Top 10

by danimal15 on Feb 8, 2007 11:10 AM CST

Now seems as good a time as any to speculate on what Al's top 10 Cub list will look like.

Here are the best Cubs I can think of who haven't yet appeared in the top 100, in no particular order:

Ernie Banks
Ron Santo
Billy Williams
Fergie Jenkins
Cap Anson
Three Finger Brown
Gabby Hartnett
Sammy Sosa
Billy Herman
Ryne Sandberg

There's no longer any question about the players. What's going to be interesting is the order. Was Sandberg or Herman the best second baseman in Cub history (my vote is for Sandberg, who had much better power and was a better fielder than Herman)? Was Jenkins or Brown the best pitcher? Was Sammy Sosa better than Billy Williams? How does Cap Anson, who played in the 19th century, fit in with these 20th century players? How much does Sosa get docked due to his attitude and possible steroid use?

I won't even try to make a top 10 list (that's Al's job, and he's done a very good one so far). But of course, anyone else is welcome to insert these players into an order they see fit. Then we can compare with what Al ultimately decides. I look forward to the next 10 days!

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Comments

I was going to ...

... make a diary like this myself, so thanks to danimal for doing it.

He is correct -- the Cubs named are the top 10. Now, let's see how YOUR order matches mine.

"[BCB] is much better than... well, everything." -- gravedigger, January 21, 2007

by Al Yellon on Feb 8, 2007 11:15 AM CST reply actions

My top 10

Ernie Banks
Sammy Sosa
Cap Anson
Three Finger Brown
Ron Santo
Fergie Jenkins
Ryne Sandberg
Billy Williams
Gabby Hartnett
Billy Herman

This is Fun!

If you think you've seen it all...just wait!

by CubFanSince1970 on Feb 8, 2007 11:16 AM CST reply actions

You forgot Mitch Webster.

n/t

HENDRY!

by cubbiejulie on Feb 8, 2007 11:16 AM CST reply actions

Webster

He's in a category by himself, above all the rest.

Except for Davey Lopes.

"Eighty-five percent of the $#@&$ world's working! The other 15 come out here! A %&$&# playground for the $&&*@!"

by danimal15 on Feb 8, 2007 11:38 AM CST up reply actions

Al,

WTF?! No Neifi?!

UZI

"We don't make mistakes here, we just have happy accidents. Everything is possible here. This is your little universe." - Bob Ross

by Ozgreeder on Feb 8, 2007 11:20 AM CST reply actions

Nope.

And no Freddie Bynum, either. Sorry to disappoint.

"[BCB] is much better than... well, everything." -- gravedigger, January 21, 2007

by Al Yellon on Feb 8, 2007 11:25 AM CST up reply actions

It is simply a given

that Neifi! is always at the top of any all-time greatest list. The only baseball player greater than Neifi! is Chuck Norris.

by Neifi Puppy on Feb 8, 2007 11:25 AM CST up reply actions

When Chuck Norris does push ups,

ho doesn't push himself up, he pushes the world down.

HENDRY!

by cubbiejulie on Feb 8, 2007 11:26 AM CST up reply actions

Chuck Norris does not sleep.

He waits.

I didn't have the ball, bitch!

by daver on Feb 8, 2007 11:29 AM CST up reply actions

Last year...

6,233 people suffered from shark bites. However, 10,353 sharks suffered from Chuck Norris bites.

UZI

"We don't make mistakes here, we just have happy accidents. Everything is possible here. This is your little universe." - Bob Ross

by Ozgreeder on Feb 8, 2007 11:53 AM CST up reply actions

chuck norris sleeps with a nighlight

not because he is afraid of the dark, but because the dark is afraid of him.

AC 00 00 00 - BELIEVE

by mike @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Feb 8, 2007 12:06 PM CST up reply actions

FWIW

My father in law was one of Norris' advanced martial arts instructors back in the 70's. He said Norris was a "pussycat" until he took a good hit, then he was "beyond brutal."

Santo Forever!

by BeerCub on Feb 8, 2007 1:13 PM CST up reply actions

Three lethal weapons

Chuck Norris' right leg, Chuck Norris' left leg and Chuck Norris' third leg. Nuff said.

by whoshotjr on Feb 8, 2007 9:30 PM CST up reply actions

My top ten

Ryne Sandberg
Cap Anson
Billy Williams
Ron Santo
Ernie Banks
Gabby Hartnett
Fergie Jenkins
Three Finger Brown
Sammy Sosa
Billy Herman

I have Banks lower than everybody else because once he moved to 1B, his game was very one-dimensional, home run or bust. He had Pattersonesque OBP rates.

Sosa drops from #6 to #9 list due to the entire 2004 season.

by Invalid User on Feb 8, 2007 11:28 AM CST reply actions

Pretty weird....

Gabby Hartnett died on his 72nd birthday....

Check out my daily baseball blog at MLB-threeSIXTYfive

by TheBeerBaron on Feb 8, 2007 11:28 AM CST reply actions

my top ten

1. Ernie Banks
Cap Anson
Billy Williams
Three Finger Brown
Ryne Sandberg
Fergie Jenkins
Ron Santo
Sammy Sosa
Gabby Hartnett
Billy Herman

Spendry!!!

by mrcubsfan on Feb 8, 2007 11:31 AM CST reply actions

Banks

I don't think he was the greatest player statistically the Cubs ever had, but he is Mr. Cub. Therefore, I think he needs to be number one.

"Eighty-five percent of the $#@&$ world's working! The other 15 come out here! A %&$&# playground for the $&&*@!"

by danimal15 on Feb 8, 2007 11:36 AM CST reply actions

How about..

1 Ernie Banks
2 Ron Santo
4 Billy Williams
3 Fergie Jenkins
7 Cap Anson
6 Three Finger Brown
9 Gabby Hartnett
10 Sammy Sosa
8 Billy Herman
5 Ryne Sandberg

by Damen Jackson on Feb 8, 2007 11:37 AM CST reply actions

Your list

I think you have Sosa too far down. There's no way Billy Herman is better than Sosa. (Although Billy Herman probably never sneaked out of the clubhouse in the middle of a game).

"Eighty-five percent of the $#@&$ world's working! The other 15 come out here! A %&$&# playground for the $&&*@!"

by danimal15 on Feb 8, 2007 11:40 AM CST up reply actions

Danimal...

When you compile a list like this, you are talking about intangibles as much, if not more so than the tangible. Ernie Banks is not generally considered Mr. Cub because he had the best stats, but because he is loved by the fans and was a great player. Much of the Sammy intangibles left over the last few years in the hearts and minds of fans. Maybe that changes over time, but right now I at least will take a Three Finger over Sammy any day.

by Damen Jackson on Feb 8, 2007 11:47 AM CST up reply actions

Point taken

"Eighty-five percent of the $#@&$ world's working! The other 15 come out here! A %&$&# playground for the $&&*@!"

by danimal15 on Feb 8, 2007 12:19 PM CST up reply actions

I'd probably rank Billy Williams #1

On paper Cap Anson is #1, but I just can't honestly rank him that high knowing that in some ways it was such a different game in his time.

Was Jenkins or Brown the best pitcher?

I feel pretty confident saying Brown was the better pitcher. They played in vastly different eras but Browns peak was absurdly awsome. He's probably one of the top 10 pitchers of all time. Jenkins, while also great, is clearly behind IMO.

Top 5 ERA+ seasons

Brown - 253(!), 193, 179, 160, 155
Jenkins - 143, 133, 127, 126, 120

Both were workhorses, routinely completing 20-30 games a season and had great control. Dave Studeman, who runs Baseball Graphs, says this about Brown:

Brown was the Greg Maddux of his day. He didn't strike out many batters, but he also didn't walk many and benefited from perhaps the greatest fielding team of the 20th century, the Cubs of 1904-1910.

Was Sammy Sosa better than Billy Williams?

At their peaks Sosa was clearly better, but Williams has more career value so I pick him.

Top 5 OPS+ seasons

Sosa - 201, 169, 160, 160, 141
Williams - 170, 157, 147, 147, 142

BP's Rate has Williams as the better fielder and he does have a big edge in OF assists (219 to 142).

by VS on Feb 8, 2007 11:42 AM CST reply actions

Good stuff - thanks

"Eighty-five percent of the $#@&$ world's working! The other 15 come out here! A %&$&# playground for the $&&*@!"

by danimal15 on Feb 8, 2007 11:46 AM CST up reply actions

Sigh.

Nice research, but again keep in mind that this list is not, never has been, and never will be strictly based on statistics.

"[BCB] is much better than... well, everything." -- gravedigger, January 21, 2007

by Al Yellon on Feb 8, 2007 11:47 AM CST up reply actions

Thanks..

See my post above.

by Damen Jackson on Feb 8, 2007 11:48 AM CST up reply actions

<sigh>

c'mon guys... I didn't see him trying to predict Al's order. All I saw was him answering some diary questions based on the way he sees the game. In fact, he said, "I'd rank..."

Al, I'm glad you're not defending your Cavarretta ranking as that is getting old. One of the reasons you did this, as you routinely say, is to "generate discussion". People see the game different than you. It's generating discussion!!!

I guess, for me, the "well, there's more than stats" is getting old. We know. And those who are taking issue with the rankings aren't saying "No, there isn't." They are saying, "In this stat and that stat, so and so is significantly better. I don't think the 'intangibles' justify the defiency here."

All I'm asking, do like the very beginning of the Cavaretta piece did (although it doesn't have to be in the piece): say 'he played for 20 years for the Cubs', or 'he was the undoubted leader on the last Cubs World Series team'. For me, that at least gives something to debate. Not just, "Well, there's more to baseball than just stats."

Sorry, I ramble.

worthless...

by tyger1147 on Feb 8, 2007 11:59 AM CST up reply actions

Yes, I'm well aware of that

But to me, any historical list that does not take advantages of stats in trying to figure out who was the best player(s) in team history is too subjective and cannot be taken seriously.

You probably know where I stand on "intangibles" and all that. They're nice, but ultimately I don't put to much stock in them. So Sammy was a prick. I don't care. So Ernie was Mr. Cub. I don't care. All I want to see is how much they helped their teams win.

by VS on Feb 8, 2007 11:53 AM CST up reply actions

It's not...

... completely subjective, either. Absolutely, I took stats into account.

However, no list of this nature can be complete if it doesn't have some measure of the individuals involved, their impacts on the team and on baseball in general, and take them both in and out of the contexts of their time.

If I'd have wanted to do a strictly statistical ranking, I surely could have. But that wasn't the intent, and I made that clear at the beginning.

"[BCB] is much better than... well, everything." -- gravedigger, January 21, 2007

by Al Yellon on Feb 8, 2007 11:56 AM CST up reply actions

Right

I get that, and for the most part I think you've done a great job in balancing things out and I've really enjoyed reading the profiles.

Well, we just have different philosophies, I guess. :- )

by VS on Feb 8, 2007 12:00 PM CST up reply actions

Yes, we do.

I think as you read the top 10 profiles, you'll see that balance.

"[BCB] is much better than... well, everything." -- gravedigger, January 21, 2007

by Al Yellon on Feb 8, 2007 12:04 PM CST up reply actions

Al the stats hater

and SABR member. Makes my eyes cross.

PTBNL!

by gravedigger on Feb 8, 2007 1:10 PM CST up reply actions

See...

... this is what drives me nuts, and the rest of SABR nuts, too.

SABR is NOT all about stats. It is about research. It's right in the acronym (that's what the "R" is for).

I would say MOST SABR members are far more interested in history than statistics.

And I'm not a stats "hater". I'm just not a stats slave.

"[BCB] is much better than... well, everything." -- gravedigger, January 21, 2007

by Al Yellon on Feb 8, 2007 1:15 PM CST up reply actions

Thank you, Al

drives me up a wall too.

TRAMMELL!

by Faith plus 1 on Feb 8, 2007 1:19 PM CST up reply actions

Oh I know

I've read at least one of your SABR articles :)

I just like to tease you when I can because you don't take it well.

PTBNL!

by gravedigger on Feb 8, 2007 1:19 PM CST up reply actions

sigh.

... one of my greatest flaws, I know.

Which article?

"[BCB] is much better than... well, everything." -- gravedigger, January 21, 2007

by Al Yellon on Feb 8, 2007 1:21 PM CST up reply actions

The one about...

...the tam all time records. Also, I think there was another one that you'd posted on your old blog that I read too.

PTBNL!

by gravedigger on Feb 8, 2007 1:25 PM CST up reply actions

The Bottom of the Heap Awards?

I wrote one of those for SABR too. Plus, one about the history of tie games.

"[BCB] is much better than... well, everything." -- gravedigger, January 21, 2007

by Al Yellon on Feb 8, 2007 1:27 PM CST up reply actions

Oh THAT was it!

It was the one about tie games. I actually found that fascinating. So fascinating I forgot I guess.. lol. No - really, I really enjoyed it. I remember the BOTH awards too, those are always fun.

PTBNL!

by gravedigger on Feb 8, 2007 1:49 PM CST up reply actions

I enjoyed doing that article...

... and keep in mind, I did it before the Retrosheet era -- it required letters to teams for boxscores, to newspapers, etc. It would have been a lot easier to do with Retrosheet!

"[BCB] is much better than... well, everything." -- gravedigger, January 21, 2007

by Al Yellon on Feb 8, 2007 1:56 PM CST up reply actions

Do you have

a link to those articles, Al? I'd like to read them.

by On tha come up on Feb 8, 2007 2:44 PM CST up reply actions

Those articles...

... were in SABR publications -- I don't think they are online anywhere. If I can ever find one, I'll post it.

"[BCB] is much better than... well, everything." -- gravedigger, January 21, 2007

by Al Yellon on Feb 8, 2007 4:19 PM CST up reply actions

Listed guess

Ernie Banks
Cap Anson
Three Finger Brown
Ryne Sandberg
Billy Williams
Fergie Jenkins
Sammy Sosa
Gabby Hartnett
Billy Herman
Ron Santo

It takes 2 to lie. One to lie and one to listen! HJS

by Scott G F on Feb 8, 2007 11:48 AM CST reply actions

Your list

I like a lot of your list, but I'm not sure Santo should be so far down - got to remember the intangibles.

"Eighty-five percent of the $#@&$ world's working! The other 15 come out here! A %&$&# playground for the $&&*@!"

by danimal15 on Feb 8, 2007 12:23 PM CST up reply actions

Agree

It's a tough list and since he isn't in the HOF, much to my emotional irritation, I slected him at that spot.

I'd be happy to be wrong, which I fully intend on being.

It takes 2 to lie. One to lie and one to listen! HJS

by Scott G F on Feb 8, 2007 1:36 PM CST up reply actions

Here's mine

Cap Anson
Mordecai Brown
Billy Williams
Ernie Banks
Ron Santo
Ryne Sandberg
Gabby Hartnett
Fergie Jenkins
Billy Herman
Sammy Sosa

AC036198

by gjdow on Feb 8, 2007 12:27 PM CST reply actions

My Guess On The Order

1.Ernie Banks
2.Cap Anson
3.Gabby Hartnett
4.Three Finger Brown
5.Billy Williams
6.Ryne Sandberg
7.Sammy Sosa
8.Ron Santo
9.Fergie Jenkins
10.Billy Herman

Santo Forever!

by BeerCub on Feb 8, 2007 1:10 PM CST reply actions

Chuck Norris does not research stats.

He creates death tolls.

I didn't have the ball, bitch!

by daver on Feb 8, 2007 1:20 PM CST reply actions

my list

Banks
Sandberg
Brown
Hartnett
Anson
Williams
Sosa
Santo
Jenkins

10.Herman
sorry, I just can't put an 1800's guy any higher than 5th. Game was very different then.

by KedzieKid on Feb 8, 2007 1:29 PM CST reply actions

Anson

I'm inclined to agree, at least partly. The other part of me argues that Anson was like the father of this team, and deserves a lot of intangible credit.

"Eighty-five percent of the $#@&$ world's working! The other 15 come out here! A %&$&# playground for the $&&*@!"

by danimal15 on Feb 8, 2007 1:43 PM CST up reply actions

Sandberg

I'm inclined to put Sandberg in the top 5, but I've got to be careful because he's one of just three players on this list I actually saw play (the others are Sosa and Jenkins, but I missed Jenkins in his prime, only seeing him when he returned in 1982/1983). Being objective may be difficult. In Sandberg's favor, he led the Cubs to two postseason appearances, something that can't be said for Jenkins/Banks/Santo/Williams.

"Eighty-five percent of the $#@&$ world's working! The other 15 come out here! A %&$&# playground for the $&&*@!"

by danimal15 on Feb 8, 2007 1:50 PM CST reply actions

My Choices

First of all, I think Al got the top 10 absolutely right. I don't think anyone not in the top ten deserves to be there in place of those ten guys,

Now my order would be:

Williams
Banks
Anson
Brown
Sandberg
Sosa
Jenkins
Hartnett
Santo
Herman

But I think Al's picks will be

Banks
Sandberg
Jenkins
Anson
Williams
Brown
Hartnett
Sosa
Santo
Herman

A little song, a little dance. A little seltzer down your pants

by Josh Timmers on Feb 8, 2007 2:28 PM CST reply actions

Interesting

I think you've done a good job trying to guess Al's picks. I wouldn't be surprised if he ranks Banks and Sandberg one and two, simply because those are the two players, who, besides deserving to be in the top five based on their accomplishments, also represented the most to Cub fans emotionally over the last half century. When it comes to the "intangibles," it's hard to think of any others on the list who had more, although Anson may have meant just as much to 19th century Cub fans as Banks does to fans today.

"Eighty-five percent of the $#@&$ world's working! The other 15 come out here! A %&$&# playground for the $&&*@!"

by danimal15 on Feb 8, 2007 2:43 PM CST up reply actions

Interesting take.

But, as I have said... patience!

You will find out beginning tomorrow.

"[BCB] is much better than... well, everything." -- gravedigger, January 21, 2007

by Al Yellon on Feb 8, 2007 2:45 PM CST up reply actions

Sorry Al

If I stole your thunder by listing the 10 names. It was pretty much process of elimination, and I suppose any of us could have figured it out. Herman was the only one that made me have to think a bit.

"Eighty-five percent of the $#@&$ world's working! The other 15 come out here! A %&$&# playground for the $&&*@!"

by danimal15 on Feb 8, 2007 2:51 PM CST up reply actions

Don't worry about it.

Like I said, I was thinking about posting a diary about this very topic, and as YOU said, the top 10 is pretty obvious as of now.

But the ranking of the top 10 is what will keep you all interested! I must say I have been quite interested to read all the rankings that have been posted here today.

"[BCB] is much better than... well, everything." -- gravedigger, January 21, 2007

by Al Yellon on Feb 8, 2007 2:54 PM CST up reply actions

That

was exactly my thinking--that he'd rank Banks and Sandberg 1 and 2 because of the emotional connection Cub fans have with those two players.

I suppose under that thinking, I should guess Santo higher, but I just couldn't see putting Santo over any of those Hall of Famers. Maybe I could have switched Santo and Hartnett.

Billy Williams and Cap Anson were great examples of players who were just consistently great for a long period of time, but never just dominated like Banks, Sosa or Sandberg each did for a shorter period of time.

It's a philosophical argument with no real answer as to which type of player is more valuable, but I think Al tends to lean towards those players who just dominated for short periods over career players. I mean, he put Rick Wilkins on the list. (Man, Al's never going to hear the end of that one.)

Time for a baseball-related sig line

by Josh Timmers on Feb 8, 2007 8:43 PM CST up reply actions

Emotional connection

If Banks and Sandberg have emotional connection, then what about Santo? I had him lower too, but look at the years within the organization and how he really bleeds cubbie blue. Look at the impact he had on third base. No one ever fully replaced him until Aramis came to us. And emotionally, wouldn't we all shed a tear for Ronnie if he gets in the hall of fame? I'm not saying is is 1-2 or 3, but you can build a case on emotion for Santo. I know a lot of readers don't like him on the radio but I would rather listen to him than the TV. Ron could be higher!

Spendry!!!

by mrcubsfan on Feb 9, 2007 8:55 AM CST up reply actions

Santo and Herman

Interesting to see a lot of people here are picking these two to be 9th and 10th. I agree, actually. Though we all love Ron, his stats aren't up there with stats from guys like Banks, Williams, Sandberg and Sosa. Neither are the stats compiled by Herman, who had pretty much no power. Herman definitely is 10th on my list. His best years were during the mid-1930s, when offense was dominating the game and hitting .300 wasn't as big a feat as it was at other times in baseball history.

"Eighty-five percent of the $#@&$ world's working! The other 15 come out here! A %&$&# playground for the $&&*@!"

by danimal15 on Feb 8, 2007 2:48 PM CST reply actions

My list

While I did have issues with some of Al's 11 through 20,I agree he's got the top 10 right.

To me the tough one is Anson. Not sure how to compare him to the others. In general, I think people are too low on Hartnett. It can be argued that he is the 3rd best catcher in NL history behind Bench and Piazza. No question to me Herman and Santo are 10 and 9.

Banks
Brown
Anson
Hartnett
Williams
Sandberg
Sosa
Jenkins
Santo
Herman

by rlpete on Feb 8, 2007 3:17 PM CST reply actions

Great lists everyone...

but I still don't understand why most people are ranking Sammy in the bottom half of the top 10?

Isn't he the only player in MLB hsitory to have over 60 HR's in three different seasons? Even the Babe, or a pumped-up Barry Bonds never did that!

Not to mention 9 straight seasons of 100+ RBI (2 seasons of over 158 RBI), and the huge attendance generated from city to city (a couple of years the Cubs led the NL in "away" attendance even though they generally had lousy teams when Sosa was playing).

For better of for worse, Sosa was (at least for a few years) as big a draw for the Cubs as "The Babe" was for the Yankees. That is a pretty big intangible.

If you think you've seen it all...just wait!

by CubFanSince1970 on Feb 8, 2007 3:51 PM CST up reply actions

He's 4 on mine

I think you are right. Sosa developed into an elite player, especially considering other statistics not mentioned here. I think Al is going to rank him low though.

PTBNL!

by gravedigger on Feb 8, 2007 4:05 PM CST up reply actions

There you go again...

... with that "statistics" thing!

;) ;) ;)

(You'll just have to wait to find out!)

"[BCB] is much better than... well, everything." -- gravedigger, January 21, 2007

by Al Yellon on Feb 8, 2007 4:07 PM CST up reply actions

lol

That was accidental that time. I didn't mean to imply that you'd ignore the stats. But of course you probably will. ;)

PTBNL!

by gravedigger on Feb 8, 2007 4:08 PM CST up reply actions

LOL

No I won't!

(Cue obligatory Monty Python Argument Sketch quoting)

"[BCB] is much better than... well, everything." -- gravedigger, January 21, 2007

by Al Yellon on Feb 8, 2007 4:19 PM CST up reply actions

Sosa could be higher

I guess I moved him back a little based on the way he left.

My reasoning behind how I ranked them:

#1 - His numbers aren't the best but Banks is Mr. Cub.

#2 - Brown. Possibly the best Cub ever just looking at numbers. Add in the World Series appearances and wins and he's number 2.

#3 - Anson but as I mentioned a tough rank. He was an instrumental figure (good and bad) in the early days of baseball.

#4 - Harnett. Number 3 catcher in NL history plus WS appearances. One of the stalwarts for the last great era of Cub teams.

#5, 6, 7 - Williams, Sandberg and Sosa. It depends on what you value here. Sosa had the numbers and the bad departure, Williams the longevity and consistency, Sandberg was one of the better 2nd baseman in history. I really couldn't argue how anyone ranks these three.

#8 - Jenkins. The second best pitcher in Cubs history. 6 20-win seasons. Did have his 2nd best season as a Ranger though (25-12 in 1974).

#9 , 10 - No question, Santo and Herman. While good they don't have the numbers of the top 8.

by rlpete on Feb 8, 2007 4:45 PM CST up reply actions

If

you really value peak value--then you could argue that Sosa was the number one Cub of all-time.

I wouldn't go that far, but I understand the argument.

Time for a baseball-related sig line

by Josh Timmers on Feb 8, 2007 8:51 PM CST up reply actions

My list

I haven't really thought this through though. I'm sure if I spent some time considering it, the list would be dramatically different.

Banks
Sandberg
Anson
Sosa
Brown
Jenkins
Williams
Santo
Hartnett
Joe Kmak

PTBNL!

by gravedigger on Feb 8, 2007 3:24 PM CST reply actions

How could you forget...

... Mike Maksudian?

"[BCB] is much better than... well, everything." -- gravedigger, January 21, 2007

by Al Yellon on Feb 8, 2007 3:33 PM CST up reply actions

Who?

PTBNL!

by gravedigger on Feb 8, 2007 3:36 PM CST up reply actions

Another 1994 great

If you're going to mention players from that unforgettable 1994 Cubs team (Maksudian), how could you leave out the immortal Blaise Ilsley?

"Eighty-five percent of the $#@&$ world's working! The other 15 come out here! A %&$&# playground for the $&&*@!"

by danimal15 on Feb 8, 2007 3:41 PM CST up reply actions

I am pretty sure that...

...1995 was the season I first started watching baseball. So I missed out on those wonderful 1994 players.

PTBNL!

by gravedigger on Feb 8, 2007 3:42 PM CST up reply actions

Too bad you missed '94...

... with its 11-24 start and losing the first 13 home games, after which Tom Trebelhorn had an impromptu "fan meeting" outside the firehouse on Waveland.

Ah, memories...

"[BCB] is much better than... well, everything." -- gravedigger, January 21, 2007

by Al Yellon on Feb 8, 2007 3:47 PM CST up reply actions

Oh...

You have to tell us more. I was living out of state then, and missed the treat.

by Damen Jackson on Feb 8, 2007 3:56 PM CST up reply actions

Basically...

... Trebelhorn said he'd meet with fans after the game. It turned into a mob scene.

Click here for more Cub managerial follies.

"[BCB] is much better than... well, everything." -- gravedigger, January 21, 2007

by Al Yellon on Feb 8, 2007 4:01 PM CST up reply actions

Wait a minute

I remember Trebelhorn, so I must have started watching them in '94. But I was quite young then so I am sure I wouldn't remember all of the players.

PTBNL!

by gravedigger on Feb 8, 2007 4:04 PM CST up reply actions

Priceless...

n/t

by Damen Jackson on Feb 8, 2007 4:04 PM CST up reply actions

Think

of all the great Cubs you missed. Like Bump Wills!

"Eighty-five percent of the $#@&$ world's working! The other 15 come out here! A %&$&# playground for the $&&*@!"

by danimal15 on Feb 8, 2007 4:15 PM CST up reply actions

And...

... Marvell Wynne!

"[BCB] is much better than... well, everything." -- gravedigger, January 21, 2007

by Al Yellon on Feb 8, 2007 4:20 PM CST up reply actions

Bill Bonham

was one of my favorite Cubs when I was little. I even had his picture on my wall. He deserves a place on the "also-ran" list of top-100, I believe, simply because he's the last Cub pitcher to lose 20 games (he was 11-22 in 1974) And his ERA of 3.86 that year wasn't even all that bad. Imagine how weak the offense had to be for a guy with a 3.86 ERA to lose 22 games.

"Eighty-five percent of the $#@&$ world's working! The other 15 come out here! A %&$&# playground for the $&&*@!"

by danimal15 on Feb 8, 2007 4:18 PM CST reply actions

We will.

.... definitely do the "honorable mention" thing soon.

"[BCB] is much better than... well, everything." -- gravedigger, January 21, 2007

by Al Yellon on Feb 8, 2007 4:21 PM CST up reply actions

My top 10 Cubs

Banks
Sandberg
Anson
Santo
Williams
Sosa
Brown
Jenkins
Hartnett
Herman

by TORCO on Feb 8, 2007 4:39 PM CST reply actions

Mr. Cub

I am not even going to try to rank these guys in any order because I had a long day at work and my brain does not have that much thinking power left for today. But I will offer this interesting tidbit before the Bulls game starts. I know that Ernie Banks will have the title of "Mr. Cub" forever, and that's fine, because Ernie is great. But given that he was way before my time, I have a hard time relating to the way he sees things. I can't relate to the mindset of "It's a beautiful day, life is wonderful, let's play two, let's sing and dance and love each other" and all that sunshine personality bullshit when the Cubs are losing. When the Cubs lose, it kills me. I mean, I live and die and wear my heart on my sleeve with every pitch, every day, every year. Yes, I love the ballpark, I love Chicago, and I love being a Cubs fan. But when the Cubs are losing, I am miserable. I know Ernie loves the Cubs and genuinely wants to win, but his attitude is way too old school, way too "P.K. Wrigley era" for my taste.

I relate much more to a guy who bleeds for the Cubs, and who crys tears of sorrow when they lose, and tears of joy when they win. A guy like Ron Santo. My hero growing up was Ryne Sandberg, and Ryno will always be my favorite Cubs player. But for me, the title of "Mr. Cub" goes to Ron Santo. Santo is the people's Mr. Cub, because he is the guy, I believe, that Cubs fans really relate to. You feel his joy and pain, and you relate to it because it's exactly how you feel about it.

Also, as opposed to Ernie Banks, who lives a charmed life in California (well deserved, by the way), Santo's life is a symbol of what being a Cubs fan is like. A guy who has endured years of adversity, health problems, broken hearts (not getting into the HOF), and just overall terrible things happening to him. Yet every spring, he is back, as passionate and positive as ever, despite all previous setbacks, determined to live out his dream, against all odds, of seeing the Cubs win the World Series. I'm rambling, I know, so I'll stop. But for my money, my Mr. Cub is Ron Santo. He is the ultimate symbol, the ultimate metaphor, for what the Cubs and their fans are all about.

"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Feb 8, 2007 8:37 PM CST reply actions

Great post!

"I don't talk. I just let what I do talk for myself." -Johan Santana

by sparkles721 on Feb 8, 2007 8:41 PM CST up reply actions

Love it

You make a great point about Santo over Banks.

"Eighty-five percent of the $#@&$ world's working! The other 15 come out here! A %&$&# playground for the $&&*@!"

by danimal15 on Feb 8, 2007 9:19 PM CST up reply actions

Banks

Don't get me wrong - I love Ernie. But the guy is almost a cartoon. All that "Let's play two" stuff - it was absolutely sincere. He really felt that way. But he comes off as not being completely real. Santo, on the other hand, is all the things you said. What he doesn't have, that Banks does, is two MVP awards and a plaque in Cooperstown.

"Eighty-five percent of the $#@&$ world's working! The other 15 come out here! A %&$&# playground for the $&&*@!"

by danimal15 on Feb 8, 2007 9:22 PM CST up reply actions

Interesting thread.

Without revealing their positions, I will tell you that I have myself written the Banks and Santo profiles, already finished.

And the issues and points you have raised here are addressed within both profiles.

"[BCB] is much better than... well, everything." -- gravedigger, January 21, 2007

by Al Yellon on Feb 8, 2007 10:11 PM CST up reply actions

I'd Respectfully Suggest.....

...that you apparently don't completely understand Ernie Banks.

Santo Forever!

by BeerCub on Feb 8, 2007 11:59 PM CST up reply actions

my post earlier

and yours are very similar. I like yours better! You really said what I was thinking. The guy lost two legs and travels, climbs Wrigley and shouts in the mike every day. I doubt no one gave more of his life to the cubs.

Spendry!!!

by mrcubsfan on Feb 9, 2007 9:01 AM CST up reply actions

Top 10

Cap Anson Its hard to put his historic numbers in context. Notwithstanding this, I have him as number 1.
Gabby Hartnett At the time he retired one of the top two or three catchers of all time. He's still in the top 5.
Three Finger Brown. A great pitcher that, like Anson, is hard to evaluate because of position.
Fergie Jenkins. A great pitcher.
Ernie Banks. He would have been higher if he had been a SS for more of his career. He was very good at first, but just as Soriano is more valuable as a second baseman, Banks went from being the best player in baseball (as a shortstop) to "merely" one of the top 10 in the league.
Ron Santo An outstanding hitting and fielding third baseman. At the time he retired he was number two or three at his position. If he were in the HOF, he would be higher on the list.
Billy Williams. The Whistler was a great hitter. And a great fielder. But he played in the OF and thus moves down the list.
Ryne Sandberg. A superb second baseman that didn't really hit like a second baseman.
Sammy Sosa. A truly great hitter who didn't care about the other half of his game. If he had played a little bit more defense, he would have moved up the list.
Billy Herman. One of these things is not like the other, one of these things doesn't belong. An easy number 10 in the list.
Ryne Sandberg

by Frustrated Fan on Feb 8, 2007 9:24 PM CST reply actions

Top 10

My Top 10:
Sammy Sosa
Ernie Banks
Billy Williams
Ryne Sandberg
Fergie Jenkins
Three Finger Brown
Ron Santo
Gabby Hartnett
Billy Herman
Cap Anson

by alwaysacub on Feb 9, 2007 8:41 AM CST reply actions

Santo

I first watched the Cubs in 1960, when Santo came up. I liked the fact Ernie was always optimistic, but Ron struck me as the guy who just would not accept losing. He was such an intense competitor, & I patterned myself after him. I hated losing with a smile also, and was always determined to win. The early 60's were tough on Ron, but he never let up. And nobody enjoyed winning more than he did.

by KedzieKid on Feb 9, 2007 9:05 AM CST reply actions

A couple of additonal top 10's to consider

Looking over the top 100 so far, I think Al has done a superb job. But of course there are things to argue about: Cavaretta @ #11 is way too high, and George Gore, @ #48, is way too low, since I think he's the all-time Cub CFer. King Kelly (@ #41), the first player famous enough that people wanted his autograph, was clearly a more significant player than Cavaretta. Just because we don't remember these guys is no reason to discount them.

For example, Gore's OPA+ was 136 (that's 36% above league ave.), Kelly's was 138. Sandberg's, by comparison, was 114, and Ryno's certainly going to be in the top 5. For purposes of this website, that's probably fine.

But Al, if you turn this into a book--which you should--you ought to reconsider some of the 19th century guys--like Gore, Kelly, Williamson, and Clarkson--I think you've got Dahlen about right (the '90s were a high scoring era). The theme might be: what other franchise has its all-timers dead for almost a century? Anyway, look at OPS+ before you commit this to print.

OPS+ doesn't pick up longevity, however, which matters, but which I think the current list overvalues. So the second list below, which is total total runs created, accounts for that. Both peak and longevity matter; you can't make all-time decisions without considering both, and also without factoring in league average, which stats like OPS+ do for you.

Al, I know you're not a stats guy--at least not exclusively. But if you make the rankings based on guys you watched, or heard about, that unfairly penalizes the guys who came before you or your sources. And one thing about this franchise is that we've got an enormously long history. And a history that, at least until World War II, was as good as any other franchise in baseball.

It's the last half-century+ that's been the problem....

OPS+ OPS+ PA

Hack Wilson 155 3719
George Gore 150 3306
King Kelly 148 3072
Cap Anson 140 10112
Sammy Sosa 138 7898
Bill Nicholson 136 5614
Frank Chance 136 5066
Billy Williams 135 9504
Riggs Steph'son130 3964

10.Aramis Ramirez 129 2027

Runs Created RC PA

Cap Anson 1597 10112
Ernie Banks 1560 10395
Billy Williams 1557 9504
Sammy Sosa 1439 7898
Ron Santo 1354 8979
Ryne Sandberg 1312 9276
Mark Grace 1240 8234
Gabby Hartnett 1138 7132
Stan Hack 1136 8506

10.Jimmy Ryan 1121 7542

One other thing, you might not want to penalize the 19th century guys too much for low plate appearances because the seasons were so short then. Anson obviously is an exception, since he could write his name into the lineup and decide not to trade himself.

by bleacher on Feb 10, 2007 2:39 AM CST reply actions

By the way...

the discrepancy between Gore's and King Kelly's numbers in the text above and in the lists below is due to the fact that both were more productive as White Stockings than they were later in their careers. But both helped their new teams to pennants--Gore with the Giants; Kelly with the Beaneaters (Braves), At the same time, the White Stockings/Colts (Cubs) became also rans, winning nothing for 20 years after Spalding/Anson dumped the two of them after the '86 title.

by bleacher on Feb 10, 2007 2:48 AM CST reply actions