Monday Morning Headlines

by Al on Dec 31, 2007 10:18 AM CST in News Comment 48 comments

Today's ESPN.com debate on the qualifications of a potential Hall of Famer features Michael Knisley and John Shea discussing the merits of Andre Dawson. I know how most people here feel about Dawson, but it's interesting reading, particularly this nugget from Knisley:
Where would the drama be -- and so what would happen to the interest level -- if a player was guaranteed a place in the Hall of Fame once he met certain cut-and-dried objective statistical standards?

Well, exactly.
Jose Canseco is writing another book. Working title: "Vindicated". He's going to name more names. Canseco is not a very nice person, but he appears to have been pretty much right on in his first book.
Former Cub Matt Clement is signing with the Cardinals. Or the Indians. Or Pirates. The MLBTR link mentions, in addition to those three, the Royals, Mariners, Blue Jays, Rockies, and Phillies. Should the Cubs be interested? Clement is only one year off rotator cuff surgery. I say no.
Off-topic, but still interesting for Chicago sports fans: Scottie Pippen wants to coach. And Sam Smith of the Tribune says the Bulls should think about it. I agree.

0 recs | Comment 48 comments

Comments

Scottie Pippen

....in the article he mentioned that Michael Jordan never won a championship without him. Why would Robin say that about Batman? Pippen needs money, he should consider getting that money as an assitance and not a head coach.

Afterall, Sandberg wanted a head coach job but when to A ball to start getting some work at it.

Pippen has not even coached a high school team that I know of yet and I coached Pippens kid one winter in a basketball camp and HE SUCKED. Well, he was about 8 or 9 years old......

No to Pippen, yes to Pippen on the bench as a coach, he can replace Pete Myers as the coach that checks out all the cheerleaders.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Dec 31, 2007 10:18 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

It's not about drama

... it's about honoring players who had lifetime achievement in baseball. The induction comes months after the election results are posted.

The system right now is tainted by politics, and it's a shame when deserving players like Ron Santo are omitted.

by ChipSet on Dec 31, 2007 10:24 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

The drama

would come not with the votes, which places the focus on a bunch of cranky sportswriters in place of the players. Instead, the drama would come in the middle of a season when each player gets close to making his numbers.

Plus, I know that Bill Simmons has mentioned this, how cool would it be to have a person named to the Hall of Fame while still playing, and be able to watch them play?

by TC Cubby on Dec 31, 2007 11:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think Jim Palmer

almost fit the last half of that description. If I remember correctly, he attempted a comeback after he had been inducted into Hall of Fame. I don't think it was just a publicity stunt - I think he really thought he could still pitch. But I don't think he made it out of February before realizing that he was toast.

btw - funny HoF story about Palmer. My sister-in-law's uncle is Jim Bunning. Of course her whole family is at Cooperstown the year he's inducted (think he went in with Earl Weaver). So they're on this shuttle bus, rubbing elbows with a bunch of Hall of Famers, and Jim Palmer gets on at the next stop. As he's walking towards a seat, my nephew, all of about 5 or 6 at the time, says "Hey, look! It's the Money Store guy!"

Everyone got a big laugh out of it, especially the other Hall of Famers. Except for Jim - he's wearing this kind of half grimace half grin as he sits down. Oh well, at least my niece didn't say anything about him being a Jockey underwear model...

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Dec 31, 2007 4:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Correct on Palmer.

He tried a comeback with the Orioles in 1991, the year after he was inducted into the HoF. He got shelled in one spring training game, then retired for good.

He was 45 years old.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 31, 2007 10:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Pippen

it would be interesting to see what they think of that over at the Bulls SB Nation site BLOGABULL.com. As for my opinion on it, I think it would be in Scottie's best interest to get some experience coaching before jumping into the fray as a head coach. There is no denying that he was a very talented and very intelligent player, especially on the defensive end of the court, but coaching is an entirely different beast.

AC 00 00 00 - BELIEVE

by mike on Dec 31, 2007 10:40 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Pippen

Scottie was my favorite player on the Bulls. I thought he was very underrated and people don't realize truly how great he was.

But this is going to sound goofy but you know who I thought was tremendously underrated because the media focused on his goofiness?

Dennis Rodman.

We are all waiting for that glorious October night when we finally win it all. Until then we will continue to cheer, never do the wave and hope.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Jan 1, 2008 9:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Canseco

The man needs to hire a PR agent. He could have come out following the Mitchell Report looking credible but he choose to look like a low class piece of trash. He could have taken the high road but instead he comes out with his guns blazing and accuses people on TV w/ no evidence to back his claims up. For about half an hour Canseco looked like the good guy in this whole ordeal but it took little time for him to sully that and just make him look like a man with an agenda.

DmL

by dmlichte on Dec 31, 2007 10:47 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I can almost look past Canseco,

but the fact that the release is scheduled for opening day disgusts me. He is merely a self-promoting money whore. He sullied the game with his using and (I'm assuming) assisting others use PED's and now he is grandstanding for cash at the expense of baseball.

This almost seems similar to the way convicted felons used to secure big book deals to tell how they did it.

by N Oakley on Dec 31, 2007 11:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It would be funny

.....its Ben Gordon refused to go into a game because the Bulls resigned Tony Kucoc and Pippen told the team to get the ball to Kucoc to win the game. Ben Gordons response could be "....but isnt that what you did Scottie"

BTW, "Did Hugh Hollins call a foul......I dont believe this" If Hollins doesnt call that foul 'Pippens' Bulls make the NBA finals and maybe win it without Jordan.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Dec 31, 2007 10:48 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

If anyone knows Pippen, its Paxon.

Will Paxon allow Scottie Pippen to define his term as GM of the Bulls? I doubt it.

by N Oakley on Dec 31, 2007 11:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If Pippen ever got an interview.....

... the first question that should be asked is what would he do with a player who refuses to go in a game like he did. An answer short of taking full responsibility and admitting it was the selfish act of a prima donna jerk who doesn't know he's lucky he played with Jordan gets him thanked for his time and sent on his way.

Santo Forever!

by BeerCub on Dec 31, 2007 12:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Dawson needs to go in.

I remember his MVP season. People doubted his value because the Cubs were, frankly, awful that year. The response-question was "What would they have done without him?"

And the question was both correctly phrased, and reflective of his value as a player.

As for Scottie Pippen, I concur with the above posters who say he needs some assistant experience first. Although he did a nice job of being something of a floor general during his "Jordan years" tenure, let's see how he fares dealing with strategies, injuries, and egos in a less intense spot first.

Of course, even the Bulls' record looks enviable from MN this winter...

by MN exile on Dec 31, 2007 11:10 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

The 1987 Cubs...

... weren't as bad as you think. Though they finished last at 76-85, after winning on September 1 they were 67-64, three games over .500.

They went 9-21 after that date. They wouldn't have made the playoffs (on 9/1 they were fifth, 12 games out of first place, despite the 67-64 record), but if they'd just kept winning at a similar pace the rest of the year they might have won 83 or 84 games.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 31, 2007 11:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Not as bad as I think?

9-21? That's truly an awful finish.

They were not good. Maybe not as bad as some years, that's as far as I'm willing to go. Like I said, like whoever it was who said it originally, where would that club have been without Dawson? It hurts to think about it...

by MN exile on Dec 31, 2007 12:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Just like Theriot

....if Theriot doesnt have a putred September no one is calling for an upgrade.

I love Dawson, I love the fact that in 03' when a coach with the Marlins deep down he had to be routing for the Cubs, although happy with his ring.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Dec 31, 2007 1:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Not quite.

Theriot, without September: .281/.342/.365/.707
Theriot, with September: .266/.329/.351/.680

Those 27 points of OPS aren't quite enough to turn Ryan Theriot from a keeper to a backup. Even if you start cherry-picking his numbers they're not that good, and they're not that good because he's not that good of a hitter.

I would suggest you learn to truly interrupt all stats before using any selective stats. -- cubswin

by cwyers on Dec 31, 2007 2:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He may not

be that good of a hitter but I believe and think he is a good baseball player with a lot of intangibles that help teams win. Hustle, speed, smarts are all part but cannot be measured solely with numbers.

I hope there is an honest competition between him and Cedeno because whereas with Theriot it is what you see is what you get Cedeno has an upside of an all-star and a downside of himself currently.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Dec 31, 2007 2:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Speed is an intangible now?

Speed is very tangible. We can - just as the most obvious example - measure his stolen bases and his caught stealings. We can track his hold and advance rate compared to the league average (basically just the inverse of the arm ratings I posted here a while back). We can tangible all kinds of things relating to speed and hustle. It isn't any more valuable to let out a few extra singles through drive and determination than it is to get those singles by hitting the ball with authority.

Intangibles are things like character, clubhouse presence, team leadership, mentoring young players. And to be quite frank, I'm not sure how much of that sort of thing shows up on TV or is clearly visible from the bandstand and bleachers. But if it happens on a baseball field, it's tangible if you spend enough time with the data and respect the sample size.

I would suggest you learn to truly interrupt all stats before using any selective stats. -- cubswin

by cwyers on Dec 31, 2007 6:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Let out = leg out.

n/t

I would suggest you learn to truly interrupt all stats before using any selective stats. -- cubswin

by cwyers on Dec 31, 2007 6:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

RE: Speed is an intangible now?

"It isn't any more valuable to let out a few extra singles through drive and determination than it is to get those singles by hitting the ball with authority."

Yes it is more valuable. Every player will go through periods during a season when they AREN'T hitting the ball with authority. But a player can always hustle, and perhaps make a fielder misplay a ball, or beat out a throw for a hit.

You seem to know quite a lot about statistical analysis. But honestly, I feel sorry for you. You close your eyes to everything but the stat sheet in front of you. And I imagine that you miss out on a lot of what makes baseball such a great game.

by markleonette on Dec 31, 2007 6:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

But it's still a single.

And there are people who hustle less than Theriot who hit more of the things. And take walks. And hit these things called "doubles" and "home runs" that can really help your team. Some of them are even better defensively, too!

Maybe I do miss out on a lot of what makes baseball a great game. Who knows. What I do know is that winning is fun and I'd like to do more of it.

I would suggest you learn to truly interrupt all stats before using any selective stats. -- cubswin

by cwyers on Jan 1, 2008 12:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Theriot

Not everyone agrees with you, but I do.

Given a choice between a feel-good story who hits .260/.310/.680 and an aloof .320/.390/.950, I'll take the actual production.

Heart and guts and moxie are all great -- but they don't preclude upgrades.

by Shanghai Badger on Dec 31, 2007 8:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I heard a rumor

I heard a rumor that at tne end of 96 his final year when they had Andre Dawson day the Cubs and Marlins were trying to engineer a trade to bring him back but they couldn't on the DL and the league wouldn't do an exception.

He probably never would have played but he would have finished as a Cub.

We are all waiting for that glorious October night when we finally win it all. Until then we will continue to cheer, never do the wave and hope.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Jan 1, 2008 9:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, you're right...

... that was an awful finish. But for five months in '87, the Cubs were at least a little better than .500, not a last-place team. Only that horrid month made them look as bad in retrospect.

Rick Sutcliffe won 18 games that year and finished 2nd in the Cy Young voting to Steve Bedrosian, one of the worst Cy Young selections ever.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 31, 2007 4:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And Sandberg

missed considerable time with an ankle injury. Dunston was also injured for quite a stretch. Until the last month, the 87 team was fun to watch. Maddux, Palmeiro, Moyer, Dave Martinez and others were just coming up and starting to make contributions.

by markleonette on Dec 31, 2007 5:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That was a crazy season

First we had the spring training would they or would they not get Dawson?

Then Sandberg being hurt on June 13th. My best friend's birthday.

Then the beaning on July 7th, my birthday.

Then Dawson homering on his last at bat at home. I still have it on tape.

We are all waiting for that glorious October night when we finally win it all. Until then we will continue to cheer, never do the wave and hope.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Jan 1, 2008 9:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The beaning on July 7

Was that when Dawson chased Eric Show into the dugout? That was pretty exciting. I know it's not politically correct to find bench clearing brawls exciting, but I think that one was. Sutcliffe charging out of the dugout after Show, then Dawson getting up and appearing to leave the field before chasing Show into shallow center and eventually into the Padres dugout. I wish that would have been one of the games in the Cubs Legends DVD collection released last year.

by markleonette on Jan 1, 2008 4:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You're invited to read the

BCB Article on The Hawk in the Top 100 Cubs Of All Time feature.....

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Dec 31, 2007 9:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Nice Video...

...of Fukudome throwing a guy out at first. Here: http://homerderby.com/archives/1671 Let's hope he showcases the same arm in Wrigley!

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Dec 31, 2007 12:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

That's one embarrased batter

not beating out a "hit" to right field - not that it looked like he was jogging.

It will be fun to see Fukudome and Soriano compete for the most outfield assists in MLB.

by ChipSet on Dec 31, 2007 1:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Pippen, if anything...

needs to do his time as an assistant first.

Clement, no thanks unless we were desperate for a 5th or maybe even a 4th starter.

Canseco, where do I begin? Even if his info is accurate, what a jack ass for possibly releasing his book on Opening Day 08...

You ARE freaking out MAN!

by crw89 on Dec 31, 2007 2:49 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Sadly

Canseco will probably die of his past steroid use before his 3rd book comes out.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Dec 31, 2007 2:54 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Everyone has their standards regarding the Hall.

One of mine is this: when the game was on the line, was this the guy I wanted in the box (or in the mound)?

And with regards to Dawson, the answer is NO. He was a superb athlete, no doubt, with rare combinations of talent. Defensively, he was definitely elite. But at the plate, he had too many holes in his swing to be a go-to guy. His performance in the post season is a reflection of this. In 59 total AB his line is .186/.238/.237. I don't believe that's a coincidence. Frankly, Mark Grace has a lot less credentials for the hall and througout their combined tenures with the Cubs if you asked who I wanted at the plate when the game was on the line I wouldn't have hesitated for a second: it was Grace. That, to me, is as telling as anything else. No hall for the Hawk.

by Luis on Dec 31, 2007 3:21 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

No way on Scottie

Without having read what everyone else has posted I run the risk of repetitiveness (nice alliteration there--ay?)But I couldn't log in fast enough to post on this one.

Typically I agree with Al on all things Cub and even your movie reviews; but we're 180 out of phase on Scottie.

Loved him as a player and he could play all aspects of the game, but i simply cannot forget his petulant outburst and refusal to go into a CRUCIAL game when the winning play wasn't designed for him. He was the antithesis of leadership then, and leopards seldom change their spots. I also never viewed him as particularly intelligent. When i look at guys like Larry Brown, Hubie Brown and even guys like Pitino and Avery Johnson; Pippen doesn't fit in.

The Bulls can do MUCH better and hometown loyalty should have no bearing on the decision in my view.

BBWAA's name should be changed to "Power in the hands of Fools"

by cubfever7 on Dec 31, 2007 3:30 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

agreed

Pip only did the team thing when it seemed to suit him. I honestly don't see him being of coach material. It's like wanting Steve Stone to run the Cubs. Sharp, talented guy .. but the presence of mind to be a corporate leader just ain't there with so much of him in the way.

Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!

by cubnational on Jan 1, 2008 5:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't have thought...

... that Reggie Theus would have made a good coach, either, given his "showtime" image during his playing career, and his long time out of the game.

But he's become a good one.

Maybe Pippen needs a stint as an assistant first.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jan 1, 2008 6:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Canseco:

If he really cared about the game more than book sales to begin with, why weren't all names named already?

There is no place like Nebraska - Go Huskers!

by sanantonecub on Dec 31, 2007 5:50 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

No vote for Dawson ffrom me for HOF

He was a great Cub, one of my favorite players, but I think his career falls just short. I wouldn't scream bloody murder were he inducted but he wouldn't get my vote.

by DudeVf11 on Dec 31, 2007 7:50 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Clement

.. what the heck. I say yeah.

1 year, incentive-laden, option for a second. There's enough latent promise in him that it might be workable. I think he's got more going for him now then Prior did.

And interesting how the big three of the 03 rotation all had their arms break down.

Can't be any worse then Dempster starting. I mean Demps can be lights out as a closer when he's got his game on. But he's almost too much of a rollercoaster to have to endure in that role.

Now we want to consider seeing him get the ball for 6 innings? They'd better quadruple the defib station and training at Cubs Park.

Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!

by cubnational on Jan 1, 2008 5:12 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

The Cubs' problem...

...isn't rotation depth or having enough players with upside risk at the back end. It's sorting out the options at the back end, and it wouldn't kill us to get a guy through trade if there's something available that, you know, is actually good. Preferably from the AL.

I would suggest you learn to truly interrupt all stats before using any selective stats. -- cubswin

by cwyers on Jan 1, 2008 7:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed.

Your two key words are, of course, "good" and "available". There aren't too many of those around, and then you have to decide what you can give up to get someone like that.

Not always easy to make good trades.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jan 1, 2008 8:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

When does...

...Uggie Urbina get out of jail? Just kidding, of course. I'd like to see Howry and Marmol in a stright up competition for the closer spot in ST. The loser become the setup guy. Seems like a win-win to me, but I don't like any of the other options out of the bullpen. I'd like to see them bring someone in, but like Al noted, there's a shortage of those guys. Look at the contract Linebrink got from the Sox...there's a shortage of reliable bullpen arms. Hendry miht've been better off keeping Jones around for a bit and, once the Fukudome deal was done, trading him to a team like SD, who needs a RF (or OF help period!)and is flush with relief pitching. Heath Bell would look good in pinstripes...

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Jan 2, 2008 10:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

As for Clement...

...I would say no thanks. He's a streaky pitcher even when he's on, and with the added injury risk, I don't know if even a one-year, incentive-laden deal is an investment worth the risk. I'd rather see one of the young guns get a shot, say a Gallagher, or even getting one last look at Angel Guzman, a pitcher with injury problems to be sure, but with significantly more upside, given his age, than Clement.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Jan 2, 2008 10:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If...

... no one else signed Clement, he would be worth bringing to camp on a minor league invite. But it seems several teams are already interested in giving him a major league contract.

Gallagher, sure. I like Gallagher, who followed his usual pattern last year after being promoted: struggling at first at the higher level. I'd expect him to compete for a fifth-starter job.

Guzman is out till at least midseason and maybe beyond after Tommy John surgery.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jan 2, 2008 10:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Forgot about

the TJ surgury for Guzman. At any rate, I'd rather see a farm system product compete than someone like Clement. Hopefully, Gallagher can make an impact.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Jan 2, 2008 2:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Dome began working out in Nagoya

Not very big news so I will add here...

Dome began working in Nagoya on New Year's Day with former teammate, Akihiro Maeda, a catcher of Dragons.
http://www.chunichi.co.jp/chuspo/article/baseball/news/CK2008010302076651.html

The picture in the article above is in the neighborhood of Nagota Stadium - home of Dragons' firm team as of now, formerly home of Dragons before Nagoya Dome is built in 1997.
http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~tiga/baseball/stadium/nagoya.htm

He will keep working there until he will move up to Hawaii on Jan 7th, with his former teammate Takeshi Yamasaki (a Eagle, formerly a Dragon), then move to Cubs' spring training (in Arizona?).

by dragonsfanatic on Jan 2, 2008 10:56 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Yes...

... spring training is in Arizona. I wonder, knowing that Fukudome will be in Hawaii starting on January 7, maybe he WILL fly to Chicago for the Cubs Convention?

Guess we'll find out soon.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jan 3, 2008 12:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs