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Mike came into the LF corner last night, about 30 minutes before game time, and had the line of the night: "Have they fired Jim Marshall yet?"

Marshall, for those of you who are too young to remember him or who are old enough to want to forget him, managed the Cubs through 2 1/2 miserable seasons in the mid-1970's, and is one of only two Cub managers since Leo Durocher (Lee Elia is the other) to get ANY non-interim managerial assignment after he left the Cubs.

I wonder out loud here if Dusty Baker will meet the same fate after he leaves here next month.

It was that kind of night at a nearly-empty Wrigley Field; we had a fairly large (for September) gathering of Mike, Jeff, me, Howard, Howard's other son Mark and his friend Mike, and an old friend of Howard and mine, Don, joined us... and for the first couple of innings, that was the entire population of our section. As about six other people came to sit in our section, we'd tell them the seats were already taken, or other lame humor -- if you saw the game, you may have seen one of them, a guy in a green T-shirt who lay down and napped on one of the benches.

At one point when I'd gotten up for a couple of minutes, I returned to find that everyone had left the section and moved over one section.

I'm writing this and it doesn't really seem that funny, but it was way funnier last night -- I guess you had to be there.

Hardly anyone was -- the announced attendance of 31,494 was less than half that; we guessed around 12,000 were in the ballpark last night and about 1,000 in the 5,100-seat bleachers, to witness the Cubs' totally UNfunny (though entertaining, in the way watching a chain-reaction car accident can be entertaining, 6-5 loss to the Pirates. It was likely the fewest people to be in Wrigley Field for a game since an announced crowd of 14,854 on April 20, 2003, and it felt like crowds we saw back in the late 1970's.

Congratulations. You are now a fan of the worst team in the National League. And unlike the 1999 team, which appeared to quit on Jim Riggleman, and the 2002 team which quit on TWO different managers, this team does at least appear to be giving its best effort. It's just that that effort isn't good enough, because this team is, well, horrid.

Juan Mateo put the Cubs in an early hole by giving up two two-run homers to Jason Bay. At 5-1, this looked like it was going to be a long and boring night, though pleasant and clear and 70 degrees (but more on this later!). The Cubs fought back and tied the game at 5 when Pirates pitcher Marty McLeary (I said to Jeff, "Wasn't that the guy in the 'Back to the Future' movies?") ill-advisedly tried to throw home to get Jacque Jones, and threw the ball away.

At that point I said, "That'll be the last run scored till the 27th inning, at which time, Dusty Baker, having activated himself, will pinch-hit, hack at the first pitch and hit a game-winning HR and come back to the dugout and say, 'Dudes, THAT is how it is done!'"

Once again, that was way funnier at the ballpark.

During all that time, Aramis Ramirez managed to get himself tossed by tossing his helmet after being called out on a play in which he appeared safe. It did appear that Gary Matthews and Baker came out in time to prevent Aramis from doing something that would get him suspended. Though, maybe at this point, he wants to be.

When Ryan Dempster came in and gave up a leadoff single, it appeared he might even get out of the inning after a sacrifice and a slick play by Ronny Cedeno (yes, he actually did make a slick play, mark it down!) catching the lead runner at third. But then, the remnants of the crowd booed heartily when Jose Bautista took off toward second and appeared to be thrown out by Henry Blanco.

The problem is, on that pitch Freddy Sanchez walked, so there was no play on Bautista. Then we heard boos again from the back part of the grandstand after they saw the replays. Was no one actually following the game?

Two wild pitches later, the Pirates had what was the winning run. Even the good defense of Henry Blanco couldn't block Dempster's second wild pitch, the one that scored Bautista. Dempster really does seem to have lost any ability to be a successful closer, or even to keep his team in games like this. It's too bad, really. But he will have to have a different role if he is on the 2007 edition of the Cubs.

Then, after two out in the last of the ninth, back-to-back singles by Matt Murton and Blanco put the tying run in scoring position and the winning run on base -- for pinch-hitter Freddie Bynum.

Oh, well. The result of that would likely be obvious to any of you even if you didn't know what happened. He struck out.

Juan Pierre stole two bases, getting him to 49, but then got thrown out trying to steal third, representing the tying run in the 8th. The Cubs left RISP in the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 7th, and 9th innings, 12 LOB in total.

And to add insult to insult, in the eighth inning a fairly hard rainshower came across the ballpark for about ten minutes, sending Jeff home and Howard and Mark and Other Mike to sit underneath the upper deck, while Mike & I stayed in left field to witness the rest of the carnage.

Last place. This may mean that, as Paul Sullivan writes, Carlos Zambrano may be shut down for the year, even if his injury isn't that serious. Why risk making things worse?

This may give Jae-Kuk Ryu a chance to get some starts before the end of the year.

There's a full moon tomorrow; it rose beautifully above the RF stands last night right at gametime, prompting Mike to say, "There goes the moon, clogging the sky again". And with the goofy happenings last night, it might get even more bizarre tonight.

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Ramirez and the team
I think he's just frustrated.  He's not a leave it all on the field kind of guy, but he's been on some pretty good teams here in Chicago.  I think it's probably fair for him to be angry enough to get tossed.  I'd certainly hope so.  I also hope that he doesn't just walk on his contract.  A really horrible spring when we needed a hitter should not doom us to watching a pretty good third baseman walk  away, possibly leaving us to watch another 100 guys play the position in 15 years.

It was quiet enough at the park that you could hear the vendors on the radio as well as the booing at key moments.  I don't boo, but I probably would have boo-ed this team, particularly last night.

by Woodstock on Sep 6, 2006 9:17 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Ramirez
You are a lot nicer to him than I am, I think he's only frustrated that this might affect his next big contract, I think he's gone after this year, and although I'll miss his bat in the lineup thats about all I'll miss

by flyball on Sep 6, 2006 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed
Given that the Cubs need an extreme makeover, I won't be too choked up if Aramis Ramirez departs.  What's the difference of losing 90 games with Ramirez versus losing 95 games without Ramirez in 2007?  Not much.  

by BlueBooHoo on Sep 6, 2006 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wait a minute.
The Cubs haven't had anything even resembling a good third baseman for 30 years.  Now that they have one, you're willing to let him walk?

Other than Ramirez, there is NO help available at third base this offseason.  Oh wait, maybe we can sign Todd Walker to play third...

by Kornchex on Sep 6, 2006 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

April 20,2003...
...that game was played at PNC Park.

I was there!  That was the game where Solomon Torres hit Sosa in the head -- I was sitting about 20 rows behind home plate.

David Geiser

by dvdmgsr on Sep 6, 2006 9:22 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Whoops!
I misread that as a home game.

In that case, it was probably the smallest number of people in Wrigley Field for a game since April 9, 2002, a crowd of 18,151 vs. the Mets.

The last crowd under 10,000 was on June 1, 2000 -- but there were extenuating circumstances there; that was a makeup game, played on an open date, from a rainout the day before.

by Al on Sep 6, 2006 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

April 9, 2002
High temperature that day: 48F
Low: 38F

With 0.05 inches of precipitation, probably but not certainly rain on the lakefront.

Anyway, the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette estimated 10K no-shows yesterday, which based on what I saw on tv seems pretty conservative.  The Tribune said "thousands".

by dvdmgsr on Sep 6, 2006 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

As I said....
... 31,000 announced, maybe 12,000 in the park total, about 1,000 in the bleachers.

by Al on Sep 6, 2006 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

attendance
I'm so glad to hear that attendance is down. Maybe seeing all those empty seats will remind the Tribune that someday it has to field a winning team, and that a packed ballpark isn't guaranteed for a crummy product. I hope these tiny crowds continue for the rest of the month. Maybe they'll have to close the upper deck, like they did in the 1970s, when I was first going to games at Wrigley. Well, probably not. But this is good news.

by danimal15 on Sep 6, 2006 9:30 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

C'mon Al, 98 years ain't...
...exactly new. Wouldn't it have been better to say (I actually forget the old saying) something to the effect that all is as it should be now?
I wrote the longest post and best post I ever have. And it just dissapeared, I am so dissapointed right now. Sorry.

by Reverend Jim Ignatowski on Sep 6, 2006 9:34 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Oh, but...
... based on the last several years, this is VERY new. It ought to have been a wake-up call to management.

by Al on Sep 6, 2006 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let's see if it lasts
Just like you can't judge attendance by a Saturday July game vs the Cardinals, you also can't judge it by last night's debacle.  Let's see how the home games look from here on out.

It will take more than one lousy night to wake up the Rip Van Winkles in the Trib Tower.  After all, we know they haven't been watching this team...

What does not kill you makes you stronger.

by Pa on Sep 6, 2006 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yet
 you're the one that said protests don't work.

 whatever.

 the message is out there and getting through to real Cubs fans: Wanna be part of the solution not the problem? Don't go to the games.
 

by Matt Allison on Sep 6, 2006 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey Al
And unlike the 1999 team, which appeared to quit on Jim Riggleman, and the 2002 team which quit on TWO different managers, this team does at least appear to be giving its best effort. It's just that that effort isn't good enough, because this team is, well, horrid.

How much of the credit for this continued effort do you give to Dusty Baker?

All will be fixed in 2006

by DSZ on Sep 6, 2006 9:40 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Interesting
So what, might I ask, do you think the role of a manager is?

And more specifically, if you think, as you stated in your post, that the Cubs are giving their best effort, how can you possibly be so extreme in your anti-Baker sentiment?

I expect it from some people on this site, but it has been surprising coming from you.

by DSZ on Sep 6, 2006 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It appears to me...
... that Baker has disconnected from just about anything that has to do with this team.

As far as the players go? Well, remember that the 1999 and 2002 teams were, for the most part, veteran teams. This club does have a lot of young players who actually do play the game right. People like Juan Pierre and Derrek Lee play the game right. Is there credit due to Baker for this? Maybe some. But you have been even more of an apologist for Baker than I ever was.

His time here is up. At one time I thought he was the right guy for this franchise, and he did have success (up to a point) his first year here.

It's over. Done. Let's move on.

by Al on Sep 6, 2006 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Apologist?
Not sure what you mean by that.  If by apologist you mean I defend him from unsubstantiated attacks based on an extremely limited quantity of information, then yes.  I think that a very good case can be made that Dusty Baker should not be retained as manager after the season.  But I have yet to see you or anyone else on this site make it based on any kind of numbers.

People talk about lineup construction despite the fact that numerous studies show that lineup construction is largely irrelevant.  People talk about batters being too aggressive, but nobody has made a strong case that that's Dusty Baker's fault.  How would they do that?  By showing that Cubs hitters are more aggressive now than in their pre-Dusty years.  Why don't they do that?  Because the numbers don't bear it out.  For example, Juan Pierre and Jacque Jones, two frequent targets for overaggressiveness, are actually seeing more pitches per at bat this season than they did in their career.

You often have called on people to base their arguments in fact, which is a good philosophy.  I wonder why you don't demand it from those who go on anti-Baker rants.

I do agree with you that in some ways, Baker does, from outside appearances, seem to have disconnected from the organization (though not the players).  And that, if accurate (something only known to insiders), is a reason for the Cubs and Baker to go their separate ways.  But I think you'd agree that that is a very recent development, whereas the abuse that's been heaped on Baker has gone on far longer.

by DSZ on Sep 6, 2006 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Juan Pierre and Derrek Lee
The one thing these two have in common is the Marlins. Considering the success the Marlins have had compared to the Cubs since they joined the league it makes you wonder what is the difference? Perhaps the Marlins put a lager emphasise on things like work ethic, fundamentals and character when they draft and trade versus the Cubs who seem to favor potential above all else.

by jimhickman on Sep 6, 2006 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think
anyone is advocating keeping Dusty or arguing that he's a good manager.  I think it is possible to praise Dusty for the fact that the team hasn't quit on him and yet still condemn him for the 350 other areas as a manager in which he is deficient.

A terrible doctor can still have a great bedside manner.  You can compliment his rapport with his patients and still not want him to operate on you because he's likely to cut out your liver instead of your spleen.

This team is still playing hard, which at least makes it possible to continue watching them, unlike the 1999 and 2002 teams.  

by Josh77 on Sep 6, 2006 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think
anyone is advocating keeping Dusty or arguing that he's a good manager.  I think it is possible to praise Dusty for the fact that the team hasn't quit on him and yet still condemn him for the 350 other areas as a manager in which he is deficient.

A terrible doctor can still have a great bedside manner.  You can compliment his rapport with his patients and still not want him to operate on you because he's likely to cut out your liver instead of your spleen.

This team is still playing hard, which at least makes it possible to continue watching them, unlike the 1999 and 2002 teams.  

by Josh77 on Sep 6, 2006 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The empty seats
are a loud and clear message to the suits at the Trib.  We're mad as hell and aren't going to take it any more.  I hope fans keep staying away.  Not even John McDonough's marketing magic will keep asses in the seats next year unless there's a complete overhaul, starting with the front office.

This is a watershed year.  I can see Chicago becoming a Sux town.

by Clark Addison on Sep 6, 2006 9:53 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't.
The key for the White Sox to keep the fans coming there is to make the playoffs again this year. If they don't, a lot of the bandwagon-jumpers are going to jump right back off.

by Al on Sep 6, 2006 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Marshall
I don't remember him, but I do remember his successor, Herman Franks, quite well. He had some good teams under him in the late 70s, but couldn't keep them alive during the stretch drives. Maybe it was all the day baseball.

by danimal15 on Sep 6, 2006 9:54 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Herman Franks
Did a wonderful job given the suspect overall talent he had at his disposal.  Beyond Big Daddy Rick Reuschel, Bruce Sutter, Bill Buckner and Manny Trillo, his Cub teams were largely devoid of real talent.  

by BlueBooHoo on Sep 6, 2006 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

finally where they deserve to be
on the off chance a suit at trib tower saw the half full park i imagine a call similar to this was placed to macFAIL. S: andy, why is the park so empty? FAIL: well school is back in and the pirates suck. oh, btw we're in last place now S: well we can't have this. we here at the tower have presided over the failing mother ship and if we don't reap huge profits from baseball my bonus might be cut to 7ml this year. FAIL: well i want you to rest assured jim and i are doing all we can to correct the situation. S: i just want to remind you that the baseball team does have a small roll in the marketing dept. grand plan. and you must remember its not about winning its about marketing. so lets fire up the words largest and most powerfull marketing team and get this turned around. FAIL: yes sir. i'll try to make jim be lucid for a few moments this oct. and hopefully we can get a 2nd tier free agent or two on board and it should make those turnstyles spin, just like last year. you don't have to remind me sir, i know i care as little about winning as you do. just milk the cash cow. S: good to hear andy. keep up the good work.

by sickofthis on Sep 6, 2006 9:57 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Every game lately
seems to be played in slow motion like they do in instant replays. You already know what the decision was but you get to see it happening from different angles.

When the Cubs were down 5-1, I just knew we'd come back. But I also knew that ultimately we'd lose the game. I just didn't know how. So I'd create scenarios. But finally, in the 9th inning, when Dempster came into the game, I knew it was about to happen. It had already happened twice last week against the same team. History was repeating itself. And it did. And I smiled to myself.

Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Sep 6, 2006 10:05 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

That is so funny..
I  had the exact same feeling.  After the first when we were down 2-0 I thought Mateo will now pitch lights out and we will not score or we will tie it up and lose in extra innings.  I swear I thought this after 1/2 inning.  I later saw them tie it up and actually laughed out loud.  I knew when Dempster was brought in it was over.  I was at Sunday's game and had my section ready to fly me to Vegas when I accurately predicted Dempster would get the easy first out, walk the second batter and give up a base hit to the third.  I like Ryan Dempster as a person but his place on this team needs to be reassessed.

by mgfabc on Sep 6, 2006 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So what
numbers do you see for the lottery this week? :)
Football season is here. GO HAWKEYES!!!!!!

by sue369 on Sep 6, 2006 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reality Check
It doesn't matter if people are there. The tickets are already sold.
"Don't worry, Joey. We'll go next year. They're in the World Series all the time" ---My grandfather to my sick father, October 10, 1945

by flyingdonut on Sep 6, 2006 10:07 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

But if people
are refusing to come to the park even at a financial loss, the Trib will recognize that these same people won't put money down for tickets next year without some improvements first.

by TC Cubby on Sep 6, 2006 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right.
The gathering last night is what's going to be sold for many April games next year unless improvements are made.

by Al on Sep 6, 2006 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do you really believe that?
Seriously.  I've been attending games for 30 years.  Wrigley has become an entertainment destination onto itself.  It is THE place to be for loads of people who are nominal Cub fans, or baseball fans period.  The Cubs will sell 2.7 million seats in 2007 guaranteed even if Jim Hendry does zero to improve the ballclub.  Sad truth.  

by BlueBooHoo on Sep 6, 2006 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah
but what nominal fan is going to shell out money in April when its freezing if they can wait til June to go to a game?

by flyball on Sep 6, 2006 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

revenue
no shows don't spend in the gift shops, buy pop/beers/food. they also don't park their cars. can't do anything about ticket sales till feb. then lets send a message to these know nothing and care less jerks who mismanage my favorite baseball team.

by sickofthis on Sep 6, 2006 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But
the overpriced beer, fried foods and cheap souvenirs are not already sold.

A game like last night does hurt the bottom line.

by Josh77 on Sep 6, 2006 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really
The problem is, on that pitch Freddy Sanchez walked, so there was no play on Bautista. Then we heard boos again from the back part of the grandstand after they saw the replays. Was no one actually following the game?

The idiots behind me were screaming "He's out".  I had to turn around and tell them that there was a walk and they still looked confused.

by jolietconvict on Sep 6, 2006 10:09 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

On a positive note
it's fun watching Murton and Theriot play the game. There ain't no dog in them. And here is a quote I never thought I'd see.

Fleita said Pie needs to work on his baserunning, bunting and his overaggressiveness at the plate.

"Sometimes he swings early in the count, like he knows we don't like to see," Fleita said. "But a lot of that is [lack of] experience."

I guess Baker never got that memo.

Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Sep 6, 2006 10:24 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I saw the Fleita tv interview
During that, he talked about how they get stat reports on the number of pitches each minor leaguer gets per AB and the outcome of each pitch.  Then he said "Of course it's good to work the count, but a lot of organizations have a philosophy of throwing first-pitch strikes, so it's important that hitters be aware of that and be ready to jump on that first pitch if it's in the strike zone.  It might be the only pitch you get to hit."

Sounded like the same old-same old to me.

(and yeah, I had to resist the urge to editorialize about how 'some' organizations emphasize, you know, throwing strikes early in the count)

What does not kill you makes you stronger.

by Pa on Sep 6, 2006 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Read in the
Tribune that Pie wouldn't be called up, "to work on things, still rough in some spots"  OH REALLY, like the Cubs don't have those players already. Goodness call the guy up, Cubs are horrible, put him in the lineup couple times of week, What else is he going to do? Go to Arizona to work on his rough edges, cut me a break. Play him now, what is it going to hurt.
Throw out your Gold Teeth and see how they Roll

by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Sep 6, 2006 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Playing him...
... a "couple of times a week", in front of disinterested crowds, in meaningless games -- that's pointless.

In the AFL, he'll be playing games, yes, in front of small crowds, but knowing that he is the cream of the crop, as are the others in the AFL, and they DO have something to play for, their own league championship. And he'll play every day there, rather than ride the bench in Chicago.

by Al on Sep 6, 2006 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed
Felix Pie needs intensified, personalized tutoring.  He can get that in the AFL, not sitting on Dusty's bench watching a dreadful team go through the motions.  

by BlueBooHoo on Sep 6, 2006 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't mind
Pie getting a taste of what MLB is all about.  I'd like him to get a feel as to what being in a major league game is like.  He can't get that in the AFL.  He can then take this knowledge of what he is going to face on a consistent basis once he gets up here to help sharpen the development he's getting.  

It's one thing to tell someone about something and it's another thing to have them experience it first hand.  I'd like for him to get that first hand experience so that he knows what it's like.  

by NO100 on Sep 6, 2006 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rebuttal
I can't possibly envision Felix Pie to be ready to help the Cubs in spring 2007.  He is a nice prospect, but a nice prosect with holes in his swing and a still undisplined approach at the plate that needs work.  Maybe he needs a half year at Iowa, maybe he needs a whole year.  But I don't want him pencilled in for anything until he is clearly up to the challenge.  And where the Cubs are in a position to bat him #7 in the lineup so that he can grow into a major league job.  

I've said it a million times.  It will be absolute shocker to me if Jim Hendry doesn't re-sign Juan Pierre.  Nobody within this organization is prepared to fill the void at lead-off hitter should Pierre depart.  

by BlueBooHoo on Sep 6, 2006 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good points
I don't think though that bringing him up now means that he has to be there spring 2007.  As we all know, the Cubs have nothing to play for.  I think this would be the perfect time to bring him up.  Whether Pie is ready at the beginning of the year or near the end (I think we can all assume that by Sept 2007 he should be in big leagues, unless something truly strange happens) this could be valuable experience.  He would have seen major leagues pitches as well as see how pitchers will adapt to him.  I would especially like to see what he'd learn from watching a veteran against him twice.  This he'll never learn at AAA.  He can then take this knowledge and go back and address it for further development when he's up here for real.  

There is a big difference between AAA and the major leagues and I'm not talking just about baseball here for a second.  There's also a huge lifestyle change.  A taste of that I think would be beneficial so that he knows how to handle it when it's full time.  

by NO100 on Sep 6, 2006 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know...
A little while ago, there were the debates on if Pie was a bust or not.  Now when everyone in the Cubs org. says he is not ready to be called up, he has areas he needs to work on, the cry from a lot of people here is call him up.  

I say if he needs work, let him work with the minor league coaches (especially Von Joshua) in Arizona than expose him to the train wreck that is the 2006 Cubs team.

Kasey

by kaseyi on Sep 6, 2006 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The truth
You want the truth? You can't handle the truth.

Hey, I always wanted to use that line. Anyway, there is only one reason why Pie is going to Arizona rather than Chicago.

The days he spends on the 25 man roster count towards his service time. It's conceivable that by using him now, he'd then reach the year he becomes a free agent one year sooner.

It has absolutely nothing to do with performance. It's the money thing.

Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Sep 6, 2006 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That is just great
Here we send supposedly the Cubs best position player to work with Von Joshua in Arizona. Pie is 22, next year 23. So lets call him up in what Sept. of next year?? He has been hearing from everywhere, media outlets and surely some Cub brass that he is the "5 tool player", and as reported in the Tribune " Pie I am sure is not happy about not reporting to Chicago for Sept."

We will never know what Pie has, because the Cubs are afraid he will fail, the only position player that has his ability. We will most likey see him in 2008, disgruntled and not as eager as he is now.

Cubs are in last,going absoutley nowhere, another 30 days in Arizona, where he will be as thrilled as nothing is not going to make this player.

Throw out your Gold Teeth and see how they Roll

by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Sep 6, 2006 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

emptiness
From my upper deck perch, I actually saw Al & crew change sections ... both sections were empty enough to have the ~5 of them make a difference.

Today looks like it will be the same; the sequence # on the 1st bleacher ticket for sale is 2022.

I'll be there again; I finally found at least one friend willing to go.

by goldstj2 on Sep 6, 2006 10:27 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The rotation
If Zambrano does get shutdown and at this point, why not, the rotation could look like:

Hill
Marshall
Mateo
Walrond
Ryu/Miller

If it's Ryu, I'm sure it will send the historians to the record books.  What's the record for most starts by rookies in a single season or consecutive rookie starts?

An amazing awful season.  100 losses is not out of the question if Zambrano gets shutdown.    

by rlpete on Sep 6, 2006 10:28 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Worse....rotation....
ever...

The people dying for the kids have their wish granted, if Z's done.

Forget Zito, Soriano, Schmidt, Matsuzaka & Lee. Its Eaton, Kennedy, Wood, Pierre and a backup RH OF instead.

by CubFaninCA on Sep 6, 2006 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Z's a kid, too
He's younger than a lot of guys on that list.

Can't argue with shutting him down, though, if he's in pain.  He's got to be ready to go next season.  The talk about his 'degenerative back condition' won't help his trade value, not that Hendry would have dealt him, anyway.

What does not kill you makes you stronger.

by Pa on Sep 6, 2006 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Worst rotation ever?
Maybe.  Though I'm sure the 2003 Tigers might give this team a run for their money.  And any of the Pirates and Royals teams from the last ten years.

But in any case, I'm actually glad that we've got an all rookie rotation.  The season is toast.  We're finally officially in last place.  Throw the rookies into the fire, see if any of them can show something and get experience for next year.

I'm not saying I want the Cubs to lose (I've got tickets for two more games and I always enjoy watching a win much, much more than a loss) but we may as well play for next year.

"When things are at their blackest, I say to myself, 'Cheer up, things could be worse.' And sure enough, they get worse." - Robert Asprin

by Jesse Guam on Sep 6, 2006 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I especially...
..... want to see Ryu pitch. I think he has the chance to be the best of all of them.

by Al on Sep 6, 2006 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really?
Even after the Braves teed off on him on that eight home run day?

by JFCubFan on Sep 6, 2006 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes.
That was ONE start. Hey, if I can be wrong about Rich Hill (who took SEVERAL poundings like that), can't others be wrong about Ryu?

by Al on Sep 6, 2006 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nope
<sarcasm>Al, only you are allowed to make statements about players that turn out to be wrong.  Everyone else's assessments are always right (or conveniently deleted).</sarcasm>
"When things are at their blackest, I say to myself, 'Cheer up, things could be worse.' And sure enough, they get worse." - Robert Asprin

by Jesse Guam on Sep 6, 2006 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

you're going to jinx hill
keep ripping him! ;)
Forget Zito, Soriano, Schmidt, Matsuzaka & Lee. Its Eaton, Kennedy, Wood, Pie in CF, and a backup RH OF instead.

by CubFaninCA on Sep 6, 2006 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, you're right,
the season's lost, let's see what the kids can do and "Wait till next year".

by JFCubFan on Sep 6, 2006 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can't believe
that Hendry did not try to get ONE veteran pitcher at all this year! You have the Woods/Prior fiasco, Maddux hit the skids after his 5-0 start, and then trade him. Thankfully, Hill figured out how to pitch in the bigs. I like Marmol. Put Wood in the pen next year or spot starter, get one or two proven arms in the off season, and maybe make Howry your closer. Dempster is toast unless he's hiding an injury. For someone who was lights out last year and this year a joke, I have to think something is wrong physically.
BigJohnAZ

by BigJohnAZ on Sep 6, 2006 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree
with you Al, Baker comes off as he has no connect with the players, no cohesivness. My gracious since Lee went down, this team for some reason looked clueless and lost

What an offseason this will be.

Throw out your Gold Teeth and see how they Roll

by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Sep 6, 2006 10:56 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Precedent for Ramirez getting ejected?
I didn't see the game last nite, but just saw the replay of Ramirez getting ejected after throwing his helmet.  Is there precedent for this?  I mean, guys throw bats, helmets all of the time.  I know this is a rule in Little League, but is was there really just due to throw him out right there?  I didn't know if there was a specific rule here, if so, it is one not enforced.

by LuisSalazar on Sep 6, 2006 11:00 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I didn't watch the game......
but I heard about it. From what people were saying on Cubs.com it sounded to me like the ump was one of those aggressive umps that tried to incite the situation. I'm not sure if that was the case, but it seemed as though Aramis didn't do a whole lot to warrant getting tossed.

by PriorandAramisfan23 on Sep 6, 2006 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree...
with this assessment.  It looked to me like Ramirez (as usual) dogged it down the line, assuming the play would be made.  When the third baseman bobbled the ball, Ramirez started to run, and he was just barely out (or possibly even safe) at first.  My thought when he threw the helmet was that he was disgusted with himself for needlessly making it a close play or an out at first.  But the umpire immediately tossed him--it wasn't until after Ramirez was thrown out that he said anything to Hallion.  Given that Hallion has a history of instigating fights with players, I would have to say that he was looking to start something last night.

Should be interesting tonight, when Hallion is calling balls and strikes.

by Molechaser on Sep 6, 2006 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rules
Throwing a helmet is always an ejectable offense.  As is arguing balls and strikes.  It is not always enforced, but the throwing the helmet in anger is enforced moderately strictly.

by Woodstock on Sep 6, 2006 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Those two things...
... should be seen differently. Turning and arguing balls and strikes is a deliberate act.

Throwing the helmet in anger and frustration is done in the heat of the moment. I can see the reasoning -- it could hurt someone. But if it is thrown away from anyone, not AT someone, as it appeared from Ramirez last night, I don't see that it should be an AUTOMATIC ejection.

by Al on Sep 6, 2006 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't the 1st base ump
call a strike on ARam for a checked swing in that at bat? I believe the frustration of that entire at bat and the fact that Ramirez was the tying run and may have dogged it to 1st base just added to the helmut toss. The replay showed it was a bang bang play. But, really, who cares in this season for posterity.
Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Sep 6, 2006 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Last night's game was unwatchable
Hence, I didn't watch it.
...right downtown and PRINT IT!!!

by CliffX on Sep 6, 2006 11:26 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Last 3 months have been unwatchable...
....Hence why I haven't watched a game since and won't next year either, unless major re-haul is done.

by escapegoat on Sep 6, 2006 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

re-haul????
OVERHAUL

by escapegoat on Sep 6, 2006 12:19 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Cubs Convention
I am really looking forward to going to the Convention this year just to see what kind of a response certain personnel get. I heard last year was a little rough during the Q&A. I can't even imagine how ugly it will get this year if the team is not vastly improved.
AC 00 00 00 - BELIEVE

by mike on Sep 6, 2006 1:08 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

the
Sunday morning session is goign to be great, I think I'll bring popcorn and watch the carnage

by flyball on Sep 6, 2006 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

by the time
it's over Jim Hendry won't have an ass to be chewed out anymore.
"I respect the mind's power over the body, it's why I do what I do" - Dr. Jonathan Crane

by Faith plus 1 on Sep 6, 2006 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Another reason
I believe the team will try to get Girardi. I believe he's the only person alive who can give credibility to the organization.
Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Sep 6, 2006 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agree
Throw out your Gold Teeth and see how they Roll

by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Sep 6, 2006 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Read the 1060 Blog today for Hughes' comments
Today, if you have time, in particular the roundtable with Gary Hughes...

...ugh... no matter where you come down on the Moneyball vs. scouting debate, the fact that Hughes, in the business, seems clueless in the conversation outside of his guy feelings... wow.

Based on that sort of "gut-feel" only analysis you would get about what we have seen... once every 7 years or so we "out of the blue" stumble into the playoffs, but no sustained plan.

NLBallClub

by NLBallClub on Sep 6, 2006 1:44 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Whoops...
"gut feelings", not "Guy feelings".
NLBallClub

by NLBallClub on Sep 6, 2006 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Read 1060's take on Pierre
It's amazing how those obsessed w/ stats are clueless when it comes to intangibles.  He makes an incomplete argument.  Only an anti-intellectual would arrogantly base Pierre's value solely on stats.  

Not that I want Pierre back.. I'd rather have Pie starting in CF.  :)

Forget Zito, Soriano, Schmidt, Matsuzaka & Lee. Its Eaton, Kennedy, Wood, Pie in CF, and a backup RH OF instead.

by CubFaninCA on Sep 6, 2006 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

then let them know
so they can rip you a new asshole.
"I respect the mind's power over the body, it's why I do what I do" - Dr. Jonathan Crane

by Faith plus 1 on Sep 6, 2006 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ok, kid.
pretty funny they go around calling people "dinosaurs" when their purely technical arguments are old and tired too.
Forget Zito, Soriano, Schmidt, Matsuzaka & Lee. Its Eaton, Kennedy, Wood, Pie in CF, and a backup RH OF instead.

by CubFaninCA on Sep 6, 2006 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

see
this is you thinking I'm defending them.

This is me, not defending them, merely saying that they'll rip you a new one over there.

"I respect the mind's power over the body, it's why I do what I do" - Dr. Jonathan Crane

by Faith plus 1 on Sep 6, 2006 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

learn to write then,,,,
cause you're implying they're superior, since they're doing the "ripping."
Forget Zito, Soriano, Schmidt, Matsuzaka & Lee. Its Eaton, Kennedy, Wood, Pie in CF, and a backup RH OF instead.

by CubFaninCA on Sep 6, 2006 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I write just fine
you can be inferior to someone and rip them a new one.

It's been done.

"I respect the mind's power over the body, it's why I do what I do" - Dr. Jonathan Crane

by Faith plus 1 on Sep 6, 2006 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey Faith
Don't get too worked up over a guy who tells you to learn to write better, then uses 4 commas to do it.
It's cool we like the same junk and stuff- Phillip J. Fry

by smwojoz on Sep 7, 2006 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Was more for the Hughes'
article link than any sort of support or rejection of the tone at 1060.  I like 1060, I like this blog as well.  Shrug.

The point was the roundtable with Hughes... look, you, I and the next guy posting here may or may not know what DIPS is.  If we do know, we may or may not think it is a valid tool in looking at pitchers.

HOWEVER... Hughes' hasnt heard of it!!!

He is in the industry.  He isnt a casual fan.  Ok, reject it, accept it, whatever, but to not be familiar with what DIPS is???

Maybe it's better he doesnt b/c DIPS is a mis-leading stat, I dont know, but reject it based on something, not just not being familiar with it.

I feel like it's talking to a carpenter who hasnt heard of power tools... I mean I am sure there are carpenters out there who CHOOSE to use hand-tools for reasons of tradition, craftsmanship, they are Amish, whatever, and they are really good at what the do... but if you asked a carpenter if he (or she) was familiar with power tools and they were like "No, never heard of them, but I do pretty good with the hand-tools either way".

That was my point, not really about 1060 the blog itself.

NLBallClub

by NLBallClub on Sep 6, 2006 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gary Hughes
is 127 years old and probably doesn't have (or no longer possesses) the cranium horsepower to process reams of stats.  To say he is old school is putting it mildly.  

I'm the furthest thing in the world from a sabermetrician fan.  But in this instance I think we gain glimpse on what is horribly wrong within the Cub infrastructure.  Jim Hendry is a marginal baseball scout masquerading as a big league GM.  And he has surrounded himself with compatible brain power and vision.    

by BlueBooHoo on Sep 6, 2006 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, my point exactly!
It isnt that I am pro or con the 1060 blog.  It isnt that I am saying I am pro or con sabermetrics (I am actually pro both, within reason, so I guess I am saying).

It's no matter where you fall on that "debate", it is indeed a glimpse... it's like the Scopes trial or something, Hughes' doesnt come off as reasoned, he comes off as ignorant of the current state of his damn business!

NLBallClub

by NLBallClub on Sep 6, 2006 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Part of the explanation is
that he is literally older than dirt.  He's been cheating the grim reaper for some time now.  

by BlueBooHoo on Sep 6, 2006 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cub Front Office
What doesn't compute is that Andy McPhail is, by all accounts, a very well educated and intelligent person.  His first hire as Cub President, Ed Lynch, was similar.  Why then did McPhail dip into the lower depths of the gene pool to hire Jim Hendry?  Let's face it.  Hendry is the sharpest knife in the drawer and has communicative skills a notch about the cavemen.  It doesn't compute.  

And Cub fans are paying the price as direct result.    

by BlueBooHoo on Sep 6, 2006 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Everyone's...
...clueless when it comes to intangibles.  By their very definition you have no way of even knowing if they exist.  That's why taking them into consideration when making a decision is foolish.

by jolietconvict on Sep 6, 2006 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

that said
stats are history, and history has a tendency to repeat itself....although it is baseball so stranger things have happened.
"I respect the mind's power over the body, it's why I do what I do" - Dr. Jonathan Crane

by Faith plus 1 on Sep 6, 2006 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's fukkin retarded & offensive...
yes, who cares if a manager can motivate or get along w/ players.  i mean you can't measure it!!
Forget Zito, Soriano, Schmidt, Matsuzaka & Lee. Its Eaton, Kennedy, Wood, Pie in CF, and a backup RH OF instead.

by CubFaninCA on Sep 6, 2006 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think the point is
not that one way is completely wrong (scouting/gut-feeling vs. stats) and the other is completely right, this always gets painted so black and white.

It's just that as Cubs fans some of us feel burned with the intangiables that, for one example, Dusty was going to bring to the table (Remember, he was going to essentially "recruit" FA's to come to Chicago?  Well, we havent really heard that one since 2003, but...)

Again, it isnt that one way is right or one way is wrong necessarily (disclaimer: personally I feel computers and data analysis have revolutionized so many businesses but businesses still have to find strong leaders to motivate the workforce, so there IS a place for both), but...

... Hughes' tone is extremely dismissive and that bothers me as a fan that he, and by implication, the Cubs front-office, are NOT using available tools, or bothering to make themselves aware of what those tools are.

NLBallClub

by NLBallClub on Sep 6, 2006 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep, definitely gets painted
black & white, and I'm tired of the technocrats dismissing all intangibles, as "dinosaour logic."  They're as bad as Dusty and his spite for stats.
Forget Zito, Soriano, Schmidt, Matsuzaka & Lee. Its Eaton, Kennedy, Wood, Pie in CF, and a backup RH OF instead.

by CubFaninCA on Sep 6, 2006 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just because...
...there's not a published stat doesn't mean that something is intangible.  The overall effect of a manager on his team is hard to measure.  However the individual ways in which he influences the team can be objectively measured and evaluated.  It can't be done by you or I It can certainly be done by those close to the situation.  Furthermore no one ever said anything about managers in this brief discussion.  When it comes to ballplayers the most important aspects of their jobs can be measured with objective statistics and they are far and away the best predictors of their performance.  The Cubs have largely based their personnel decisions on intangibles and other non-objective criteria and we can see where it's landed them.  I suppose that's all "fukkin retarded and offensive" though.  Surely your mastery of the English language could never be considered as such.

by jolietconvict on Sep 6, 2006 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seriously,,,
"By their very definition you have no way of even knowing if they exist."

So when your wife/sig other says, "she loves you," do you ask for a mathematical equation for proof??

Just a dumb statement...  

Forget Zito, Soriano, Schmidt, Matsuzaka & Lee. Its Eaton, Kennedy, Wood, Pie in CF, and a backup RH OF instead.

by CubFaninCA on Sep 6, 2006 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

how are you
going to compare a love of a husband and a wife to a 25 man roster in the MLB?

Dumb statement indeed.

"I respect the mind's power over the body, it's why I do what I do" - Dr. Jonathan Crane

by Faith plus 1 on Sep 6, 2006 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's an intangible,,,
just like whether a manager is a teacher, communiator, or motivator.  Just like whether a fast baserunner rattles a pitcher and throws them off rhythm or whether someone's a good dugout presence.
Forget Zito, Soriano, Schmidt, Matsuzaka & Lee. Its Eaton, Kennedy, Wood, Pie in CF, and a backup RH OF instead.

by CubFaninCA on Sep 6, 2006 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

but a good manager
does have all those.
"I respect the mind's power over the body, it's why I do what I do" - Dr. Jonathan Crane

by Faith plus 1 on Sep 6, 2006 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

your proof is?
Forget Zito, Soriano, Schmidt, Matsuzaka & Lee. Its Eaton, Kennedy, Wood, Pie in CF, and a backup RH OF instead.

by CubFaninCA on Sep 6, 2006 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh good lord
I'm done.
"I respect the mind's power over the body, it's why I do what I do" - Dr. Jonathan Crane

by Faith plus 1 on Sep 6, 2006 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

you were done a long time ago..
i'm asking for a stat as proof.  if there's no stat, then according to joliet, it can't be proved..
Forget Zito, Soriano, Schmidt, Matsuzaka & Lee. Its Eaton, Kennedy, Wood, Pie in CF, and a backup RH OF instead.

by CubFaninCA on Sep 6, 2006 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

managers have stats
that's amazing.
"I respect the mind's power over the body, it's why I do what I do" - Dr. Jonathan Crane

by Faith plus 1 on Sep 6, 2006 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

other than
W
L
WP%

amazing.

"I respect the mind's power over the body, it's why I do what I do" - Dr. Jonathan Crane

by Faith plus 1 on Sep 6, 2006 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

this has went well over your head
back to college....
Forget Zito, Soriano, Schmidt, Matsuzaka & Lee. Its Eaton, Kennedy, Wood, Pie in CF, and a backup RH OF instead.

by CubFaninCA on Sep 6, 2006 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm well aware
I'm simply being facetious.
"I respect the mind's power over the body, it's why I do what I do" - Dr. Jonathan Crane

by Faith plus 1 on Sep 6, 2006 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Intangiables
Lack of a measuring tool does not mean something doesnt exist.

Look, 500 years ago electrons could not be measured or quantified, however, that doesnt mean they didnt exist at that time.

Similarly, motivational skills, hustle, leadership, whatever other intangiable you want to talk about... we might not have the ability to measure that in a quantifiable way as of yet (or who knows, ever), but that does not mean it does not exist.

On the other hand, 150 years ago people thought there was an intangiable, "ether" the permeated the atmosphere.  There is, in fact, no such substance.

So the jury is still out.

Again, leadership, etc., does matter, but the bottom line is, if the Cubs are decision-making roster on these sorts of "intangiables" they are horribly terrible at assessing it anyway.

NLBallClub

by NLBallClub on Sep 6, 2006 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No...
...I don't ask for a mathematical proof.  Do you not get the fact that this has nothing do with stats it has to do with evidence?  I have plenty of evidence that my wife loves me.  If I married her based only on the fact that she says she loves me with no evidence to back it up I'd be a moron.  As apparently you're too stupid to even look up what the word intangible means here's the definition from answers.com:

   1. Incapable of being perceived by the senses.
   2. Incapable of being realized or defined.
   3. Incorporeal.

Notice it doesn't say:

   4. Cannot be measured by statistics

by jolietconvict on Sep 6, 2006 9:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sept. 30
Since few of you want to go to Wrigley anymore, maybe someone can help me out. I want to take my 6-year old to the 9/30 game, and get seats up close (we've always sat in the upper deck). Anyone interested in selling me two good season tickets for that game? I'll pay face value or a little above. Thanks.

by danimal15 on Sep 6, 2006 1:46 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Anyone see this?
Article about the Pirates extra practice? http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/cubs.asp

I have heard numerous things alledged about Dusty's practice or lack thereof. What is going on?

by airweino on Sep 6, 2006 3:03 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Bleachers
Yes Al,

Looked like a 70's crowd out there.
Haven't seen the bleachers like that
in a long time.
You guys must have had plenty of
elbow room.....
I remember back in the day when they
would actually have the upper deck
closed off.
Will this team finish with a better
record than 1980 "Team Futility"
(64-98) ??

Cubspizza

by quarryfan on Sep 6, 2006 3:03 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I was at the game
w/ my first ever work ticket game. it was pretty nice to be back there, especially on such a low key night. I also, crazily enough, could not find a single soul to use the other ticket. No one answered their phones, so I was at the game in the upper deck alone.

I was booing pretty loudly when Aramis was called out. It appeared to be an awful call. Some in my section were muttering that the umpire should probably lose his job. They were saying this with a serious tone also, haha.

But anyway, I will always remember seeing the Cubs fall into last place for the first time since...what, 2002?

I have to say it was pretty weird having so few people there, including a very green and not blue bleacher section....

by jag alskar bjornungarna on Sep 6, 2006 4:02 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

As I posted earlier.....
... last time the Cubs were in last place this late in the season was October 1, 2000, the last day of that season, the last time they finished last.

by Al on Sep 6, 2006 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

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