs calls Grabow a "waste of cash."
Fangraphs hasn't given up on Geo, should you?
Baseball America's Top 10 Cubs Prospects
An animated tribute to the no-hitter that Pirates pitcher Dock Ellis threw on June 12, 1970. Simply...

Recent FanShots

Keith Moreland On How The Cubs Can Win It All
Marlins Considering Moving June Series Vs. Mets To Puerto Rico
Mike Kiley insults Wrigley and Cubs fans
Muskat on Fuld : even DUMBER than usual
Free Agency Blunders
"I Want Mark DeRosa"
White Sox Sign Vizquel To One-Year Deal
Cubs' next major hire: marketing guru
Zambrano attends Bears game
Cubs install sign boards in bleachers to block Horseshoe Casino (Budweiser) building...

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

It Is Only...

Cubs By The Numbers

Cubs By The Numbers is a history of the ballclub by uniform number, but the biographies help trace the history of our beloved team in a new way. For everyone who's a Cubs fan, anyone who ever wore the uniform is like family. Cubs By The Numbers reintroduces readers to some of their long-lost ancestors, even ones they think they already know.

Click here to order your copy, available now!

SPONSORS

Recent Stories in Ticket Exchanges

Yelloncard_small
Ticket Exchanges: Cubs Convention 2010
Yelloncard_small
Ticket Exchanges: General 2009 Ticket Exchange
Yelloncard_small
Ticket Exchanges: September 29-October 4 Homestand

Managing Editor

Yelloncard_small Al

Editorial Cartoonist

Toonmike_small toonmike

Contributors

Dsc_0139_small holy mackerel

100px-boisehawkscaplogo_small Josh77

Small shawndgoldman