Trade Rumors

Until a deal is close

Its hard to believe anything these guys say. I would be OK with that though, a speedy guy with some fire.

Hey.....Cubs win!!! Steve Stone is the most overrated scumbag in the business.

by Hammer on Nov 13, 2007 9:22 AM CST reply actions

If Soriano, Pie and Crawford

make up the outfield, they may want to pick up a fourth and tryout for the 4 x 200 relay at the Olympics.

"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella

by El Borto on Nov 13, 2007 9:26 AM CST reply actions

Oh, lord.

Not another breathless sports talk radio rumor. Can we back off a little on these until and unless they actually happen?

Not quite sure why Hendry is after Crawford, considering what the Cubs need is a right fielder, and Crawford has played exactly zero games in right field in his major league career.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 13, 2007 9:30 AM CST reply actions

Levine is usually fairly accurate

but this is a tad confusing.

It could be that Hendry wants to show Fukudome's representatives that he has another alternative, and he is not putting all his eggs in the Fukudome basket. Also, it is possible they are contemplating going after both Fukudome and Crawford - especially with Piniella having direct experience with Crawford.

With that said, you would think Pie would be part of the deal to lure Crawford along with some young pitching. Piniella has seen this guy play first hand, and I am sure he knows whether he can play either CF or RF.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Nov 13, 2007 9:39 AM CST up reply actions

You're right.

So what's the point of doing it? Having traded Jones, the Cubs need an outfielder. Why bother trading one to get one? You'd still need someone.

And I doubt you'd be able to get both Fukudome AND Crawford -- particularly since, to keep Crawford, you'd have to sign him to a fairly expensive long-term deal. Crawford made $4,125,000 in 2007; I am not certain of his contract status, but 2008 will be his sixth full season, so he is free agent eligible.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 13, 2007 9:47 AM CST up reply actions

I agree Al

I would be surprised if they made a hard run at both of them. This is probably all about Hendry having a backup plan if he can't sign Fukudome, and they will probably have a read on that in the next several days. He wants to have another iron in the fire in case Fukudome get's scooped up by someone else.

If by chance, they were able to land them both, the offensive versatility of their lineup would be incredibly impressive and would also signify the Trib has decided to go "all balls" to win in 08 and let the new owner worry about the dough.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Nov 13, 2007 9:53 AM CST up reply actions

Crawford's Contract

5.25 mil for 2008, 8M team option for 2009, and 10M team option for 2010. That is a pretty good deal, for the team that is.

PC load letter, what the f*** does that mean?

by cubfaninSTL on Nov 13, 2007 10:14 AM CST up reply actions

And as has been discussed

Crawford is a bad defensive outfielder at the only position he can play - left field. I'd trust Soriano in RF long before I'd trust Crawford there. (And, I think it's a bad idea to move Soriano anywhere. Let him stay in left where he's starting to get some comfort.)

by NO100 on Nov 13, 2007 9:40 AM CST up reply actions

The general consensus in baseball...

...and among statistical measures is that Crawford is an excellent left fielder. I don't know where this comes from.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Nov 13, 2007 9:52 AM CST up reply actions

I've seen Crawford

play a few times and haven't really been too impressed with his defense. Perhaps the numbers bear something different and I can't say that I personally have a good sample size to work from. Maybe if I saw him day in and day out, that would be a different story. I guess I was just going on the general consensus of his defensive play.

by NO100 on Nov 13, 2007 9:56 AM CST up reply actions

ESPN zone rating ranks Crawford 1st in LF and

Soriano 5th behind Holliday, Byrnes and Jenkins. And coincidentally Pie the highest with 80 games played in CF.

This OF or Fukudome would be the best defender in the game.

Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."

by Ivy Walls on Nov 13, 2007 10:59 AM CST up reply actions

With a huge offensive hole in CF

"I got mad hits like I was Rod Carew!"

by lostinthevines on Nov 13, 2007 6:37 PM CST up reply actions

Not saying the rumor has validity...

but I believe Crawford played RF in AAA. The difference between RF and LF is often overstated (it's different, but not as much as some would suggest) and I believe that Crawford has the arm strength to play RF. He's certainly athletic enough to make the transition, at least.

That's not to say that it's even on the radar of possibility of happening. But I wouldn't rule out the possibility based solely on the fact that Crawford hasn't played there before. That shouldn't be the rationale for not going after him.

by SouthernCub on Nov 13, 2007 9:41 AM CST up reply actions

I'm sure Hendry is going after Crawford

I'm sure we wouldn't get Crawford without trading Pie or Hill. So for me I don't think that trade is a smart move. You are just creating a hole in the rotation or aquiring a more expensive CF. If Pie is given regular starts this year, he'll put up numbers close to Crawford where the difference in money will seem absurd.

I suppose a package of Gallagher, Patterson, and Samardizja could do the trick, but I think they would just try and leverage that against the Red Sox, Yankees, Dodgers, or even the Reds and try and get packages that are headlined by Ellsbury, Kennedy, Kershaw, or Bruce. Wouldn't get my hopes up.

by IllinoisCubs on Nov 13, 2007 9:38 AM CST reply actions

To assume Pie

would put up numbers similar to Crawford's is a giant leap of faith, and I don't believe anyone knows whether Pie will ever be the hitter Crawford is or even close to it.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Nov 13, 2007 9:42 AM CST up reply actions

Pie's trade value

I agree that equating Pie to Crawford is a bit of a leap of faith.

As I have thought more about Pie and the possibility of trading him, I have come up with this question. How much lower could his trade value be in 12 months?

If you assume that he doesn't get hurt. And obviously if he breaks out he wouldn't be traded. With those givens, if he were to have a "tread water" year, what would his value be?

My hunch is that it wouldn't really be that different than it is now. He has already moved past the "prospect" category, and into the "once highly promising but didn't explode onto the MLB scene" level of player. From that perspective, I don't know that his value in the next year would really change.

If I am correct in my "hunch" then there really isn't much point in trading him now. Unless there is a GM out there who is willing to treat him as a blue-chip prospect (which he isn't), then to me the Cubs should hold onto him and see how things work out.

Eamus Ursuli!

by WGNstatic on Nov 13, 2007 9:50 AM CST up reply actions

It all depends how badly

you want to win right now. From what we have seen to date, Crawford is a much better player than Pie and no one knows whether Pie will improve to a level close to what Crawford would give you.

IMO, Pie's trade value is slightly lower now than it was before he struggled at the major league level. If he was to have more struggles in 08, his value would drop a bit further.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Nov 13, 2007 10:00 AM CST up reply actions

Winning now

I fully agree that with the team constructed the emphasis needs to be on winning now, which is part of the reason I don't see Pie's value going down too much in the next year.

Basically, I don't think that he, or any of his teammates for that matter, will be given enough slack to have a disastrous year.

To me, Pie at worst will have numbers about like what he had this last year. In which case, I don't think his trade value would go down TOO much in the next 12 months.

Thus, my attitude is to keep him, and see if he can turn it on.

The only way I would trade him right now is if he could fetch something highly valuable in return. If he was the cornerstone of a Carl Crawford trade, I am fine with that. But I would certainly not trade him for an ok player such as Khalil Greene (as has been batted about)

Eamus Ursuli!

by WGNstatic on Nov 13, 2007 10:40 AM CST up reply actions

Agree

n/t

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Nov 13, 2007 10:45 AM CST up reply actions

I'm not saying Pie will be Carwford

I'm saying that trading Pie and other players for Crawford would be really stupid because Pie is much cheaper, will be under our control for longer and will put up similiar enough numbers not to make it worth it financially.

There's a big difference between 'put up similiar enough numbers not to make it worth it financially' and 'they will be the same player'.

by IllinoisCubs on Nov 13, 2007 10:00 AM CST up reply actions

Exactly what have you seen

from Pie that would indicate he will put up similar numbers as Crawford?

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Nov 13, 2007 10:02 AM CST up reply actions

Basically his entire minor league career

But, of course, there are some players who are never able to translate that to facing big-league secondary pitches.

Geo! (clap-clap-clap) Soto! (clap-clap-clap)

by cubzfan on Nov 13, 2007 10:14 AM CST up reply actions

The operative words being "minor league"

"I got mad hits like I was Rod Carew!"

by lostinthevines on Nov 13, 2007 6:38 PM CST up reply actions

Pie next year...

the Bill James prediction for Pie next year:

283/333/456

16 HomeRuns & 23 Steals (in 500+ ABs)

If Pie can do the above, and continue with his gold glove defense, I wouldn't want to be moving him anywhere.

Obviously the above prediction may be completely wrong, but I like it when the "experts" & statistics back up my optimism

by MadHatterBlues on Nov 13, 2007 9:47 AM CST up reply actions

re: Pie next year...

Far be it for an ignoramus like me to dispute the projections of the great Bill James (and I'm not being sarcastic), but doesn't 23 steals seem kinda low? I think if Pie is the starting centerfielder, he gets at least 30. Maybe even in the 40 to 50 range.

In any case, I don't want Pie going anywhere either. Let's see a Cubs prospect grow to fruition instead of trading away for a similiar player. Soriano-Pie-Fukudome is officially my dream Cubs outfield for '08.

"Baby, I'm born to lose." ~ Johnny Thunders, 1977

by daver on Nov 13, 2007 1:54 PM CST up reply actions

What If...

Piniella saw enough in 2007 with the three ... let me repeat... three trips to the big leagues that Pie was going to need another year?

Reporters have mentioned that the farm system for the Cubs did not play Pie in the right spot (batting third)... thus promoting his "big swing". They haven't focused on where he would bat in the big leagues (likely 8th for a while, then maybe second?). He wasn't asked to focus on the fundamentals of the game, situational hitting, bunting, and the like.

My point here is what if Pinella has seen enough to say "get rid of him"? We know that Perry is working hard with Pie, and that Piniella was going to go and spend time with Pie for two weeks in the coming month. But if Piniella endorsed a move of, say, Cedeno (we know the Rays need a SS), Pie, Hill/Marshall and a prospect, then Hendry is working it.

Personally I wouldn't touch Samardizja.

by initram on Nov 13, 2007 2:21 PM CST up reply actions

I can't see how Piniella would come to that

conclusion. Pie has been very successful at every step in the minors, he's a positive team player type of guy, he's only 22, and he's very physically gifted.

Perhaps Piniella came to the conclusion that he might need more time or that he's expendable, but I can't think that he would have come to the "get rid of him" conclusion quite yet.

by NO100 on Nov 13, 2007 2:50 PM CST up reply actions

No way

Crawford is a good player but he's not a superstar and I'm not sure he will be. I'm not a huge Pie fan but are you are suggesting Pie, Hill, Cedeno and a prospect for Crawford? I'm not sure I would trade Hill for Crawford and open up that hole in the rotation. Throwing those other guys in the deal makes it a definite no to me.

by rlpete on Nov 13, 2007 3:25 PM CST up reply actions

I Am Not Suggesting Hill

... I am speculating what Hendry supposedly put on the table.

Personally, I think you have to keep Hill. But if the Cubs want Crawford, it likely starts with Cedeno and Hill for sure, and likely a prospect or two.

by initram on Nov 13, 2007 4:36 PM CST up reply actions

Hill should not be part of any pkg...

... except a Santana pkg,

I think Hill has great potential to be a very solid #2 starter in this league for years to come,
Long legged lefty take a little longer to develop a consistent motion and in general, KEEP HILL as the # 3 for next year, he should only get better and better.

I propose a toast to the great 100th anniversy gift known to mankind - A CUBS WORLD SERIES VICTORY!

by BigZ 4 Cy on Nov 13, 2007 9:46 AM CST reply actions

Absolutely!

Unless he were to bring in a frontline starter, you gotta keep Hill.

Many of his peripheral #s were actually the best on the staff last year.

Eamus Ursuli!

by WGNstatic on Nov 13, 2007 9:52 AM CST up reply actions

I don't know if Hill will get much better

He is 27-28 already, but he certainly is one of the best No. 3 starters in all of baseball. If you trade Hill et all for Crawford, you just fill one hole and open another. That wouldn't make any sense to me.

by IllinoisCubs on Nov 13, 2007 10:02 AM CST up reply actions

look at randy johnson

tall lefty, he didnt have his first productive season until he was 27 and didnt have a truly dominating year until he was 30.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Nov 13, 2007 10:09 AM CST up reply actions

Somewhere in that time frame (late twenties)...

...supposedly, the Big Unit had a little one-on-one session with Nolan Ryan, after which he started to put it all together towards a hall-of-fame career. While I'm sure the meeting happened, it may be a stretch to say this meeting was the reason his career took off, but who knows - it might have been.

So what's Mr. Advil doing these days? Think Hendry and Lou can arrange for another meeting? Have the Ryan Express give Hill a few pointers? Maybe get Prior in there to take notes?

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Nov 13, 2007 11:05 AM CST up reply actions

lefty always take a little longer to develop

Hill has made huge stides each year he has been in the bigs, Last year was only his second year in the big league,

What makes you think he will not get much better??
I love his attitude, he can get a little fiesty (he defended barret after he KOed A.J., his rookie year)

Both Hill and Marshall will continue to develop and make good (decent in marshall case, #4 or #5 on a good team)

i definitly dont trade Hill for a position player and not for apitcher unless it brings us a #1 in return, he would have to be packaged of course.

I propose a toast to the great 100th anniversy gift known to mankind - A CUBS WORLD SERIES VICTORY!

by BigZ 4 Cy on Nov 13, 2007 10:11 AM CST up reply actions

The key to Hill getting better

is the development of a change up. If you look at most of the better lefties, they all have a good changeup that keeps hitters off balance.

If he can't rely on a change, I think he will continue to be a guy who has 2 good outings followed by 2 bad outings, because his effectiveness drops considerably when he can't get his breaking ball over.

I also worry a bit about his focus, as he seems to lose concentration at critical times that costs him.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Nov 13, 2007 10:16 AM CST up reply actions

Excellent analysis.

I agree 100%.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 13, 2007 10:20 AM CST up reply actions

even more on Hill

The change up must move to be a flash pitch used when he has gone through the order twice and deep in a count to an out pitch.

Meaning he uses the change up that he can throw for strikes or swinging strike early in the count, where players need to come to plate thinking about the change up. Then his fast ball and curve become devastating. Is Hill willing to work on this or not?

BTW the same holds true for Marshall and probably Veal.

Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."

by Ivy Walls on Nov 13, 2007 11:29 AM CST up reply actions

I agree

there is nothing more bothersome to a hitter than having to worry about 2 pitches that look the same out of the pitchers hand, but are about 10-12 mph difference. It reeks havoc with a hitters timing, and there is nothing more important for a pitcher than to screw up a hitter's timing.

Virtually all of the better pitchers in the game have a good changeup, and if I were running a franchise, I would hire the best available roving instructor that could teach this pitch to all minor league pitchers. I think it would pay tremendous dividends over time.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Nov 13, 2007 11:36 AM CST up reply actions

Crawford

Crawford made 4 errors last year and every year prior to that he made 2 or 1 since he came into the league. I would hardly say that he is a poor defensive outfielder. Additionally, to say that Pie is ever going to put up numbers even close to Crawfords is a pipe dream. Pie is an unknown and should be looked at as such.

by huskercub on Nov 13, 2007 9:52 AM CST reply actions

id much rather have

carl crawford than fukudome, as long as we could get him for a package that didnt include pie.

his power output would likely equal fukudome, but their power should trend in opposite directions. his 50 steals a year would look great in the two-hole. and his average and obp have increased each of the past three years.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Nov 13, 2007 10:01 AM CST reply actions

Why not an outfield...

...that's Soriano-Crawford-Fukudome? That would work for me.

"Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?"

by Jettero2112 on Nov 13, 2007 10:20 AM CST up reply actions

just because

i agree with those above who see pie putting up numbers similar to crawford, but for a lot less money.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Nov 13, 2007 10:22 AM CST up reply actions

could, should, etc

I'd take Crawford over Pie in CF. Have a player you know will be productive instead of one who could, should, might be productive.

"Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?"

by Jettero2112 on Nov 13, 2007 10:29 AM CST up reply actions

agreed but

then we are basically turning into the yankees, and not leting any of our younger players get a chance to prove themselves, Get a decent RF and let pie patrol CF and see what hes got!

I propose a toast to the great 100th anniversy gift known to mankind - A CUBS WORLD SERIES VICTORY!

by BigZ 4 Cy on Nov 13, 2007 10:31 AM CST up reply actions

What are you talking about?

Theriot, Hill, Gallagher, Veal, Samardzija, E. Patterson, Wood (if he resigns), Soto, Cedeno, Marshall, Colvin, etc. are all either from the CUBS' system....or still in it..........

The CUBS have a farm system in the top 1/3 of the league.......

Rich Hill - 2007 - 15-9 (33 starts) - 2.86 ERA, 219 IP, 239 K's, 1.21 WHIP

by TheBeerBaron on Nov 13, 2007 1:30 PM CST up reply actions

I was referring

to the poster above and whoever else wants to keep trading young players before they have a chance to develop and help us.

I realize we might need to make a trade to help ourselves next year (if we dnt get a RF through FE) but a lot of folks seem to want to trade away Pie before he has been given a chancce in the bigs, I for one would like to see him patroling CF next year. Surrounded him with a solid ball club and see if he cant produce when the pressure is not on him to do so. any production you get out of him, then, will be a bonus. We know his D will be solid!

I propose a toast to the great 100th anniversy gift known to mankind - A CUBS WORLD SERIES VICTORY!

by BigZ 4 Cy on Nov 13, 2007 2:07 PM CST up reply actions

Actually, not.

Most "tip sheets", such as BP, etc., have the Cubs near the bottom with prospects. You might want to do your homework. It is getting better with Fieta and Wilkins, though. Good people since McFail left - the bean-counting weenie!

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Nov 13, 2007 2:12 PM CST up reply actions

craig monroe?

classic.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/11/twins-after-cra.html

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Nov 13, 2007 10:18 AM CST reply actions

Wow!

Take whatever you can get. Hey, maybe they'd take Infante, too.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 13, 2007 10:20 AM CST up reply actions

So trading Rapada could gain us a PTBNL

from Minnesota....and you complain about Hendry?

Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."

by Ivy Walls on Nov 13, 2007 11:34 AM CST up reply actions

Monroe

I just read that on the Star Tribune out of Minneapolis:
http://www.startribune.com/blogs/christensen/?p=418

I forgot about Monroe. The Twins usually have some decent prospects, may as well pick up one or two.

by montanacubby on Nov 13, 2007 10:24 AM CST up reply actions

For Monroe?

you won't be getting any good prospects.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Nov 13, 2007 10:26 AM CST up reply actions

Hey maybe now we can get that infield rake

Al wants so badly!!!

I propose a toast to the great 100th anniversy gift known to mankind - A CUBS WORLD SERIES VICTORY!

by BigZ 4 Cy on Nov 13, 2007 10:29 AM CST up reply actions

LMAO

As in the case of Jones, getting anything in return for Monroe is a good deal.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 13, 2007 10:30 AM CST up reply actions

Monroe

I noticed yesterday that Craig Monroe was not listed on the Cubs roster on Cubs.com. I figured that he had been let go under the radar, and perhaps this is just bad site management.

DmL

by dmlichte on Nov 13, 2007 10:28 AM CST up reply actions

Yes . . .

FWIW, Sullivan also dropped this Crawford rumor in today's Trib:

"The Cubs could try to pull off a trade for Tampa Bay's Carl Crawford, which would probably take Rich Hill, Eric Patterson and a couple more prospects."

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-071112cubs,1,1105071.story?coll=cs-h ome-headlines

What jumped out at me was the specificity of the possible deal, which would suggest there are discussions.

Then again it could just be the same (erroneous) source.

peace.

by hoosiercubbie on Nov 13, 2007 10:33 AM CST reply actions

with guys

like marshall and gallagher just waiting to join the rotation, id love a trade with hill and patt as the headliners.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Nov 13, 2007 10:37 AM CST up reply actions

Don't get me wrong...

...because I am absolutely a fan of Sean Gallagher (I think I drove Al up the wall with it last year during spring training, actually)... but he doesn't have the potential or, hell, the track record Hill has. And Marshall -- just because Sean Marshall is left handed doesn't mean he's Rich Hill; it doesn't mean he's close.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Nov 13, 2007 10:44 AM CST up reply actions

thats not what im saying

im saying we have talent who can step into the rotation if a hole needs to be filled. obviously these guys arent magically going to be 200 k guys with mid 3 era's. all im saying is we have the pitching depth to allow us to trade a guy like rich hill, if the reward is a guy like crawford.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Nov 13, 2007 10:50 AM CST up reply actions

Quality pitching is harder to get

I wouldn't be in favor of a Hill for Crawford type deal. That would really open up lots of issues in the back-end of the rotation. I like having 1, 2 and 3 set with Marquis and somebody for 4 and 5.

by rlpete on Nov 13, 2007 10:59 AM CST up reply actions

Maybe they can pick up Kudora (sp?)

to fill out the rotation if they trade away Hill to get Crawford.

"Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?"

by Jettero2112 on Nov 13, 2007 12:15 PM CST up reply actions

I think I could be a famous sportswriter

All I need to do is write one article and mention that it is a possibility the Cubs will trade Pie, Hill and a prospect for somebody big.

Hey.....Cubs win!!! Steve Stone is the most overrated scumbag in the business.

by Hammer on Nov 13, 2007 10:35 AM CST reply actions

Murton?

Could Matt Murton be on the list sent to Tampa?

"I guess you had some lean years, and didnt have to beat it hard" - Craig Sager

by Galvan316 on Nov 13, 2007 10:57 AM CST reply actions

As a filler piece maybe

He's not a cornerstone if there is even a deal being discussed. I don't see how the Cubs get Crawford without either Pie or Hill.

by rlpete on Nov 13, 2007 11:00 AM CST up reply actions

Maybe

they could do it without Pie or Hill if the Rays really like Marmol and Soto. I just don't see it, though. The Rays have plenty of IF and OF and a lot of pitching coming up from the minors. Crawford is a fan favorite signed to a great deal. Why trade Crawford for Pie when you've got Upton, Delmon, Gomes, Baldelli, and Fernando Perez followed by Desmond Jennings on the way up? Why trade Crawford for Hill when supposedly the Giants are willing to give you Lincecum for Delmon?

No, the only trade pieces the Cubs have better than other teams that fit the Rays needs are Marmol and Soto. So, the question is - are you willing to give them up and probably Gallagher, too, for Crawford? I'm not.

by DGU on Nov 13, 2007 2:31 PM CST up reply actions

Marmol and Soto - ouch

I know this sounds like a greedy little kid who doesn't want to share, but giving up soto and/or marmol would really hurt.

Basically, the thing that makes any deal for an impact player so hard is the lack of any depth of good young players in the Cubs system.

Let's face it, Hill, Pie, Soto, Marmol, Marshall, Theriot, EPatt, etc.

There isn't a bonafide star among them, and I can't think of a single position where there is more than 1 ML ready young player in the Cub system (with the possible exception of an SP). So, if they trade someon, it also creates a new gaping hole and jacks up the payroll a bit more.

oh well.

Eamus Ursuli!

by WGNstatic on Nov 13, 2007 2:51 PM CST up reply actions

soto may be key

they have outfield and infield prospects coming up, i dont think they have any stud catchers coming up. soto, gallagher, patterson. who knows. soto would be hard to part with, but could be a good chip in a trade to the rays.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Nov 13, 2007 2:55 PM CST up reply actions

NO way

there is no scenerio is which you trade your starting catcher, and best reliever for an okay, not superstar, outfielder! EVER!!

I propose a toast to the great 100th anniversy gift known to mankind - A CUBS WORLD SERIES VICTORY!

by BigZ 4 Cy on Nov 13, 2007 3:38 PM CST up reply actions

That leaves us with

Koyie Hill and Jason Kendall. Hill's defense is great; Kendall's bat is better (which isn't saying much). You don't part with Soto unless you're getting a HUGE missing piece of your puzzle in return (a stud closer or lefty CF, for example...).

"I got mad hits like I was Rod Carew!"

by lostinthevines on Nov 13, 2007 6:52 PM CST up reply actions

Levine is certainly

the "Man" as far as reporting and the trusted sources he's guarded over a 25+-year career.

However, I STILL am wary of the possibility that Lou will continue to pander to Sori's "need" of batting 1 in the line-up.

It just f's everything up.

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Nov 13, 2007 12:02 PM CST reply actions

I don't disagree

and will predict, if Soriano is not getting on base at a decent rate (.340 or so) and stealing bases as well, he will not last through April leading off, and I don't think it will matter what his limited track record is hitting in another spot.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Nov 13, 2007 12:10 PM CST up reply actions

May the baseball gods

hear you.

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Nov 13, 2007 12:14 PM CST up reply actions

I Think Hendry Is Going After Both...

Crawford in center batting leadoff. Fukudome in right batting second. Matsui at short.

by initram on Nov 13, 2007 2:23 PM CST reply actions

they will have the budget to do that

Bruce Levine has said that he thinks the budget will be close to $120 mil.
He also says he heard ticket prices will rise 20-25% and the increase will go to payroll.
His Saturday morning show is pretty good and informative.

by cubswin on Nov 13, 2007 3:15 PM CST up reply actions

Two Left Fielders

I love Carl Crawford, but it doesn't make sense to trade Hill, EPat and whatever else it takes to get him. If he was a pure right fielder, it would be a little more justifiable; if he doesn't respond well out there, you're stuck with two left fielders and a raw CF Pie. Losing Patterson also eliminates the potential of moving him out to CF if Pie's struggles at the plate continue to make him look like a clone of Eric's bro.

I'd rather focus on an upgrade at SS, a couple of relievers, and our search for a real right fielder.

Since I left, I've always missed Chicago but never as much as I do right now!

by TMOX on Nov 13, 2007 2:25 PM CST reply actions

id think

that with three guys as athletic as crawford, pie and soriano, you could really put any of them in any of these outfield positions. pie could easily play right field too, i know he's played there in the minors.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Nov 13, 2007 3:17 PM CST up reply actions

Sure

Soriano in centerfield worked so well last year. Let's try him in RF next year.

by rlpete on Nov 13, 2007 3:27 PM CST up reply actions

If we were to get Crawford,

what is the deal with his contract?

PIE!!!

by LilLPLancer23 on Nov 13, 2007 4:31 PM CST reply actions

I kniow there is that one site

that has almost every MLB contract, but i dont remember it. Ill have to oput it in my favorites as soon as someone posts it...

PIE!!!

by LilLPLancer23 on Nov 13, 2007 4:32 PM CST up reply actions

mbl4u.com has contract info...

Crawford is under contract through 2008, with team options through 2010. And the price is very reasonable.

by SouthernCub on Nov 13, 2007 5:43 PM CST up reply actions

Cot's Baseball Contracts

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/

"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007

by DeRoMyHero on Nov 13, 2007 10:35 PM CST up reply actions

As far as Hill/Pie

I would really like to keep Hill, cause thatd be really tough to replace him since the free agency is thin with pitching this year. Trade Pie, we would always sign somebody else for CF, or maybe even Sam Fuld if worst comes to worst.
I mean I really love both players, two of my favorites, but Pie hasnt really proven himself at the plate...

PIE!!!

by LilLPLancer23 on Nov 13, 2007 4:43 PM CST reply actions

Probuably nothing you guys don't know.....

But the Devil Rays site is saying that radio stations there are talking about Crawford for Cedeno/Hill/Marmol. We all know about radio rumors, but take it with a grain of salt.

by cubbiematt12 on Nov 13, 2007 5:08 PM CST reply actions

Interesting

but I don't see them tossing in Marmol. I personally don't have a big issue with including Hill, but Marmol is another story.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Nov 13, 2007 5:31 PM CST up reply actions

I can't imagine...

... where these radio guys get this nonsense. Apart from Zambrano, Marmol's probably the most untouchable guy on the Cubs. He's not going anywhere.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 13, 2007 6:59 PM CST up reply actions

no

sorry, that's what they would hope to get, but i see no way we include marmol in the same deal as rich hill.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Nov 13, 2007 7:02 PM CST up reply actions

Hill's a #3 starter and

the Cubs already have a #3 in Lilly... I'd like to see them use Hill to get a #1 or #2 starter, but that's probably wishful thinking. Bring in Kuroda and they may have enough pitching... The offense would be pretty potent w/ the addition of Crawford, and I'm betting there will be more moves to come.

SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!

by CubFaninCA on Nov 13, 2007 5:21 PM CST reply actions

I'd be ok with trading Hill

to get an even better pitcher but other than Santana, I don't think one is realistically available. I don't see the O's trading Bedard unless the trade bowls them over. As for Santana, I don't think the Cubs have enough. Hill and Pie won't do it in my opinion.

I'm against a Hill for Crawford deal. That would mean the back-end of the rotation is Marquis, Gallagher and Marshall. That's too iffy for me. Maybe they sign Kuroda but I don't see him much better than a Marquis. Hill needs to stay.

by rlpete on Nov 13, 2007 9:43 PM CST up reply actions

WHy does every one want

to trade Hill?? he is a solid #3 and potential to be a solid #2 and we control him for the sveral more years, hes a lot cheaper tha Kuroda will be and proably a lot better,(Hill will keep getter better, Kuroda is 32/33 and past his prime{is projected as a #3 is prime})

Keep Hill and trade Marquis or Marshall, NOT HILL!

I propose a toast to the great 100th anniversy gift known to mankind - A CUBS WORLD SERIES VICTORY!

by BigZ 4 Cy on Nov 13, 2007 5:53 PM CST reply actions

Bruce Levine just reported

Cedeno, Marquis and Murton to TB for that infield rake and three bags of David's Jumbo Sunflower Seeds (ranch, jalapeno and regular).

"I got mad hits like I was Rod Carew!"

by lostinthevines on Nov 13, 2007 6:55 PM CST up reply actions

We are going to be all set...

... with infield rakes. Not a moment too soon, with the new sod being installed.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 13, 2007 6:58 PM CST up reply actions

Throw in some fertilizer

and you gotta deal.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Nov 13, 2007 7:00 PM CST up reply actions

re: Bruce Levine just reported

Actually, the latest rumor is that the Cubs are packaging several players for the "Devil" in the Devil Rays name. Apparently, Tampa Bay now considers it expendable.

Ladies and gentlemen, your 2008 Chicago Cubs starting outfield: Soriano-Pie-Fukudome. Let it be.

by daver on Nov 14, 2007 9:57 AM CST up reply actions

LOL

I thought that name was a free agent. But it might be looking for a multiyear deal.

Personally, I think it might have to go to Japan.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 14, 2007 3:32 PM CST up reply actions

re: LOL

Yeah, I guess the devil probably would be a free agent. Or maybe just an agent. (Insert Scott Boras joke here.)

Ladies and gentlemen, your 2008 Chicago Cubs starting outfield: Soriano-Pie-Fukudome. Let it be.

by daver on Nov 14, 2007 3:41 PM CST up reply actions

It's not that I want them to trade Hill.

It's that I wouldn't have a problem with them trading him to get someone like Crawford. It's easy to say to trade Marquis or Marshall but why would you trade them instead of Hill? Because Hill is more valuable, so tell me, why in the world would Tampa not think the same way? It takes players to get players, that's the way it works. If they really are serious about going with Dempster as a starter, plug Kuroda/Marshall/Gallagher/Hart in one of the other spots on the rotation. You've made the starting rotation weaker at the expense of some additional offense, but trading is very rarely one-sided, and hardly ever without any risk. No one WANTS to lose Rich Hill or any of our young players for that matter, but that's simply how it works... you have to give value to get value.

by eamuscatuli1881 on Nov 14, 2007 6:36 AM CST up reply actions

The only way Crawford makes sense

is if Hendry has a separate deal for Pie to bring back a #1/#2 pitcher. It would utterly deplete the farm system, but perhaps he has something like this cooking:
Hill, Soto, and a top prospect
for
Crawford
and
Pie, Patterson, and 2 more top prospects
for
Bedard and Ramon Hernandez

Otherwise, I just don't see how Crawford is enough of an upgrade over Pie or Fukudome to make him worth trading the kind of package it will take to get him. Don't get me wrong - Crawford is much more of a sure thing than Pie, but Bill James' projections have Crawford and Pie at nearly identical OBP/SLG.

Again don't get me worng - I know we don't have Fukudome signed and can't count on it, I'm just saying, spending the $ to insure you do get him makes a lot more sense than trying to pull off two very complicated trades that will also be depleting your farm system.

For that reason I have to conclude that the Crawford trade rumors are either fantasy or a smokescreen as suggested above.

by DGU on Nov 13, 2007 10:27 PM CST reply actions

i agree

when you look at fukudome and crawford and think, who would you rather have? the answer at least for me is obviously crawford, younger, faster, more power potential. but for what it would take to get crawford, i hope we can just sign fukudome and be done with right field and start concentrating on other areas.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Nov 14, 2007 7:15 AM CST up reply actions

I have respect for Bill James

but if he is projecting similar numbers for Pie and Crawford in 08, his computer systems are infected with a bad virus.

He must be baseing it completely on Pie's AAA numbers and ignoring what he did when brought up. Why he would do that, I have no idea.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Nov 14, 2007 7:33 AM CST up reply actions

AAA #s aren't meaningless

There are some players that can hit in AAA but not the majors, but Pie hasn't had nearly enough time to prove he's not one of those players. I think James' projection for Pie is not at all unlikely, but I'm eager to see what the other projection systems say.

The thing about Crawford is that everyone keeps expecting him to add a little more power and this year, instead, he appeared to take a small step back. If Crawford does still develop, then he'll be a great player to have for the next three years. If he doesn't, then, given what people are saying on this board, he's very overrated.

Last year, he hit .315/.355/.466 and given how batting AVG driven that OBP is, there's going to be a year upcoming where he hits .290/.325 AVG/OBP again. How great would that be for the Cubs lineup, if the #1 and #2 hitters each had .325 OBPs.

But they can run!

by DGU on Nov 14, 2007 9:12 AM CST up reply actions

Schizo Cub fans

I haven't read the whole thread because it's getting big and I don't have the time but.... Seems to me that the last few years all I've heard from people are how bad we need Crawford and how bad our players (prospects, young pitchers etc.) are. Now when it comes time to actually think about the ramifications of the trade it's not worth trading our young guys for Crawford. What am I missing? Are our youngins that good? I've seen Crawfords stats, he's worth Rich Hill + some more.

I would love nothing more than to see Crawford in a Cub uniform, but given that Fukudome is available, wouldn't cost anything but money and is probably a better right fielder then he is the better option. I don't suppose it's out of the question that we could get both but I'm sure it's not likely. If we did though, man what an outfield. I'm sure one of the three could play center well enough given the dynamic offense they'd create.

Of course, no matter how many runs they created and how many games they won for us, if we didn't win the World Series it would be the fault of that unconventional center fielder. At least to some Cub fans... ;)

I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey

by pageian on Nov 14, 2007 9:44 AM CST reply actions