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Insecurity

Yelloncard_tiny by Al on in News Comment 217 comments

Recently, there were two well-publicized incidents involving people running onto the field at Wrigley Field -- on June 1 and again on June 25; both men are now facing felony charges.

I mention this because there was a minor incident in the bleachers toward the end of yesterday's game which clearly pointed up the lack of security in the bleachers, and the difficulties that security faces when dealing with unruly fans. I fear that if the Cubs don't do something about this soon, with interest in the Cubs getting higher due to the good play of the club lately, that something worse than what's already happened this year (including the idiocy of throwing trash on the field last week when the Cubs did something good) might happen.

Here's what occurred yesterday: in the 8th inning, a couple of twentysomething men started throwing things into the main stands from the lower left-field corner of the bleachers (about eight rows right in front of me). There had been NO Cubs security personnel stationed in my aisle during the entire game.

Fortunately, other fans in the area quickly pointed out the offender, and security did immediately come down to that row to attempt to remove him (and a couple of his friends; four or five young men were eventually escorted out).

I say "attempt" because it took no fewer than FOUR security people, PLUS a security supervisor, to talk this man into leaving. This problem, I believe, has been caused by the fact that over a several-year period, security has taken a fairly light hand with disorderly people. They'll take them downstairs, talk to them, and then let them back to their seats. The message that's been given by this, unfortunately, is, "Hey, I can do anything I want, and they won't kick me out!"

Contrast this with the procedures in the bleachers at Yankee Stadium, where I have sat several times over the last few years; I enjoy going there when I'm in New York on business. The Yankees have both plainclothes and uniformed NYC police officers very visibly stationed in the bleachers. They enforce good behavior firmly but politely; if you violate a rule, they'll gently say, "Come with me." You are then escorted out -- no questions, no debating, no whining. This, plus the fact that no alcohol is sold in the Yankee Stadium bleachers, makes sitting there a pleasant experience -- because you know you're not going to be hassled by idiots. That doesn't stop the Yankee Stadium bleachers from being populated by knowledgeable and passionate fans, either.

Now, I understand there's probably no way the Cubs will ever stop selling beer and other alcohol in the bleachers -- there's simply too much profit to be made -- nor am I arguing that they should do so.

But there ought to be a much more visible security presence there; too many times this year I have seen only one security guard in our section, or, as yesterday, none at all. It wouldn't hurt to have some Chicago police officers there, either. They don't even have to do anything -- their mere presence might deter bad behavior.

There was another minor incident -- I hesitate to even call it an "incident", because no harm was done -- on Friday, which shows how inconsistently rules are enforced. A TV crew from 3TV in Phoenix came into the bleachers, wanting to tape an introduction to their pregame show. They were fully credentialed by the media relations department (even mentioning media relations director Peter Chase's name) and said they'd only be there for five minutes. Security threw them out, apparently because "they weren't properly informed." Now what purpose did that serve? This was right after the gates opened and the bleachers were 95% empty. I'd like to think that Cubs security has more important things to worry about than a credentialed TV crew shooting video in the bleachers for five minutes.

In any case, yesterday's incident had at least one part to it that showed that maybe, just maybe, security and many bleacher fans are getting things right. Security finally did get the trash-throwing idiots to walk out with them (and ejected them) -- and people in our section, unlike past years when they'd applaud morons like this, were jeering them, telling them they were setting a bad example for kids -- and maybe, just maybe, this will make for a better experience in the bleachers for everyone.

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And by contrast
The security at Soldier Field (after a couple of visits by me in the last 3 years) is very strong.

Maybe season ticket holders can either dispute or agree with that -- but it seems that cameras are everywhere and there are security personnel (not ushers) everywhere.

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jul 23, 2007 1:49 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I worked
for the Bears PR dept. and I can attest to this fact: there is security everywhere in that stadium. There are no visible uniformed police in the stand, but most of the guys who work for Monterrey (the security contractor) are off-duty cops. There is a pretty strong police presence outside the stadium on gamedays, and there are plainclothes policemen in the stadium, as well. Yet, it does nothing to interfere with the fans' experience. I heard a lot of complaints during my time there, but never one single comlaint about security interfering with someone's fan experience, excepting from some soused idiot getting tossed for fighting or some such nonsense. For the most part, the Vikings game being the possible exception, the fans, while loud and boistrous, keep it a pretty good environment, as well. However, if anyhting gets out of hand, it is handled quickly and cleanly by the Monterrey guys and the CPD cars waiting outside the gates.
"One thing you learn as a Cubs fan: When you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth." - Joe Garagiola

by gary varsho on Jul 23, 2007 2:41 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I could not agree more...
I have always found it odd that there has been little upgrade in security over the years. There are at least 6-8 off duty CPD in the bleachers at everygame, (in grey polo shirts this year) but they rarely come up from below until an incident has already occured.

The Cubs security guys are great, there are just way too few of them..

Let me get back to you, will ya, Charlie? I got a guy on the other line asking about some white walls.

by JB 23 on Jul 23, 2007 1:55 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fight behind the Cubs Dugout Yesterday...
Did anybody else see the pretty large fight going on in the walkway behind the Cubs dugout in the 8th inning yesterday? A guy had his shirt ripped off and there were more than a few people falling into the field box seats. It took a fair amount of time before the fight was ended by security and the offenders were pushed down the stairs...

Don't know why, but it seemed that there were more than the usual amount of stumbling drunk idiots at the game yesterday. Maybe it was the nice weather...who knows. I guess now that Wrigley has become the #1 place to be in Chicago again, the idiots have come out of the woodwork...

Walking to the car, we passed a few people who were having a tough time walking...

by bergs55 on Jul 23, 2007 2:11 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

sundays game
there was some sort of major fight that traveled for over five sections from behind home plate to just behind the cubs dugout on the third base line in the bot of 7 or sometime in the 8th inning...it looked bad...two or three guys and about 6 security.  it looked like a cartoon fight where all you see is a ball of dirt and then once in a while an arm or leg pops out a head sticks up and then all disapear back into the mess....

i was sitting on the fist base side in the upper deck so i had a real bad perspective...but it also supports your claim here

"fly ball...and that wouldn't be a home run in a phone booth" ~ H.Caray

by sniddlycubbie on Jul 23, 2007 2:12 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fight
I saw the fight when it was behind the Cubs dugout.  By the time I noticed, it had already started.  It seemed to take security awhile to get it calmed down.  Longer than it seemed like it should have, but then again, I wasn't close enough to see it closely.
"Don't think; it can only hurt the ball club."

by Jesse Guam on Jul 23, 2007 4:31 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ahh that's what it was.
I was over in left field, near Al and the incident he was describing and I couldn't really tell what was going on behind the dugout.  I saw a mass of people moving, but not much more.  

As far as this incident in left field, I was actually surprised they weren't told to sit down much earlier in the game.  The whole final third of the game the shirtless wonders, as I called them at the game, were standing up yelling and screaming.  They were upset none of us Cubs fans were not on our feet to root on the Cubs.  You can't demand this crowd action, it just happens when the time is right.  

If it wasn't for the sharp eyed security guy in the main stands where they threw stuff to, these guys wouldn't have gotten busted.  He spotted and radioed right away for them.

by McCarron on Jul 24, 2007 8:24 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Probably will take more
How many years has it been (between 7-9) since they stopped having beer vendors walk around the bleachers selling beer and cut the limit to 2 per at the stands? Think it was '96 or '98. Why? Cause all the fights in the stands. It'll take a few more incidents before they step things up. The deeper set of steps due to the expansion makes crowd control harder. They do need more security.

Off-duty cops (my cousin being one of them) were always in orange windbreakers, very many of them by the way, were in the aisles and stair cases at Chicago Stadium in the late 70's til it closed in 1994. But then again, the Stadium was a bit more rough than anything I've ever seen at Wrigley.

da-da-daddio

by blackhawk24 on Jul 23, 2007 2:24 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

trash
It'll take a few more incidents before they step things up.

I agree. I think it'll have to be 6 or 7 trash throwing episodes. What are we at this season? 3?

by jacob on Jul 23, 2007 3:03 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not good.
"We'll fix the planes when 2 or 3 of them crash."

Call it hyperbole if you want, but the bleachers are a disaster waiting to happen. I'm a wuss- I've refused to venture out there since '96.

Tinker to Evers to Chance.

by Matt Allison on Jul 24, 2007 5:04 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks for this, Al.
I have a partial season ticket plan in section 425, it's about 25 games a year, on Wednesday, some Thursday, and all Friday day games. It's pretty nice, and the seats are just great, and it's normally a great experience at the game. This past Thursday, when the Giants were in town, was unfortunately the exception to the rule that it's normally a great time. There were four 50 year old women sitting behind my family, and they were completely trashed. They were literally screaming to each other about sleeping with each other's husbands, and all kinds of other sexual exploits that I don't think anyone would ever want to hear coming out of anyone's mouth, let alone a middle aged woman. It was like an episode of Sex and the City, only worse. The worst part, though, was that there was a security guard just standing near the top of the section, listening to everything they said, and taking no action. Fans all around me were looking back, and trying to get the women to shut up, but they just wouldn't. These are the kind of people that just completely ruin a game, and I wish security would've been more vigilant in  keeping these types to at least control themselves.

/end rant.

In other news, Go Reds!!

Eamus Catuli!

by sackings108 on Jul 23, 2007 2:33 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

more security
this has been talked about a bit recently. The Cubs need to have a stronger secuirty presence not just in the bleachers but in the stadium in general. It's pretty bad at times there.
AC 00 00 00 - BELIEVE

by mike on Jul 23, 2007 2:57 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bleacher Behavior
It seemed to me that Bleacher security would get on people for the dumbest things.  I would hear security reprimanding people for language in a nanosecond, then two rows down...it would take them 5 minutes to get involved in a fight.

I don't know.  They just don't seem that consistent to me.

"You're fired." - Dallas Green to Billy Connors while Billy was staying in the hospital.

by jdoolsiu on Jul 23, 2007 2:59 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's the biggest part of the problem...
... as I said, inconsistency. Why throw a credentialed TV crew out?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 23, 2007 3:02 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No beer in Yankees bleachers?
Doesn't sound pleasant to me. I'm all for more security, and I hate drunken idiots as much as anybody, but I consider having 2 or 3 overpriced beers part of the overall "baseball experience". But I never sit in the bleachers anyway, so I guess I would be unaffected.

by jamie on Jul 23, 2007 3:00 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

not to be a jerk...
but that seems to be a bit obtuse.

That's a part of the 'baseball experience'?
If you can't enjoy a game w/o a beer, you may need to talk to somebody.

"You're fired." - Dallas Green to Billy Connors while Billy was staying in the hospital.

by jdoolsiu on Jul 23, 2007 3:22 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just because you enjoy having a beer
Doesn't mean you have a problem.  I agree, with the OP, watching sports in general and tossing down a few go hand in hand.  Getting belligerently drunk is a different story, nothing wrong with a few drinks though.

by GoCubbies34 on Jul 23, 2007 3:30 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just lettin' it roll off my back...
...the behaviour, not spilled beer. There's always someone doing something that is questionable by others. It's a sign of the times. I'm more frustrated with the rapid decline of baseball IQ in the stands. Last year I actually had a guy ask me why I kept saying 4-6-3, 4-6-3, 4-6-3.

The worst thing I saw was a so-called ballhawk sitting in LF Apr 2005 game against the Reds. He leaned, pushed and finally fell on several people going after a ball thrown up in the stands between innings. Worst thing about that he couldn't blame any alcohol; he wasn't drinking, just plain stupid.

da-da-daddio

by blackhawk24 on Jul 23, 2007 3:38 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That is the most
ridiculous thing Ive ever heard.  Having a beer at the ball park is part of the experience for many people, me included.  Its the ones who act like crap who give people who like to have 2 or 3 beers at the ballpark a bad name, we dont all act like that.  If you think someone who likes to have a beer at the ballpark has a problem, either you are a kid who doesn't understand yet, or a really naive person.

by jshipp on Jul 23, 2007 3:35 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed!
I too enjoy my beer, at the game or at home. It's taking the liberty to act stupid is what is ridiculous. One of my biggest pet peaves is fireworks; love 'em, think their great but look how some areas crack down. Why? 'cause of the idiots that abuse them. Never been hurt by them, nor will I ever, 'cause I know how to act. Same thing with drinking at the games.

Face it folks and we all know this: Wrigley is one of America's largest outdoor bars. There is a significant percentage of people who go there to stand around (not watching the game), blab and drink. I wish I had just the ticket revenue of those who do this.

da-da-daddio

by blackhawk24 on Jul 23, 2007 3:42 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The problem is...
... that people get overserved, and because there is really no one checking on this, no one stops anyone who might have had too many -- or even too many before they even entered the ballpark, which I have seen far too many times.

Maybe they should issue wristbands which would entitle everyone over 21 who wants to drink, a limit of three or four drinks per game. That'd allow anyone who enjoys drinking in moderation to do so, but prevent people from getting overserved.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 23, 2007 4:18 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like your idea...
...but as you said, Al, the problem is profit.  It seems to me that the folks that cause the problems will, even with limits on beer, either sneak their own into games or still create the problems.  

In my below post, I was not attempting to justify these actions, rather note that running on the field is a sort of tradition in all sports, all venues, all locations.  Agreed, however, that this would probably greatly reduce unexplainable actions, such as last week's trash-throwing activity.  

Dan

PS - I am glad that most media outlets immediately stop broadcasting during these clowns' actions and, for the most part, completely ignore and refuse to discuss them.  Good job.

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Jul 23, 2007 4:27 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Running on the field...
... may be a "tradition". But it is a "tradition" that has to end. Now. Enough. Before someone gets seriously hurt or killed.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 23, 2007 4:51 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed...
...from an organizational stand point, the team has no idea what a person's motives may be: a few seconds in the spotlight, a bet, or to injure a superstar player.  

Dan

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Jul 23, 2007 4:57 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Those beers
cost them 20 cents. They sell them for 6 bucks. The bleachers are, unfortunately, a cash-cow bar.
Tinker to Evers to Chance.

by Matt Allison on Jul 24, 2007 5:13 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's not ridiculous
Seriously.
I'm just saying if you can't enjoy it WITHOUT the beer, THEN that's a problem.

Nothing wrong with a couple old styles at the ole ballyard!

"You're fired." - Dallas Green to Billy Connors while Billy was staying in the hospital.

by jdoolsiu on Jul 23, 2007 9:29 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Police
Wouldn't it make sense for the cubs to allow a certain number of police into the games for free if they act as "security".  Imagine what the presence of a few plainclothed officers would do if they were scattered about the feild.
I'm sure some of Chicago's finist would be willing to do that for a free cubs game.  It also would help security and PR for the club.
When in doubt punch Barret in the face

by jds2 on Jul 23, 2007 3:04 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

completely agree
taking a proactive stance would definitely be the way to go here.  why wait for another embarassing incident when you can take care of it before it happens?  as your average 20-something who enjoys attending a cubs game whenever I can scrounge up enough cash, i find myself lately choosing to cheer from the friendly confines of my couch.  

when i do attend, it seems that no matter where i end up sitting, i always find myself asking 'why did i get seats by this d-bag?'  after i while, i realized that wrigley is always inhabited by a small but vocal contingent of d-bags on a daily basis (as with every stadium, no doubt).  

while i completely understand this represents a very small proportion of those in attendance, it is enough to keep me away a majority of the time.  i'm all down for having some beers, having a great time, and rooting on the cubs, but come on.  i realize that a forum like this is preaching to the choir, but perhaps if we as fans take a stand as well... we can help curb some of this inexcusable behavior.

by pc45 on Jul 23, 2007 3:27 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yankee Fan injured
This discussion reminded me of this recent article from Yankee Stadium....

NEW YORK -- Paul Robinson headed home Monday, about a week after suffering a broken neck at Yankee Stadium when another fan, possibly inebriated, fell on him.
"Obviously this wasn't the way we were planning to leave New York when we arrived 10 days ago," said Robinson, standing during a news conference outside Montefiore Medical Center in the Bronx. "Even though we had an awful eighth inning ... I feel fortunate to be leaving New York on my feet and I am determined to recover fully."

Robinson, 53, of Kirkland, Wash., was in the steep upper deck of the stadium with his wife and son on July 8 when an unidentified man above him fell down several rows of seats. The man landed on Robinson and broke his vertebra. The family believes the man was drunk.

John Houten, director of spinal neurosurgery at the hospital, said Robinson's neck broke at the point where his spine supports his head.

"It is one of the most dangerous places in the spine to have a fracture," Houton said. "Mr. Robinson was very, very fortunate."

Robinson underwent surgery to have a screw placed in his neck. Houten said he'd probably have to wear a brace for one to three months.

The baseball-loving family had planned to go next to the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown and then head to Boston for a game at Fenway Park. Instead, Robinson, his wife Kathy and 13-year-old son John got into a car Monday to take a flight home, paid by the Yankees.

"They've been very helpful and we appreciate that," Kathy Robinson said. The Yankees did not immediately return a call seeking comment.

"We hope to continue our East Coast baseball vacation in the future, under a little more normal circumstances," Robinson said.

A similar event took place in April during a Mets game at Shea Stadium. A 58-year-old woman suffered a broken back when a very large, drunken man crashed into her during a fall. The woman, who cracked several vertebrae, is now suing the team and its beer vendor.

by MolineCubsFan on Jul 23, 2007 3:28 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I have often
wonder how many of these bad seeds are buying their tickets. It seems that corporations or companies buy season tickets for customer's or employee's. Often tickets are offered to some that are not in the least bit interested in the Cubs, but more so for a day out to party. Of course not all are like this, but you have to wonder.

What I find troubling as well is the language. This goes hand in hand with the consumption of booze. I at times have politely asked some to please refrain from this noise pollution. Normally I will be with my son of 16, but there are ladies and other young ones that should not be subjected to that language. There I got it off my chest.

"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"

by wild bill on Jul 23, 2007 3:30 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't see anyone discussing the two men...
...charged with felonies.  I am some what flabbergasted at the level at which our favorite organization has decided to take against these young men; namely, a misdemeanor vs. a felony.  Bond for $20,000 and $75,000?  Is this truly worth severely messing up someone's life?  

Over my years as a fan and ticket holder, I have seen nearly a dozen fans run onto the field as tradition, a bet, or an idiotic decision.  These individuals are most commonly young males, and were highly intoxicated during the game.  

As an senior undergraduate at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, I witnessed during a 80,000+ packed stadium a young male hop the fence, remove a wig and trenchcoat, and trot around the football field as the majority of the stadium cheered him on.  He was arrested, paid a $1,000-something fine (UW students supported a fund for this), and not only had one article in the Wisconsin State Journal, a year later was re-interviewed on his "success" (re: engagement, job) post-incident.  

It is one thing to slap a misdemeanor fine on someone and entirely another to be required to check "felon" on an application for the rest of a life.  I hope the Chicago Cubs organization realizes this and drops these charges down a bit.

Dan

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Jul 23, 2007 3:57 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I saw throw the book at them
If people know they face serious charges, they wont do it right? People have their lives ruined over far less serious charges.
One of Us!One Of Us!

by HerrProf on Jul 23, 2007 4:48 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah, I understand the reasoning behind it...
...it creates a precedence, probably preventing "some" persons from doing this.  I think the point I am trying to make is that although it may prove necessary to set this baseline, it is unfortunate these two suffer for setting it.  I believe that a larger security force would do much more for the greater good of eliminating this action than charging two young men with felonies, however.  

Dan

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Jul 23, 2007 4:54 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed...
... on the security force. However, sometimes someone has to be "the example". These two, apparently, are going to be it.

This is very similar to the case in Lake County where the couple was just convicted for serving alcohol to minors in their house and then lying about it. They're going to jail as convicted felons.

Is that tough for them? Sure it is. But maybe, just maybe, knowing that this could happen will deter others from doing it, and some lives could be saved.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 23, 2007 4:59 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There are
laws all over the place. Some stronger than others. Knowing there is a law that will get you arrested if you drink and drive does that stop some from driving? Maybe a few, but still plenty are doing it.

Even if you make an example of these two, sure enough some other person will repeat this action. In Virgina they have passed a law raising the cost of the ticket to something like $1000.00. Hard line yes. Will it stop speeders? Some yes some no.

I agree with dppollitt. Much to harsh of charges for this.  

"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"

by wild bill on Jul 23, 2007 5:07 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is Society
simply to say that because our strong pursuit of charges against those whose behavior has been deemed criminal by the laws and statutes of their particular jurisdiction haven't been (apparently) effective that we just cancel them out or choose not to enforce them?  Such a line of thought is illogical and is counter to what rule of law stands for.  A civilized society simply must not tolerate such behavior.  To ignore it is to condone it.  What then is next?
And so it goes.

by Luigi on Jul 23, 2007 7:25 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm Sorry
that you feel that way.  Perhaps once, long ago, one could laugh off the occassional goofball that would run onto the field or start a fight.  I myself used to throw hot pennies on the ice at the stadium during Black Hawk games.  I didn't realize how stupid I was behaving.

The fact is that today, these same goofballs are different.  Their attitudes are different.  We live in an era of wacko-worship that manifests itself in incidents running the gamut from a drunk college kid's fifteen seconds of fame to Columbine.

We are at war with terrorists.  Players, umpires and coaches have been physically attacked.  You can't pick up the paper without another senseless killing being in the headlines.  What has this to do with improper behavior at public venues such as a ball game?  Everything.

These goofballs need to learn to take personal responsibility for their actions.  Is a felony rap a little harsh?  Perhaps, but can you guarantee that one of these nincompoops won't cause someone permanent harm?  Can you guarantee a riot won't ensue?  I was at the Superdome for the Monday night game against the Jets a few years ago.  The one where Kyle Turley ripped of a NY helmet and ran across the field holding it up like a severed head in battle.  A few innocent drunks threw some trash on the field and shortly thereafter a full blown riot ensued.  Don't the fans bear responsibility for their actions?  Are we to say something akin to "oh, you mustn't do that again because it's bad" and then slap their wrists?  I think not.

To quote that great philosopher Tony Berretta, "When you ride the bus, you gotta pay the fare."  It isn't the act, it is the potential act that warrants the felony charge.  We need more of it and then, just maybe, we'll see a decrease in uncivilized behavior of the type Al cited.  At least, these buttheads will at least feel the rath of society.

And so it goes.

by Luigi on Jul 23, 2007 7:22 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So Luigi I
applaud you're adherence to having a society that holds people to task that commit crimes against it. I am sure no one is saying that no punishment should be given for this (running on the field) or for any other law that is broken.
You admit to throwing hot pennies on the ice. It also appears that you matured and realized that was really stupid. Suppose one of your pennies somehow disrupted the game. Or worse yet it hurts someone. What kind of punishment would be  warranted for that action? Point is smart normal people do stupid things at some point in their life, usually at a younger age.

Yes punishment is warranted for throwing a penny on the ice and stopping the game. But such a severe punishment that could alter a person's life in a long term negative way is a little harsh.

No I am not saying that throwing a penny on the ice is as stupid as running on a pro or college field during a game. But only trying to illustrate that I don't believe you can paint each person and each infraction of a law with a broad brush.

"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"

by wild bill on Jul 23, 2007 8:21 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Are You Saying
that despite the rapid, downward spiral of public behavior these days one should just blow off acts that could endanger the physical welfare of both spectators, participants and security personnel?

I'm not saying we should give the chair to someone who uses foul language in public.  What I am saying is that irresponsible behavior at sporting events, et.al., must carry consequences commensurate to the act as well as the potential ramifications of the act itelf.  As such, a felony charge may well be in order.  The charge is one thing, the conviction is quite another.  Regardless, the "broad brush" is society's only tool with which to combat an ever growing lack of appropriate public behavior.

And so it goes.

by Luigi on Jul 23, 2007 8:56 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pennies?
Did you know that Darryl Sutter separated a shoulder crashing into the boards 'cuz he caught an edge on something on the ice. Later that evening - when the Blackhawks playoff chances were diminished - the team announced it was from a coin on the ice?

The next season kids who were sitting on someone's seats in my section who I knew were thrown out of the Stadium from throwing LemonHeads on the ice. What makes people do stuff like that?

You have to wonder one day if Soriano or Pie gets hit with a thrown bottle that was snuck in the ballpark. Didn't that happen with Milton Bradley a couple seasons ago?

da-da-daddio

by blackhawk24 on Jul 23, 2007 8:49 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Exactly My Point
I was about fiteen (about 1962-when the Hawks were really good!) when I did the penny thing.  Fortunately nobody was hurt.  Had I been caught in the act, I would have deserved whatever punishment was meted out.  

I only use the penny example as a bridge to today.  In 1962 it is quite likely the fans themselves would have not stood for my actions had they seen me.  In 2007 I'm not so sure.

What makes people do such things?  I think being fifteen is reason enough, not that it excuses anything.  The folks that Al is speaking of, however, are obviously not fifteen.  What is their excuse?  Don't blame the beer.  Nobody is forcing it down their throats.

And so it goes.

by Luigi on Jul 23, 2007 9:04 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

blackhawk!
Wasn't this during the 82 playoff run?
Wasn't that a riot night at the stadium?!
My uncle told me a story about that night.
"You're fired." - Dallas Green to Billy Connors while Billy was staying in the hospital.

by jdoolsiu on Jul 23, 2007 9:32 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Penny injury
I'm fairly sure it was in the 85-86 season. In 1982 they were stopped by "King" Richard Brodeur and the Canucks in the semi-finals. There's been quite a few fights in the stands but no riot since the 70's.
da-da-daddio

by blackhawk24 on Jul 23, 2007 9:43 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

are you serious?
I'm sorry, but this is exactly the attitude that perpetuates such moronic behavior, and furthers my belief that felony charges are completely warranted.  

"Success"??? What part of running onto a playing field that one has no business being on in first place constitutes a success?  Wrigley Field is not some Big Ten University (although the neighborhood and and atmosphere seem to dictate otherwise).  Getting drunk and having no self control may be fine at some frat house, but keep it out of the ballpark.

These guys made the brainless decision to run on the field, so  they deserve whatever comes their way.

by pc45 on Jul 23, 2007 6:11 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sign o' the Times
I think one major part of the problem that may not be as big of a problem in other parks is the "tourist frat boy/girl" crowds that come to Wrigley not necessarily due to their love of the Cubs but because they think it is the cool thing to do....I have no problem whatsoever with slapping those two idiots with felony charges.....you just should know that you cannot jump on the field and if you do you will be slapped down hard (we aren't the White Sox for god's sakes).....this kind of "tourist fan" phenomena helps raise cash for the Cubs organization but it sure makes times at the ballpark a little less fun when you have to put up with drunken little boys with no interest in the game itself.

by razzpunk on Jul 23, 2007 4:48 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree
that a majority of the crowd at Wrigley are there to party, nothing else. Anyone that has attended a spring training game knows it's a party times two out there, and that's fine. But, at the same time, the walk around beer vendors are paid not by the club but by each beer they sell. When was the last time, or FIRST time you ever saw a vendor cut someone off because he was overserved? I am not laying the blame with the vendors, per se, but as a responsible adult, you need to know when to say when. The guy selling you that icy beverage at a $5 profit surely isn't the one to remind you to slow down. Many Cubs fans are on edge with every pitch and unfortunately, that intensity sometimes goes astray when things go badly during a game. Security should be beefed up and people need to be made examples of to show the other potential trash throwers that it will not be tolerated and strong penalties enforced.
"When you're eight games behind, it's like eight miles; when you're eight games in front, it's like eight inches."- Ron Santo

by BigJohnAZ on Jul 23, 2007 5:08 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And now for something completely different
It sounds like Michael Vick is going to be suspended or released from the Falcons tonight.

All I have to say is as red blooded, meat eating American: that kicks ass.

Vick is a dirt bag that should be thrown in jail.  Losing his job should be the least of his problems.

by Joe on Jul 23, 2007 6:11 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I didn't think it was possible...
to be a bigger jackass than his brother, but he proved me wrong. Touche, Mike Vick, Touche.
MARQUIS! YES, MARQUIS!

by thekansasian on Jul 23, 2007 7:08 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wrigley's Bleachers are different than everyone...

Else's.

The bleachers have been a problem pretty much since 1985, the year you could start buying Bleacher tickets in advanced. Die hards who would spend the morning waiting in linetalking baseball were replaced by hipster frat boy doofus patrols that have been drinking at Cubbie Bear,Murphy's, Sluggers,etc.

 Of course tickets have also gone from $6 to the most expensive ticket in the house and it's not like it's called the "Bud Light Upper Deck" ( well,not yet anyway....) So it's not like things are going to change interms of alcahol. Which is too bad because it'seasy too see the average person in the bleachers over serves.

  Too me it should be a privelage to sit there, and every time these clowns fight or litter the field with garbage, I'd close the bleachers the next day. Of course, it's easy for me to say that,it's not my money.

 You can triple security, but if everyone's reaction to some asswipe throwing garbage on the field is to cheer himand join him, ratherthan pointing the jerk out to security,does it really matter?

"I can't be held responsible for what I personally tell my goons to do...."- C. Montgomery Burns

by yahoodi on Jul 23, 2007 6:21 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Scott Olsen
...is instructive here.

Anyone gets out of line, use the taser.

¡BLANCO!

by 08Cubs on Jul 23, 2007 6:33 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

David Ross...
puts the Reds up 1-0
Well, sometimes nothin is a real cool hand.

by wicubfan on Jul 23, 2007 6:44 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

1-0 Reds
Top of the 4th coming up. They are talking about how Reds are playing well lately and that MIL and CHC are not going to mow them down.

by cubsnlinux on Jul 23, 2007 6:50 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ryan Braun
ties it at 1 with a solo home run
Well, sometimes nothin is a real cool hand.

by wicubfan on Jul 23, 2007 6:51 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hehe..
guess I'm late
Well, sometimes nothin is a real cool hand.

by wicubfan on Jul 23, 2007 6:52 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

1-1 @ CIN
Ryan Braun with his 16th HR of the season tied the game. Braun hit a hanging slider to deep left

by cubsnlinux on Jul 23, 2007 6:53 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I've just been reading...
for some months now, but I feel obligated to comment here.  It is very frustrating to me to see the conservative bent of this discussion.  I cannot imagine how any kind of language could possibly harm another individual, regardless of their age.  I just don't see it.  Perhaps someone could explain it to me, but it just seems like the apotheosis of Puritanism.

A baseball game should not be a high-society event for only the wealthy and religious.  Think about its origins as respite for the working class, with cigars, drinking and cussing nearly inherent to being a committed fan.  Of course there have always been kids.  I think that's the age most of us all fell in love with this game.  So a kid hears a dirty word.  Is someone gonna have to drive him to the hospital now?  To reiterate, I fundamentally fail to understand how mere language is going to harm someone.

As for the idea of limiting the amount one can drink to some number - this is something I cannot defend.  I'm not saying over serving is a good idea, but that is a subjective analysis.  One person may be over served at 2 whereas another is over served at 10.  I don't think that people should be forced to adhere their consumption to some arbitrary number, which will just cause the binge drinking phenomenon to exacerbate before the game.  So it's not unreasonable to request more attentiveness on the behalf of servers.  

And the idea of no beer in the bleachers at all, as Al claims Yankee stadium has, just turns my stomach.  Are we such animals that we need to be treated like inmates?

Do we really need more security?  Are we as a group really unable to rationally solve our own problems without calling mommy or the warden?  Sure, there are occasions when someone has gone beyond the point of reason and needs to be dealt with, but do we really feel that this is happening enough to warrant more suppressive measures?  I for one do not think so, and since I do not see these sentiments reflected elsewhere, have now felt compelled to share them.

In closing, I beseech the group of thoughtful fans which take the time to post to this site, (as opposed to the tourist element who just show up at games, and clearly represent most of the transgressors we are talking about) not to lobby for more Draconian measures.  Please don't turn my beloved Wrigley Field into a church or a penitentiary.    

Thank you for listening to my opinion.

"There's no success like failure, and failure's no success at all." -B. Dylan

by Wood20K on Jul 23, 2007 6:53 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Aha..your arguments tread along
the lines of often debated - liberal vs conservative approach.

The problem is in a democracy while people clamor for their rights they forget their responsibilities. People often forget that rights follow responsibilities.

One can get drunk all they want and behave how they wish in their private space. But once they are in a ball park or as a matter of fact in any public place their so called over stretched freedom might be trespassing the freedom of others. It is written that in ancient times we all used to roam around naked, so do you think this behavior should be acceptable now. Smoking was acceptable in an airplane and we all know that it is now dis-allowed for a good reason.

People from different backgrounds belonging to different cultures and age groups come to watch a baseball game. It would be completely unacceptable for someone to disrespect them or to deny them the complete pleasure of watching the ball game by getting drunk and engaging in shouting, shoving and calling them names. From times immemorial we have proved once and again that we are totally incapable of self control and thus came all the laws and all the law enforcement agencies. For the same reason as Al pointed out we need adequate security at a ball game. I can go on and on about this but will stop for now and turn my head to the MIL-CIN game.

by cubsnlinux on Jul 23, 2007 7:20 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not sure...
What your point is.  I'm not arguing that everyone should run around drunk.  I'm just saying that people who can drink and not cause a problem for other people should be allowed to do so in a public environment.  Your examples don't hold very well.  Other than the practicalities of climate, there is no real reason to wear clothes.  I choose to do so, and imagine that most people agree, but I could not see how a naked individual behaving in an otherwise appropriate and sterile manner should offend anyone.  As for the smoking on the plane, that's an argument that no one could rationally defend.  I was waxing nostalgic about the old use of cigars at ballgames, but am in no way condoning that this should be allowed.  Although as a non-smoker, I still wouldn't mind, but the way in which it infringes on another's right is pretty clear, and thus justifiably outlawed.

However, shouting or name calling is constitutionally protected speech, and really should not bother anyone, as long as it is not right in their ear.  That is a problem of volume, not content.

In no way in my post did I defend shoving.  That is not acceptable behavior.  I'm just saying that when we have a disagreement, we could choose to settle it with respect and dignity, rather than instantly insisting on a security force which is empowered to settle things in a manner more extreme than a private citizen.  

I was at a game where I had the good fortune to sit one seat behind the Cubs bullpen.  A man nearby was offering some coarse criticism of Eyre's recent play.  Dempster called security over and was about to have this man ejected when I intervened.  After a lengthy conversation with Dempster (who is a very decent and articulate man that I am very proud to have on my team) we were able to determine that while it is not the best way to go about motivating the team that you love, coarse criticism is a fan's right.  Ryan agreed to let the man continue to watch the ballgame.  The lengthy details of this story are much better than the outline, which I may perhaps post at some other time, maybe in a diary.  My point is that can not we draw the line between reasonable and unreasonable behavior amongst ourselves without having to ask for additional restrictions on our already over-restricted lives from the beginning of the game?

Thank you for your interest in my comments.

"There's no success like failure, and failure's no success at all." -B. Dylan

by Wood20K on Jul 23, 2007 8:31 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It comes down to this..
"I'm just saying that people who can drink and not cause a problem for other people should be allowed to do so in a public environment."

How does the management quantify the above? Are they going to take a sobriety test before selling a can of beer? How do you know until someone misbehaves that they are going to misbehave?

by cubsnlinux on Jul 23, 2007 8:40 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thus...
the beauty of innocent until proven guilty.  It is against the law to serve someone who is visibly intoxicated.  There are several signs that I will not bother to enumerate here which indicate when a person is visibly intoxicated.  People are going to behave like bozos, whether or not there is alcohol involved.  I think there is a burden on the administration of any facility to limit potential problems while at the same time respecting liberties.  Therefore I recommend a subjective test rather than an objective one.
"There's no success like failure, and failure's no success at all." -B. Dylan

by Wood20K on Jul 23, 2007 8:52 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why do you think
we even need a legal age limit for consuming alcohol?

by cubsnlinux on Jul 23, 2007 8:58 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's a bit of a non-sequiter...
but in fact, since you asked, ideally I don't think we need an age limit.  I'll make this point very briefly so as to avoid political discussion, but I think we need education instead of legislation.  If one were to look at the European model of alcohol consumption, you would find radically lower incidences of alcoholism and alcohol related problems.  Of course this is not to say 13 year olds should be knocking back 12 packs.  It is to say that a small glass of wine with dinner at a young age demystifies the appeal.  Practically, we have gotten to the point in the country where it is too difficult to reverse ourselves and an age limit is necessary, but I do think 21 is in fact too high.  I say raise the driving age to 21 instead.
"There's no success like failure, and failure's no success at all." -B. Dylan

by Wood20K on Jul 23, 2007 9:14 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Europe
is a somewhat diverse continent.  Just where in Europe are you referring.  I think it important the European Russia as well as most of the former eastern block not be included as one of your points in favor of the "European model."  Additionally, the cultural differences between Europe and America are as wide as the Grand Canyon, i.e., in Germany, beer is food.  In America, it generally a crutch that helps one limp to a good time.

Age requirements for the purchase and consumption of alcohol are not arbitrary.  They have been based on the general theory that at age 18-21 a person has developed enough sense of responsibility to handle it.  Granted, I know folks in their fifties that shouldn't be allowed to drink, nontheless, history has shown myriad examples of the necessity for limits.

And so it goes.

by Luigi on Jul 23, 2007 9:29 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I concede your point about Europe
And apologize for misspeaking.  I was really talking about France, and then realized that many of the Western European countries fit this model.

I still think the age itself is arbitrary.  21 in the US, 19 in Canada, 16 in England.

"There's no success like failure, and failure's no success at all." -B. Dylan

by Wood20K on Jul 23, 2007 9:46 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Usually
proponents of the abolishment of minimum drinking age are those who are under whatever that minimum is or they have some other compelling reason for their position such as a friend, etc. who is also underage, as I'm guessing you are.  If I am correct, then just hang in there.  If I am incorrect then what are your specific reasons?

I'm not a lawyer, but I believe it is almost universally permissable to consume alcohol at home, with meals.  

My grandfather used to make three barrels of wine (2 red, 1 white) every fall and we had wine with almost all our meals as I grew up.

And so it goes.

by Luigi on Jul 23, 2007 9:55 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually I am a lawyer...
and as a result, am long past the age where I would have a self-interested concern.  I guess my interest is in reforming the culture that creates the wahoos that you see in the bleachers.  I'd rather prevent them from the start, than try to legislate them out of existence, because the latter never works.

As for the wine with a meal, that is in fact illegal.  However the liklihood of it ever seeing prosecution is very slim, unless say parents had a child's friend over and offered the child a glass and the friend's parents got upset and filed a grievance.

"There's no success like failure, and failure's no success at all." -B. Dylan

by Wood20K on Jul 23, 2007 10:01 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Offensive language
Yeah, "sticks and stones" and all that, but I don't want to hear foul and abusive language constantly when I take my daughters to a Cubs game.  I started taking them when they were little.  

And for that matter, I don't really want to hear it myself in that kind of forum.  If you want to drop F-bombs every other word, do it in a bar, or at home.  Don't do it around me.  I'm there to watch a baseball game.  

by ChipSet on Jul 23, 2007 9:36 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You may be there
to watch a game, but I still preserve my 1st amendment right.  That is the whole of my arguement.  I could flip yours around and say that if you don't want to hear swearing, then don't bring your daughters to any public place where it may happen.

For the record, I'm not cussing the players, I don't think it is helpful.  I just don't think that there is any sane reason that a person should be put out by profanity.

What is it about the profanity that disturbs you, as a fan?  Could you explain it to me, so that maybe I might understand it, because I just don't get it.  That may sound sarcastic, but I assure you, I'm being sincere.  I really fail to understand how one little word not even addressed to the fan in question could distract someone's attention away from a baseball game.

"There's no success like failure, and failure's no success at all." -B. Dylan

by Wood20K on Jul 23, 2007 9:52 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just wondering
How many times have you sat in the bleachers in the last couple of years?  Is it possible your view of how bad the behavior is is affected by your exposure to the behavior?  Al sits there every game, and is likely to be more sensitive to it than people who rarely attend.  

FWIW, My kids like the bleachers because it is the best place to get balls from the players during batting practice.  But we usually only sit there once a year or so because we do not enjoy the language and behavior that usually surrounds us in the bleachers.  Are my kids "hurt" by it?  No.  But is it worth spending $40 a ticket to sit by some guys that yell crude insults at opposing players and can't talk to each other without using the F word?  No, not really.  And if the Cubs want to make money, they will attempt to control the worst of the behavior.  

By the way, I work at a Big Ten school.  The choice to attend any major sporting event and sit in the student section brings up all of the same issues.  

The call of the Cub fan, c. 1893: "one long, ravaged, derisive yell...a cyclonic whoop!"

by zambranofan on Jul 23, 2007 7:23 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This transcends liberal/conservative lines...
... and I don't want this to degenerate into a political discussion.

However, the fact is that by entering a private place, with a ticket, you do agree to abide by the rules set by that private place -- i.e. Wrigley Field, or any other ballpark. If you don't, you need to pay the penalty, and swiftly.

About no beer in the Yankee Stadium bleachers, as I wrote, it doesn't stop the fans there from passionately enjoying their team and the game at hand. Drinking is not a right, it's a privilege. If abused, there are, and ought to be, consequences.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 23, 2007 8:32 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I respectfully disagree
Drinking is no more of a privilege than is watching a baseball game.  I find the idea that merely because a thing is not a right, that it is then somehow not worth preserving loathsome.  

Being inside a prison does not stop the fans there from passionately enjoying their team and the game at hand on TV, but that doesn't mean it is the ideal setting to watch one.

In short.  I disagree and hope that I am not alone in my dissent.

"There's no success like failure, and failure's no success at all." -B. Dylan

by Wood20K on Jul 23, 2007 8:56 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You didn't really seem to grasp what Al said
You are buying tickets to watch a baseball game in Wrigley Field. People are not buying tickets to get drunk. People can go to a bar for that purpose. Beer, Hot Dogs, Pizza etc are mere add ons that enhance your baseball watching experience. So if people do uncivil things under the influence of the above add-ons then something must be done to preserve the viewing experience of everyone.

Why do you think we even have an age limit for consuming Alcohol?

Why do you think we rate our movies?

by cubsnlinux on Jul 23, 2007 9:04 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I did understand that point...
I just happened to disagree with it.  Of course the ticket is for the game, and ideally the game should come first.  Speaking of movies, would you rather go to see a movie where there were no concessions, or one where you could eat?  Why willingly deprive yourself of enjoyable aspects just because some other people had misbehaved with them, and just as easily might misbehave without?

As for your point about ratings, I frankly do not see the value of them.  Ideas do not harm people; the lack of exposure to ideas does.

"There's no success like failure, and failure's no success at all." -B. Dylan

by Wood20K on Jul 23, 2007 9:19 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

More are there just to drink than you think
Maybe not going just to get drunk though I think there's quite a few who do. Night games have become much less fun for me. I'll end up going to 30 games this year give or take a couple and for the first time since 1988, only 1 game will be a night game.

I know people who go to the park to drink, like that's their primary objective. Well, I can do that at home at a significantly lower cost. Factoring in tickets, food and gas money for the 100-mile round trip in addition to $6 a shot, a game can easily exceed a C-note for me.

da-da-daddio

by blackhawk24 on Jul 23, 2007 9:21 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Without going into numbers...
I've spent a fair amount of time there, although not as much as Al (for financial reasons).  Enough to know that is where I want to be (barring the miracle offer of behind home plate seats).  Now if you don't want to expose your kids to ad hominem insults of players and cuss words, I believe very firmly that is your right.  But it is also the right of those individuals to express those sentiments, however unappealing they may be.

As for the point about the Cubs making money, I would have to disagree with you.  I think the Cubs are making more money on the obscenely marked up beer charges than the $20 hat or T-shirt that (I'm guessing) you may occasionally buy for your kids.  The rowdy environment is a draw for the frat boy idiots, and that is what still causes sell outs during lousy years.  As a result, one could make an argument that there is very little incentive to improve the quality of play on the team, because people will come regardless.  Of course, those of us long-suffering real fans are still in the trenches, but I don't think that it is us that's making the team wealthy.  In addition to having the best baseball franchise in the world, Wrigley is also home to the world's best outdoor beer garden, and I'd hate to see the two torn apart.

Thank you for your interest in my comments.

"There's no success like failure, and failure's no success at all." -B. Dylan

by Wood20K on Jul 23, 2007 8:47 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It is called
Respect for fellow humans my friend.
 I believe people in general are getting tired of boorish behavior, may it be swearing, spilling beers, throwing trash/other objects on the field, racial taunts (Jones from last year ),and general drunkeness. I have two daughters, out of respect I would expect the person(s) around me would respect that they are female, and my daughters don't need to here language that is offensive to them. I am a strong beleiver in freedom of speech, however I beleive in respect and common decency.
 And your later comment about lowering the drinking age, that is suicide.
 Al makes a good point, if people are going to act like idiots, and jepordize the game for others they should be dealt with accordingly.
 And the concern of a "conserative" bent, well if it is the majority, guess what.

by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Jul 23, 2007 10:01 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Harang is pitching lights out..
I hope CIN puts some runs on the board and gets a W

by cubsnlinux on Jul 23, 2007 7:38 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So is Capuano, so it's a wash
Wind is blowing in a bit.

Otherwise, Dunn would have a HR for the Reds, and Capuano would have had one for the Brewers.

by NTNgod on Jul 23, 2007 7:49 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

language is not the problem
it's how you use language that creates problems. it's a shame that people often treat a guy telling his friend," the cubs are f-ing great!" the same as 2 drunks yelling "f-you!" at each other. it's not the words, it's the meaning and usage that creates problems. intelligent security policies would differentiate between the two.

by anormal on Jul 23, 2007 7:42 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dang..Brandon Phillips almost put CIN ahead
But so far Capuano matched Harang pitch for pitch

1-1 @ CIN

by cubsnlinux on Jul 23, 2007 8:07 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My fantasy team...
...could've used a HR from Phillips

by vegascubsfan on Jul 23, 2007 8:08 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Trade Rumor on Cubs.com board
There is a rumored trade floating around on the cubs.com MB, confirmed by two different posters with inside sources.
What do you guys think?
Nady and Marte from Pittsburgh for
Hoffpauir, Moore, Gallagher and a PTBNL

by GoCubsGo! on Jul 23, 2007 8:09 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

uhhh
Damaso Marte, I assume, not Andy Marte, who is on the Indians

by vegascubsfan on Jul 23, 2007 8:15 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wouldn't put any money
on this happening.

BUT - it would seem as if Eyre would be involved w/another team.

MArte is a helluva LOOGY

No way they would keep Oh-NO-man! and Eyre too.

I like trading with the Pirates - they have been good for us!

It is July, and we're STILL IN IT! YES!

by TheEman on Jul 23, 2007 8:38 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i say do it
Bring back the damn cowbell!

by CubsBall2202 on Jul 23, 2007 8:23 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ugh, ugh, UGH!!!
If the Cubs get Damaso Marte, within a week you will all be bitching about how many people he walks.

Damaso Marte is Spanish for "Will Ohman".

And the Cubs will regret giving up Gallagher, if they do.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 23, 2007 8:35 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think Nady
is the sweetner in this deal, but I agree on Marte. He's no less inconsistent than anyone the Cubs already have. However, while Gallagher looks like a serviceable pitcher, I haven't seen anything from him that would suggest he's this trade would be Brock for Broglio....
"One thing you learn as a Cubs fan: When you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth." - Joe Garagiola

by gary varsho on Jul 23, 2007 8:42 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mea Culpa: syntax.
This:

However, while Gallagher looks like a serviceable pitcher, I haven't seen anything from him that would suggest he's this trade would be Brock for Broglio....

Should read:

However, while Gallagher looks like a serviceable pitcher, I haven't seen anything from him that would suggest he's this trade's  Brock to Nady's Broglio....

"One thing you learn as a Cubs fan: When you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth." - Joe Garagiola

by gary varsho on Jul 23, 2007 8:44 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Gallagher...
... is only 21 years old. After some adjustments, he has dominated every level he's pitched at.

If the Cubs deal him, in two years they'll be really sorry.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 24, 2007 4:09 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I didn't realize he was that young.
Yeah, I might be reticent to move a guy that young, but the Cubs really need an every day RF...
"One thing you learn as a Cubs fan: When you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth." - Joe Garagiola

by gary varsho on Jul 24, 2007 5:41 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Al - White Sox version, yes...
I just checked -

1.53 ERA
12 BB
34 K Almost 3:1 K to BB!
5 Earned Runs...

It is pretty damned good.

It is July, and we're STILL IN IT! YES!

by TheEman on Jul 23, 2007 8:43 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If you really believe...
... Damaso Marte is the answer, I have two words for you:

Neal Cotts.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 24, 2007 4:09 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Turnbow just turned Dunn into a pretzel
Yeow.

Fastball, curve, then slider.

by NTNgod on Jul 23, 2007 8:16 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sharp inning from Turnbow
Now the Reds have to dip into their bullpen, which is always an adventure.

by NTNgod on Jul 23, 2007 8:19 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OK, scratch the going to the bullpen part
Relievers? Aaron Harang needs no relief!

by NTNgod on Jul 23, 2007 8:21 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well,
we'll probably face harang next weekend, so i hope he pitches a 140 pitch win tonight and tires out his arm.

by anormal on Jul 23, 2007 8:24 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

harang starting the 10th, strikes out jenkins
hopefully reds can put 1 on the board but both offenses look awful tonight
Bring back the damn cowbell!

by CubsBall2202 on Jul 23, 2007 8:22 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good pitching has a way of doing that...
Making offenses look bad, that is.

by NTNgod on Jul 23, 2007 8:23 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

wow,
what a performance by harang. that's impressive. now, get a run reds.
"If you play more than two chords, you're showing off."--Woody Guthrie

by buckmulligan on Jul 23, 2007 8:27 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Harang is amazing..
strikes out Hart to end the inning..

by cubsnlinux on Jul 23, 2007 8:28 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I am amazed as well
You hardly see 9 from a starter any more let alone 10.  Score Reds Score.
The Cubs Are On Their Way!!

by DenverCub on Jul 23, 2007 8:31 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

danimal15...
... will be thrilled.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 23, 2007 8:34 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you know the brewers are going to pour
it on now.
"If you play more than two chords, you're showing off."--Woody Guthrie

by buckmulligan on Jul 23, 2007 8:36 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pedro Lopez dropped the ball!
Whoa... routine SS play.

by NTNgod on Jul 23, 2007 8:39 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Braun comes up....
..for some reason, I just cannot stand that guy...he's playing to well for a player his age and is doing incredible things
Bring Back Matt Murton!!

by Chanman25 on Jul 23, 2007 8:40 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

proving my point
that guy is too good, its suspisous
Bring Back Matt Murton!!

by Chanman25 on Jul 23, 2007 8:41 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i'm not sure what that means...
but it is ridiculous how the kid is dominating. it seems like the brewers hit 2 or 3 homeruns a game, and braun normally has 1 of them.
"If you play more than two chords, you're showing off."--Woody Guthrie

by buckmulligan on Jul 23, 2007 8:47 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

3-5. now
He gave Pence a month head start, but he's caught up in most counting stats.

He's a very good bet for ROY

by NTNgod on Jul 23, 2007 8:42 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pence is doing things on a normal pace.
Braun on the other hand..
Bring Back Matt Murton!!

by Chanman25 on Jul 23, 2007 8:43 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well,
if he's on something, it hasn't made him any good with the glove. He's still a butcher on defense, but Hardy's got exceptional range and it covers up a lot of his defensive deficiencies.
"One thing you learn as a Cubs fan: When you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth." - Joe Garagiola

by gary varsho on Jul 23, 2007 8:46 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Jenkins HBP
Weathers is sure making this interesting

by NTNgod on Jul 23, 2007 8:46 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah, after the reds failed to score
this finish was obvious.
"If you play more than two chords, you're showing off."--Woody Guthrie

by buckmulligan on Jul 23, 2007 8:44 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

jenkins is gonna swing for the river.
"If you play more than two chords, you're showing off."--Woody Guthrie

by buckmulligan on Jul 23, 2007 8:45 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cedeno getting called up...
Moore sent down (so he can pack his bags for Pitt LOL!)
It is July, and we're STILL IN IT! YES!

by TheEman on Jul 23, 2007 8:45 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cedeno deserves another chance
and god Weathers!! Don't hit batters on 1-2 counts!!
Bring Back Matt Murton!!

by Chanman25 on Jul 23, 2007 8:46 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He seems to have one of these
torrid stretches every year.
"One thing you learn as a Cubs fan: When you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth." - Joe Garagiola

by gary varsho on Jul 23, 2007 8:48 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He was the streak king w/ Texas
Remember when he homered in eight straight games?

by NTNgod on Jul 23, 2007 8:49 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's Right!
He switched to 1/2 size larger shoes and went on this silly homerun binge.
"One thing you learn as a Cubs fan: When you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth." - Joe Garagiola

by gary varsho on Jul 23, 2007 8:50 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that was annoying to listen to too
I mean how the heck do shoes have an effect on your hitting??
Bring Back Matt Murton!!

by Chanman25 on Jul 23, 2007 8:52 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe
it was actually that his helmet was too small and he was embarassed to say so...as soon as they modified a camper shell to make him a batting helmet, he could actually see and began hitting!
"One thing you learn as a Cubs fan: When you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth." - Joe Garagiola

by gary varsho on Jul 23, 2007 8:55 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes.
That streak cost me waiver priority that I really could've used later on. Now I loathe that large headed streakmeister.
"One thing you learn as a Cubs fan: When you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth." - Joe Garagiola

by gary varsho on Jul 23, 2007 8:50 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah, i hate this guy.
mench and jenkins are my least favorite brewers, though i'm most frightened of capuano...shudder.
"If you play more than two chords, you're showing off."--Woody Guthrie

by buckmulligan on Jul 23, 2007 8:48 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't like Braun and Mench
and Sheets and Fielder and Hardy
Bring Back Matt Murton!!

by Chanman25 on Jul 23, 2007 8:49 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Security
Maybe it's just me, but people will act like hooligans no matter what. Some people need to throw things to have a good time. Most are too inebriated to notice security or lack thereof. In general the problem isn't bad. Baseball is extremely tame compared to say, Euro "Football". I think it's best we just focus on the game and the Cubs are playing great.
www.beegcellent.com

by BeegcellentBaseball on Jul 23, 2007 8:49 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

how funny would it be if mench
took a walk here.
"If you play more than two chords, you're showing off."--Woody Guthrie

by buckmulligan on Jul 23, 2007 8:49 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the reds....
got lucky.  I hope they get a run here and end the game.  

by AJ on Jul 23, 2007 8:50 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah, that was a magic act.
"If you play more than two chords, you're showing off."--Woody Guthrie

by buckmulligan on Jul 23, 2007 8:50 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

come on reds, hurt them.
give them the tough loss.
"If you play more than two chords, you're showing off."--Woody Guthrie

by buckmulligan on Jul 23, 2007 8:52 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

they do hit a lot of homeruns though.
"If you play more than two chords, you're showing off."--Woody Guthrie

by buckmulligan on Jul 23, 2007 8:53 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

give me a bat
I could hit a HR in that park.
Bring Back Matt Murton!!

by Chanman25 on Jul 23, 2007 8:54 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

they might as well play 30 innings now.
"If you play more than two chords, you're showing off."--Woody Guthrie

by buckmulligan on Jul 23, 2007 8:53 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

wow
cant believe the brewers didnt score last inning. would be real nice for the reds to get one across this inning because i dont know how much longer their bullpen can hold milwaukee. plus, weathers will be done for the night and after that...well lets just say the rest of the bullpen is pretty rough to put it nicely

by bennyha on Jul 23, 2007 8:54 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

isn't it nice
to see the team next up for the Cubs and the team in contention with the Cubs just wearing each other out?
"One thing you learn as a Cubs fan: When you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth." - Joe Garagiola

by gary varsho on Jul 23, 2007 8:56 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, the bullpens are pretty fresh
When one starter goes 10 innings, and other starter goes "only" 8 innings... an 11-inning game isn't as bad as it normally would be.

by NTNgod on Jul 23, 2007 8:59 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah, but this
will also take a toll on the hitters, too. No sit and hit in the NL. All these guys have to trot and play the field every half inning. I hope this thing goes all night.
"One thing you learn as a Cubs fan: When you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth." - Joe Garagiola

by gary varsho on Jul 23, 2007 9:05 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yep
you beat me to it gary. i was going to echo your comments. even though the pitchers might not be warn out, the longer this thing goes on, the more and more it takes a toll on the players. i agree, i am all for a 24 inning game tonight that the reds eventually win 2-1.

by bennyha on Jul 23, 2007 9:07 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it sure is
hopefully the next 3 games of this series follow a similar pattern as tonights. and i dont mean to be captain obvious, but it would be really nice for the reds to take this game tonight. with harang throwing tonight, i was counting on the reds to take atleast the game harang started.

by bennyha on Jul 23, 2007 9:01 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

what a great at bat. i wish i had this on tv.
"If you play more than two chords, you're showing off."--Woody Guthrie

by buckmulligan on Jul 23, 2007 8:56 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

if you wanna watch it on tv
download and install a program called sopcast and then type this into a browser:  sop://broker.sopcast.com:3912/27362

by AJ on Jul 23, 2007 9:00 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

sweet, i already have sopcast for bears games.
"If you play more than two chords, you're showing off."--Woody Guthrie

by buckmulligan on Jul 23, 2007 9:02 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

does sopcast work for the cubs?
When in doubt punch Barret in the face

by jds2 on Jul 23, 2007 9:31 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i hope dunn crushes one.
"If you play more than two chords, you're showing off."--Woody Guthrie

by buckmulligan on Jul 23, 2007 8:57 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

damn
probably the last person you want walk on that team is weeks. his bat is quiet but has probably the best speed on their team

by bennyha on Jul 23, 2007 9:09 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

nevermind
hart doesnt even give him a chance to steal and grounds into a dp

by bennyha on Jul 23, 2007 9:10 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Best case scenario
The brewers and reds game goes into at least twenty innings and the reds hit a walk off home run.  It would be nice for the brewers bullpen to be worn out throughout their 7 game stretch.  Go reds!

by AJ on Jul 23, 2007 9:09 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

better yet Fielder pulls a hammy
Sheets damages a finger while eating peanuts, and Braun pulls something..
Bring Back Matt Murton!!

by Chanman25 on Jul 23, 2007 9:11 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hmm
I don't want to root for injuries to happen....but if it does...i won't be complaining.  But just think how demoralizing a lost in the 20th inning will be after they had the bases loaded.  

by AJ on Jul 23, 2007 9:13 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and Fielder pulls a hammy in the process
hey, I'd love it! I don't want people to be injured, but if its nothing serious, go ahead!
Bring Back Matt Murton!!

by Chanman25 on Jul 23, 2007 9:16 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

end this thing.
"If you play more than two chords, you're showing off."--Woody Guthrie

by buckmulligan on Jul 23, 2007 9:11 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Jeff Conine due up...
...a chance for BCB'ers to get a look at a rumored trade target (please, God, let them just be rumors.)
"One thing you learn as a Cubs fan: When you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth." - Joe Garagiola

by gary varsho on Jul 23, 2007 9:12 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Balfour
lives up to his name....
"One thing you learn as a Cubs fan: When you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth." - Joe Garagiola

by gary varsho on Jul 23, 2007 9:16 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Balfour has....
a 16.88 era.  This is the Red's chance to end it.  

by AJ on Jul 23, 2007 9:16 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

another walk
come on Ross!
Bring Back Matt Murton!!

by Chanman25 on Jul 23, 2007 9:18 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

cmon david ross
end this thing. this would be a tough loss for the beers considering they had em loaded with no outs in the 11th and came away with zilch.

by bennyha on Jul 23, 2007 9:19 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

balfour
is pitching absolutely horrible.  haha...this is awesome.  Game over!  Reds win...brewers lose!

by AJ on Jul 23, 2007 9:20 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Balfour
throws yet another ball four.
"One thing you learn as a Cubs fan: When you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth." - Joe Garagiola

by gary varsho on Jul 23, 2007 9:19 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yay!!
3.O!
Bring Back Matt Murton!!

by Chanman25 on Jul 23, 2007 9:20 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

BASES LOADED NO OUTS
cmon reds end this thing

by bennyha on Jul 23, 2007 9:20 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lol they did
2-1 Final Reds Win

3 back!

Bring Back Matt Murton!!

by Chanman25 on Jul 23, 2007 9:21 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And even more important....
...two in the loss column.
da-da-daddio

by blackhawk24 on Jul 23, 2007 9:24 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ALRITE
GOOD DEAL BACK TO THREE OUT! THANKS CINCY

by bennyha on Jul 23, 2007 9:21 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

3 Back!
Nice job Reds. There's a soft underbelly to this Brewers team and it's the bullpen (outside of Turnbow and Cordero) and their defense.
"One thing you learn as a Cubs fan: When you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth." - Joe Garagiola

by gary varsho on Jul 23, 2007 9:22 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm loving it!
Milwaukee starts off a stretch of 8 road games in 7 days with extra innings madness in Cincinnati.

Chicago enjoys the off-day and 1/2 game move in the standings as they play 6 games in 7...

Tinker to Evers to Chance!

by sanantonecub on Jul 23, 2007 9:25 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Let's just hope...
Harang blew his load pitching tonight. The Cubs should face him on Saturday. Hope he isn't as sharp Saturday.
da-da-daddio

by blackhawk24 on Jul 23, 2007 9:27 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thank you Cincy....
Love,

A Cubs Fan

"The game is always healthier when the Cubs are good, and in a week they have made themselves a whole lot better."

by BillHoldenFan on Jul 23, 2007 9:25 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

haha
nicely put

by bennyha on Jul 23, 2007 9:26 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Had Brew been at Miller
the outcome would have been different.

Phew!

It is July, and we're STILL IN IT! YES!

by TheEman on Jul 23, 2007 9:27 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Now if only Colorado
Would do their part...
Tinker to Evers to Chance!

by sanantonecub on Jul 23, 2007 9:26 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

THEY DID
rocks come from behind to win

by zevkalman on Jul 23, 2007 10:37 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

TOO BAD BREWERS!!!!
psychologically, that's a nice little boost for us, that half-game. 3 out, 2 in the loss column.  i think we're in good shape.
- CF

by nervousCUBlover on Jul 23, 2007 9:46 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Padres lose
7-5 to the Rockies.  

by jshipp on Jul 23, 2007 10:38 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

rockies win
cubs are now 1.5 games out in the wildcard

by anormal on Jul 23, 2007 10:38 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thank You Colorado
Love,

The same Cubs fan as earlier...

"The game is always healthier when the Cubs are good, and in a week they have made themselves a whole lot better."

by BillHoldenFan on Jul 23, 2007 10:41 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

LOL
But yes, thank you, Rockies and Reds. Please do the same later today.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 24, 2007 4:11 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

FYI
Cedeno called back up. Scott Moore sent back down to AAA. Source ESPN 1000

by giddyup on Jul 23, 2007 10:43 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good
That move doesn't surprise me. Makes sense.

by vegascubsfan on Jul 23, 2007 10:51 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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