Mark Cuban, Redux

by Al on Dec 4, 2007 8:42 AM CST in News Comment 102 comments

Today's Winter Meetings rumors are covered quite well in cwyers' early morning diary; go there for a summary, various news links and discussion.

Mark Cuban was in town for the Mavs/Bulls game last night, and naturally, that fueled some MSM articles about his interest in the Cubs; first, this brief AP dispatch which appeared in the Daily Herald quotes him on the current state of the process:

"Nothing's changed. Right now we're waiting for the (economic) reports to come out in January," Cuban said before Monday's game between the Mavericks and Bulls.

With the final sale of Tribco apparently green-lighted after the FCC's approval of crossownership waivers last week, to be completed around the first of the year, the company should be able to get its financial reports out to prospective team buyers early in 2008 -- that doesn't mean an immediate sale, rather, it probably means it'll take till near the end of the 2008 season for a sale.

Jay Mariotti is still pumping up Cuban:

If he can make quantum leaps into Hollywood, the Internet, high-definition TV, movie theaters and pro basketball while managing to pull off "Dancing With The Stars" without embarrassing himself, you think Cuban cares about what we're writing and saying regarding conventional baseball wisdom? You know, that the good old boys who run the sport would rather sleep with rattlesnakes and dine with Scott Boras than let him own the Chicago National League Ball Club Inc.?

Again, I'm puzzled as to why "DWTS" has anything to do with running a successful sports franchise. Yes, there's no doubt Cuban has run many successful businesses, and has enough money to pour into the Cubs. Mariotti wondered about Cuban's forays onto NBA courts to taunt referees:

As he sat in his NBA ENTERTAINMENT LEAGUE t-shirt, which seemed a shot at something, I asked him why Selig shouldn't be concerned that he won't jump on a field to protest an ump's call.

"I won't do that. I'll be in the bleachers," he said. "And basketball and baseball are two different sports. In basketball, there are no stops. A ball-strike call isn't the same as a turnover. I played baseball and never argued with an ump."

That remains to be seen. As I wrote last month after hearing Cuban speak at BlogWorldExpo and meeting him (well, for about 15 seconds, anyway), I am less opposed to him as a potential owner than I was before. I'm still not convinced that what the Cubs need is a celebrity owner who will promote himself as much as the team; my first choice remains, as I wrote in October, Chicago Wolves owner Don Levin.

Levin's name has been curiously absent from MSM articles about the potential sale recently; but then again, so has the name of the supposed front-runner, John Canning. Levin, to me, is Mark Cuban without the flamboyance -- a guy with deep pockets who'd spend money on the Cubs because he wants them to win, and put the best baseball people in place and give them the resources to do their jobs right.

If Mark Cuban would do that, rather than keep saying "I'll sit in the bleachers" (because, Mark, it's NOT all about YOU), then maybe I'd be more ready to jump on his bandwagon.

We probably won't know more about this process until after January 1, so in the meantime, let's go sign a Japanese outfielder! (Whenever, that is, he decides officially to come to MLB, which apparently hasn't happened yet.)

0 recs | Comment 102 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Levin

I've always liked the idea of a fan owning the team. I want to believe he'd run it like he runs the Wolves - like a fan would - to win.

This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.

by HectorVillanueva on Dec 4, 2007 8:52 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Ohman and Infante traded to Braves

for Jose Ascanio of the Braves.

This according to Bruce Levin from ESPN1000-Chicago.

Think I got the Brave's kids' name right...

Our grandparents used to say, "I hope the Cubs win the Series before I die". Now the teenagers are saying it.

by blackhawk24 on Dec 4, 2007 9:02 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

CUBS TRADE Oh-MAN!!!!!

CUBS TRADE!!

Infante and Oh-Man for Jose Ofinio from Braves, per B. Levine!

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 4, 2007 9:02 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Yep...

it was only a matter of time before Ohman was shown the door.

You ARE freaking out MAN!

by crw89 on Dec 4, 2007 10:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Er...yes...Ascinio

http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=448857

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 4, 2007 9:05 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Jose Ascanio is the guy.

Here are his minor league stats. Had a real good WHIP and ERA in Double-A last year (in the Southern League) -- allowed only ONE home run in 78 innings.

Pitched in 13 games for the Braves last season, covering 16 innings, with a 5.06 ERA. He turns 23 in May; I presume he'll be in the mix to make the bullpen in 2008, or maybe become the closer at Iowa.

Good deal. Not only does this get rid of Ohman, but it also cuts some more $ off the payroll by getting rid of Infante, who didn't really have a spot on the roster.

That makes Jones and Ohman for Ascanio. Seems like a lot, but maybe Ascanio will become something decent.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 4, 2007 9:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

best part about this guy

his HR/9 innings looks amazing. if you can believe it, in 70+ innings it was 0.12 last year at double a. 0.47 a year earlier at double a.

just to compare, carlos marmol had a 0.16 his second year in double a.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Dec 4, 2007 9:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Farewell, oh hideos scowl of Ohman!

Another positive to Ascanio that jumped out at me is that, in 16 innings he pitched for the Braves this past season, he struck out 13 batters (walked 6). Not too shabby.

Ladies and gentlemen, your 2008 Chicago Cubs starting outfield: Soriano-Pie-Fukudome. Let it be.

by dat cubfan daver on Dec 4, 2007 9:13 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

SALARY DUMP!!!

It purely is a salary dump and roster-opening, imo.

JJ + Ohman + Infante for a 22 y.o. minor leaguer.

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 4, 2007 9:26 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

It's not...

... Jones PLUS Infante, because those two were traded for each other.

Essentially, since Infante never played a game in a Cub uniform, it's Jones + Ohman, yes, still a salary dump, and a useful one.

Jones' salary goes to the Tigers, and Infante's to the Braves (as well as Ohman's). Well done by Hendry.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 4, 2007 9:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh Yeah...

Yep. Indeed.

In any case, dumping salary and a truly mediocre player that is unreliable and a whiner, while ALSO opening up a roster spot, is great imo.

I have never, EVER, liked Will Oh-Man!

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 4, 2007 9:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

well done?

Well done by Hendry

You like Jones + Ohman + 2 million dollars for a double A reliever? Seems like a disaster to me.

However, you have to be encouraged by 71 K, 18 BB, 1 HR in 78 innings, even if it is Southern League hitters he is facing.

If he ever contributes to a major league team it'll look nice in retrospect... but Ohman put up better numbers at 22 in AA... so this is definitely a project. An expensive project.

One of my criticisms of Hendry is that he seems to always start the offseason by cleaning up mistakes. This to me is cleary a series of clean up moves. Ohman will be an effective situational lefty for the Braves, nice acquisition for them.

by jacob on Dec 4, 2007 9:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Disaster?

At worst, Jones puts up his career line for a year and goes back to free agency, Ohman puts up 60 innings of servicable relief, and we have a guy who we pay nothing and can send to the minors if he's not performing.

Sounds good to me!

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 4, 2007 10:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree.

Jones & Ohman must have dominated the Brewers, which is why jacob thinks it's a disaster for the Cubs. From a Cub fan's point of view, they cleared some payroll room -- which also includes whatever Infante was scheduled to make in 2008 -- and two 40-man roster spots (or only one, if Ascanio is placed on the 40-man).

Either way, it's a good deal in my opinion, especially since I'd have taken a used infield rake in exchange for Ohman.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 4, 2007 10:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

AL!!! HAHAHAHA!

Used infield rake...

LMAO!!!!

HAHAHA!!!!!!

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 4, 2007 11:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Wow...

...how do you really feel?!

Dan

MAKING WAY FOR FUKUDOME?!

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Dec 4, 2007 11:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

not disaster...

...in the sense that these were guys the cubs should've hung on to. It was the right move for the cubs to get rid of both of them.

It's a disaster in the sense that it cost the cubs 2 million dollars to clear a couple of roster spots. Both Ohman and Jones had negative value in relation to their contracts, that is Hendry's fault. Disaster is too strong a word, and if Ascanio can contribute at the ML level well then it doesn't look so bad, but he has to be pretty good to get back the 2 million dollars the cubs lost. Because you don't pay 2 million dollars for replacement-level talent.

When you have deep pockets you can afford to sign players to bad contracts, and take the hit later on. It's a disaster (mess is a better word) in the sense that you have commitments to players that you have no intention of keeping around.

I guarantee you, the cubs didn't go into the offseason targeting Ascanio as a guy they wanted to add to the club.

Hendry traded away a total of three major league ready talents for a double A reliever. And it cost him 2 million dollars to do it. The whole series of moves can hardly be called "good," it was a slate-clearing, mistake-fixing do-over. it was correct and needed, but the fact that it had to go down like this says he had a mess on his hands. Making the best of a mess is still a mess.

As a brewers fan, I like it, this is the kind of GM-ing that keeps the small markets in the game.

If every year you make 10 million dollars worth of mistakes (and i wouldn't be surprised if this were true of hendry) well that's the difference between signing jason marquis and signing johann santana.

by jacob on Dec 4, 2007 10:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd like to see a source on $2 million...

...as I've heard it's only $1 million.

At any rate. Will Ohman's contract was not a free agent deal; it was a two-year deal to avoid going to arbitration. The Cubs had to pay Will Ohman no matter what. Certainly small-market teams ALSO pay their arbitration-eligable players, no?

The Ohman deal is less a straight salary dump, and more akin to the Estrada deal -- the Cubs got rid of Ohman because they didn't like him.

The difference? We took a guy who had become a clubhouse problem and turned him into a Double-A pitcher. The Brewers took a clubhouse problem and turned him into Guillermo Freaking Mota, and then went ahead and signed Jason Kendall to a $4 mil deal with a vesting second year!

Yeah, yeah, clearly the CUBS are the team making the bad deals to compensate for past misdeeds here.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 4, 2007 11:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Larger point here...

...so maybe the Cubs spent some money here, but they were on the hook for money to Jacque Jones either way. They didn't take on any bad contracts in return, and they didn't do anything to hurt the long-term future of the ballclub, like bundling up a prospect with the trash just to get it taken away.

Evaluating baseball players isn't a sure thing, even with the best statistics and the best scouts; every GM will make mistakes. As far as that goes, the Cubs did a pretty good job clearing out Will Ohman.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 4, 2007 11:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

SAVES $5MM

Off the books...

Infante would have been DFA'd.

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 4, 2007 11:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Did you even read the conversation?

Nothing was said about Infante's salary. Nobody cares about Infante's salary at this point; we never paid Omar Infante a single cent.

And -- I can't belive I still have to point this out -- you still have to pay players you designate for assignement. You have to pay them every cent that you owe them. If they are picked up by another team, they will pay them $333,000 per anum, the league minimum; you are responsible for every additional cent on their contract. All MLB contracts -- unlike the NFL -- are guaranteed money.

In Infante's case, they could have nontendered him, which is not at all the same thing as DFA'ing, and let him become a free agent. But that is not the same thing.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 4, 2007 11:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

O.K., o.k.

Fine - anyway you slice it, payroll is reduced at a debatable figure, but the team is RID of an unreliable LOOGY that lied and was a whiner, and unliked by his team mates. Jacque Jones needed a new address. His woeful bad start in year one, never endeared him to Cub fans. I am not agreeing with this, but it was obvious that he would have been a platoon player again in 2008. At least Lou recognized this, unlike his predicessor.

We get in return a potentially valuable power arm (with one MiLB option left, I understand), and the opening up of two roster spots.

It is a positive thing.

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 4, 2007 11:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

a few things

1.) Brewers: kendall's contract is not at all comparable. The brewers really have nothing to do with the topic, unless you want to talk big-market, small-market strategies. Which I don't.

2.) 2 million: it's 2 million, where did you see 1?

3.) The ohman deal is nothing like the estrada deal. ohman was owed money by the cubs, estrada was not owed money by the brewers. Ascaino is a AA reliever, mota is an ML reliever. estrada for mota was straight up, ohman needed to be packaged with more ML talent to acquire a AA reliever. The brewers upgraded, the cubs downgraded.

4.) ohman was owed money because hendry foolishly signed him to a 2 year deal last year. The cubs did not have to pay ohman this year had they not given him a 2 year contract. You can non-tender arbitration eligible players... (see Mets & Estrada). Doesn't matter, he's probably getting paid twice as much as he is worth but you're getting down to fractions of millions.

5.) you are agreeing with me, the ohman and jones contracts were mistakes. i don't know why you are responding with these two last posts. what's your point?

They didn't take on any bad contracts in return, and they didn't do anything to hurt the long-term future of the ballclub, like bundling up a prospect with the trash just to get it taken away.

Yes, it could've been worse, it would've been hard, but it could've been worse.

If you just take the fact that hendry did what you say above, then yes, good move. But if the jones, and ohman contracts situations are better, and they really should've been better, then hendry is in a position to improve the ballclub instead of cleaning up mistakes. that's all.

by jacob on Dec 4, 2007 12:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Um.

Do you know who Guillermo Mota is?

Soooooo... he's owed over two million next season, will be 34 years old, and put up a 5.76 ERA last season. What, exactly, is that an upgrade of?

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 4, 2007 12:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

ERA?

for a reliever? have to same i'm disappointed, thought you were a little more insightful on the analysis side of things.

But, if you want to talk about guillermo mota... sigh...

take an '08 projection for him, anyone you want, and compare it to the back of the bullpen for the brewers. upgrade, right?

he's owed 3.2 million in '08. He's shown closer type stuff in the past, so clearly has upside. I think it is too big of a gamble for Melvin.

I don't really want to justify the mota trade... don't know why you are trying to change the subject anyway... the point is still that it is silly to view cleaning up mistakes as any kind of "good move."

by jacob on Dec 4, 2007 12:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'll always remember

"the 40-foot curveball..."

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 4, 2007 9:27 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

They finally got rid of Will "If I'm pitching, it's a bad" Ohman.

Old Style is the nectar of life.

by Mordecai on Dec 4, 2007 9:45 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Getting more and more wary of Fukudome...

As more teams get involved, I'm very concerned about the asking price. If 3 years $30 million is considered reasonable, what will Hendry's bid be to blow teams out of the water?

And remember - this is likely to be a .360-.370 OBP, .800 OPS guy. Is paying potentially $13-15 million per year for 3 years really that appealing?

I wasn't that excited about the idea of 3 years, $30 million. If it's potentially going to take substantially more than that, I'd pursue other options, because then I REALLY don't think it's going to be a good move.

by SouthernCub on Dec 4, 2007 10:25 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Yes, I'd do it.

You're talking about getting, perhaps, a slightly lesser version of Hideki Matsui. It's worth it, especially since more payroll room was cleared with today's deal.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 4, 2007 10:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think you're overvaluing him...

Based on previous Japanese players' stats, we'd be getting, more likely, an .800 OPS guy. I'd be shocked if we got a slightly lesser version of Hideki Matsui. His numbers in Japan were nowhere near Matsui's category.

Even if he was, the question is "how much less?" Matsui is an .850 OPS guy. Is an .825 OPS guy worth $13-15 million? I don't think so. And that's probably a generous estimate of Fukudome's translated performance.

Judging by the translated numbers of the Matsuis and Ichiro (which were VERY consistent translations), Fukudome projects to stats on par with Matt Murton's career numbers. That is not worth Derrek Lee money to me.

by SouthernCub on Dec 4, 2007 10:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Let me caveat by saying...

if we get him, I certainly hope I'm wrong.

But given past performance from Japanese guys, I just don't see Fukudome being an impact bat. I certainly don't see Matsui-light. Especially when you consider that Fukudome is built like Kaz Matsui, not Godzilla.

by SouthernCub on Dec 4, 2007 10:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

As I've said before...

...Fukudome is probably worth 4/45, or $35.9 for three years, based on his CHONE projection.

That said... if you're getting a three-year deal, I'm really far less opposed to overpaying than I am on a, say, six year deal. Or even a four-year deal. Money is less valuable than either prospects or years, in my opinion.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 4, 2007 10:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What is his CHONE projection?

And how often is that projection accurate? What would the CHONE projections have been for Ichiro and the Matsuis when they came over?

by SouthernCub on Dec 4, 2007 10:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Here's the relevant post...

...from the guy who did the CHONE projection. Here's a report on CHONE's reliability in 2007.

My gut feeling is that the forecast for Fukudome probably represents a median of a wider range of possibilities than most major leaguers; there's a lot more risk/reward for Fukudome than Murton.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 4, 2007 10:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I was more looking for estimates for...

new players (i.e., prospects and Japanese players). It's one thing to project for players with an MLB history. I'm interested to see how good the projections are for highly unknown commodities.

Everyone overrated the power of the Matsui's coming over, and I seem to recall teams expecting more mower from Ichiro as well. I don't disagree with the CHONE projection's estimate of average and OBP, but it's the power numbers where people have been overrating Japanese hitters in the past. I fear the same will happen with Fukudome.

by SouthernCub on Dec 4, 2007 12:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I wonder if

Atlanta is any closer for Ohman's parents to visit their grandkids since they didn't get to visit them in Chicago? ;-)

"But being a nasty hateful person she can't help herself." KOW

by sue369 on Dec 4, 2007 10:27 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I don't think so...

... IIRC they live in California.

Only Florida and Tampa Bay would have been farther. Nice job, Jim Hendry!

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 4, 2007 10:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Very nice indeed.

"But being a nasty hateful person she can't help herself." KOW

by sue369 on Dec 4, 2007 10:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Adam Dunn

is the LH masher the Cubs need. The outfield defense wouldn't be any worse than last year if Soriano is slid over to RF. I like Fukudome and it sure would help the outfield defense but we don't even know if he'll come to the states. Hendry should have Dunn on his radar and make the move with the Reds if at all possible. Bombs away baby!!!!

When you've got'em by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow!

by Clute on Dec 4, 2007 10:47 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

would have loved him

but the reds just extended his contract, i dont think they're interested in trading him.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Dec 4, 2007 11:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I Didn't

know the Reds had extended him. I knew that if they did that he'd have a full no trade clause and thought they might've been interested in trading him before that. Once again, Hendry doesn't explore all the options and settles for what's leftover after proactive GM's go out and make the pro moves like the Renteria trade by the Tigers.

When you've got'em by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow!

by Clute on Dec 4, 2007 11:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Adam Dunn???

Thats a great idea sign a guy who was 3rd in the mlb with 165 strikeouts. Not even including Soriano with 130. The Cubs strike out enough as it is. And he would really add some speed to the lineup. If he makes an error he can't blame the field this year what would he do.

by ryan797 on Dec 4, 2007 4:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You'd think...

You'd think that Cuban would have better public relations sense than just to announce that he will be a fan. He should say, "I will devote 100% of my time and as many resources as necessary to the Chicago Cubs to make sure they win a World Series."

If he said that 5000 times in interviews, perhaps he might earn more Cub fan support.

"They (Expos fans) discovered 'boo' is pronounced the same in French as it is in English." -Harry Caray

by IowaCubs- on Dec 4, 2007 11:10 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

But that wouldn't be a true statment

His focus will be split with the Mavs... and HDNet... and various film production products.

by gsblake on Dec 4, 2007 11:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No

Cuban financed that film "Redacted" about the real life rape and murder of an Iraqi girl and her family by three U.S. soldiers.

The soldiers in question were tried and convicted, and sentenced to between 90 and 110 years in jail (though with the possibility of paroll).

This crime obviously does not represent the majority of our troops over there.

The films director, Brian DePalma director of such films as the Untouchables, specifically said that he wants these images to represent what he believes is really going on in Iraq.

Foreign DVD sales could insight violence in the already tumultuous Arab world and get more U.S. soldiers killed, not to mention innocent people, and young Arab kids who believe this junk to be representative of U.S. soldiers.

by Snake Plissken on Dec 4, 2007 1:11 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Thank you

Bill O'Reilly for your input.

Now go have a falafel.

The artist formerly known as JoshinLA

by Josh77 on Dec 4, 2007 2:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You're an idiot

nuf said.

by Snake Plissken on Dec 4, 2007 4:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Actually, it's not enough

So, you're willing to see American servicemen die based on hatred further incited by a politically motivated lie on the big screen so we can win a World Series?

by Snake Plissken on Dec 4, 2007 4:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

why...

... are you blaming the violence on the film and not the action of the servicemen?

DmL

by dmlichte on Dec 4, 2007 4:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well

For the same reason I don't blame all accountants when one rapes and murders a girl here at home.

It's not representative of the majority of people where talking about, in this case soldiers. However, the movie presents this as the if it is, and DePalma even says it as well.

You don't find anything wrong with that?

by Snake Plissken on Dec 4, 2007 4:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And I take it

you've seen the film and are basing your opinion on what you've seen?

No. You haven't. You're listening to more Fascist propaganda coming out of The Fox Lies Channel.

Can you please cite one example of violence against American servicemen incited by this film? Oh, you can't? Can you cite one example of anyone in the Middle East who even gives a rats ass about this film? Of course you can't.

Now go have another falafel. I'm sure BillO would love it if you'd rub it all over your body first.

The artist formerly known as JoshinLA

by Josh77 on Dec 4, 2007 5:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hell no

I'm not putting money into the coffers of hate-mongers.

I'm basing this on what has been reported about this film by people who have been subjected to it.

No I can't cite an act of violence caused by it. Nor can you claim that acts of violence are not.

We can go around the room all day with this.

Again, I'm not pro-war or anti-war, I just don't think that someone who is willing to finance a movie about a real-life atrocity and claim that it is representative of all American soldiers should buy the Cubs.

That's like saying a white racist killing an African-American man is representative of all white people. Then, putting movie together in which you imply, and you yourself publicly profess, that it is representative.

If Cuban wants to go out to protest, that's find I don't care about his politics. I do care when someone does something that could get people killed. I'll refer to you to propaganda films such as "The Battleship Potempkin" or "Alexander Nevsky".

Look at cartoon and comics and movies made by Americans targeted against the Germans, Italians, and Japanese. They were intended to rev-up everyone against the bad guys. It's called propaganda.

by Snake Plissken on Dec 4, 2007 5:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure I understand....

... why all of you can't understand when I sai...

this part of the thread HAS TO STOP NOW!!!

Political discussion has no place on this site. Maybe some other sports blogs allow it, but I don't. Period. Don't care whether you agree with my political views or not, it doesn't belong here.

And with that, PLEASE STOP.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 4, 2007 9:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

hilarious!

"So, you're willing to see American servicemen die based on hatred further incited by a politically motivated lie on the big screen so we can win a World Series?"

seriously, this is the funniest thing i have read in quite a while. this would make a great title for an article in Vineline! maybe al and bruce miles could co-author it and pat hughs could read the audiobook version.

by anormal on Dec 4, 2007 4:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Worry this might get a little politial

Which I agree is inappropriate for this board.

Trying to be as objective as possible, I doubt a movie insights violence in the Arab world. US foreign policy and the deaths of thousands of Iraqis from US bombs and bullets have done plenty to stoke anti-US sentiment. Reality always trumps what's on the screen... That, and I think local media (usually government controlled), political leaders, and Muslim religious figures have done plenty to draw attention to stories like this. I agree that this story is by no means representative of what our troops do over there and that the film makers had a political agenda.

"Look, what's important is to be in first place on the last day of the season." -Lou 8/1/07

by 26.2cubfan on Dec 4, 2007 2:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not trting to get into an Iraq War debate.

But, this speaks to the character of a man who wants to buy our favorite team.

What does this say about him? It says he's a lying jag-off who bad mouths all American servicemen based on what a minority have done. And, he does it for political reasons.

by Snake Plissken on Dec 4, 2007 4:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think...

... we need to stop this part of the discussion right now.

Thanks.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 4, 2007 4:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Again, not trying to get into a debate.

But, is it not relevant? If he made an pro-Nazi movie or a pro-Stalin movie we'd be jumping all over this guy.

Look, I don't care what anybody's political feelings on the war are, for my part I'm actually undecided believe it or not, but putting out a piece of propoganda with the express intent of "showing what's really going on over there" based on an isolated, and awful, crime is wrong.

I therefore do not want Cuban to buy the Cubs, period.

by Snake Plissken on Dec 4, 2007 4:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Godwin called

He wants his thread back.

by salparadise23 on Dec 4, 2007 4:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ba-zing

by Snake Plissken on Dec 4, 2007 4:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

maybe

if we bring the troops home we will have no fear that "Foreign DVD sales could insight violence", though being afraid of dvd sales seems a bit silly.

oh yeah, how does this relate to the cubs? perhaps if cuban buys the cubs he will finance films about them that will enrage overseas dvd buyers?

by anormal on Dec 4, 2007 2:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

DVD sales

So, do you not watch the news at all? With Arabs marching in the street chanting anti-American slogans and burning flags. Then, head over to the iraq war coverage where another misguided young muslim kid tries to kill U.S. soldiers?

Like it or not movies are how much of the world sees the U.S. That's part of all the anti-U.S. sentiment. Everybody sees us as gun-toting lunatics who end up blowing up a city block to get the girl.

by Snake Plissken on Dec 4, 2007 4:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

ummm

no, i don't "watch" the news, i read it. this probably relates to my ability to maintain a coherent cubs-related discussion and your seeming inability to do so. for example, this is not a sentence: "With Arabs marching in the street chanting anti-American slogans and burning flags."

and on a cubs-related note, perhaps we should work for increased foreign sales of "This Old Cub" in order to end the war?

one more thing: "Everybody sees us as gun-toting lunatics who end up blowing up a city block to get the girl." hahahaha. that is hilarious. maybe that's how everyone sees YOU, but that's not how they see me.......lol......

by anormal on Dec 4, 2007 4:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That's fantastic

You read instead of write. Did you read about the riots that resulted in Afghanistan after an article about American "atrocities" was published, then later proven to be false a couple years ago?

That was from an article. Now, imagine if it was a movie. Pictures have more effect on people than words, good or bad.

Like it or not, most Europeons, for exaple, see most Americans as some combination of John McLain and Dirty Harry until proven otherwise.

Maybe "This Old Cub" would end the war. it's worth a shot.

Foreign DVD sales equals propaganda. If you don't believe watch the movie "The Battleship Potempkin".

And, don't correct my grammar.

by Snake Plissken on Dec 4, 2007 5:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And, this is relevant to the Cubs

Since the producer of this movie is trying to buy the Cubs, genius.

by Snake Plissken on Dec 4, 2007 5:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

not really

this discussion relates to the cubs about as much as the rangers pitching depth relates to president bush's foreign policy agenda.

....but "redacted" is playing at a theater a few blocks from my home and i may go see it this week now, so thanks for the input....

by anormal on Dec 4, 2007 5:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I just hope you can live with yourself afterwards

Young Arab men are going to buy this movie and watch it, get angry, and some of them may just decide to go try to kill an American soldier based on what three criminals did.

Do you really hate soldiers? Do you really want to see them killed

By the way, I think the real soldiers who did this got off easy with 90-110 year sentences (with the possibility of parole). That doesn't excuse this kind of irresponsible story-telling that could get more people, Americans ad Iraqis, killed.

I'll even state again, for you, that I'm neither pro-war or anti-war. I just don't want to see people killed based on a movie that is presented as "what's really going on in Iraq", and what our servicemen "are realy like".

by Snake Plissken on Dec 4, 2007 5:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

(sigh)

you really should try to work something about the cubs into your rants.

hey al, how about a review of "redacted"! ;-)

by anormal on Dec 4, 2007 5:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And you

really should try should try to stop lying to prove a point. I already told you, this speaks to the character of a man who wants to buy the Cubs.

I don't care about his politics. I care about him making a piece of inflammatory propaganda.

by Snake Plissken on Dec 4, 2007 5:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

2 response points

the post i responded to makes no mention of mark cuban or the chicago cubs
what exactly is it that you think i'm lying about?

by anormal on Dec 4, 2007 5:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

A couple of angry posts from both of us ago

And I quote 9you know, myself):

"And, this is relevant to the Cubs

Since the producer of this movie is trying to buy the Cubs, genius."

I was saying you were lying when you said that I had not tied this to the Cubs or Mark Cuban. The above quote obviously proves that I had.

Saying you were lying was probably a little harsh. I apologize.

Look, instead of carrying this on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on perhaps we should just agree to disagree, and move on.

You know, in all this, I don't even have your opinion on the subject we're supposed to be discussing. Do you want Cuban to own the Cubs?

by Snake Plissken on Dec 4, 2007 6:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i'm not angry.

in fact, i've found this entire exchange to be very amusing.

as for cuban owning the cubs, i truly don't care. i think if he bought the club we would see an owner who would try to put a winning ballclub on the field, but i also think there are other owners who would do the same. i would just like to see ownership that uses its resources to put a solid, competitive team on the field every year.

there do seem to be a lot of complaints about cuban drawing more attention to himself than the team. i can see both sides of that one. on the one hand, i want to see baseball and not mark cuban. on the other hand, distracting attention to himself and away from the players can sometimes help the players perform better. an example of this can be seen in the way that lou's tirade this year took some of the media scrutiny away from z and barrett's fight and allowed the team to regain a focus on playing baseball rather than the drama of the televised fight.

honestly, i will be happy as long as we can just stay competitive.

by anormal on Dec 4, 2007 6:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Cuban is

roundly being blasted by the Dallas media on his motives for the film, "Redacted." However Cuban is a billionaire, so WTF does he care, even if he is aware of it which I doubt he is.

Dancing with the Stars is entertainment but financing a one sided movie about such a serious subject as the war in Irag, is just irresponsible.

Whatever you think about the war, this film like most films strive to sensationalize an event for PR. It's just unfortunate that a film that portrays one incident as being the norm, serves as great propoganda for our enemies to further inflame their Islamist crazies.

As far as Cuban owning the Cubs is concerned...last time I checked, all the money he's poured into the Mavericks hasn't produced an NBA title, so what makes you think he'll produce a World Series Championship for the Cubs?

When you've got'em by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow!

by Clute on Dec 4, 2007 7:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Cuban also was a producer of the film

Goodnight and Good Luck about Edward R. Murrow. I hope no young Arabs rent that and think America is black and white and everyone still smokes or that there is still actual journalism going on in this country.

by TR on Dec 4, 2007 7:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

An Inconvenient truth

Is an example of a movie that is designed to get people into action. Whether what is espouses is true or not, the movie is propaganda designed to spur people into action. Take that as an example of how movies can antagonize and rev-up the viewers if you honestly don't believe mass-media has an effect on public opinion.

I haven't seen "Good Night and Good Luck". I heard it was OK. I also heard it gave a little too much credit to Murrow as opposed to McCarthy making an ass of himself on national TV by calling out the Army, but whatever.

by Snake Plissken on Dec 4, 2007 8:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You know

I thought to myself I shouldn't reply, however, It is obvious you have no respect for the men/woman who serve, and for that I feel sorry for you.

by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Dec 4, 2007 8:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

good night good luck

is a great film. i don't think it is the least bit disrespectful of "those who serve" - though that always makes me think of waiters.....

by anormal on Dec 4, 2007 9:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks

your comments say it all.

by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Dec 4, 2007 9:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah,

edward r murrow did some amazing work back then. standing up to injustice is patriotism at its best.

by anormal on Dec 4, 2007 9:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You have to remember

this type of story sells in hollywood. I would think there are probably a number of stories where US troops went out of their way to help Iraqui's, but they choose to not tell that story.

Clearly, they have the right to make whatever movie they want, and hopefully they did a good job of being factual about something that happened and did not twist the facts. There have been cases where hollywood has done that (Oliver Stone & JFK) which was a movie based on a very important part of our history and it absolutely mutilated the truth.

I'm glad we live in a country where artists can put out what they want, and you hope they do a decent job of telling true life events with some responsibility.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Dec 4, 2007 5:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Time for NEW THREAD?

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 4, 2007 4:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Not tring to get into an Iraq debate

Believe it or not, I'M NOT PRO-WAR OR ANTI-WAR, but I can's abide this kind of political propaganda. And, I believe it to be relevant to this conversation. I don't want Cuban to buy the Cubs. I kind of did before I heard about this, but not now. But, if you disagree I respect that.

by Snake Plissken on Dec 4, 2007 4:40 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Not in favor of Cuban

also. I know people who have served and are serving currently in the Theater, and myself have done the same. It is by far a slap in the face who serve and did serve with honor. I will not go on a rant here, however unless your there or have someone who came from Iraq, I don't think you understand what the situation is.
Cuban stick to hoops, not baseball or the movies

by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Dec 4, 2007 6:16 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

A very Happy Hanukah

To all the other Jewish BCB'ers out there - and here's hoping Jim gets us a very good present this year!

There is no place like Nebraska - Go Huskers!

by sanantonecub on Dec 4, 2007 6:35 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

During Hanukkah

Aren't you supposed to get presents for eight days?

Maybe Hendry should take that tack.

I any case happy Hanukkah.

by Snake Plissken on Dec 4, 2007 8:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks Sanantonecub!

Same to you!

You must be one of 15 Jews in Nebraska!

Good for you!

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 4, 2007 7:05 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I believe...

... that Omaha has a decently sized Jewish population. I'm fairly sure Rosenblatt Stadium is named after a former Jewish mayor of Omaha.

DmL

by dmlichte on Dec 4, 2007 8:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

As dmlichte said

There is a decent Jewish population in Omaha for a midwestern city that isn't named Chicago.

However, while originally from Omaha, I'm currently in San Antonio (against my will, Uncle Sam makes me stay here) with the Air Force.

There is no place like Nebraska - Go Huskers!

by sanantonecub on Dec 4, 2007 8:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ohhh...

O.K.!

Thanks for the knowledge.

You must be so happy about Tom Osborne.

Before you know it, he'll start recruiting rapists and felons once more and the team will be right back up there ;-)

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 4, 2007 8:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well...

I guess you're going to be like the rest of America and let Lawrence Phillips be the face of a great coach. Oh well, your loss.

I was a supporter of the previous staff. That said, they lost the team this year. No clue what happened, but Tom's decision was made pretty easily. Here's hoping Bo Pelini will lead this team back to where they belong - a NC game.

There is no place like Nebraska - Go Huskers!

by sanantonecub on Dec 4, 2007 8:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

IIRC, it wasn't just

Lawrence Phillips. There were more players of "questionable character" on his teams.

Some would say, "What goes around, comes around."

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 4, 2007 9:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

NBA Entertainment league

its a league affiliated with the NBA but all the players are actors/singers/hollywood types. Somehow i doubt cuban is wearing the shirt to make some kind of "statement".

Here's a link:
http://www.nba.com/nbae/

by chrislykk22 on Dec 4, 2007 7:21 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

team sale

has anyone heard anything more about the idea of selling the team and wrigley separately? it seemed like that was all over the news for a while and then faded. perhaps the fan backlash nixed the idea, but i'm just curious if anyone has heard anything new about that.

by anormal on Dec 4, 2007 9:36 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

News is pretty dead on that front...

...altogether, because an exceedingly detailed set of financials needs to be put together before bidding can proceed.

But the general idea behind selling them seperately isn't to split the two assets; instead, it's intended to provide leverage to TribCo in scaring off other bidders so they can handpick the new owner and leave MLB and the owners with less veto power.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 4, 2007 10:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

that's interesting,

but i'm not sure i understand what you mean. how does the threat of splitting the two assets scare off some of the bidders?

by anormal on Dec 4, 2007 10:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Let's assume that the Trib wants to sell

to, say, Mark Cuban. Fits the spirit of Al's post, no?

Well, it's pretty well known that Selig and Company aren't thrilled with that concept. So what you do is you work out a deal with Cuban, and you sell him Wrigley Field. Then, the other bidding groups -- the Cannings, etc. -- drop out of the bidding, because owning the Cubs without Wrigley is nowhere near as appealing a process. Then MLB can either approve the sale of the whole ball of wax to Mark Cuban, or they can punt and not let the Tribune sell at all.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 4, 2007 10:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

ok, that makes sense

thanx for the clarification.

by anormal on Dec 4, 2007 10:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Figgins

Geoff Jenkins? No thanks. Figgins? That'd be nice! But unlikely. Link below.

http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2007/12/04/more-from-crasnick-hamilton-figgins-lohse-jones-inge-etc/

by em3 on Dec 4, 2007 9:44 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Critical of Cuban?

Al, why do you keep bashing Cuban for saying that he'd have seats marked out for himself in the bleachers? I'd probably do the same thing if I owned the Cubs, and Lord knows that you and a bunch of other bleacher regulars already practically do it, anyway...

by gjdow on Dec 5, 2007 12:53 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

The point is...

... by saying this, he calls attention to himself rather than to the team. I trust you see the difference.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 5, 2007 4:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I see the difference

But to be honest, I don't see why it's important either way. <shrug>

by gjdow on Dec 5, 2007 4:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Because...

... I don't want my team owner to make his ownership "all about him". I get the impression that if Cuban did buy the Cubs and they did win a championship under him, it would be all about Cuban rather than all about winning.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 7, 2007 8:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs