Bleed Cubbie Blue: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: Steve McNair Found Shot to Death


The Top 100 Cubs Of All Time - #7 Ron Santo

Bleed Cubbie Blue.

That's the name of this site, as you all well know, and as you can see on the logo to the left every single day.

Ernie Banks may be "Mr. Cub", but perhaps no player in Cubs history epitomizes the phrase "bleed Cubbie blue" better than Ron Santo.

For fourteen seasons he was the ballclub's third baseman. You've no doubt read about the more than 100 other players who have started at least one game there since Santo was traded away at the end of the 1973 season; it has taken thirty-four years, but perhaps at last the Cubs have now found a suitable successor to Santo in Aramis Ramirez.

If you never saw Santo play, you can't get a real sense of his accomplishments and what he means to the Cub franchise just by looking at his statistical line -- and that line is, in fact, outstanding. It is even more remarkable when you consider the fact that he fought, and is still fighting to this day, juvenile diabetes. Santo was the first high-profile professional athlete to reveal that he played sports at the major league level with this disease, which can debilitate and kill. In retrospect, knowing this makes his considerable accomplishments even more impressive. Even without that, his passion for playing the game could be seen every time he set foot on a baseball field.

Ronald Edward Santo was born in Seattle on February 5, 1940, and signed by the Cubs after graduation from high school in 1958. In that era, after a long period of fallowness, the Cub franchise was beginning to produce solid and star-quality major league players (among them Billy Williams, Dick Ellsworth, Lou Brock, and George Altman), and Santo's talent rocketed him through the farm system. Not long after he turned twenty years old, on June 26, 1960, he made his major league debut, playing both ends of a doubleheader at Forbes Field in Pittsburgh. The Cubs swept the eventual 1960 World Champions with Santo having a big day -- 3-for-7 with a double and five RBI. He started nearly every game for the rest of the 1960 season, and had fine numbers for a twenty-year-old: .251/.311/.409, with nine home runs. Santo's first major league home run (341 more were to come) was hit on July 3, 1960, at Wrigley Field off the Cincinnati Reds' Jim O'Toole.

Despite his diabetes -- which he concealed even from his teammates for many years -- Santo became one of the most durable players in baseball. He played in every game in 1961, 1962, 1963, 1965 (playing in a club-record 164 games in '65, tied with Billy Williams, including two tie games -- that's the second-most games played in a season in major league history. Only Maury Wills, in the Dodgers' playoff season of 1962, played in more), and 1968. By 1964 he had established himself as the best third baseman in the National League, had the first of his six All-Star selections, and finished eighth in MVP voting with a 30 HR, 114 RBI season and .312/.398/.564 with 86 walks. The patient Santo walked 86 or more times for seven consecutive seasons, from 1964 through 1970, leading the league four times in that period. For those of you who key on OPS as a Hall of Fame indicator, Santo was in the top six in NL OPS four consecutive seasons, from 1964 through 1967.

1964 was the first of four straight 30-homer seasons for Santo, and though he had "only" four 100-RBI seasons, he came oh-so-close to having eight straight; from 1963 through 1970 his RBI totals were 99, 114, 101, 94, 98, 98, 123 and 114, averaging 105 RBI over the eight seasons.

His best overall season, and also his most eventful season, was likely the 1966 season (though some might choose 1964 or 1969). He had career highs in BA, OBA and SLG (.312/.412/.538), leading the league in on-base percentage. He also set a club record (since broken) by hitting in 28 consecutive games.

Yet that performance got him only a twelfth-place finish in that year's MVP balloting, and part of the reason for that might have been an incident that occurred on June 26 when, in the first game of a doubleheader, Santo's cheek was broken by a pitch thrown by the Mets' Jack Fisher. That game featured a beanball war -- the Mets' Ron Swoboda and the Cubs' Adolfo Phillips had both been hit earlier in the day. Santo had to have surgery, breaking a consecutive-game streak at 390, but he was back in the lineup a week later.

The popular Santo -- he was so popular at one point that he began a suburban-based pizza operation, "Ron Santo's Pizza", and the pizza was for a couple of years sold at Wrigley Field -- and the Cubs broke through into pennant contention the following year, and despite a setback in 1968, were considered pennant favorites in 1969. Santo got off to a terrible start -- at the end of April, he was hitting only .205 -- but the Cubs won eleven of their first twelve, and it appeared they were well on their way to breaking a twenty-four year postseason drought.

Santo, never a man to shy away from showing his feelings, began clicking his heels as he would run off the field to the Cubs' clubhouse after home victories; at the time the clubhouse was located underneath the left-field stands (that door, still in the left-field corner, now leads to an area used by vendors), and so the players would all walk from the dugout across the field after the game, that year (at least till September) to the cheers of pennant-starved fans. Santo's heel-clicking became a popular sight, though some thought it a bit arrogant.

Meanwhile, the Cubs continued to win and Santo got hot. In June, July and August, he hit .320/.382/.529 with 18 HR and 75 RBI in 87 games. But dark shadows had begun to appear. On July 8 in New York, the Cubs took a 3-1 lead into the last of the ninth, but CF Don Young misplayed two fly balls (neither of which resulted in an error being charged), and the Mets scored three runs and won 4-3. Santo ripped Young in front of his teammates, and the incident made the papers (can you imagine what doing such a thing would cause now, with ESPN and blogs like BCB around?). He later apologized, but for the first time in his career was booed when the Cubs next played at Wrigley Field.

Without belaboring the 1969 collapse, it reached its crescendo when the Cubs returned to New York in September. The famous September 8 game in which Tommie Agee was called safe at a close play at the plate (and on which Randy Hundley jumped about ten feet in the air arguing, and to this day swears Agee was out) was also the game in which a black cat walked in front of Santo while he was in the Cub on-deck circle. Believe in superstition or not, as you choose, but it's no wonder that to this day in his broadcasting job, Santo hates taking road trips to Shea Stadium.

At age 30, and starting to feel the effects of a long career played with his disease, Santo's numbers began to decline in 1970. He had another 100-RBI season, but his average dropped to .267, and the following season his power also began to decline; he drove in only 88 runs, fewer than 94 for the first time in nine years.

It was in that year -- 1971, on August 28, as the Cubs were honoring him with Ron Santo Day at Wrigley Field -- that Santo at last revealed publicly his battle with juvenile diabetes. This began a lifelong association with JD foundations, including the local Chicago-area JDRF chapter, which has hosted the Ron Santo Walk to Cure Diabetes every year since 1974.

The rest of the 1970's weren't happy years, either in baseball or personally, for Santo. His production continued to decline, and in 1973, his mother and stepfather were killed in a car accident while driving to Arizona to see him play in spring training. At the end of that season, the team that shoulda, coulda, won it all for all of us was broken up, and Santo was among those to be traded away.

Before leaving the Cubs, though, he became the first player to invoke the ten-and-five rule under the collective bargaining agreement signed after the 1972 strike. The Cubs had agreed upon a deal to send Santo to the California Angels; the ballclub would have received in return two young pitchers: Andy Hassler, who went on to have a middling career as a reliever/spot starter, and Bruce Heinbechner, a very highly-regarded lefthanded pitching prospect. Santo didn't want to play on the West Coast and vetoed the deal. In a spooky coincidence, Heinbechner was killed in a car accident the following March, driving to Angels spring training in Palm Springs.

The Cubs still wanted to deal Santo, and since his preference was to stay in Chicago, they worked out a deal with the White Sox, acquiring catcher Steve Swisher, and three young pitchers: Jim Kremmel, Ken Frailing, and ... one of Santo's future co-broadcasters, Steve Stone.

Santo's stay on the South Side was miserable, and for him, mercifully brief. The White Sox already had a third baseman, Bill Melton, so Santo was relegated mostly to DH duty, which he hated. He wanted to play in the field, but Sox manager Chuck Tanner wouldn't bench Melton (who, to be fair, had had a couple of 30-HR seasons for them), so he tried Santo at second base, where, with no experience, he only embarrassed himself. Worn down by his disease, away from his familiar home at Wrigley Field, and finishing 1974 with a .221/.293/.299 mark, Santo retired from baseball at the age of 34.

And that's where this story might have ended. Santo spent fifteen years away from the game, though he continued to reside in the Chicago area. And year after year, he thought he might be elected to the Hall of Fame. And wasn't.

And so, in 1990, when Bob Brenly (see how all these people seem to come and go to the same places?) and DeWayne Staats both left WGN radio, Santo applied for the analyst position. He made no secret of the fact that one of his primary motivations for doing so was to get back into the game and perhaps get more "noticed" so he could get into the Hall.

WGN sent Santo and Thom Brennaman, who had applied for the play-by-play slot, to Florida to tape some sample games of the Senior Professional Baseball League, then a league for former players over 40, playing during the winter. Something about those broadcasts impressed WGN management, and they were hired.

My feelings about Brennaman as a broadcaster are well known, and Santo, with no previous on-air experience, was often baited into saying odd things by the also-then-inexperienced Brennaman (his hiring occurred after his father, Marty, turned the job down; at the time Thom's only broadcast experience was as a weekend TV sports anchor in Cincinnati). Only when Pat Hughes was hired to replace Brennaman in 1996 did Santo begin to really show off his likeable on-air personality. Hughes' gentle manner with Santo, who doesn't do real in-depth game analysis, makes for an entertaining partnership. Personally, I would prefer someone with more baseball analysis as my "color" guy on the radio. But I do know that Santo lives and dies with the Cubs and their fortunes, as do the rest of us, and that's in clear evidence in every single broadcast. Turn on the radio in the middle of the game not knowing the score, and within a few minutes Ron's demeanor will tell you whether the Cubs are winning or losing. His anguished scream, "Oh, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!", when Brant Brown dropped a catchable fly ball, costing the Cubs a key pennant-race game in Milwaukee on September 23, 1998, has become Cubs and broadcasting legend.

I believe absolutely, positively, that Ron Santo belongs in the Hall of Fame. When his number was retired by the Cubs on September 28, 2003, the day after the Cubs clinched the NL Central title, it was a cloudy, chilly day -- but the sun peeked through just long enough for Ron's speech, in which he thanked everyone and said, "THIS is my Hall of Fame." But, in my opinion, that should not be all -- Santo was the best third baseman of his generation, bar none, no, not even Brooks Robinson was better (Robinson's offensive numbers pale in comparison to Santo's, and though Robinson won 13 Gold Gloves to Santo's five, at least some of that can be attributed, again, to the diabetes that more or less ended Santo's career in his early 30's). He made nine All-Star teams, finished in the top eight on MVP ballots four times, and, arguably, there was a brief time in the mid-1960's when he could have been considered the best player in baseball. (Remember, I did say arguably!)

He has been denied Hall entry many times, most recently in 2005, and also two years earlier, when his son Jeff's documentary on Ron's life, "This Old Cub", was being filmed. In the film, the disappointment in Ron's eyes when he got Sharon Pannozzo's phone call saying he hadn't made it is heartbreakingly obvious. But "This Old Cub", which also details Ron's battle with diabetes, including the amputations of both his legs, shows him approaching that, and indeed all of life, with unfailing good humor. That truly shows the measure of him as a human being, a quality to admire in anyone.

There are presently at least two online petitions promoting Santo for the Hall, and the Cub Reporter recently posted a detailed three-part series on Santo's Hall merits, to which I commend all of you.

This year's Veterans Committee Hall voting is going on right now for possible inductions this summer. It would be wonderful to see Ron Santo on the dais with Cal Ripken Jr. and Tony Gwynn, given his rightful place with baseball's immortals. I daresay it might draw the largest crowd in Hall induction history. Results will be announced on February 27.

Ron Santo's admission to the Hall of Fame would be a fitting climax to a life given to baseball, as a player for fifteen years (14 as a Cub), and now entering his seventeenth year as a baseball broadcaster. And part of the reason he's so beloved by Cub fans, whether you like his broadcasting style or not, is that he's one of us -- having transformed himself from a Cubs player into a Cubs fan, "bleeding Cubbie blue" every single day.

Ron Santo's career stats at baseball-reference.com

0 recs | Comment 68 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Ron is #1 on my list
There may be some with better numbers (but not by much).  I've put Ron at the top of my 100.

by Ihatethecards on Feb 12, 2007 8:17 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Note
The thought of what Ron would say in a Hall of Fame indiction speech, the emotion that would surround and penatrate all of baseball fans including off the chart emtion to all Cubs fans. Brings tears to my eyes. (yes, sitting at work and weeping just at that wonderful thought)

I hope to god that baseball wakes up and enshrines this man!  

It takes 2 to lie. One to lie and one to listen! HJS

by Scott G F on Feb 12, 2007 8:31 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I know
I know for one I will need a box of tissues.  Heck 10 boxes of tissues.

I will also need one hopefully on February 25th because I know I'll get emotional if he's voted in.

I cry happy tears when it comes to sports more than sad tears.  I cried when the Bears won the NFC title game but didn't when they lost the Super Bowl for example.

2007 THE YEAR OF THE BEAR. Bears didn't quite do it. Cubs to finish job.

by kerrysotherwife on Feb 12, 2007 10:06 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Great write-up...
And I don't say that just to say it. Although most of it was known to me already, it's finally easy to see what's keeping him out: the early end to his career. True, most players have hit past their by that age, but few seem have hit such a hard decline starting at such a relatively early age (could you imagine if Soriano started declining that early?!?!).

Whether it was the one-and-only cause of his decline or not, others can say, but it's not a stretch to see that diabetes had an effect on the length of his career. Had he only had two or three more productive seasons, there's no doubt he'd be in.

Anyway, thanks for the info. Oh, and I would not want someone more in-depth for my color guy. In Omaha and working most of the time, I have probably listened to 100 games on the radio. I live and die Hughes/Santo, and I wouldn't have it any other way!

worthless...

by tyger1147 on Feb 12, 2007 8:31 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm in Lincoln
and it's WGN radio for me all summer long.

phat

by phatass on Feb 12, 2007 5:27 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nice job
I once read a story about Ron's first game as a Cub broadcaster. He was nervous, and in shuffling through a bunch of papers trying to find something, he knocked his coffee over, spilling it on himself and his papers. He uttered an expletive, only to realize that he was live on the air. He thought his broadcast career might begin and end on the same day. Luckily, it didn't.
"Eighty-five percent of the $#@&$ world's working! The other 15 come out here! A %&$&# playground for the $&&*@!"

by danimal15 on Feb 12, 2007 8:36 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Swisher
So that's where the Cubs got Swisher. I remember him as being part of an utterly awful Cub catching squad that also included George Mitterwald. Neither could hit. So to improve behind the plate, the Cubs brought along Tim Blackwell and Barry Foote. Needless to say, catching was not the strong point of that era.
"Eighty-five percent of the $#@&$ world's working! The other 15 come out here! A %&$&# playground for the $&&*@!"

by danimal15 on Feb 12, 2007 8:40 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Great profile
You did a great job on this, Al. I really love the way you finished the profile. Yes, he's one of us!

Those were some great days when Ron was clicking his heels!....and then came some real painful days.

I just can not understand why Ron's not in the Hall of Fame. Is there some hidden agenda or something? I just don't get it!!

I just feel so much better when I'm drinking beer.

by deadcatbounce on Feb 12, 2007 8:43 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I hope
he makes it into the Hall. I might be able to make the induction ceremony. That would be a top priority for me.

Another greet write up!

PTBNL!

by gravedigger on Feb 12, 2007 9:13 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Great job on the write-up

and, arguably, there was a brief time in the mid-1960's when he could have been considered the best player in baseball. (Remember, I did say arguably!)

True.  From '63-'68 Santo probably was the best player in baseball, ahead of Mays, F. Robinson, Aaron, Yastrzemski, Kaline, etc.

Bill James calls a 30 Win Share season an MVP-type season.  Santo had four such seasons.  By comparison, Dawson, who many people consider a Hall of Famer, had zero 30 win share seasons.

Simply a huge mistake that he's not yet in the Hall.

by VS on Feb 12, 2007 9:14 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

thanks for all the kind words!
santo was a great player, and his hall snub is absolutely inexplicable. he is one of the five best 3b of all time. there's no excuse.

two weeks from tomorrow, we hope to have good news about him. beyond his achievements on the field, his passion and joy for baseball are unmatched, and his approach to life, in the face of considerable obstacles, is admirable, to say the least.

"[BCB] is much better than... well, everything." -- gravedigger, January 21, 2007

by Al on Feb 12, 2007 9:24 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My goal this season...
is to make Ron Santo VERY AWARE of bleedcubbieblue.com, if he's not already. I shudder to think how much he'd enjoy living and dying with us on a weblog.
worthless...

by tyger1147 on Feb 12, 2007 9:42 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ah Yes
Pat: "Ronnie, tell us about the stuff of bleedcubbieblue.com"

Ron: "Well Pat, its a, its on the internet with, um, there are articles and, ya, people write up articles, I think they're called diaries, and well people respond, and I guess they call it a blug"

Pat: "Ronnie, I think you mean blog"

Ron: "Very definitely, Pat."

DmL

by dmlichte on Feb 12, 2007 11:40 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i think...
... maybe we could contact him before bcb day in the bleachers... could get a mention on the air, perhaps?
"[BCB] is much better than... well, everything." -- gravedigger, January 21, 2007

by Al on Feb 12, 2007 3:51 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good idea!
That would be awesome.
PTBNL!

by gravedigger on Feb 12, 2007 3:53 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

LOL!
Your post made my day, and I already was having a good day.

I miss Pat and Ron.  I can't wait to hear them again.

"I don't talk. I just let what I do talk for myself." -Johan Santana

by sparkles721 on Feb 12, 2007 7:35 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good Job
Realistically I know he's not a number one in terms of all-time Cubs, but he's certainly the embodient of what being a Cub is all about. Meeting and talking with him in the San Diego Hotel bar last year (and him buying our drinks!) ranks number one on my personal Cub highlight list. And yep, his speech would be one for the ages. He'd cry, we all would cry throughout the entire thing.
Santo Forever!

by BeerCub on Feb 12, 2007 9:33 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

three years ago
my wife interviewed Ron Santo for a diabetic cooking magazine she was editing.  I went along to his Arizona home to shoot the photographs.  He was gracious and articulate, and I revelled in the opportunity to get close up and personal with a hero from my younger days.

Two years later I was in the press dining room at Wrigley Field, and re-introduced myself to Santo.  He recalled parts of the conversation and the interview.  It wasn't just the hey how are you type of conversation.  That impressed me that he is just as fine a human being as he was a ballplayer.  

The Hall of Fame is poorer for not having him in it.

by Clark Addison on Feb 12, 2007 9:33 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Here here
to Santo making the hall. He deserves it and for all of us Santo fans it needs to come this year to insure Ron is here to enjoy it. Not sure what more the guy had to do to make it but one thing is for sure. Ronnie is one of us. Great job Al.
Spendry!!!

by mrcubsfan on Feb 12, 2007 9:46 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Santo
I am going to be on vacation when the HOF induction takes place.

Won't be far from Cooperstown.  If Ron is elected I am changing my iternary to be there.

2007 THE YEAR OF THE BEAR. Bears didn't quite do it. Cubs to finish job.

by kerrysotherwife on Feb 12, 2007 9:57 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Anyone else
Anyone else feel like I do that I basically think I  know who the next 6 are but am dying to know what order you have them in?  Besides Neifi Perez being #1 that is.
2007 THE YEAR OF THE BEAR. Bears didn't quite do it. Cubs to finish job.

by kerrysotherwife on Feb 12, 2007 9:56 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just as long as
Dave Owen is in there somewhere.
"Eighty-five percent of the $#@&$ world's working! The other 15 come out here! A %&$&# playground for the $&&*@!"

by danimal15 on Feb 12, 2007 10:58 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Santo and the HOF
Ryno now being on the vets committee may be a big help.

Ryne is very respected among baseball players especially after his speech.  His influence may help.

Hopefully he will be in this time but Ripken got to know Banks when he broke the SS homerun record and is in Santo's corner.

2007 THE YEAR OF THE BEAR. Bears didn't quite do it. Cubs to finish job.

by kerrysotherwife on Feb 12, 2007 9:59 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh and a Santo story
My friend is a nurse a diabetes center in Australia.   It's in an area in the middle of nowhere almost and people come in from miles away for testing, insulin, checkups etc.

For the most part the staff don't know baseball from a hole in the ground.

But because of what he's done they all know who Ron is.

When she joined the internet group I belong to she noticed I am from Chicago and asked if I was a Cubs fan or at least know who Ron Santo is.

I said "Of course" to both and she told me how much they all admire him.

I encouraged her to write him and she did.  He replied if you're ever in Chicago let me know.

Summer of 05 she did come to Chicago and did let him know.  She was invited up to the booth and met him and Pat and I got to go with her.

2007 THE YEAR OF THE BEAR. Bears didn't quite do it. Cubs to finish job.

by kerrysotherwife on Feb 12, 2007 10:02 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Great Story
Ron gets a bunch of credit from his work with JDRF, but ever so, probably not enough credit.

by Ihatethecards on Feb 12, 2007 11:14 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pardon the can of worms
Pardon the can of worms I am about to open.

Has Santo become Mr. Cub?  or maybe Mr. Cub 2?

2007 THE YEAR OF THE BEAR. Bears didn't quite do it. Cubs to finish job.

by kerrysotherwife on Feb 12, 2007 10:04 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Banks will always
be Mr. Cub but the face of the Cubs is certainly Ron Santo. Everyone knows of him (thanks to the endless promos from Pat Hughes) and is so visible within the organization. I think the correct title for Ron should be Mr. Bleedcubbieblue. Any other thoughts on what he nick name could become?
Spendry!!!

by mrcubsfan on Feb 12, 2007 10:14 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mr. Cub
Mr Banks is Mr. Cub. He might the historical face of the franchise, but Ron Santo is its soul.
It takes 2 to lie. One to lie and one to listen! HJS

by Scott G F on Feb 12, 2007 10:57 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's a very good distinction...
... and I think sums up the two personalities perfectly.
"[BCB] is much better than... well, everything." -- gravedigger, January 21, 2007

by Al on Feb 12, 2007 2:37 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

(Not reading comments before this)
Is there a reason there's no "Ron Santo's career stats at baseball-reference.com" at the bottom of this one?
Los Cachorros!

by Laven on Feb 12, 2007 10:44 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Because I forgot.
I'll fix it.
"[BCB] is much better than... well, everything." -- gravedigger, January 21, 2007

by Al on Feb 12, 2007 2:36 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Santo's HOF case
is a fairly easy one to make.  The Hall voters have screwed up 3B royally, electing Freddie Lindstrom and George Kell, while keeping Santo out.  I don't know that Santo is a a top-5 3B, but he's clearly a top 10.  You're one of the top 10 at your position over 140 years or so, you ought to be in the Hall.

Santo got hurt because he never got to the WS and because his career got cut short.  The WS made all of America aware of Brooks Robinson--and he played 8 more years than Santo.  But compare their OBP/SLA/OPS:

Brooks 322/401/723
Santo  362/464/826

In fact, compare Santo with Ryno:

Ryno  344/452/792
Santo 362/464/796

Santo had also the misfortunate of being a contemporary of Mike Schmidt, the consensus all-time 3B.  But really, Ron's HoF credentials are clear.  Unfortunately, I have no faith that the current system will elect anyone anytime some.  Some of these old farts apparently have decided that they don't want to share the platform with any other veterans--and with a 75% rule, it only takes a few to keep everyone out.  

by bleacher on Feb 12, 2007 10:44 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

At the Time He Retired
He was easily in the top 5.  Schmitt had started to make an impact by the time Santo retired, but was only 24.   Brooks was still playing and, while I think it is wrong, a case could be made that he was better than Santo.   And Eddie Matthews.  And that's pretty much it.  Santo was either number 2 or 3 at the time that he retired, and looking at it retrospectively, was 3 or 4 (since Schmitt had started his career).

Even now, he's just barely out of the Top 5.

by frustratedfan on Feb 12, 2007 10:50 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually...
... Schmidt and Santo weren't really contemporaries; Schmidt's career began as Santo's was ending.

Put Santo in the higher-offense 1970's and I'd bet he would have hit 450 HR (even in only 15 seasons), and he'd have been in the Hall long ago.

"[BCB] is much better than... well, everything." -- gravedigger, January 21, 2007

by Al on Feb 12, 2007 3:27 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oops
The Santo/Ryno comparison should look like this:

Ryno  344/452/796
Santo 362/464/826

Ryno is actually closer to Smilin' Stan Hack than to Santo:

Hack 394/397/793

by bleacher on Feb 12, 2007 10:47 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ron is one of the best!
I put Ron #3 on my all time list but he is certainly given a very respectable #7 here.  Growing up one of my favorite souvenirs was a large autographed photo of Ron that I got at the Kroger's supermarket.

His play at third base was unrivaled in the NL.  He was a hard nosed player who always gave his best.

Ron deserves to be in the Hall of Fame if anybody deserves it.

by billkelly on Feb 12, 2007 12:00 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This Old Cub
It's quickly become tradition that each Spring I pop in my DVD of "This Old Cub" as an official kickoff to the new season.

While I unfortunately wasn't old enough to ever see him play, as a Cubs fan, and a Type I diabetic myself, I have become a huge fan of Ron Santo.  He's one of the true ambassadors of the game and his omission from the Hall is an awful shame.

Here's to Ron in the HOF 2007!

Thunder Matt's Saloon - http://thundermatt.blogspot.com

by Chip Wesley on Feb 12, 2007 12:09 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

When I saw "This Old Cub"
in the movie theater, a gentleman probably in his 60's sat next to me. After some initial small talk,  he said he hasn't been to the movies in over 20 years.  But he had to see "This Old Cub."  I could tell he loved watching every second of the film.

by Neifi Puppy on Feb 12, 2007 12:30 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Veteran's Committee 2007
Great job, Al, on a great profile.  Ron Santo, as I said the other day, is what the Cubs are all about.  It's just a shame that he can't get the recognition nationally that he gets here in Chicago, and from Cubs Nation in general.

And regarding the Veteran's Committee election this year, don't hold your breath, folks.  I hate to be such a downer, but it is simply not going to happen this year.  No way.  With Cal Ripken and Tony Gwynn, two of baseball's Golden Boys on the stage, there is no way the HOF wants them to have to share the stage with anyone, much less someone like Santo, who would totally steal the show.  The audience would be full of Cub fans, Santo would get by far the biggest response and the loudest ovation, and the most media attention, and there is no way they are going to let that happen to Cal Ripken and Tony Gwynn, who have been measuring the wall for their plaques and practicing their induction speeches for 20 years.  It's totally political, it's not at all fair, but I can pretty much guarantee you that it will not happen for Santo in 2007.  You can take that to the bank.

"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Feb 12, 2007 12:42 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I hope I'm wrong....
but wait and see.  There are times where the HOF voting is more politcal than the Oscars.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Feb 12, 2007 2:19 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I will disagree...
...with you.  I think having Sandberg as a voting member this year (and as a voice of respect thanks to his speech last year), and the growing discontent in the Hall over what to do about steroids inflated athletes will cause a lot of Veterans Committee members to change their minds.  Heck, Mike Schmidt recently said he's changed his mind about Santo, given what has happened (or will eventually happen) with the steroids-age players.

Plus, don't think that the Veteran's Committee will worry about Ripken and Gwynn getting overshadowed....A) there is no chance of that, since we're talking about a guy most baseball fans were too young to ever see play, and B) if anything, inducting Cal, Tony, AND Ron would be a ratings and press BOON for the Hall of Fame, calling attention to 3 guys who clearly "played the game the way it was meant to be played" and diverting press attention from the man who ISN'T at the ceremony (McGwire).

by Chadnudj on Feb 12, 2007 6:22 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

agreed
I think having Ryno there will make a big difference, especially since he mentionned Ronnie by name in his induction speech. I'd like to think he's out there campaigning like crazy for him right now.
HENDRY!

by cubbiejulie on Feb 12, 2007 6:30 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We'll see.
As I said, I sure hope you are right.  As a lifelong Cubs fan, I don't know why I'm not optimistic about this, but I'm standing by my original prediction.  My prediction is he'll be right in the 65-70% range like always.  I think there is a small minority of very bitter and close-knit malcontents in that voting group that do not want him in their club.  It's petty and stupid and, I believe, completely a personal issue they have with Ron Santo THE MAN, not the ballplayer.  I have no proof of this, of course, but that's the way I see it.  There is no other explanation for this obvious Hall of Famer not having been voted in years ago.    
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Feb 12, 2007 6:39 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Who are you disagreeing with?
I don't think I was stating an opinion.

Though, I agree with you.  Also think that the Vets Committee might want to shed their stingy reputation, since they have failed to select any player since they got a say.

PTBNL!

by gravedigger on Feb 12, 2007 6:40 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks!
Where have you been? Haven't seen you around here much.
"[BCB] is much better than... well, everything." -- gravedigger, January 21, 2007

by Al on Feb 12, 2007 3:25 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

FF's right...
Santo is close to a top-5 3B.  There are currently just 10 3B's in the Hall:

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofst3b.shtml
(for some reason this list doesn't have Wade Boggs)

Here's their career OPS+/total bases/years:

Schmidt   147/4404/18 yrs
Mathews   143/4349/17 yrs
Brett     135/5044/21 yrs
Baker     135/2647/13 yrs
Boggs     130/4064/18 yrs
Santo     125/3779/15 yrs
Collins   113/2778/13 yrs
Kell      111/2773/15 yrs
Lindstrom 110/2519/13 yrs
Traynor   107/3289/17 yrs
BRobinson 104/4270/23 yrs

There's no justification for Collins, Kell, Lindstom, and Traynor being in the Hall and not Santo.  That would make him 7th on the all-time list.  Robinson's case vs Santo is glove-work and longevity.  I don't think any amount of longevity overcomes a 125 vs. 104 OPS+, and I seriously doubt he saved enough runs with his glove to overcome it, either.  There is a case for Ron vs. Home Run Baker.  Baker's career was short, but he might have been the greatest clutch hitter of all time.

Even if Ron is behind Baker, he's still #6.  Interestingly, Schmidt, Brett, Boggs, Kell, and Robinson have a Veterans Committee vote.  I'd love to know how they marked their ballots.

by bleacher on Feb 12, 2007 2:55 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And of those above Santo
Brett, Boggs, and Schmidt either hadn't even started their careers, or in the case of Schmidt were very early into the career.   Brooks hadn't yet put up the counting stats, but likely was already pretty much in the hall due to the "famous" World Series performances, but not above Santo.  That puts Ron behind Matthews and perhaps behind Baker.  (Personally I have him ahead of Baker.  Mind you Baker was a very good player, but his reputation benefited quite a bit from the Nick Name.  If Ronnie had been nicknamed "The Saint" or something similar, it would have added enough to the aura to get him in.  

He's a very easy vote for the HOF.  And the longer he is not in the hall of fame the more credibility is lost by the hall.

by frustratedfan on Feb 12, 2007 5:09 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I love...
Ron Santo, if I could meet one sports personality, it would be him. NO question. Every time I think about him not being in the Hall I get really pissed. It unexplainable. Seriously, what are these guys thinking.

by theantigoat on Feb 12, 2007 6:07 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

oops again
I guess I left 3 Negro League guys out of the 3B Hall list: Ray Dandridge, Judy Johnson, and Jud Wilson.  But we don't have stats on those guys or, if we do, they're not complete.  And it's not entirely clear what to make of Negro League stats, anyway.

That Cub Reporter 3-part series was great.  He also has Santo as #6 all-time.  Bill James seems to be in agreement, too, that Ron was better overall than Brooks.  Whether Santo was better than Baker doesn't really matter, since his case for the Hall is solid, even if he wasn't.  (But it wasn't just Baker's nickname: it was how he got it, hitting 2 clutch dingers in the '11 series and helping the A's to win 3 WS in '10. '11, and '13, hitting .409, .375, and .450, w/ 3 HRs and 16 RBIs in 16 WS games.)

by bleacher on Feb 12, 2007 6:44 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

boyhood hero
Ron came up the year I really got into watching the Cubs, as a wide-eyed 9 yr. old. He was, and has been, my baseball hero all my life. Having Ron make the Hall, would be the closest thing to seeing the Cubs play in the Series to me. Either would be a dream come true that I never thought I'd see. BTW, while the committee is at it, they should put Buck O'Neill in for his long & meritorious service to the game.

by KedzieKid on Feb 12, 2007 7:33 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Two factors
fuel the anti-Santo vote.

One was his heel clicking after Cubs wins in 1969.  Many thought that was unprofessional, and showed up the opposition.  His public dressing down of Don Young may also have added to peoples' resentment.

The second factor is that Williams, Banks,and Jenkins are already in the hall and the team never won anything.  They probably feel that the Cubs of that era aren't worthy of having four members in the hall.  (Five if you include The Lip, who earned his hall credentials elsewhere.)

by Clark Addison on Feb 12, 2007 7:45 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Unfortunately.....
I think you are exactly right on both counts.  Maybe the pro-Santo forces will win out someday, but I would be more confident if he had been in the 70-74% range in past votes.  But he is always in that 65-70% range, and that is a lot of old, stubborn, and egotistical minds to change.  
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Feb 12, 2007 8:17 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sooner or later................
..........I knew I'd have to reach for the barf bag.

That time is now.

Santo is on the outside for many reasons, not the least of which is he was known around the league as a jerk (reference the heel clicking, etc.).  Now he hopes those he offended will let the past slip away, allowing him into the most sacred of all baseball grounds.

The shameless politicking for Santo and the folly of him joining the HOF should be an embarassment to us all.  Instead it serves as a rallying cry.  After all of the BS being doled out by so many people, how could Santo possibly accept getting in the Hall with a straight face.  A man should have more respect for himself.

Thanks to Al for having the decency to point out this radio escapade as the initial shill move by Santo.  If fans really want to hear "oohs" and "aahs" all they need to do is listen to themselves when they watch the Cubs.  Santo SHOULD BE getting paid to provide more, but that seems to be lost on the masses.  I use XM when the Cubs are on the road because it's better to listen to the OPPOSITION'S ANNOUNCERS than to struggle through the dribble from Ron's mouth.

It's strange to see a person be altruistic about some things - as he is for diabetes - yet make no bones about seeking forums to spread the word of "SANTO FOR THE HALL".  Doesn't anyone see a paradox in this?

by tville on Feb 12, 2007 9:58 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So...
...basically, he shouldn't be in the HOF because he clicked his heels?

I'm glad you don't have a vote.

PTBNL!

by gravedigger on Feb 12, 2007 10:36 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Uhm, not entirely...........
..........but there MUST be other reasons or else he'd be in the HOF.

We may not know all of those reasons, but after a score of years the Baseball Writers didn't put him in, and over the years since then Santo's been repeatedly rejected by the Veterans Committee.

I guess they have their reasons, to say nothing of the votes.  Perhaps the "SANTO FOR GOD" crap is one of the issues they find unsavory.

by tville on Feb 12, 2007 11:12 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't buy that
The Baseball Writers are perhaps the biggest group of morons ever assembled.  In fact, I have little respect for the institution of the Hall of Fame simply because they are the sole decision makers for entry.  

Do you care to mention any statistical reasons why Santo shouldn't be in the Hall?  Several posters have given detailed analysis showing why he ought to be, and nobody has stepped forth with stats showing that he shouldn't.

You don't like the guy?  That's too bad.  There's some real assholes in the HOF.  You may not think so but it really doesn't appear that Santo is a bad guy.  You've not given one reason that he shouldn't be in the Hall other than rumor and innuendo that his opponents didn't like him.  Or that there's some great conspiracy.  Those are not valid reasons for denying him Hall status.

PTBNL!

by gravedigger on Feb 12, 2007 11:29 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Barf Bag
Ah, you must have read your own comment.  It certainly made me reach for the barf bag.

The Hall of Fame is not the Hall of the Nice Guys who played baseball pretty well, its the Hall of the Baseball Players who plyaed the game very well -- whether or not they were nice guys or not.  And without question Santo played the game very well and has earned his way into the Hall of Fame.  If you are going to deny Santo entry into the Hall because he clicked his heels, then you need to deny Cobb because he used to sharpen his spikes and go at his opponents legs, Don Drysdale because he would throw at players that crowded the plate (heck a whole bunch of guys did that).   Roger Clemens becuase he has been such a jerk in chosing teams over the past few years.  Cap Anson because he was a racist.   And so forth.

Shameless politicing?  Its only shameless if one is trying to get someone who has not earned his way into the Hall.   What really is going on is an attempt to beat some sense into the voters head.  Too many of them have cranial-rectal inversion.    

by frustratedfan on Feb 13, 2007 12:11 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Did you ever . . .
listen to Phil Rizzuto?

by deJesus Freak on Feb 14, 2007 12:16 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I feel I was fortunate
Young enough to see Santo play,and attend his "Day," Ernie's "Day," and Billy's "Day."
And lucky enough to be in town when Ryno had his day!

I'm out of the Santo discussion, I've posted essays in the past about his qualifications.  I'm not going to repeat myself. I have posted his numbers in the context of the era. ("Clicking his heels" is irrelavant.) His stats, very similar to those of Brooks Robinson -- are.

No question, HOF caliber.

by Smooth Jazz Man San Diego on Feb 12, 2007 10:04 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

However,
his damn pizza was terrible.
I think I might have a 'flattened out box' of the product stored away in a box of mementos. Wonder what it might be worth?

by Smooth Jazz Man San Diego on Feb 12, 2007 10:13 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

mmm...cardboard
Funny, I remember the pizza tasting exactly like a flattened-out pizza box.

by Tracy on Feb 13, 2007 9:01 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

thank you Al
Al, that was just great. I know you have expressed personal doubts about Santo's broadcasting abilities, but you did not let that intrude on writing a wonderful tribute to one of my all time favorite Cubs.
wccubfan

by wccubfan on Feb 13, 2007 4:14 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Santo's plaque at the Hall of Merit:
The greatest NL 3B of the 1960's and arguably the greatest in the major leagues during the decade. Many feel he is the best to ever man the "hot corner" for the Chicago NL franchise. A fine offensive player noted for his walks and power (four times with over 30 home runs), the right-handed slugger batted .300 and drove in at least 100 runs 4 times. His 342 HR were second all-time among 3B at the time of his retirement. His amazing durability (in 1966, he set the NL record for consecutive games played at third base with 390) had him ranked 3rd all-time in games played at 3B when he retired. An outstanding fielder, Santo led the NL in total chances 9 times (a ML record), 7 times in putouts, assists (both a NL record number of times), and games, 6 times in double plays, and once in fielding percentage. He retired with the NL records for most assists (4,532) and double plays (389). He was an emotional player who always had his heart on his sleeve, and a fan favorite during his Cubbie years. Five-time NL Gold Glove Award winner (1964-68). Five-time STATS, Inc. NL Third Baseman (1964, 1967-69, 1972). Win Shares NL MVP (1967). Seven-time Win Shares NL Gold Glove Award winner (1963-68, 1971). Nine-time All-Star (1963-66, 1968-69, 1971-73). NL leader for OBP (1964, 1966), G (1963, 1965), 3B (1964), BB (1964, 1966-68), Times on Base (1964, 1966-67), and Sac. Flies (1963, 1967, 1969). Retired with the Cubs' franchise single-season records for G (164 in 1965) and Sac. Flies (14 in 1969).

by bleacher on Feb 15, 2007 11:26 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Bleed Cubbie Blue, the Chicago Cubs blog for the SB Nation, created on February 9, 2005 by Al Yellon
Start posting about the Cubs »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Images_small
Creative Writing: July 1, the Day that Changed Everything
Pitching3_small
OT: The Next Generation: The Playoffs
Small
Cubs need to make a trade
Sexy_chicago_cubs_002_small
My Own Personal Forgetting DeRosa Pictures....Sure to make you smile.
Small
Top Prospects part 1

Recent FanPosts

340x_small
Command and control
Sandberg_small
Done Being Patient With Soriano
Small
Center field vs. last year
Cubs-5_small
Questions about new ownership...
Cutler_small
Mike Fontenot demotion?
Capt_5375a8d00e0742c0864cdb642c18eb1f_pirates_cubs_zambrano_ejected_baseball_cxc109_small
What to do with the bench
Small
Booing or not booing and why
L_bb30e2f156464d9a95bd9408091eb725_small
The Cubs need to go 7-4 the next 11 games.
Fukudome_bleachers_small
The Top 5 Cubs Games of June

Post_icon New FanPost All FanPosts Carrot-mini

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recommended FanShots

via ESPN

Ronald Reagan
AP Photo/Charles Tasnadi

President Ronald Reagan throws out the ceremonial first pitch Sept. 30, 1988, at Wrigley Field before the Chicago Cubs played host to the Pittsburgh Pirates. Reagan later went to the broadcast booth and helped announce the first part of the game.
Cubs deal for Rockies' Jeff Baker
Bart Given on Gameboard vs. Lou
Cubs calling up outfielder Sam Fuld
Len Kasper's Lunch With Ernie Harwell

Recent FanShots

Peoria Chiefs @ Kane County Cougars 7/3/09
Coincidence or not, Soto has hit .315 with five home runs and 10 RBIs in...
Aramis Ramirez and Reed Johnson during warm ups at their rehab assignment with the Peoria Chiefs at Kane County.  Aramis Ramirez missed a home run by about 2 feet at his first at bat and ended up with a stand up double.  He later took a base-on-balls and scored twice. Reed Johnson also had a hit and scored.  Here are the rest of the photos.
Sam Fuld to lead off Saturday
Cubs sign Casey Fossum to a Minor League Deal
7/3:Cubs vs. Brewers

It's more walk-off magic for the Cubs, when a bases-leaded walk to Jake Fox gives them the 2-1, extra-innings win.

Damen Jackson (Cubbie Nation)
7/3:Cubs vs. Brewers

It's yet another episode of "Outfield Adventures", starring Milton Bradley, as he'd lose this Jason Kendall-hit ball in the sun Friday against the Brewers.


Damen Jackson (Cubbie Nation)
7/3:Cubs vs Brewers

Jeff Suppan is thrown out by Kosuke Fukudome in the seventh inning of the Cubs 2-1 win.

Or as Kenny Powers would put it, "You're %@$@#!! out!!"

Damen Jackson (Cubbie Nation)
"Sources tell me Soriano will bat 6 in tomorrows lineup vs....
Buster Olney said a few days ago that the Braves would entertain offers for their 26 year old shortstop (who makes 450k) Yunel Escobar. He is a plus bat, a solid defender, and would move Theriot to his more appropriate position at second.

They are looking for a bat in return. Apparently Cox doesn't like the guy. 

I couldn't even speculate what we'd have to send them in return, but I think he would be a good fit given his low salary, his productive bat, his position, and his age.  I don't care if he's a jerk if he makes the team win more.

What would it take?

Post_icon New FanShot All FanShots Carrot-mini

Cubs By The Numbers

Cubs By The Numbers is a history of the ballclub by uniform number, but the biographies help trace the history of our beloved team in a new way. For everyone who's a Cubs fan, anyone who ever wore the uniform is like family. Cubs By The Numbers reintroduces readers to some of their long-lost ancestors, even ones they think they already know.

Click here to order your copy, available now!

Recent Stories in Game Threads

Yelloncard_small
Overflow Thread 3: Cubs vs. Brewers, Saturday 7/4, 12:05 CT
Yelloncard_small
Overflow Thread 2: Cubs vs. Brewers, Saturday 7/4, 12:05 CT
Yelloncard_small
Overflow Thread 1: Cubs vs. Brewers, Saturday 7/4, 12:05 CT

Recent Stories in Ticket Exchanges

Yelloncard_small
Ticket Exchanges: July 24-30 Homestand
Yelloncard_small
Ticket Exchanges: General 2009 Ticket Exchange
Yelloncard_small
Ticket Exchanges: July 2-12 Homestand

SPONSORS


Editor-in-Chief

Yelloncard_small Al

Editorial Cartoonist

Toonmike_small toonmike

Contributors

Dsc_0139_small holy mackerel

100px-boisehawkscaplogo_small Josh77

Official Partner of Yahoo! Sports