You play, to win, the game.
by lemon20pie on Oct 4, 2007 12:29 AM CDT
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PrintAs Herman Edwards once stated, "You *PLAY* , to *WIN* , the *GAME* !!!!!".
I Just got back from that depressing game in which the Cubs looked unprepared and flat and add to that, didn't do themselves any favors by leaving on way too many runners stranded and in typical Cubs fashion, went hacking at everything, even against 1 of the leagues top 2 Pitchers. Just totally depressing how poorly they played as a team.
But I blame you, Lou. Taking Zambrano out after only 85 pitches?? Add to that one of Zambrano's best outings.....ever??!!! Not even pinch hit??? For a Rookie reliever??!!! You're KILLING MEEEE!!!!
I understand the reasoning...."Zambrano is scheduled to pitch in 3 days...BLAH FREAKING BLAH BLAH BLAH!!!.
YOU , PLAY , TO WIN, THE GAME!!!
This is the best of a 5 game series Lou!!! Not a 162 game season!! You don't look a freaking head!! You needed to win with your best pitcher on the mound and you took him out, because you looked ahead. What a disgrace. Utterly baffling and incomprehensible.
If the Cubs win that game, they have the DBacks by the balls and could've swept them and then you don't even have to worry about resting Zambrano.
This is one of the dumbest moves I've ever seen by a Manager. and I like Lou, but I can not defend him on this decision. The only good thing the Cubs had going in this game was Zambrano.
and Lou pulls him , because he was too busy looking ahead. End of story.
Still think they will win this thing, but now it's a series because they will have to beat Webb, which is tough but especially tough for an impatient team who refuse to take a pitch and recognize the difference between his change and sinker. That's the key to beating Webb, as I know because I see every one of his games. Just makes you wonder what kind of scouting report they got as they were swinging at everything and didn't make him throw stikes, like you need to do to beat Webb.
This loss hurt as bas as any in the recent past, because they should've won this game. Instead of the DBacks looking like the inexperienced and tight team, it was the Cubs.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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And what if...
I don't have a problem with Z being pulled. Marmol just had a bad game. It happens. This was the one game the Cubs could afford to lose, and yes, they did have a shot at winning it.
Pulling Z wasn't the reason. It was the eight men left on base in the first six innings.
I'm tired and need some sleep. I'll write more in the morning recap -- look for it by about 10 am Central time.
yeah yeah yeah
You ignore that fact and bring in an unknown for what? To rest Zambrano up for game 4??
That's what peezes me off. I understand to a man, everyone has to pull their weight in this game, but the fact that Lou looked ahead and instead opted out of the sure thing, is what infuriates me.
As many on this board know as well, I love Marmol. I do. but I said it when he was brought in, Lou will second guess himself for not sticking with Zambrano. The move was passive. There is no room for passive or safe, in the playoffs. especially in a 5 game playoff series. The move stunk.
I am glad you are peeved off
Passive would have been to stick with Zambrano, Piniella was foreward thinking and taking a risk.
Some things you might not understand: Playoff game pressure has a fatique factor, 85 pitches in this situation is on the whole more than in the regular season. Second there is no assurance that Zambrano would not have given up those two runs in the 7th and you would have been peeved that Piniella didn't pull him earlier.
Number two, Cubs are not against the wall and on par you and other Cub fans should have expected the odds were that the Cubs would have lost this game even Baseball Prospectus had it with their PERCOTA that 57% odds were in DBACKS favor. The Cubs had their chances and didn't produce at the plate...1 for 10 in scoring position. Now if you screamed that Piniella didn't manage enough by asking Soriano to bunt for a hit after Zambrano's double getting him to 3rd base with one out you may have a point.
Number three: For the Cubs and Marmol experience is what you get when you don't get what you want. Marmol needed this experience to get the sting in battle for the next 3 or 4 games. So bringing him in was part of the game plan.
Number four: What peeves you off is the result not the process. Piniella's strength is playing two strategies at the same time. They showed Lyon and Valverde and Webb went 7 innings, he is not ready for game 4 even though he also pitched only 89 pitches.
Number five: As a manager genius Piniella also took the press pressure off his team and placed it on himself.
Number Six: Piniella now knows his matchups are to his advantage and like Ali or anyone else knows that he gains winning momentum by winning this game tonight and going to Chicago where the matchups continue to be in his favor. This is aggressive not passive.
well said
by nickkline1 on Oct 4, 2007 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions
how?
also, Pineilla took the pressure off his team and placed it on himself? So the managerial genius gave up game 1 to take pressure off the team???
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 4, 2007 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions
I think it's likely
mentally prepared
that is spending
huh?
he's not "fooling them", he's just a darn good pitcher
and i bet you if Z goes out there in game 4 he's attacking hitters the same way, good pitchers aren't "fooling guys" their stuff is just overpowering
and thats what happens with Webb and Zambrano, both should be fine to go in game 4
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 4, 2007 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions
I thought...
It's supposed to be Davis, Hernandez and Owings for them in 2, 3 and 4.
that's correct
i was just saying that there's very little difference between their 2 outings last night and IF the DBacks wanted to bring back Webb on short rest, they could just as easily as the Cubs bringing back Z
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 4, 2007 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions
I am saying the approach was different
Zambrano probably threw no more than 15 sliders in his 85 pitches he was mentally prepared to pitch on Monday, and if Melvin adjusts on the fly Webb is not prepared.
I disagree
We Never Scored Again.
Even if Zambrano had continued to put zeroes on the scoreboard all night (and the odds were STRONGLY against this, as he'd stranded his share of runners), the Cubs never scored again.
Knowing what we know now - the offense was going to stink all night and would not score again in regulation - the odds were pretty strong that we were losing this one, whether it was Z or Marmol or Howry or whoever giving up the winning score.
by ClosingTime on Oct 4, 2007 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions
Agree, this one was on Lou
There's your 2 run difference if you can get the guy home from 3rd with one away by just making contact with the ball.
by peorianorthsidereport on Oct 4, 2007 12:44 AM CDT reply actions
why don't you
Question do you have Soriano bunt over Zambrano? Why yes, but is Soriano capable? How about try a bunt for a hit?
What about taking Z out with bases loaded and 2 outs and pinch hit? Perfect spot for Fontenot...game tied and Webb was wild, Z doesn't walk....this would have put pressure on Melvin.
I have to agree with this
However...
Are they costly mistakes if the big hitters actually hit? No. The players lost this game and the Marmol issue is insignificant.
by Kinky Reggae on Oct 4, 2007 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions
Let me get this straight.
by ClosingTime on Oct 4, 2007 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes you certainly do bunt in that situation
And you certainly sac bunt Zambrano with a man on 2nd with no outs - but instead Zambrano is swinging for the fences.
Very poor decision making.
by peorianorthsidereport on Oct 4, 2007 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions
Bunt
Now, letting him bat with the bases loaded? That I disagreed with. I would have liked to see a non-pitcher up in that situation. But....
No worried yet
Z on 3-days rest will hopefully work with 85 pitches.
At the end of the day, Webb just pitched great and their bullpen was solid. No need to worry yet. We have our stopper tomorrow night. ALl we know now is we're not going to sweep them for the win.
I've always preached taking pitches
We win the next 2 with Lilly and Hill and then see a replay of Game 1, only this time we win. And that's one of the best games Z's ever thrown. He only got rattled once but it didn't hurt him.
No need to panic
CUBS IN 4!!!
Not panicking.
Peace out Cub fans, time for bed and we will awake and dust off our Lilly shrines and bleed cubbie blue again tomorrow (tonight).
Game 2 is a must win.
two things
second, in the end it makes no difference if you cant score runs.
This sounds like
Um, the Cubs scored one run last night. One. What does Zambrano leaving after 6 have to do with that?
A big, huge nothing. Soriano, Lee, and Ramirez were 1-13 last night. Maybe Zambrano should have thrown 165 pitches into the 17th inning while we waited for our sluggers to remember how to hit.
Lou brought in a relever that has a tiny ERA. That guy had a rare off night. Lou managed fine. The result just wasn't what people wanted. That happens in baseball.
absolutely classic
Then please guys
Is that because of Valley fever?
instead of being your typical smart ass
debate it, don't be your typical dickhead self, josh.
Got a better idea josh
Golly gee willerkers.
What's to debate?
Calling someone a "dickhead"...
And you know it!
Knock it off, NOW!
FYI posted on the SnakePit yesterday
At least it seems like a Million Cub fans sometimes and while i honestly think the Cubs will make it past the DBacks, if for some reason that they fall to the DBacks, it'll still hurt but if the Cubs would lose to anyone, I would prefer it to be the DBacks. I go to a lot of DBack games and my in-laws are 2nd generation Arizona's who all are DBack fans and it's times like this, that they wish their son didn't marry someone from Cheecago.
Here's to a clean and injury free series and maybe the beginning of a good healthy rivalry.
by lemon20pie on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 03:41:17 PM EDT
Rivalry is one thing calling names or responding to posts as to say it makes a valid opinion or observation by saying the post causes them to puke is simply veiled baiting.
Going back just a week I have seen an example of baiting, which you have chimed in.
The baiting appears to be personal and inflammatory, I'll email you.
Last night was not a great game
Our boys got 4 hits last night, and when they did get on base we got pretty used to leaving them there. It didn't look good.
It would have been nice to see a bunt once, maybe twice to get some of those runners on second to third and then possibly home - but supposedly second base is "in scoring position" and we should have been able to get some of those guys across the plate.
As fans we can rightfully second guess a lot (at bats, field positioning, throw decisions, etc), but leaving a pitcher in or not is so outside of our knowledge. How was he feeling? Was he cramping up? Was Marmol's stuff looking great in the pen? I don't know, and second guessing a manager on this is outside my scope.
Looking forward to the game tonight and see how our guys respond. Hopefully the snake kids get a little too cocky and our guys rip off 10 runs in the first three innings. It sure would help get memory of last nights game out of my head.
if Lou doesnt get the majority of the blame
Its unbelievable all year long Lou gets praised for all the work he's done and gets TONS of credit for every winning streak and nearly every win
and then a game where his decisions very clearly had a large impact on the game and the Cubs lose, and he gets absolved of any blame?
then when does he get blamed? What would he have to do? Walk out to the mound and forfeit the game?
Look, i'm the one who believes 95% of the time players dictate the results of the game, and last night our inability to capitalize on many opportunities early in the game was absolutely a primary reason why we lost. But Lou's mismanagement of that situation is just as much responsible. This was a game where the manager had a big chance to impact the result and Lou made a decision that looked odd from the start and didnt work out
Now Lou's made plenty of decisions that have worked out over the course of the season as well, so if we're going to give him a lot of credit for all those, i don't see how you can't give him a healthy amount of blame for this one
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 4, 2007 7:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Did he loose the game or just watch it limp along?
My points earlier were about taking Carlos out. I don't know the reasons, and I'm pretty sure we're just making our best guesses here.
The game was bad. Carlos and Howry were a few of the good spots about it. I'd gladly give Lou more blame if there weren't so much to give out. (4-32! - ugh)
But that was last night, and I'm done with it. I need our guys to stomp on Davis tonight so I can forget this game.
did Lou himself lose it?
but last night he clearly did not put his team in the best position to win the game. I actually dont even have a problem with not bunting Z... Z had the best ABs of almost anyone outside of DeRo last night against Webb, and Soriano with 1 out and a runner on 3rd is not a guaranteed run, considering how often he strikes out. But with the mishandling of the pitching Lou, put us in the worst position to win the game. He made it so we were using relievers before the DBacks were in a tie game, that was likely coming down to bullpens. He took out a pitcher who had dominated a portion of the lineup for a pitcher who had yet to face them. He managed for Game 4 when we had a chance at winning game 1
all of those things are putting our team in a more difficult position to win this game
did HE lose the game? NO, the players did. Players always dictate the results of the game
but in about 5-10% of the games over a season a manager has a very large role in impacting the final result (these are usually the tight 1 run games) and last night was one of them
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 4, 2007 8:20 AM CDT up reply actions
As Mr. Frank Waturi would say...
Yes, the game could and perhaps should have been managed differently - this is an obvious conclusion to make after a loss.
But you want me to agree with you that Lou Pinella "mishandling the pitching" but I won't; because I don't agree. You can point it out other ways, but I'm not going to bite, because it is a difference of opinion.
Facts we can agree upon: the Cubs lost the game last night, the Diamondbacks won it. This makes all of us (except the trolls) unhappy.
Completely agree..
And you are correct, the manager didn't lose the game. Piniella didn't give the Cubs the best chance to win last night either.
Could it be
lou should be blamed
lou should be blamed for not bunting runners over, in a tight game that seems painfully obvious.
but i have no problem with the pitching move.
this was a team loss, with the exception of zambrnao.
Wondered how long this was going to take...
And this....
reply to what I said and then we'll start the discussion.
debate it, don't be your typical dickhead self, josh."
doesnt seem to be necessary. You're doing exactly what you say you DONT want someone else to do. We're all upset they lost.... BUT this was the ONE GAME that most people, IMHO, were expecting to give up. If they HAD won- it would have been nice, but when you go against the reigning Cy Young winner- you just try your best to hang with him. And that's what the Cubs did. Good Game. Was it the best game? No. But there's no reason for the Doom and Gloom campaign to begin yet. Stay Positive!
by nickkline1 on Oct 4, 2007 7:42 AM CDT reply actions
I dont get it either
the 3 batters due up were a combined 0-5 with 3 K's, 1 BB and a GIDP against Zambrano, he clearly had dominated that portion of the lineup.
Plus you're in a tight game against an opposing bullpen that's amongst the best in the league. The game is tied and there's a decent chance you're going to have to extend the bullpen tonight because the game could easily go into extra innings.
So lets say Marmol does pitch well and put up some zeros, well we'd likely have been through Marmol and Howry going into the bottom of the 9th, because the pitcher's slot was coming up in the top of the 9th. So either we had to burn Marmol for 2 innings, making it difficult to bring him back tomorrow, or we go Marmol, Howry and have to use 2 pitchers for those 2 innings. Meanwhile they can use Webb for 7, go to Pena (assuming tie game) in the 8th, and then Lyon for the 9th
we'd be behind a reliever in a battle of the bullpens...
On top of the whole idea that you don't play for Game 4 during Game 1... I like how Lou kept referencing he's bringing back Z for Game 4. What if there isn't a game 4?
yes, there are MANY reasons we lost last night, including poor situational hitting and what not, and I understand Lou walks on water around here... but i just dont see how you cant criticize the move... in the best case scenario we're playing in a tie game against an elite bullpen, and using a bullpen arm before them, thus playing 1 bullpen arm down.
I think if we score in the top of the 7th, its a different issue, then it makes sense to go to the bullpen to try to preserve the lead, but tied heading into the bottom of the 7th... you give the DBacks all the control in the world there.
Of course the DBacks get the lead and then are able to pull their starter after only 89 pitches and could potentially throw him on 3 days rest as well now....
hopefully we'll go out there and get to Doug Davis tonight and strike this from our memory!
Lets go Cubs!
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 4, 2007 7:43 AM CDT reply actions
he brought in
lou should share blame for other bad decisions, but this decision is just being overblown.
marmol is the best relief pitcher in the national league. how can we complain about him coming into a ballgame?
its not who he brought in its when
and the move forced us to go to the bullpen before they did. In a tie game with an equal number of effective relievers on both sides, you're putting yourself at an unnecessary disadvantage by going to the bullpen before the other team
add in the fact the pitcher's spot wasn't due up for another 6 batters and you have ANOTHER reason why it didnt make sense to sub Z right then. The only reason we'd EVER take out Z in that spot, pitching that well, with only 85 pitches is if you're playing for Game 4
Z had thrown 85 or more pitches in 33 of 34 starts, why did this change last night?
because Lou was managing for Game 4
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 4, 2007 8:25 AM CDT up reply actions
Further..
Bringing in
The Cubs only scored one run. That's why they lost.
The Cubs only scored one run. That's why they lost.
The Cubs only scored one run. That's why they lost.
The Cubs only scored one run. That's why they lost.
The Cubs only scored one run. That's why they lost.
The Cubs only scored one run. That's why they lost.
The Cubs only scored one run. That's why they lost.
by Matt Allison on Oct 4, 2007 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Not saying thats why they lost..
Agree with the 7th
All that said, the offense sucked all night and has happened too many times this year, did not deliver the key hit. If the Cubs do go down, I'll venture to say it will be the offense that does them in. Way too early to panic, though. Wait at least till this time tomorrow.
We also learned
First postseason game, and he's throwing it five feet outside.
Yeah, THAT'S a closer!
Ryan Dempster is my closer. Carlos Marmol is, until he proves otherwise, unreliable in the postseason.
by lancaster99 on Oct 4, 2007 7:57 AM CDT reply actions
Well Dempster
so I guess his first outing will make for judgment as well
yes Dempster should be the closer right now, because you don't make whole-sale changes at this point in the season AND the ability to have more flexibility to leverage Marmol and Howry is very important, but lets not get crazy here and make vast generalizations about a player after 1 performance in the postseason
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 4, 2007 8:01 AM CDT up reply actions
Threads like these........
So
I for one understood bringing in Marmol based on his season numbers. I may not have considered that he has not been to the postseason before but he has seemed to handle pressure well this year. I understand resting Z too. 85 pitches though seems low.
Don;t think that the runners left on helped. It was a weak performance by the offense and this is why they lost. Lou made some questionable decisions but leadoff double from our freakin PITCHER and no one can bring him in?
Aram, Soriano, Floyd all tanking in the playoffs? Cmon, WS winner? Not with these performances.
I think, they need to RELAX. They say all the curse shit and pressure of being the Cubs doesn't phase them but I beg to differ.
Buck up fellas, step it up tonight and don;t make us waste another late night.
I understand Lou's thinking
I do agree on some of the setiment regarding letting Zambrano swing away with a runner on second and no outs, and also not pinch hitting for him in the 6th. I was a little surprised by that (especially not bunting Z). Lou's argument would probably be that Z is a .250 hitter (he hit a double his first time up) and he felt it worth while to let him swing away. Considering it was looking to be a low scoring game, I would have bunted Z in that spot.
Nice try, lemon20pie, but...
I've always said that Lou is a great motivator but not a brilliant strategist. Now you all know what I mean. Sure, the move to yank Zambrano was debatable. But I go and look at the other dugout and at what Doug Melvin was planning to do. He was ready to trot Webb out there again in the eight inning. He didn't because his team went ahead. Lou didn't wait to get ahead before yanking Zambrano and now he not only has to send the guy to pitch again in 3 days rest (another debatable move) but he might have to do it with Lilly too if there is a game 5 (questionable at this point).
Again, Lou was the right fit for this team this year, but he makes mistakes. And they are costly.
In the end, though, the team didn't win because they hacked at every ball in the dirt and didn't hit. But I'll get flamed again for criticizing the hitters' approach and whether the manager and his coaches are trying to instill plate discipline on this team. So, I won't say anything.
We'll see what happens tonight and hope for a victory.
I disagree regarding Lou's strategy skills
I do agree this game was lost because they couldn't score runs. But when it comes to changing a hitters discipline/patients - good luck. Hitting is very reactionary (reacting to each pitch) and hitters tendancies are deeply imbeded in them by the time they reach the big leagues. Changing a hitters natural tendancies is one of the hardest things to teach and if you over do it, you end up giving the player brain lock.
If you want patient hitters, sign patient hitters, but don't expect guys to all of a sudden change their approach, especially against one of the best pitchers in the game.
BTW, lemon20pie.
Another debatable (in favor or against) move by Lou.
Wrong.
There is always 20/20 hindsight after a pitcher's duel loss.
You are absolutely correct.
by Fraggin Judge on Oct 5, 2007 1:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Before the game
I'm ambivalent about the move to replace Zambrano. It surprised me at the time, but I also thought Lou was bringing in Marmol to face the bottom of the order and ease him into the playoffs. If Marmol was on, he could have easily gone two innings (possibly yielding to Eyre vs. Drew) and then we're on to Howry (who did look dominating).
My main criticism of Lou is that he should have had someone up in the pen (Wood?) after Marmol gave up the homer. I would have liked to have seen someone else come in when the man reached second base.
However, even the Diamondbacks fans realize that the Cubs probably have the edge the next couple of games.
From my seat behind the plate (in the last row, whew!) it seemed the ump was calling a lot of inside strikes on LH batters, like Floyd. It was true for both teams, but Webb took advantage of it.
Don't Panic
Also, it is not that we couldn't hit Webb. Did you see how hard we hit him at times. Aramis almost launched two last night. It just so happened that we hit at people.
The Dbacks are LUCKY. They have been all season. And they were again last night. They got home runs off of two guys no one has ever heard of. They got out of some jams. They had hard hit balls lined right at them. Tonight we need to make our own luck.
Plate approach
i will never understand why when facing a guy who throws so many sinkers, why you stand so far back in the box...
How many pitches did we swing at that you need a sand wedge to hit. They all know its coming and they still swing at this. Watching this game it was not like these pitches were just dropping off the table, these were balls from the start and they were swing at them any way....
being aggressive is one thing but come on their plate disapline was really bad.
I would hope that these guys watch video on who they face but after last night it just looked like they were all trying to hit 500 foot homeruns.
I have no issue with taking big Z out, this game was on the offense not the pitching, blame the hitting coach for these guys not being prepared to deal with Webb.
Pinella made the right move.
The Cubs offense did what it usually does in a big game: jack-diddly-squat. Tons of guys LOB, missed opportunities, countless strikeouts, and swinging at every 2-0 and 3-1 pitch - no matter where the pitch is or what the situation was.
The Cubs lost because they scored one damn run the whole ballgame. It has nothing to do with Pinella pulling Zambrano in the hopes that he can use him in what will probably be a desperate elimination game on Sunday. I was among those hoping he would do just that when it became clear that the Cubs were more jittery and anxious than the inexperienced kids in AZ.
The Cubs have now scored one run in the past fifteen innings. This is a recipe for disaster, no matter who Lou puts on the mound. You can't win every game 1-0 or 2-1. And you sure as hell won't win a playoff series that way.
"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."
by The Jade Scorpion on Oct 4, 2007 9:38 AM CDT reply actions
you know
game 4 was not a certainty that it would even happen
why would you play for game 4 or game 5 when you're in a tied game in game 1?
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 4, 2007 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Because you don't strategize for a sweep...
After 85 pitches, Lou saw his offense was in a hurry to get to the golf course. Even if Z stayed in and threw another inning (100 pitches+), the Cubs did not score the next inning, nor would they have. Should the Cubs have gotten the lead, Marmol would have come in anyway after 100+ pitches from Zambrano. The result would have been the same because the Cubs offense was anemic, and we already know that their desire to swing on every hitter's count is insatiable. Add to that Marmol's fat pitches on every throw yesterday.........
The simple fact is that leaving Zambrano in would have yielded the same result: a Cubs loss. You could have given the Cubs another five innings yesterday, and they wouldn't have scored again.
I wouldn't be surprised if that "one run in the last fifteen innings" streak became "one run in the last twenty innings" in game two. Like it or not, the Cubs offense has been bad lately, and the Cubs haven't exactly been on a roll for quite some time.
The Cubs have a choice: score runs or lose. Yesterday, they chose to lose - yet we have to hear bellowing about not leaving Zambrano in after 85 pitches, in a short series.
ONE DAMN RUN. There is no other reason for last night's loss.
"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."
by The Jade Scorpion on Oct 4, 2007 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions
so you're saying
why didn't he just run out Marquis then and hope for 8 shutout innings out of the bullpen?
why not pull all of the regulars and play the bench players if he knew the regulars wouldn't score
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 4, 2007 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions
huh?
He put in a pitcher that had given up a total of 6 hits the entire month of September.
This armchair quarterbacking isn't making any sense.
did u read the post above?
"After 85 pitches, Lou saw his offense was in a hurry to get to the golf course. Even if Z stayed in and threw another inning (100 pitches+), the Cubs did not score the next inning, nor would they have. Should the Cubs have gotten the lead, Marmol would have come in anyway after 100+ pitches from Zambrano. The result would have been the same because the Cubs offense was anemic, and we already know that their desire to swing on every hitter's count is insatiable."
the poster above suggested the move made ZERO difference because Lou knew we werent going to score any runs with the current offense
i'm suggesting if Lou knew we werent going to score any runs then he knew there was no way we could win the game, so why not just run out every bench player or scrub, because if we cant score we cant win...
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 4, 2007 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly, NRC.
Critics are not only in the Cubs boards.
by Fraggin Judge on Oct 4, 2007 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions
There's no guarantee of a Game 4
If the Cubs have to marginalize Z's starts in order to give him more, I'd rather go with a 4 man rotation (ie, I'd rather have a 100% Z and a 100% Marquis than 2 80% Z starts, especially since the Cubs could have a 2nd 100% Z start if one ws needed in game 5).
by NO100 on Oct 4, 2007 9:42 AM CDT reply actions
Murton's the Real Goat
The real goat last night is Matt Murton. He failed to get on base and failed to make a single play in the outfield. Why? Because he "failed" so miserably at the start of the season and thus found himself in, at best, a strict platoon in RF. Had he hit like gangbusters at the start of the season, he likely would have reduced Floyd to a spot starter/Supersub off of the bench. Floyd would have been better rested and better able to hit when called upon, and Murton would have been a threat.
But because Murton failed, a tired and old Floyd ended up being the starter in last night's game. If Murton had played like he was supposed to, it either would have been Murton playing or a rested and healthy Floyd.
QUESTION: What did the top 5 in the order do?
that is why they lost the game. Lou's decision was questionable but was not the reason why they lost. They did not score enough runs & had plenty of chances. Worst of all, they had the top of the order at the plate most of the time when these chances presented themselves and they did not come through.
We respect you Lemon, respect us
You have not respected our opinions and have made nasty comments to what we have to say.
I'm rather lose the playoffs then have to read another of your smart-ass comments to many of the contributing posters to this site that actually know how to have a decent conversation with others on here.
And for the record, I agree with what Lou did. We weren't winning the game with how Webb pitched and Marmol any other night would have probably gone 2 score-less innings. Lou was playing for his chances going to the ninth with runs or extra innings.
Yes he can be offensive but...
can we figure out a way
by LT on Oct 4, 2007 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Lou's Decision
You're on the road. It's the playoffs. It's a tie game. Your stud is hanging with their stud. Go for the knockout. Why risk finding out if Marmol (or anyone) really has it in the playoffs when your ace still has plenty of life left in his arm?
If the Cubs win tonight, I suppose it doesn't matter. A split in these first two games is all you can hope for. Then the Cubs have home field.
But if the Cubs lose tonight and go back home down 0-2, I think you have to look back to the Zambrano decision in game 1.
Sorry...Lou's an idiot......
The winner of game 1 wins the short series 70% of the time....
I say you have to play to win every playoff game. There might not even be a game 4 and Lou's gonna look real stupid if there isn't.
Zambrano was on a roll....
And if he's so confident in the pen...he shouldda pulled Z for a pinch hitter w/ the bases loaded in the 6th....
....and he must be going senile....
My thoughts on this
The fact is, Webb was fantastic and he just outpitched The Cubs.
I would have liked to....
Z's a good hitter for a pitcher....BUT...I'd rather a hitter up there......
Whether or not.....
You're just venting.
Cubs hitters scored one run in 9 innings. That's considered weak hitting.
You're mad because the Cubs lost, and you want to blame someone. Since the entire offense sucked, and you need one person, you blame Lou.
ummmmmm.....
Not blaming lou....but his handling of the pitching last night was suspect......
he's an idiot?
An idiot?
Of course, were the Cubs lucky enough to hire -you- as their manager, you would have known that Marmol, who was practically unhittable in the last month, was magically going to give up a home-run. -You-, as their manager would have been able to convince Soriano to bunt, Aramis to hit just four feet farther, Floyd to not strike out, and -- as their manager -- convince the DBacks to just sit this one out.
C'mon. Lou?
by drewishdrewid on Oct 4, 2007 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Moving on
I think we can all agree that tonight's game is a must win game and I'm looking forward to the Cubs putting up a ton of runs tonight and they can leave the valley on an up note and take back the momentum.
On the bright side, if they can win tonight and tie the series up,you'd rather win game 2 than game 1 if you're the visiting team, heading home.
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