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Tuesday Morning Rumor Mill

There's some real quality here, kids. Let's kick it old school.

Is there news on Kosuke Fukudome? Yes! No! Maybe!

Gordon Wittenmeyer says the Cubs arethe frontrunners for Fukudome's services, according to sources on both sides of the negotiations. The other dailies strike slightly less bullish tones, with Bruce Miles highlighting the fact that Fukudome's agent isn't even at the meetings. This shoots down rumors from MLB.com's official rumormongering blog that the Cubs and Joe Urbon had met today. The Trib highlights Hendry's downplaying the subject.

Here's the gist, from my reading: The Cubs are trying to be respectful of the Japanese clubs that are still trying to negotiate with Fukudome, who is not technically a Major League free agent yet. The Cubs may be the front runners, but Fukudome's camp is still trying to narrow down the bidders to begin serious negotiations. The Cubs don't expect to land Fukudome until after the meetings, even if they do land him. And the general feeling is that the Cubs are serious about this and plan on blowing other teams out of the water early with a substantial offer.

On the other hand, Fox Sports' Ken Rosenthal says the Padres have become a serious rival in the Fukudome negotiations. Ugh. Update [2007-12-4 10:29:49 by cwyers]: The NY Post says the Cubs have no interest in Wilkerson or Jenkins; also that an Adam Dunn deal fell through earlier this offseason, presumably before Dunn's option was exercised.

On most days, this would be enough grist for the mill. But today, this just gets us started.

More Plan Bs are leaking out. It's quickly becoming apparent that anyone who doesn't think Josh Hamilton is on the Cubs' radar doesn't know anything about the Cubs' needs this offseason or the way Jim Hendry thinks. P-Sully says the Reds have asked for Sean Marshall in exchange for him. Miles and Wittenmeyer also float the name. Update [2007-12-4 10:30:52 by cwyers]: Another article, from the Reds' side of things.They haven't decided to deal Hamilton yet; Sean Gallagher's name also floats up here. Of course, there's also the wild idea that they're trying to get Lincecum. Riiiight.

Sullivan also says the Cubs could swing a deal for Nate McLouth. I'm not sure how enthusiast I am about that idea, but Sullivan goes on to say that one of Ohman/Pignatiello/Cotts should do the trick. I choose you, Neal Cotts! Apparently the Braves and Rockies are also interested in Will Ohman.

Speaking of the Reds, apparently Dusty Baker feels like he hasn't shredded Prior's arm enough yet; they're asking after him. ESPN's Jerry Crasnick says there's no love lost between him and the Cubs, making a trade more likely. San Diego is still the most-linked team to a Prior trade deal. The Union-Trib (already my least favorite newspaper) says that the Friars could be "dangling" Tim Stauffer and Paul McAnulty. Yay?

Ryan Dempster could become part of the Blue Jay's plans to bring more Canadian players back home.

Sullivan also mentions that the Cubs seem to think that Tyler Colvin could be ready to play center as soon as 2009, and that he'll probably start the year at Iowa.

Oh, and if all this trade talk somehow bores you: Mark Cuban to the rescue! He's still interested, even if nothing's happening on TribCo's end. Jay Marriotti somehow turned this nugget of info into a column that twice crashed my web browser; if Mark Cuban is not enough gasbag for you, Google it yourself.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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By the way...
...The Twins and Red Sox seem to be swapping medical information about two pitchers, who we'll call Sohann Jantana and Lohn Jester, to preserve their anonymity.

Am I allowed to hate the Red Sox yet? Really? Good.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 4, 2007 1:34 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Allowed to Hate the Red Sox?
No, not yet.  But it's close.  

If they go out and do another face-stomp on the Yankees in 2008, then I'll be satisfied, at least for a little while.  Then you'll have my blessing to hate the Carmines.   (No - I did NOT just use a Hawk-ism, did I?  Oh. My. God. I gone.)

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Dec 4, 2007 9:56 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

thanks. i love these diaries.
"If you play more than two chords, you're showing off."--Woody Guthrie

by buckmulligan on Dec 4, 2007 2:32 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I deleted
my diary because yours is so much better.

My comments carried over are "Pity the poor employee.  Dusty wants to finish the job."

And don't forget that Soriano speaks Japanese and Piniella was Ichiro's manager.  That gave him a bit of fame on the other side of the Pacific.

The artist formerly known as JoshinLA

by Josh77 on Dec 4, 2007 3:09 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Let me add
Crasnick is saying that Marquis is on the block.  I don't think that shocks anyone, but it would be nice if someone would take him off our hands, even if we have to eat some salary.  (And we shouldn't have to eat it all.  He wasn't terrible last season.  But apparently he and Sweet Lou don't get along.)

I'd like to see Dempster go back to Canada.  As much as I like the guy, he's pitching on borrowed time.  The league is going to catch up to him, if not this year, then next.  And we've got too many guys in the minors who could pitch as well as he could.

The artist formerly known as JoshinLA

by Josh77 on Dec 4, 2007 3:17 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Also
The Dodgers are not pursuing Fukudome, or at least they say they aren't.  That's good news, as the Dodgers would have been tough competition.
The artist formerly known as JoshinLA

by Josh77 on Dec 4, 2007 3:26 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Will Ohman...
... for any warm body would be fine with me.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 4, 2007 3:56 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Good One Al.
I am glad you have seen the light on this "LOOGY".
Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 4, 2007 8:19 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

On Hamilton
I posted this on the Josh Hamilton thread as well, but...

I don't think of Hamilton as strictly a Plan B.  THe CUbs have a glut of ML-ready or nearly ready back of the rotation starters such as Marshall.  I like Marshall, I really do, but I also like Hill, Gallagher, et al..  So, if you can trade Marshall for a guy like Hamilton, Go for it.

I would still go hard after Fukudome, creating options for Jim and Lou.

  1. Pie could become a valuable trading chip
  2. Soriano could move back to 2B (imagine the OF defense of Hamilton, Pie, Fukudome!) with DeRosa moving into super sub-role, spelling Hamilton/Pie/A-Ram/Soriano, or, becoming a trade chip himself.
Eamus Ursuli!

by WGNstatic on Dec 4, 2007 7:27 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I don't see
Soriano ever playing second base on a regular basis again.
This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.

by HectorVillanueva on Dec 4, 2007 7:41 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Not so sure
I am really not so certain.  

If you look at his fielding stats at 2B on baseball-reference.com, they are not all that bad (too many errors, but better than average range factor).  His career stats, as well as his 2 seasons in texas, suggest that he will make about 4 or so more errors than an average 2B, but will get to a few more balls as well, so things balance out some what.  

DeRosa, on the flip side, is at league average for fielding %, but below average in terms of range factor.

Add to this that Lou publicly speculated on that possibility a year ago, and I would not be so certain.

Eamus Ursuli!

by WGNstatic on Dec 4, 2007 7:56 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think I'm ready to see Soriano at 2B
but I would love the acquisition of Hamilton.  And McLouth, for that matter.  Although he's risky in different ways than Pie, Hamilton's ceiling is probably every bit as high.  Pie can be part of a package for pitching to possibly replace Marshall.  OF of Soriano, Pie, Fukodome, with McLouth (L) and Murton (R) in reserve.  That works for me.

If Soto is for real, that could give you plus offense everywhere except SS, with very good defense.

by davidalanu on Dec 4, 2007 7:45 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly
I'm very wary of Marshall's health, and would gladly move him for Hamilton.  

So, the Cubs are rumored to be looking to deal Marquis, have been shopping Dempster around, and are open to trading Marshall.  Yet we don't hear anything about them acquiring another starter.

I guess a rotation of Zambrano, Lilly, Hill, Gallagher, and one of the above three is possible, with Hart and Holliman waiting in the wings.  

Geo! (clap-clap-clap) Soto! (clap-clap-clap)

by zambranofan on Dec 4, 2007 7:46 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Pitching
I think you can be just as wary of Hamilton's health as Marshall's but I'd definitely do that trade.  The thing about Hamilton is that you will need a good 4th OF to back him up because of the health risk.  If he's the RF, you've got Murton.  If he's your CF and you trade Pie... well, you'll either hope Fuld/Colvin can do it or you'll want to trade for another good backup.

The reason, I think, we aren't hearing anything about the Cubs' pursuit of another starter is that they aren't certain they can do it.  I think they definitely want to, as Perotto said in his Every Given Sunday column, but they don't want to advertise that they are seeking to in case they fail to acquire one.

by DGU on Dec 4, 2007 8:38 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Soriano Can Play Second...
... only in an emergency.  I think that happened once this past year.  IIRC, it was like a 13-inning game?

Soriano is staying put in the outfield.

by initram on Dec 4, 2007 9:40 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think...
...Prior would drag out his rehab as long as possible if he were traded to the Reds.  I still wonder if he has an inherent distrust of the Cubs due to their shoddy medical team.

by jolietconvict on Dec 4, 2007 7:31 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Could it be
that the Prior-to-the-Reds rumor is a negotiating tactic?  If the Cubs have an actual offer from the Reds, they can say to Prior - "Sign the two year deal or get traded to your favorite manager. There's no way we're sending our employee to SD."

by DGU on Dec 4, 2007 8:39 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't see it
I don't see the Cubs trading Prior within the division for the odd chance that he might regain his form.  It's not as if the Cubs would be getting a lot back in return, so there's little upside and a whole lot of risk.  

by NO100 on Dec 4, 2007 9:18 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i really hope they don't trade him within the div.
that can only be bad.
"If you play more than two chords, you're showing off."--Woody Guthrie

by buckmulligan on Dec 4, 2007 10:25 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Fukudome!
Please do it Jim. Enough has been said about him but I disagree with writers about him being a middle of the order guy. He'd be great in the #2 slot.

On Prior, I would much rather the Cubs talk him into an '09 team option than dealing him or letting him walk after '08. If after all this time, the Cubs deal him and he does well somewhere else, I would be very disappointed. It's not like the Cubs will get a whole lot for him now. Take the chance his value will grow after '08. If it does, the Cubs have another starter or more value in a trade.

Hamilton? Got him via rule-5 then dealt him. Now it would be Marshall to get him back? That's too much to give up for a guy who seems like another injury-prone OF. No thanks...

McLouth..., gotta think about that one if Fukudome isn't here.

What can the Cubs get for Dempster from the 'jays?

The fact that they haven't dealt him or Marquis (and taking a financial hit) yet says they're not sure they'll get someone to replace him. Unlike Jones, who was dealt right away leads me to believe Jim is confident on getting an upgrade soon.

Cuban? Ain't gonna happen. Good ol' boys won't let him in.

Our grandparents used to say, "I hope the Cubs win the Series before I die". Now the teenagers are saying it.

by blackhawk24 on Dec 4, 2007 8:06 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

marshall
straight up for Hamilton works for me. I get the impression Lou doesn't like Marshall, and I don't think Marshall really fits into the plans for next year.

If the Cubs weren't loaded with starting pitching options, I'd feel different.

by elgato on Dec 4, 2007 9:35 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

hamilton
if the cubs are serious about getting a legitimate lefty power source to hit cleanup, then id trade sean marshall for hamilton right now and forget about the name kosuke fukudome.

hamilton had a homer ever 15 at bats last year, good on-base, his OPS+ of 131 was better than both aramis and soriano, good defense.  seriously, he'll be a better offensive force than fukudome next year if im betting money, and wont eat up any payroll.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Dec 4, 2007 8:08 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

colvin
intersting you mention the cubs view him as a center fielder possibly as soon as 2009...was this a slipup on their part, on your part, or are they actually considering him for center field in two years.  i just read a blurb that teams inquiring about pie were told the cubs are keeping pie as their center fielder for next year, this would seem to contradict that.
Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Dec 4, 2007 8:10 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

The quote from Hendry on Colvin...
per Paul Sullivan's article was that they envision Colvin being able to play all three spots.  Therefore, I don't think it contradicts Pie being the everyday CF.  At least from Sullivan's article there was no implication that the Cubs are grooming him to take over CF in 2009.  I don't read too much into the Colvin thing either way.  Could be that they view him in CF.  Could be that they view him in RF.  Could be that they're just talking up his stock for a potential trade.

by SouthernCub on Dec 4, 2007 9:19 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the Cubs have finally learned
how to talk up their prospects in the press. They're doing it with Pie too. This gets other teams thinking of these guys as major league ready or close to it.
"It's a long fly to left field. And there it goes. Ahhh crap." -- Harry Caray

by cubz1963 on Dec 4, 2007 10:53 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Reply Colvin...
Hendry said ANY OF POSITION. I did not read "CF" specifically at any time. Who said this?

On McLouth -

McLouth=Deion Sanders?!

top comparable four players by age for McLouth(BR):

Jim King (971)
Paul O'Neill (967)
Sandy Amoros (966)
Deion Sanders (964)

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 4, 2007 8:16 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

i read
"Sullivan also mentions that the Cubs seem to think that Tyler Colvin could be ready to play center as soon as 2009,"

either way, it doesnt matter, the important thing is that its pretty damn cool the cubs think so highly of colvin already, and plan to start him in iowa, thats exciting.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Dec 4, 2007 8:20 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Reply...
HIS opinion -

"the Cubs seem to think..."

NOT exact quote.

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 4, 2007 9:30 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah...
...sometimes I'm prone to editorialize just a bit, and I view Colvin as a center fielder offensively right now. Probably shouldn't have slipped that in there.
FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 4, 2007 9:31 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

griffey
as of this morning, im off the fuku train.  if the cubs actually think colvin could be ready in 2009, i dont see the need to pay fukudome 30 mil for two years in which he'd be blocking colvin.

obviously, its hard to simply project your 2009 lineup before the 2008 season begins, however, a couple of things.  im sure fuku would be great for the cubs, and ill still be excited if they get him, but if the cubs are looking for a middle of the order power threat, he's not going to be that player for them.

thats why i say, see what it takes to get griffey.  i cant imagine he'd cost a hell of a lot, and he would actually fill the role the cubs are looking for.

griffey would make this team better in the short run, and give the cubs a chance to be more competitive in the long run.  

i know i know, "he'll get injured!!!!" but check out his at bats the past three years: 491, 428, 528.  Not bad, last year you'd take every year.  If the worst happens, then maybe colvin is looking good at iowa, and you bring him up to platoon with murton.  

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Dec 4, 2007 8:32 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

If we can move Fukudome
or Colvin later for some other hole that comes up in our system, all the better, no?  What if Colvin slows down and never gets to the big leagues?

by IllinoisCubs on Dec 4, 2007 12:55 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Whoa
The Cubs could get Hamilton for Sean Marshall?  Where do I sign?  That's is a no-brainer.  

Similarly, McLouth for one of the aforementioned LH middlers?  Done.  

Those two deal would greatly improve the OF and the bench without creating significant holes anywhere.  These are the types of deals that really improve your club.  

Do them both....now.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. -- Lee Constantine Elia, 1983.

by krummy12 on Dec 4, 2007 8:33 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

If those are real offers...
I'd wholeheartedly agree.  We have a wealth (some might say logjam) of young, back of the rotation starters.  An OF of Soriano, Pie, Hamilton, with fill-ins in McClouth and Murton give a complete OF rotation with a RH and LH bat on the bench.  It would address the need for a LH bat in the middle of the order (Hamilton).  And it wouldn't deplete our pitching stock.

Of course, those are big ifs.

by SouthernCub on Dec 4, 2007 9:23 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

There is no way..
...that all the Reds are asking in return for Hamilton is Marshall. My guess is they want both Marshall and Gallagher.
"Thanks bro, see ya later" Tony Larussa to Jupiter cops after being informed he was asleep in the middle of an intersection.

by lemon20pie on Dec 4, 2007 9:26 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

again
undervaluing marshall.  marshall is younger than hamilton, has progressed well in the majors, and could immediately enter a rotation.  i dont think its unrealistic that a fair deal would be marshall for hamilton.  and i doubt the cubs would even think about marshall and gallagher both for him.
Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Dec 4, 2007 9:35 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Overvaluing Hamilton, too...
...who has injury concerns (I think he made two DL trips last year).
FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 4, 2007 9:37 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Injuries
And Marshall is hardly a portrait of health considering his shoulder injury of 2006.  On top of it, he's a SP which can hardly be considered a position that regularly stays injury free.  Risks are everywhere.  With Marshall's rather limited upside and Hamilton's legitimate bat, this is a deal that would improve the Cubs.  And since none of us are in the Reds front office it is silly to speculate as to whether they believe they are getting fleeced or are the fleecies.
Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. -- Lee Constantine Elia, 1983.

by krummy12 on Dec 4, 2007 9:44 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Not arguing that...
...just saying that asking for Marshall AND Gallagher gets you laughed out of the room unless you're offering something reeeeal good. Starting pitching is prized this offseason.
FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 4, 2007 9:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Not to jump all over Hamilton, but...
its not just the injury concerns.  He has, admirably, kept himself clean long enough to get to the majors, but he has addiction demons that most with that history have to battle every day.  See Steve Howe, Darryl Strawberry, Doc Gooden, etc.

Like it or not, these facts impact his value.

by N Oakley on Dec 4, 2007 9:47 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll partially agree
 I think you're right that the Reds know that Marshall + Gallagher is too much. But I'm sure they asked for that combo.

 But I still don't think all they're asking for is Marshall straight up, like some reports are reporting.

 If that is the case, then I would definitely be skeptical of something with Hamilton that only the Reds know about. I also highly doubt that the Reds would be giving the Cubs a "discount" for giving them Hamilton in the first place.

"Thanks bro, see ya later" Tony Larussa to Jupiter cops after being informed he was asleep in the middle of an intersection.

by lemon20pie on Dec 4, 2007 9:39 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Marshall's ceiling is a #4 starter
 Well, maybe a #3 starter on the Reds and Hamilton's ceiling is a perrenial All Star.

 Sure they're some risks with Hamilton, but it still wouldn't justify or equal the deal being for Marshall straight up.

 It'd have to be Marshall and maybe Piggy or Petrick or some mid level pitching prospect.

"Thanks bro, see ya later" Tony Larussa to Jupiter cops after being informed he was asleep in the middle of an intersection.

by lemon20pie on Dec 4, 2007 9:44 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

the difference
though, is that marshall is already a #4 starter, while hamilton still only projects to be a possible all star.  i would agree though that the reds might begin by asking for a little more.
Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Dec 4, 2007 9:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

totally agree
Marshall for hamilton is not a fair deal.  injury prone (I believe) OF for a lefty starter who is young and improving IMO.

rather keep Marshall...major league experience is not an easy thing to match with pitching.  Also, he has been moderately successful at this level too.

MMMMM...Golden shrimp and chicken combo from Ron of Japan!

by Kinky Reggae on Dec 4, 2007 10:39 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

exactly...
If Hamilton had all that upside potential they would have kept him when they got him on the rule-5 draft.
Our grandparents used to say, "I hope the Cubs win the Series before I die". Now the teenagers are saying it.

by blackhawk24 on Dec 4, 2007 10:40 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You just don't get it...
They never had the opportunity to keep him.  The Cubs made a deal with the Reds to select "someone" they wanted.  The Cubs never knew the name of the player until just before they selected him when the Reds handed them the name.  If the Cubs would have decided to void the trade at that point, they would have zero credibility with any team wanting to make a trade with them.  
See the Cubs 2008 schedule at http://ignarski.tripod.com/sched2008.html

by kaseyi on Dec 4, 2007 10:55 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Furthermore
In order for the Cubs to have made that deal, they would have already done thier due diligence to know that they didn't want to draft anyone at that spot.  

by NO100 on Dec 4, 2007 3:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

So, let me get this straight.
 You're saying you wouldn't trade Marshall for Hamilton straight up?

 A 5th starter in Marshall for a Power LH RF with on OBP of 270 and an ops of 922? What part of that swap don't you like?

 If that's the deal, Marshall straight up,the Cubs would've already done this deal and Hendry would've even included that Baker give him a swirlie.

"Thanks bro, see ya later" Tony Larussa to Jupiter cops after being informed he was asleep in the middle of an intersection.

by lemon20pie on Dec 4, 2007 10:44 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

.370 OBP
 and putting up great numbers considering it's the first time he played ball in over 3 years and doing it at the ML level, is almost astounding. No, it's not almost astounding, it is absolutely unequivacably astounding.

 Marshall for Hamilton straight up is an absolute no brainer, for the Cubs. None.

"Thanks bro, see ya later" Tony Larussa to Jupiter cops after being informed he was asleep in the middle of an intersection.

by lemon20pie on Dec 4, 2007 10:47 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You are REALLY discounting the risks...
You present the argument as though we'd definitely be getting a .922 OPS guy out of it.  Well, that may not be accurate.  Hamilton has had one nice season.  But even during that nice season, he had two extended DL trips.  And on top of that, there's the concern that he could relapse to drugs at any time, and ruin his career again.  And who knows if the 300 AB sample is even really representative for him?

I'm willing to take the gamble, given our pitching depth and supposed need for a potential impact bat.  But it's not a no-brainer as you suggest.  If we were pretty confident we're getting a .922 OPS guy, that'd be one thing.  But when you factor in the potential for being a fluke, the potential for injury, and the potential for drug relapse, it's VERY much a risk with Hamilton.

by SouthernCub on Dec 4, 2007 10:49 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I am saying just that.
After a season of marquis, and all these potential trades out there, marshall is someone I would only trade in a package for someone more talented.  

The problem with your assessment is that you are basing it on his one real season back from the problems he had previously.  In the steroid era, I would be leary of his improvements and would not want to dump a young starter (lefty) that may become very good.  

ESPECIALLY when we are supposedly gung ho after Fukudome.

Yes noo brainer, to reject this proposal IMO.

MMMMM...Golden shrimp and chicken combo from Ron of Japan!

by Kinky Reggae on Dec 4, 2007 10:52 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough.
I staunchly disagree, but respect your opinion. I personally think that the talent of Hamilton far outweighs the risk of him relapsing and only having to give up Marshall. Marshall is a fine pitcher, but he's a pitcher and Hamilton potentially addresses the Cubs needs.

 As far as the risk of him doing steroids, there's a risk in any of these players using steroids. Does the league in Japan test for steroids?

and with Hamilton's drug history, wouldn't he be tested more than most? Wouldn't he actually be the safest bet to not do steroids, if he was indeed tested more than most, because of his past with drugs?

"Thanks bro, see ya later" Tony Larussa to Jupiter cops after being informed he was asleep in the middle of an intersection.

by lemon20pie on Dec 4, 2007 11:01 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I hear ya on the testing but I imagine
that the league can only test people equally unless perhaps they have already tested positive for roids.

I also respect your opinion and I think most people agree with you, I just like Marshall and think he will get a lot better.  Hamilton, well, not so sure he isn't, as someone else said, a fluke.

MMMMM...Golden shrimp and chicken combo from Ron of Japan!

by Kinky Reggae on Dec 4, 2007 11:06 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Errata
I believe Hamilton is on record saying that he never took steroids and never understood the temptation to do so.  The drugs he took were cocaine.  Check his story in his own words:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2926447

I also disagree with the idea that Marshall's ceiling is to be a 4th starter.  Marshall has pitched very well in very short spans.  His season ERA was the same as Rich Hill's.  Marshall doesn't have the stuff Hill does, but he seems to know a thing or two about pitching.  If Marshall could stay healthy - a HUGE IF - I believe he could do much better than be a 4th starter.  So, I'm defining "ceiling" as what he could be at his best.  Sometimes you are happy to take a lower-ceiling player with less risk or injury concern and Marshall's injury concern is so great that he may end up a reliever, which means his value comes down quite a bit from what I perceive to be his ceiling.

by DGU on Dec 4, 2007 12:33 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay wait...
so Marshall's oblique strain or whatever minor injuries last season qualify him as a serious injury risk?

I have to disagree.

As far as Hamilton goes, hmmm...I have never heard of someone who is guilty denying their actions or even the inclination to commit such actions...

MMMMM...Golden shrimp and chicken combo from Ron of Japan!

by Kinky Reggae on Dec 4, 2007 2:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Injury Risk
Marshall's inability to pitch a complete season once in his entire pro career (minor leagues and majors) qualifies him as a pitcher you can't count on for more than 100 IP.  I hope he pulls through it and stabilizes his health, but to bank on it happening regularly, I have to see it at least once.

As for Hamilton - I'm not sure where the confusion came in that he is connected to steroids.  He's not.  He used cocaine.  That was the "drugs" he was on.  It was not a performance enhancer.  Quite the opposite.  I mean, I guess he could also have used steroids, but no one is accusing him of that outside of a few posters on this board.

by DGU on Dec 4, 2007 3:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Idea..
lets just say for a minute that we do indeed get Fukudome and we go into the season with pie as our everyday center fielder. IMO i don't  think he is nearly ready. my question is does anyone else think we need a insurance policy?

the reason i bring this up is i've had my eye on a cheap low risk insurance policy all day long. who?
Steve Finley. yes he's 42 yrs old and hasn't performed well the last couple of years but from his interviews and by looking at him, he seems to be in great shape. his spirits and attitude about where he is at in his career seem to be good.

how about a measly million w/ some incentives for 1 year. i might get flamed for this idea but it seems like a cant lose deal.

p.s. i gotta gut feeling something good for us is coming really soon. at least i'm refreshing every baseball site every 5 seconds with espn on the big screen hoping so!! go cubbies

GO CUBS GO!!!!!

by cubsluver22 on Dec 4, 2007 8:40 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Ugh.
Pie IS ready. He has raked AAA pitching for a year and a half. All he needs is consistent playing time.

Finley's not 42. He'll be 43 in March. His last good year was 2004 (that's FOUR years ago). Ugh, ugh, ugh. Run away, run FAR away.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 4, 2007 8:48 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

This isn't insurance.
Insurance guards you against risk. Steve Finley is a whole hell of a lot of risk with almost nonexistent upside.
FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 4, 2007 9:09 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Pie has a lot to work on in his swing
 for someone who is "ready". If he's ready, then he's not going to be a very good MLB player.
"Thanks bro, see ya later" Tony Larussa to Jupiter cops after being informed he was asleep in the middle of an intersection.

by lemon20pie on Dec 4, 2007 9:24 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What does that have to do with the fact...
...that Steve Finley is washed up?
FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 4, 2007 9:28 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And...
Pure speculation, but is Finley a Mitchell Report risk?
"These are terrible times, and I shouldn't joke about them." --Warren Zevon

by ExNorthsider on Dec 4, 2007 9:57 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Fukudome can play CF
Pie is ready.  He can bat 8th.

The reason Pie didn't get to play last year is because we fell 8 1/2 games back.  The Brewers got off to a 24-10 start.  We didn't have time to wait for Pie.  This year we will be much better and no team in the Central is going to be that hot.  Pie just needs to see MLB pitching everyday.  Look at other prospects first 200 at-bats.  It usually isn't very pretty.  

by IllinoisCubs on Dec 4, 2007 12:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Too bad Hendry...
didn't hang on to Hamilton, but hindsight is always 20/20. I think I'd trade Marshall for him, just a little concerned about the injury factor. It's always great to hear about stories like his.

Prior, if we can't get the 09 option, I would try to trade him to the AL. Of course depending on what we get in return. I just have this feeling that he's gonna be back in full form and would hate to have him haunt us.

You ARE freaking out MAN!

by crw89 on Dec 4, 2007 9:22 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

edit...
didn't know the details on the rule 5 draft...since we basically made the pick for the Reds.
You ARE freaking out MAN!

by crw89 on Dec 4, 2007 9:25 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Hamilton...
... wasn't Hendry's to "hang on to". The Cubs agreed to make a pick on the Reds' behalf and were told who to take. If they had reneged on that deal, can you imagine the bad blood?

That just isn't done.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 4, 2007 9:25 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah...
did a little more reading on the rule 5 draft...the bad blood would flow like a river, especially with Dusty at the helm now.
You ARE freaking out MAN!

by crw89 on Dec 4, 2007 10:04 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

according to mlbtradrerumors.com
"Cubs Send Infante and Ohman To Braves
According to Bruce Levine of ESPN Radio 1000, the Cubs have sent lefty reliever Will Ohman and infielder Omar Infante to the Braves for righty reliever Jose Ascanio."

by 10 14 23 26 on Dec 4, 2007 9:26 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

TRADE MADE Infante and Ohman to Braves for Ascanio
Cubs Send Infante and Ohman To Braves
According to Bruce Levine of ESPN Radio 1000, the Cubs have sent lefty reliever Will Ohman and infielder Omar Infante to the Braves for righty reliever Jose Ascanio.

by mossey12 on Dec 4, 2007 9:27 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

That's a nice little deal...
...gives us some salary flexibility and frees up a spot on the roster. Infante wasn't going to play a major role on the team, and Ohman had worn out his welcome.

I'd like the deal better if I knew anything about Ascanio, his minor league numbers are nice but nothing special.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 4, 2007 9:36 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Doesn't this free up TWO spots?
Asciano is joining the 40-man roster?

by IllinoisCubs on Dec 4, 2007 12:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes
Asciano is joining the 40-man roster?

Yes - he was on the 40-man for the braves, so we will need to be added to the 40-man for the cubs.

by big_lowitzki on Dec 4, 2007 3:09 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

SALARY DUMP!!!
JJ + Oh-Man! + Infante  = MiLB 22 y.o. pitcher
Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 4, 2007 9:28 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Not all 3 for Acaino
 The Cubs got Infante for Jones.
"Thanks bro, see ya later" Tony Larussa to Jupiter cops after being informed he was asleep in the middle of an intersection.

by lemon20pie on Dec 4, 2007 9:33 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Might as well be though
Super Mario Galaxy! Get it NOW!

by TheBeerBaron on Dec 4, 2007 9:48 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

More accurately...
Jones and Ohman for Ascanio.  Infante was just the middleman.  We never had Jones, Ohman, and Infante.  The ultimate salary dump is Jones' salary (minus whatever we're paying to the Tigers) + Ohman's salary.

by SouthernCub on Dec 4, 2007 9:56 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Not Just $$...
... but you had two players that no longer fit.

Jones didn't want to be here, although he took his shots like a man and made the best of the situation.  I wish him luck - I gained a lot of respect for him, and I think he helped carry the team after the ASB last year.  $5M (less $2M), or $3M in the back pocket.

Ohman cooked his own goose with the tactics he played about pitching hurt.  $1.6M savings there.

Infante never really hit payroll, right?  Another $1.3M there.  Also, we saved in not having to print up any jerseys for him!

If Ascanio makes the major league club, we're looking at league minimum.

Yes, we saved almost $6M (a little over $5.5 if we include ML min for Ascanio).  More importantly, we resolved some of our problems.

by initram on Dec 4, 2007 9:53 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

nitpicky
but we cant save money on infante if we never had him...

essentially we lost jones + ohman for ascanio

which means we saved about 4-4.5 million

the utter lack of a plan regarding offseasons is what bothers me so much

by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 4, 2007 10:04 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Ahh...
...yer right.

I should have said $3M saved from Jones less the $1.3M to Infante.  Then, we get the $1.3 back.

So, it's basically $3M (Jones) + $1.6 (Ohman), or $4.6.

You caught be double-dippin'.  Still good wiggle room.

by initram on Dec 4, 2007 10:37 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

We didn't "lose" Jones and Ohman...
... since neither wanted to be here, and neither was useful.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that there isn't a "plan". What would YOUR plan be?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 4, 2007 10:37 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Al
we lost them from the payroll, they were here yesterday and on our payroll

unfortunately the payroll is not impacted by whether you would like to play for the team or not, it is impacted only by how much you are paid.

And again its the lack of a BIG PICTURE plan for rolling years in the future, we have not had one which is why we are repeatedly (almost every off-season) looking to get OUT from underneath contracts we've signed just a few seasons ago

this year its Marquis, Jones, Dempster, etc

the Cubs always have a plan for THAT season but the plan is ONLY for THAT SEASON

they dont consider the consequences of tying up all these assets in long-term high paying contracts.

We give players all the leverage in negotiations by giving them full no trade clauses and player options while still paying them above market value.

This short-sightedness causes us to have to be reactive when the players contract is winding down rather than be proactive in leaving ourselves the options (whether they be player options or not handing out no trade clauses to everyone)

these are all examples of no long term plan being put into place. The plan is formed at the end of the season and put in place for the next season, with little consideration of its impact in the future

so yes we have a plan, the plan is overspend at all costs for Fukudome and shed all salary we can to make sure we can fit that into our budget

but how does that impact the future??? How does having Lilly, Aramis, DLee, Soriano, Fukudome, Zambrano all signed to 12 million + contracts with no trade clauses impact our financial flexibility down the road???? Especially when the majority of these players are past the age of 30

if you have a 115 million payroll how does signing all these guys to long-term  backloaded contracts impact you down the road?????

the plans the cubs put in place are short-term in nature, because nobody knows if they're going to have a job in 3-4 years and all they care about is feeding an immediate urge to try to win right now

that's not a long-term plan, that's putting a plan together for one season and one season alone

and this is exactly how they've acted since the pressures of coming so close in 2003 have impacted their thinking. They've focused each offseason on targeting 1 or 2 pieces without any idea of how they're going to fit 2-4 years down the road when they're still under contract

by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 4, 2007 10:57 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Was 8 years for Soriano short term?
Or how about the extensions for Aramis, Lee, and Zambrano.  Three years for starting pitchers for 3 is fairly long term.

You are over generalizing things.  Some moves are short term but not all.

MMMMM...Golden shrimp and chicken combo from Ron of Japan!

by Kinky Reggae on Dec 4, 2007 11:04 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

ummm..
yeah they were "short-term" planning

as in we needed these guys RIGHT NOW to contend

otherwise how on earth can you rationalize locking up 60% of our estimated 2010 payroll
in Lilly (12), Zambrano (18), DLee (13), Aramis (16), Soriano (18) on 5 guys who are going to be ages 34, 29, 24, 32, 34 during that season

that's 77 million on an estimated 125-130 Million Payroll

(using past budgets as a guidepoint, usually we have a %5 increase each year)

how is that "long-term" thinking? Paying guys over the age of 30 increasing contracts and locking up 60-65% of your payroll????

wouldn't that classify as short-term thinking? concerning yourself with only trying to win RIGHT NOW

by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 4, 2007 11:27 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Ummm...
Where did you get this figure?:

"otherwise how on earth can you rationalize locking up 60% of our estimated 2010 payroll..."

You have no clue with the new owners what the payroll will be in 2010.

By then these players may be total bargains, and the payroll might be $160MM

You just don't know unless you can PROVE otherwise.

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 4, 2007 12:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

all i can do
is go based on the past

its all we have right now, and its all Jim Hendry and the front office would be able to operate on right????

I mean if we have a pretty consistent 5-10% hike every year in payroll, cant they only assume that this will remain

the Cubs cant predict how much payroll will be allowed by the new management either right? So dont they have to operate as if things would stay the same until things officially change???

That's what i'm going off of

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/chicago-cubs_112114177768677294.html

notice a pretty steady 5-10% increase in payroll each year, which would rise like this (assuming 7.5%)

2008 =  107 Million
2009 =  116 Million
2010 =  125 Million

sure we can say they'll have a 160 million payroll in 2010 and it COULD happen

but you're going to tell me Jim Hendry is operating under the assumption we'll have a 160 Million Payroll then?????

by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 4, 2007 12:09 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

But that's like saying
The Tribune based their Cubs salaries on what the Wrigleys did in years past.

You can run your Ivy League numbers anyway you want and my argument is just as valid as yours.

There is simply no assumption that is accurate unless you KNOW: 1. who the new owners will be in 2010, and 2. What they will choose to spend on players. Perhaps you may want to analyze the Red Sox owners and compare the ratio of salary increases before and after the ownership change, and also search blogs to see what people such as yourself speculated about how much the new owners would be spending. You seem to have a  lot of time on your hands to compare your minutae of stats.

Unless you have proof, as I state, my assumptions are as valid as yours.

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 4, 2007 12:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

so what do you think
Jim Hendry is basing his payroll off of?

because my entire argument here is that the Cubs arent developing and sticking to a long-term organizational philosophy on how to build a team

as opposed to putting a plan together each year that acts independently from previous years and only for the upcoming season

if you're contesting that argument, feel free to provide some explanation of how a GM could have a long-term organizational plan without having an idea of the payroll limitations?

and if you think Hendry does have a long-term idea of the payroll limitations of the mystery new ownership, feel free to explain how in the world he'd have any idea who's going to be hired and how much payroll they'd allow

by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 4, 2007 12:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I read through this whole thing...
... Mr. DartmouthFan, and I still don't know what YOU would do differently. So let's hear it.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 4, 2007 1:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Al
and i still havent seen you come up with a defense for this organization having a long-term plan.

What would i do now???? or what would i have done a few years ago????

because if i was a GM now my hands are completely tied by the long-term deals we've signed in the past AND the no trade clauses handed out with them.

Soriano, Aramis, DLee, Lilly, Zambrano are all tied in for the next 3 years with no trade clauses, so we've tied up:

so here are our unmovable committments:

2008 = $65 Million
2009 = $75 Million
2010 = $75 Million

These guys are all at the edge of their primes, so since we can't move them we have to take a shot at winning these next 3 seasons....

So....my plan for this year would probably be similar to the plans of Hendry, but i'll outline it anyway, despite it missing the broadscale point (analyzing the past)

but here goes:

Fukudome is the obvious target and the first part since he fits some holes they're trying to fill

Only sign Fukudome if it costs 10-12 Million for 3-4 years, anything else is too pricey and too restrictive for future years

that would put us at committments to 6 players at:

2008 = 75-77 Million
2009 = 85-87 Million
2010 = 85-87 Million

that leaves me with the current rest of the 08 payroll at right about the projected 115 Million we've talked about. So i'd need to shed current salary to free up any more moves.

I'd trade Marquis for almost anything, market him heavily as a cheaper/shorter committment to the Kyle Lohse and Carlos Silva's of the world, hopefully you get a lower level prospect for him and in the process shed the 6 Million this year, but more importantly the 9 Million in 2009.

If you can market Dempster this way as well, move him if not he should be in the pen as a 6th-7th inning guy. The committment to him is 5.5 Million for this season and this season alone, so you can roll the dice, hope he has a good season and then Elias ranks him as a Type B and someone signs him

I'd fill out the rotation using Marshall as our #4 and Gallager as our #5. Hart should be the long man.

The pen should be set with:

Wood, Howry, Marmol as the high leverage guys. Dempster, Wuertz, Eyre as the low leverage guys and Hart as the long-man.

Stick Pie at CF and watch him blossom, don't yank him around. Just let him play and he'll be fine. Open up a competition at SS for Ronnie and Theriot, Theriot would be the favorite to start but Ronnie should get a chance since his natural talent and ceiling is certainly higher than Riots

Our lineup would be set with:

Soriano
Fukudome
DLee
Aramis
Soto
DeRosa
Pie
Theriot/Cedeno

bench would be Murton, Ward, Blanco, Fontenot/Patterson, Fuld

Pump any excess money we save into the draft, don't play around and say we're saving it for the trade deadline, pump it into the draft. Give Wilken the ability to choose whomever he wants irregardless of salary and reap the benefits.

If we can't sign Fukudome...

DO EVERYTHING THE SAME, stick Murton in RF... we'll get 75-80% of the production at 1/15th the cost.

stick excess money into the draft, dont go out and try to do the usual plug RF with a mid level guy because he's LH... we've made this mistake with Burnitz and Jones... just stop it.

and again....Pump excess funds into the draft and intl scouting

Notice i'm not including any trades because of 2 reasons:

  1. I dont believe we have a deep enough system to move prospects for any players that could currently help us more than what we already have
  2. any trade ideas I propose you'll likely shoot down saying, how do you know Hendry could get that done or how do you know he's not trying to do that, etc
Also, i'm readily admitting this is probably similar to Big Jim's plan, which you're going to cite as evidence for why i shouldn't be critical of anything he's done so far

but that's missing my point

my point is the moves we've made in the past and the way this organization has operated in the past is one for concern. IE Signing mid-level guys (losing draft picks) and then trading them at the end of their contracts when we're trying to shed salary for likely lesser prospects than we could've drafted

that's where my criticism was, and while i'll argue that we could've fetched more for Jones, Ohman, and CASH than Ascanio you're going to go straight to the "how do you know we could've gotten more", which i dont

which i guess makes it impossible to ridicule any trades we ever make, based on the premise none of us know the negotiations

which creates a circular dilemna of never being allowed to criticize management, because we dont know all the facts

and there's some truth to it and there's some element of laziness to it as well... because as fans we're supposed to speculate on how our club can improve, not simply sit back and take whatever they give you without question

anyways, this is kind of an exercise in futility because you're asking me to make a plan for THIS offseason and this one alone, when i've been complaining about the Cubs just making plans for 1 offseason at a time instead of having an overriding plan for a number of years at once.

Because of the past moves we've made trying to plan starting with this season for a few seasons in advance is quite a difficult task since we're tied up with unmovable assets encompassing 40-50% of our entire budget. There just isnt a lot of wiggle room given the way they've operated in the past

but if you're asking me about my overall philosophy or the thing that has frustrated me most about the cubs, well its pretty simple

Avoid spending through FA for league average production

i.e. Jones, Eyre, Marquis, Dempster, etc...

instead pump that money into your scouting and your draft budget and target the highest level prospects coming out of the draft

leverage your financial advantage through the intl scouting and through the draft and you wont have to overpay in FA

which is why i would never have signed Soriano or Marquis, etc.... i would have never tried to turn a 67 win team into a 95 win team overnight.... because its almost impossible to do...

whenever you're playing in FA you're paying a guy who's heading towards his 30+ years, for the production he had when he was in his mid 20's

its a bad gamble

does this satisfy your request?

by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 4, 2007 1:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I guess so...
... but what it results in, is you constantly bitching about every move that is made, when you cannot necessarily know whether said moves ARE part of a plan until the offseason is complete.

Today's move was useful in that:

  1. it cleared a 40-man roster spot, and
  2. it saved some payroll room.
What that means cannot yet be known. Let's talk about this again in a month.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 4, 2007 1:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

man...
you make me look like Nostradamus, that's almost word for word what i said you'd say

I still haven't seen you try to explain what the Cubs long-term plan was over these last few years

you yourself have mentioned in previous posts that moves have essentially been dictated by the different managers we've had in Dusty and Lou

all i'm asking is for you to put together a clear argument as to how you can justify the Cubs moves over the last few years as anything more than reactionary to each individual off-season

the cubs play a season see how it goes and then go into the offseason targeting what they need for that NEXT season

there isnt long-term thinking there. If there was how could you explain them signing Marquis last year only to be ready to trade him this offseason. Or signing Jacque Jones in 05 only to want to trade him in 07

do you really believe they've been operating with one overall organizational philosophy that they've been tactically trying to fill long-term holes with?

because i dont believe they are, and that's where my frustration lies

by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 4, 2007 2:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

dart this is my opinion
were in kinda wierd time in baseball as a whole. the reason i say this is because most teams aren't having to shed payroll like in recent years. the  few that do are getting huge bounties because there is so much need for great pitching(becoming extinct but thats another subject).

this brings me to us. were also in a wierd kinda situation. we really dont have the luxury of time with our prospects. this team's core makeup is getting old and for the most part i dont think we have that many holes. i dont think there is too many  
trades to be had(fair trades that is) for reasons stated earlier.

in order to plug holes hendry is having to play the bidding game in which all parties are good poker players. does he always make the smart deal?? no, but who is too say what might have
been? i truly believe hendry's intentions are to field a winning team but we all gotta realize that what happens behind closed doors is anyone's guess.

myself as well as others tend to take what we read on the internet and run with it. i think at times we prosecute hendry before we give him a chance. one things for sure no matter what he does he cant make a player stay healthy. i think in recent years that has been our worst enemy.

hendry is gonna give this current team a damn good chance before the start of the 08 season. i dont think lou would have it any other way.

GO CUBS GO!!!!!

by cubsluver22 on Dec 4, 2007 2:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

My assertion as well
Well put...

IIRC, Dartmouth was also bitching and moaning about all of the signings last off season.
While not 95 wins, 87 took them from worst to first. Did HE predict that Lou would "save" Zambrano, Lilly inplode, and the Cubs offense hit like high schoolers facing Santana? I don't think so. They had a shot to at least get to the second round, I thought.

I'd say that looking at the current PLAN - Hendry has improved his pitching prospects in the minors, hired Rick Wilkens, hired Lou, started to address the "culture of losing", and got rid of a bunch of crap - in a years time. Will Oh-Man! was the coup de gras!

As a Season Ticket holder, its a nice start. Just no Wilkerson.

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 4, 2007 2:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

we brought back Rick Wilkens!!!!!
is he Soto's backup catcher????

or did you mean Tim Wilken....

by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 4, 2007 2:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Rick Wilkins
= Tim Wilken?

HA HA!

I'd prefer Rick Wilkens to Hank White right now!!

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 4, 2007 3:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey now!
Hank White is going to hobble over there and swing futilly at you!
FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 4, 2007 3:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

my thoughts
there is no doubt that there has been a gross absence of foresight with the cubs...there hasn't been a "plan" for the 35 years i've been a fan. from scouting, to drafting, to consistent player development from level to level, to mis-judging organizational prospects etc., the cubs have been abysmal.

so what's wrong with a fan articulating his frustration with organizational failures and baseball transgressions? nothing! however, to criticize an organization for past deeds when said organization is attempting to "right the ship" is inappropriate.  

"If you'da been thinkin you wouldn't 'a thought that." ~~ "Squints" Palledorous

by rm463 on Dec 4, 2007 2:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

edit
...to a lack of consistent player development from level to level...
"If you'da been thinkin you wouldn't 'a thought that." ~~ "Squints" Palledorous

by rm463 on Dec 4, 2007 2:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It is called disagreement
we have simply reached a point of impass and DCF continues to try to convince many of us that this move is a HUGE mistake when we do not agree.

There is not anything WRONG with that per say, there is just something ANNOYING about it.

MMMMM...Golden shrimp and chicken combo from Ron of Japan!

by Kinky Reggae on Dec 4, 2007 2:34 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

this is what i'm trying to get across
what's coming across is:

This infante/ohman trade for Ascanio is a horrific move which we wont be able to overcome

that notion in itself is almost hilarious right? And i understand why anyone would argue that against me

what i meant to come across is:

my frustration with this continued pattern of signing midlevel FA players, giving up draft picks to do it, and then having to eat their salary or trade them for pennies on the dollar at the end of their contract

that is the notion i'm trying to get across, not that this one trade is going to destroy us or is a terrible move, etc

its a very minor deal in the big picture of things

instead its the big picture i'm complaining about. this pattern isn't new and it's one that has helped us languish in mediocrity for quite a while

i keep trying to reiterate this but since these conversations/disagreements are taking place over 2 diaries i can see where my point is getting lost

as for the series of trades, yeah i didnt love it because i thought JJ would have more value and i wish we stopped selling guys low (in my opinion)

oh... and Al's post here

http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/comments/2007/8/25/21611/3779/4#4

seems to suggest he thought we would've gotten more for JJ as well

but i guess he either values Ascanio a lot more than I do

or he's vastly changed his opinion since August

by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 4, 2007 3:06 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yabbut...
...what the flying hell does that have to do with Will Ohman? He was ours! We drafted him and nurtured him and coddled him from birth. He has never seen free agency.
FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 4, 2007 3:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

it has to do with the series of moves
that Ohman happened to be included in

it has nothing to do with Omar Infante either

like i've been saying this whole time... i just thought we'd be able to get more than Ascanio for Ohman, Jones, and Cash

which is essentially what the series of deals turned out to be

is that more clear?

by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 4, 2007 3:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I suppose it's clear.
Quite frankly, I think that we got as much as could reasonably be expected out of those two, but hey, that's a difference in evaluating player worth, and I don't know if we can resolve it.

Just remember, though -- opportunity costs exist, too. And from that perspective, we got quite a bit out of that series of transactions.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 4, 2007 3:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Let's go ahead and clarify this.
Will Ohman was straight-up bad with the Cubs last year. A few of Baseball Prospectus's advanced metrics: WXLR says he was probably seven-tenths of a win below replacement last year. So Will Ohman, over the course of a season, probably cost the Cubs most of a win. In other words, if you were to replace both Michael Wuertz (a pretty good reliever) and Will Ohman (a bad reliever) with replacement-level players, the Cubs would have fared just as well.

The Cubs, it shouldn't need to be said, have tons of relievers available in the farm system, so scaring up a replacement-or-better reliever to fill Will Ohman's spot shouldn't be difficult. Properly leveraged, simply getting rid of Will Ohman saves the Cubs over a million dollars AND improves the team by about a win. And we get a 40-man roster spot we can use to sign free agents, make trades or protect a player from the upcoming Rule V draft. Essentially, getting nothing for Will Ohman would be a good trade. So let's go ahead and say that's what happened. Jim Hendry traded Will Ohman for nothing. Good job, Jim!

So now we're left with Jacque Jones plus cash for Jose Acquaino. Let's make a few assumptions here:


  • Jacque Jones won't be eligable for Type A or B compensatory draft picks.
  • Felix Pie will play center field and will at least match Jacque Jones' value at the position.
  • Jacque Jones is not well-suited to be a bench player.

Given those assumptions... we save salary, contribute to the development of one of our top young players, and get a young pitcher for our farm system. Oh, and we get a roster spot -- which, again, can be used to sign free agents, make trades or protect a player from the upcoming Rule V draft.

It's not as big of a win as the Will Ohman for nothing deal, but it's not bad.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 4, 2007 4:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

fair enough
good supporting evidence for your opinion

i'd argue a few things:

  1. Ohman has a 3 year track record thats a bit better than last year's numbers and when used exclusively against lefties was pretty strong. This wasn't something Pineilla did much
  2. I think Jones will be a Type B Free Agent
http://www.sportscity.com/MLB/Elias-MLB-Rankings-DH-1B-OF

Jones would've been a B level FA this year and because Plate Appearances is used in the calculation i think he'll be a B level FA, kind of like Shannon Stewart this year...

by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 4, 2007 4:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

appreciate your opinion RPM
my only reply would be how do i know they're trying to "right the ship"

i mean... couldnt that be said for any year?

how do i know they're putting in place a long-term organizational philosophy that they're going to stick to firmly

to me the pursuit of kaz matsui suggested that nothing really has changed

they're still going to go after mid-level FA's and lean on FA to patch holes rather than internal options

by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 4, 2007 2:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Cmon
we don;t all have the time to view your somewhat narcissistic view on the many many shortcomings of the Cubs GM.

Look, you seem to think, despite the fact that several of our key players are locked up for years to come, that Hendry still thinks only short term.

You are not going to convince me that he was still thinking short sightedly.  Sure the needs were current needs that he was filling but what the heck needs are not?

One would have to predict injury, production decline, and other such natural occurances to foresee what needs will present themselves in the long term future.

Cmon dude, you got a crystal ball at home?

Your arguments are benign IMO.

MMMMM...Golden shrimp and chicken combo from Ron of Japan!

by Kinky Reggae on Dec 4, 2007 2:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

years and years of statistical data
suggest players decline after the age of 31 or 32... the numbers paint a pretty nice and tidy curve along which you can estimate players best production comes between the years of 26-30

why on earth would you lock up a 31 year old coming off his career season to an 8 year contract that is backloaded significantly and will pay him 18 million a year annually when he's 34-39 years old

you're paying him at the ages of 34-39 as if he's producing as he did when he was 27-30 (his peak years)

how could that be a good thing for the future?

my contention is Hendry did it knowing the addition of Soriano along with some other hefty financial investments could re-make this team into contenders for a short period of time... contenders all be it that would be very dependent on playing in a weak division but contenders nonetheless over night

by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 4, 2007 2:40 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay
but i am sure Hendry feels if necessary, he will trade Soriano if he ends up sucking in five years.

Was it the most efficient investment? No

Did he address a need on a long term basis? Yes.  And who would you have suggested he lock up instead?  Was ther some other stellar player that could be had for much less of an investment (time and $$) that you know of?

As for the stats...ever hear of Julio Franco, Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, Omar Vizquel (stretch yes)?

Numbers don;t make it so all the time.  Like Al says though, talk to me in five or six years and then we can say Soriano was a bad investement.  

MMMMM...Golden shrimp and chicken combo from Ron of Japan!

by Kinky Reggae on Dec 4, 2007 2:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

no trade clause
he gave Soriano a full no trade clause, so even that one doesnt work

in fact ALL of our big investments have no trade clauses: Lilly, Aramis, DLee, Soriano, Zambrano

and on the stats comment, each of those players HAVE regressed since their best years

some have regressed slower, sure

but you're also picking out a few HOF's

and that anecdotal evidence certainly isn't even close to the majority

its not playing the odds, relying on a 1 in a million shot

by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 4, 2007 3:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Seriously, man, you're ruining Baseball Christmas.
Okay, so maybe the Jacque Jones signing two years ago was bad. You've yet to try and show that Jones didn't deliver appropriate market value compared to a replacement player, so whatever. I don't really care.

What in the sam hell does this have to do with the fact that we shipped out Will Ohman? Is the team better than it was this morning, or wasn't it?

Agh.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 4, 2007 3:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

the grinch
sorry i'm ruining your christmas cwyers, but you dont have to read what i write....

are we better than yesterday i don't really see how giving up 2 major leaguers for 1 minor leaguer makes our major league roster better today

if your argument is are we better positioned for the future, yeah we probably are

but just like you're speculating on our positioning for the future, i'm speculating on what could've been (either what could've been in the past, or how we could've been positioned better for the future)

i personally think we could've gotten more for JJ and Ohman and Cash than Ascanio

by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 4, 2007 3:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

not be an.........!
but u keep saying "i personally think we could've gotten more for JJ and Ohman and Cash than Ascanio"
 jim hendry the chicago cubs general manager, you know the ones opinion,thoughts, and decisions count for something, probably tried to get all he could for him. fact of the matter is he couldnt i repeat he got all he could get for him. jones never real fit in here and from all reports ive read he didnt wanna be here. it really dont matter what you, me, or anybody else thinks right now. i believe their is a plan in place to field the best team possible for 08. long term plans are for the birds. we have been waiting for 100 years for a championship and we are extremely close to getting one. we need just a little tinkering and i'm sure hendry knows right down to the dollar how much he has to play with and who and what he can afford.
GO CUBS GO!!!!!

by cubsluver22 on Dec 4, 2007 3:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

At the time...
The two coveted OFers as FA were Jacque Jones and Edwin Encarnacion whom the Cards signed.

People (perhaps Dartmouth and others) were complaining that the deal was too long (3 years) and the money too much.

Encar ended up signing nearly an identical deal as JJ (look it up), and JJ's 2006 season was MORE productive. More rbi's more HR's,and, IIRC, a couple points better in BA.

However, Encar got the ring.

It is so very, very convenient to second and third guess decisions by the GM, and while I would consider myself a huge basher of Hendry's in 2005 & 2006, Jacque Jones was the least of his problems...

Unfortunately, he also had to work under Andy McFail.

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 4, 2007 4:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

it was a thin market
but Eric Byrnes was out there (admittedly coming off an atrocious year) but was just 1 year off posting an OPS+ of 111 in a full season

Moises was out there, so was Juan Encarnacion

here's the full list:

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/news/hot_stove/y2005/free_agent_tracker.jsp?fastatus=all&subscope=pos& ;teamPosCode=O&section=1&sortbystat=Last_Name

but again thats picking 1 date in history and evaluating 1 move

its a bigger picture than Jacque Jones... its the repeated emphasis on living through FA and the inabilitiy to develop players from within that is/has been frustrating me

i've tried to make this point but if you keep relying on living through FA its a very tough position to be in because you almost ALWAYS have to overpay for guys

by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 4, 2007 4:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Plan?
Do you honestly belive Jimbo is going to telegraph his moves?

Sounds like that Allstate commercial where the coach yells out of the dugout to the runner that he wants him to steal on the next pitch.

Our grandparents used to say, "I hope the Cubs win the Series before I die". Now the teenagers are saying it.

by blackhawk24 on Dec 4, 2007 10:39 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

This always amazed me
how people take what comes out of these GM's mouth as gospel.  There is a tremendous amount of posturing that goes on in this process and these guys spew a whole bunch of BS.

To a degree they are almost like politicians in regards to how often they reveal their true thoughts or intentions.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Dec 4, 2007 11:10 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

still though
while you're right, i tend to believe this one.  we've never heard any real rumors that the cubs would move pie, and im sure hendry has had the opportunity many different times since they signed him about 7 years ago.  with the time spent with lou, hendry and gerald perry have all visiting him in the dominican to work on things, i think the cubs fully plan on having pie as the center fielder unless something drastically changes.
Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Dec 4, 2007 11:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If Marshall goes
in a REALLY mutually beneficial trade, I feel more confident since many years that the one strength of the farm system is pitching.

I just am not concerned too much about Sean. He's a nice 5th starter.

Honestly, I'd rather trade Marquis any day and keep Marshall...

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 4, 2007 9:41 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

RE:
"Honestly, I'd rather trade Marquis any day and keep Marshall..."

Who the hell wouldn't? You know what you're getting with Marquis....Marshall still has room to grow.

Super Mario Galaxy! Get it NOW!

by TheBeerBaron on Dec 4, 2007 9:49 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Updated Roster/Salary Info...
...available here. Available salary info is taken from Cot's Baseball; I guessed at the arbitration players.
FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 4, 2007 9:50 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Not To Add More Work...
... but could you include a column for max payout on incentives?  

I think I have that somewhere in Excel if you want me to send it to you...

by initram on Dec 4, 2007 9:55 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If you have that info...
...I'd be more than happy to add that.

I'd probably just output it all to Excel to republish it anyway; I'm becoming less enamored of some of Google Doc's interface. Ping me at pontifexexmachina -at- hotmail.com with the file when you can.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 4, 2007 9:56 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, There Weren't Many
Ramirez: $975,000
Lee: $100,000
Soriano: $1,225,000
DeRosa: $725,000

by initram on Dec 4, 2007 9:57 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Doesn't Big Z get incentives?
n/t
FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 4, 2007 9:59 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Nope...
I just called Carlos, and he said that he has a couple of clauses / vesting options:

(a) full no-trade clause
(b) Zambrano receives 2013 player option if he is first or second in 2011 Cy Young vote or if he finishes in top 4 in 2012 Cy Young vote and is healthy at end of 2012

by initram on Dec 4, 2007 10:33 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't Forget
The cash to Detroit in the JJ/OI deal.
PERRY!!!!

by Goat Whisperer on Dec 4, 2007 9:58 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

question
anyone know where there is a live cubs chat room where myself and a few others could get together and and talk cubs baseball right now???
GO CUBS GO!!!!!

by cubsluver22 on Dec 4, 2007 12:27 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

new rumor: teahen
bruce levine, who has been breaking lots of news lately, reporting cubs talking about a murton for mark teahen swap.

for a very broad generalization, teahen is like murton, from the left side, with better speed and possibly higher ceiling for power.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Dec 4, 2007 1:02 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Uh...
...why would the Royals do this?
FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 4, 2007 1:09 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah
the same thought crossed my mind, because teahen just seems to be a younger and a little more talented version of murton.  i guess we would have to be shipping them prospects.
Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Dec 4, 2007 1:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

"younger"
i guess that wasnt really all that accurate, they're only a month apart in age.
Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Dec 4, 2007 1:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

TEAHEN - 121K's!
7hr!

#1 in GIDP AL, 2007 with 23.

More "Talented"?

Really?

What we have is as good or better. Please, no.

IF we're gonna truly upgrade, fine. But not this.

Hamilton, o.k. FUKU. Crawford. McLouth+Murt platoon. But to me, it is just not worth it simply b/c he is a LH.

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 4, 2007 1:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

"talent"
is a subjective word.  teahen can play more positions, and has better speed, though i did alter my original post below after looking deeper at the stats.  i was still viewing teahen as the player that finished the 2006 season doing this in 393 at bats:

.290 .357 .517  18 hr 10 sb (zero caught)

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Dec 4, 2007 1:22 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

not accurate
again im contradicting myself as i look deeper into the stats.

both players are 26, both entered the league at 23. murton has shown more power with a homer every 29 at bats, teahen a homer every 43 at bats.

teahen has played third base and outfield so is likely more athletic and the better defender, hits left fields right.

career lines:

murton: .296/.365/.455
teahen: .274/.340/.429

last year:

murton: .281/.352/.438
teahen: .285/.353/.410

teahen had a power drop last year that wasnt expected, hitting 7 hr in 544 ab, after 18 hr in 393...a little odd.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Dec 4, 2007 1:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The Royals want RH hitting
They have Gordon, Butler, DeJesus, Gathright, and Gload, the first three of which have the chance to be excellent hitters.  They are signing Jose Guillen because they want RH power.  

I would be very surprised if Murton was enough to get Teahen, because Mark (not Matt) can play third base adequately, first base in a pinch, and is a better outfielder.  I would not be surprised to see the Cubs include a pitcher in the trade, even someone like Marshall, and get a minor leaguer in return.  

Orange Guy would have a chance to be an everyday player in KC, and be a fan favorite.  

Geo! (clap-clap-clap) Soto! (clap-clap-clap)

by zambranofan on Dec 4, 2007 2:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Do you have two legs?
Are both arms still attached?

Do you have at least four fingers per hand?

Are you at least as mobile as an arthrhitic Dutchman?

Congratulations! You can play first base in a pinch!

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 4, 2007 3:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Hardy-har
OK, he can play first base in a pinch much better than Daryle Ward or Mike Fontenot.  Any more wise-cracks, funny boy?  

Don't make me go all Sam Fuld in the AZFL on yo' ass!  It's like 5 foot 8 of pure THUNDAHHHH!

;)

And, by the way, I think your post is a veiled insult to Mordecai Brown.  This shall not stand, sir!

Geo! (clap-clap-clap) Soto! (clap-clap-clap)

by zambranofan on Dec 4, 2007 3:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd do that in a heartbeat
I'm a Royals fan as well, and you guys would love Teahen. The fact that he's left handed and can play 3rd makes him more valuable than Murton; he'd essentially be a younger, lefty DeRosa.

by JodyDavis on Dec 4, 2007 4:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I see...
we just dispatched a guy who had a drop to 7hr last year.

I just do not see it as making the team better, if that's the gm's objective.

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 4, 2007 1:34 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

the riot?
is the riot for sure our starting ss next year?the guy only hit .266!and he doesn't exactly have a cannon over there.i myself wouldn't be opposed to someone else.who is available?

by cubz409 on Dec 4, 2007 4:35 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I Think Hendry...
... want a platoon at short with TheRiot.

by initram on Dec 4, 2007 4:46 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Bedard and Fukudome
I didn't want to start a new diary.

Apparently, Hendry and McFAIL had lunch and talked Bedard (amongst other things).  The Cubs are now in the hunt, and officially the 11th team.

"Joel Sherman confirms the Cubs' interest, so that's officially 11 teams in on Bedard." from: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/12/latest-erik-bed.html

Also, Bruce Levine reported that he honestly believes that Fukudome will be a Cub... possible in the next couple of days.  C'mon down... this baby is all ready for you -->  http://s238.photobucket.com/albums/ff208/cpm023/?action=view&current=Kosuke.jpg

by initram on Dec 4, 2007 4:45 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

padres offer to fukudome:
4 years 40 mil, according to bruce levine.
Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Dec 4, 2007 5:09 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Well
Hendry will blow that out of the water.

by DGU on Dec 4, 2007 8:06 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

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