Bleed Cubbie Blue: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
New Blog: The Boxing Bulletin for Boxing Fans!

Ryan Theriot becoming a favorite of mine.

Ryan Theriot seems to find someway to impress me each and every game and it all starts with the little things. Ryan doesn't try to be the "hero" everytime he approachs the plate. Instead the man trys to find anyway he can possibly get on base.

 First off, we all know that Theriot is going to be the last guy of resort towards power and he even knows that himself. Theriot reminds me of a David Eckstein type though. You know the scrappy type of player that does the little things such as getting on base, stealing bases, setting up possible runs, and making contact.

Ryan has an excellent glove by the way and I just think that it might be time to part with Ronny Cedeno via trade and stick to having Ryan Theriot as are everyday shortstop. The guy comes to play everyday and he might not stick out huge on the boxscore at the end of the game but if you take the time too just watch the way that he plays his game you will understand where I am coming from.

Star-divide

I don't know if any of you realize the way he has started such rallies with just making contact and not trying to hit the damn ball over the fence everytime he gets up.

For example, If you didn't watch tonights game against St. Louis
Ryan Theriot did pretty much what I stated about him. In the top of the seventh with 2 outs and nobody on, Theriot just makes contact and just happens to be hit towards Gold Glover 3rd Baseman Scott Rolen.

 A rare error occuring by Rolen ends up continuing  the 7th and he ends up coming around to score on an Aramis Ramirez 2 out single to make it 3-2 now.

 Last, to go into the top of the ninth with two outs again, Theriot drawls a walk. Now with him on first base he decides to steal second and has converted 17 out of 20 times on the year for stolen bases. With that he set up a chance to go up by two and with the scrappy play of Theriot it turned up to be huge.

Derek Lee ended up connecting on a two out single which allowed Theriot to score and now the Cubs be up against the Cardinals 4-2.

With that run it turned out to be monumental towards the outcome of the game and the Cubs ended up winning 4-3 with the almighty Albert Pujols grounding out to...
RYAN THERIOT!

Obviously, Ryan makes a great number two hitter and possibly a leadoff hitter. Personally I would rather see him leading off with Alfonso Soriano batting second because I like to see a number two hitter with power.

I just love the way the guy plays because of his desire to be on the field and the way he hustles on every play.

Feel free to comment as I am anxious to know what my fellow Cubs fans think.

Poll
Who should our starting shortstop be?
Ryan Theriot
194 votes
Ronny Cedeno
7 votes
Mike Fontenot
1 votes
Mark Derosa
5 votes

207 votes | Poll has closed

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

0 recs  |  Comment 182 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

I don't think there's much debate
about who should be the Cubs' starting shortstop right now. Three months ago, there was.

To provide some debate, I'll nitpick and say that you can't use the 7th inning error to support the case that Theriot does whatever he can to get on base.  It was an error. He should not have got on base and he only did because Rolen let it happen. Now, you could argue that Theriot is a great guy to have that happen to - because of his speed and his smart baserunning, helping get him around from first to home eventually. But you can't credit him for getting from home to first.

But this is half-hearted debate. I agree - Ryan is The Riot.

Why does everybody stand up and sing "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" when they're already there? ~Larry Anderson

by JohnM on Jul 25, 2007 4:28 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

A-ROD??
What about him? JK
GO CUBS GO!!!!!!

by roach on Jul 25, 2007 4:30 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Theriot at Short
DeRo in Right
Fontenot on 2b
Los Cachorros!

by Laven on Jul 25, 2007 7:30 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

For the Riot fans
a friend of a friend of a friend sent me this site...

www.addisonstation.com

Good Riot wear.

MMMMM...Hebrew National

by Kinky Reggae on Jul 25, 2007 8:13 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Theriot well grounded in the fundamentals
Theriot's experience within the LSU program headed up at the time by legendary Skip Bertman has been pivotal to his long term success.  These teams were expertly coached and became regular champions of the college circuit.  Fortunately, the same spirit and energy has fallen in the lap of the Cubs organization.  Fontenot shows a similar positive edge that should be further developed by Piniella's staff.  I look forward to watching Ryan in Cub pinstripes for years to come.

by Cajuncub on Jul 25, 2007 8:16 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

not a straight up this or that guy
Theriot has earned the starting SS spot and Cedeno has reearned the utility spot now made available as Izturis trade.

Other than that competition is great for both players.

Milw-09-24-98--Brown in for defense--bases loaded--flyball--HE DROPPED THE BALL!!!NO NO NO, cubs lose 8-7

by Ivy Walls on Jul 25, 2007 8:31 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

yeah
I really don't want a "david eckstein type". David Eckstein is bad at baseball.

Theriot's OPS is under .700, making him one of the most overrated baseball players by some people on this site. He really isn't very good.

Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 9:19 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

However...
... you'd take Eckstein's two World Series rings, wouldn't you?

And don't say he didn't contribute or that he wasn't one of the biggest reasons for both of them, because he was.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 25, 2007 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And wasn't Eckstein the World Series MVP?
Don't get me wrong -- I'm no big fan of the guy. Just sayin'...
Brew Crew: We are coming for you. (And we mean it this time.)

by dat cubfan daver on Jul 25, 2007 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure he's overrated, just unexpected
True, he's no Hanley Ramirez, but he's a mid-stat SS that came out of our system - a system that hasn't produced a decent position player in a while.

I might agree that maybe he's getting a bit too much adulation but he's getting the job done at a position that we've been deficient at for too long.

'07 Postseason: Bears, Bulls... Cubs?

by stelmodad on Jul 25, 2007 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

re: yeah
Seriously? Does that one stat sentence Theriot to baseball purgatory?

Granted, Ryan did go through a cold spell of sorts in the last month or so (around the time Fontenot got so hot). But it seems to me, overall, he has been pretty good at baseball.

He works counts, he steals bases, he scores runs, he fields his position adequately -- and, overall, it seems like he's done this with pretty good consistency since coming to the Cubs late last season.

I realize the guy has shortcomings, but I admire what he's done for this team.

 

Brew Crew: We are coming for you. (And we mean it this time.)

by dat cubfan daver on Jul 25, 2007 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Loud sustained applause
(to the comment by dat cubfandaver). You said it just right.

Theriot is the kind of player I have seen elsewhere (Lenny Dykstra, Eckstein) but haven't seen on the Cubs much in recent years. A scrappy, hustling athlete who would run over his own mother to score a run.

"Hello again, everybody. Harry Caray from Wrigley Field on a beautiful day for baseball."

by danimal15 on Jul 25, 2007 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And...
... one whose stat line does not fully state his contributions to the team.

Sorry, statheads, but sometimes that's a fact.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 25, 2007 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

well, I guess if you declare it a fact
it must be true.

I'm not even going to bother arguing with you, because you obviously don't want to understand statistics (proven by some of the baseless arguments above). Maybe if Theriot had a DECENT stat line I could agree with your completely unscientific gut assessment that Theriot's value doesn't show up in the box score, but (aside from his sb%) the stats he's put up have been nothing short of terrible. I do agree that he IS probably better than his stats indicate (because his stats indicate a Cedenoan (c. 2006) type year), but that doesn't mean he isn't still bad. Lucky for him, he's still much better than Izturis was, and hence he's currently our best option at SS (and made the  Izturis trade possible).

And yes, I am saying right here, right now that david eckstein is a shitty baseball player, and his contributions to the cardinals are grossly overstated by you in your post above. The fact that he was world series MVP is essentially irrelevant when assessing his worth as a baseball player: Neifi Perez hit near 400 in his first month or so with the cubs. Even crappy baseball players have the ability to put up impressive numbers over short periods. Besides, the Cubs haven't had a need for a world series mvp in like one or 70 years, wouldn't you say?

Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

fact?
Sorry, statheads, but sometimes that's a fact.

Pretty loose use of the word fact there. Since you cannot prove that his contributions to the team exist outside his stat line those contributions are not facts. They are your perceptions.

Differentiating fact from perception is a pretty important player evaluation tool.

by jacob on Jul 25, 2007 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks!
And if Theriot's diminuitive size is hereditary, he wouldn't have to run over his mother to score. He could just do a headfirst dive over her, perform a midair somersault and complete a perfect gymnast's landing on home plate.

That's the kind of athleticism Ryan Theriot brings to the game of baseball.

Brew Crew: We are coming for you. (And we mean it this time.)

by dat cubfan daver on Jul 25, 2007 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Theriot is a baseball player
in a baseball world when too many teams focus on physical skills as opposed to baseball skills.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

what the hell are you talking about?
this is the kind of statement that people who call sports talk radio make.
Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Baseball skills vs physical skills
if you don't understand it, it's not worth explaining.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

and I suppose...
you think with your gut instead of your brain, because the gut has more nerve endings?
Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No
I watch with my eyes, and observe what I see.

But hey, whatever blows your dress up.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

good baseball players
blow my dress up, and Theriot hasn't done anything to accomplish that. Perhaps your mancrush on him has  raised your dress via a different means besides wind?
Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mancrush?
that sounds like something you would hear from someone on sports radio, who thinks the history of baseball started with Sabermetrics.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

who on sports talk radio thinks that?
Precisely why I compared your views to a sports talk radio listener.....you're line of thinking is highly consistent with theirs.
Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So
if sports talk radio listeners have acknowledged that their is a difference between pure physical talent, and baseball specific talent, then you are right, my view is consistent with theirs.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

this is just a bullshit statement
with no thoughtful observation or substance. If you're saying what I think you're saying, your nugget of wisdom would be obvious to a 5 year old. Essentially, you mean that a track stat wouldn't be as good at baseball as an out of shape drunk like david wells, since wells has "baseball skill". Thank you, captain obvious.

Your argument still has nothing to do with Ryan Theriot. If anything, he obviously has LESS baseball specific skill than the players that are....uh.....skilled.

Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ce tout
Couillion......

by Cajuncub on Jul 25, 2007 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are free to think of it however you like
n/t
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

thanks for the permission
I was hoping you'd let me.
Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't do it for everyone
but for you, I will make an exception.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't let the Drunk get to ya
He still believes Bonds is the best player in baseball...enough said.
"Prince Fielder Dies Of Inside-The-Park Homerun" - The Onion

by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

funny, I think you just made that up
I do remember saying that he's the most potent offensive force in the NATIONAL LEAGUE when he plays (which is true), but you remember it any way you want.

A Rod has been the best player in baseball this year.

Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

oops, my bad
not in baseball but you did say the best in the NL

"but he has clearly been the best player in the nl"

is your exact statemet, not "most potent offensive force" but "best player in the nl".

"Prince Fielder Dies Of Inside-The-Park Homerun" - The Onion

by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yea, well
Barry, is Barry.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

OPS
Does every player on a team need to slug?

He does almost everything else pretty well. None of them great, but all pretty well. Certainly better -- and that is the point of the poll I think -- than the other current option at SS. (I think Cedeno is the only other real option.)

Why does everybody stand up and sing "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" when they're already there? ~Larry Anderson

by JohnM on Jul 25, 2007 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

brilliant
OPS....what does that stand for?
ON BASE plus slugging

In fact, OBA is weighted more than slugging in the most current metrics. Theriot has a good, but far from special OBA around 340. If he was getting on at a .380 clip, I wouldn't be having this discussion. His complete lack of slugging ability makes getting on base paramount.

And the reason OPS is important, is because team OPS correlates strongly with winning (taken independantly from pitching, of course). Why is it so hard for you traditionalists to connect the dots...high team OPS = wins. therefore players with high OPS = good.

Again, I do see the benefit of having high energy guys like Theriot (or gamers, or whatever the hell you want to call him), but his statistics have been so poor, that his "energy" doesn't make up the difference.

Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Theriot's OPS+ of 83
is indeed pretty bad; however, you are ignoring defense. For example, Adam Everett's OPS+ is a horrible 55, but he is phenomenal defender.

FWIW, metrics like UZR by MGL seem to consider Theriot as a good defender:

Name, Retrosheet ID, Position ,Team, Chances (Outs an average fielder would make), Range Runs,Error runs,Total Runs,Defensive Games, Runs per 150

"Theriot, Ryan",therr001,6,chn,64, 5,1,5,24,34

For comparison, Adam Everett:

"Everett, Adam",evera001,6,hou,128,11,0,11,49,35

Derek Jeter:

"Jeter, Derek",jeted001,6,nya,214,-14,1,-13,82,-24

Miguel Tejada:

"Tejada, Miguel",tejam001,6,bal,168,-1,3,1,64,3

By UZR, over 150 games, Theriot is 58 runs better than Derek Jeter defensively, and 31 runs better than Miguel Tejada.

BPro's defensive metrics, which are less reliable than UZR, also believe that Theriot is a good defender: Runs Above Average of 3 in 46 games at SS, RATE of 108.

visiting A's fan.

by rfloh on Jul 25, 2007 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What are you thinking?!
OPS is the only stat that matters when assessing the talent of a player. PERIOD.

oh, that's a sarcastic statement by the way...

"Prince Fielder Dies Of Inside-The-Park Homerun" - The Onion

by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

the adults are talking
Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree
I was purely discussing Ryan Theriot's offensive skill. He's been a surprisingly sure glove over at SS (considering the fact that he was allegedly moved from SS to 2b because he was a weak SS).
Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

furthermore
Some of the people here seem to think that I think OPS is the only worthwhile stat (it's not even the most telling offensive stat). I believe that defense is more important than offense at catcher, and almost as important at shortstop (I was/am one of the biggest proponents of dumping barrett).Therefore, I don't hate theriot at SS right now, since he's had a pretty sure glove, and he's obviously our best option.

I do, however, object strongly to those here who think Theriot is an offensive force because he steals bases and provides energy. Any offensive metric you care to choose points to a BAD offensive player (hell, even bis batting average...the least statty offensive stat there is....points to a mediocre player).

Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Obviously
you are one, who subscribes to the theory, that every that happens on a baseball field, can be measured with statistics?
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes
Essentially, everything aside from luck/variation over short sample sizes can be analyzed statistically. I gather that because you can't, or won't try to understand statistical analysis you try to dismiss it in favor of gut-based bullshit.

Whether anyone out there understands how to decipher a given stat is irrelevant. The fact remains that almost everything in baseball shows up in some statistical form. The great challenge lies in deciphering meaning from copious data.

I don't get why this is so hard to understand. Everything that happens in a baseball game/season plays out like a massive computer program. Every event has a cause and effect. Winning depends on the outcome of numerous variables, causes and effects, and represents a macro-scale interaction between players on the same team, and players from opposing teams. As a result, every variable necessarily shows up in some statistical form.

Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's all I needed to know
n/t
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly.
This entire argument is ridiculous, because it is being made by people who think everything can be boiled down to a stat on a spreadsheet.

The simple fact is, and you, MPH73, having played the game, know that is simply not true. There are things about winning baseball that cannot be measured on a stat sheet. Period. That is a fact, and it is incontrovertible.

For Thelonious to call people names and use profanity in trying to explain his position is just plain wrong. We can disagree about things, but the fact is, baseball is played by human beings on a field, not by computers. Until it's played by robots, there will be things that win games that do not show up in any "metrics", advanced or not.

Finally, many of you who quote statistics to back up your positions ad nauseum are using stats as an end in themselves. That's just plain wrong.

But you go right ahead. David Eckstein may be a statistically crappy player. But he helped two teams win World Series by things he did on the field. That is a fact. And someday Ryan Theriot may do the very same thing.

I'm finished arguing about this.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 25, 2007 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

as you say, "loud sustained applause"
I don't particularly like the theory that people  can determine a players worth without ever watching a player play.  All they do is base their opinions on stat sheets and nothing more.  There are so many variables that happen in baseball that can't and won't ever be determinable by statistics.  

Give me a grizzled old baseball vet that has been in the game for his entire life over a computer geek who's never seen a game in his life any day for determining a player's worth.  And I'm not calling anyone here names or making any judgements on anybody on this board when I say that.

"Prince Fielder Dies Of Inside-The-Park Homerun" - The Onion

by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gary Hughes convinced Jimbo....
...that Jason Kendall was going to have a huge second half. Enough said?

by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What's he played?
6 games with the Cubs, hardly a complete 2nd half.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, 6 games do determine
a player's worth!  Plus, Offense is everything!
"Prince Fielder Dies Of Inside-The-Park Homerun" - The Onion

by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So you two will allow us, then...
...to re-evaluate Kendall at the end of the year and see if he did have a big second half? And if, indeed, the starters didn't do worse than with Barrett in there?

You'll allow us to revisit this at the end of the year then?

by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

uh...Sure
you can probably even evaluate him before the end of the season, but it's hard to make a decision after 6 games
"Prince Fielder Dies Of Inside-The-Park Homerun" - The Onion

by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not a devout stathead
as I think there are plenty of things that can't be explained simply by the numbers.

That said, the idea that you think you can look at Theriot on the field and have a clue as to what unmeasurable factors he brings to the table that really help a team is absurd.  You are making an argument based on what you think you see the hour or so that Theriot is actually on the field.  

It's an argument that you can rehash ad nauseum (as you do with your claim that Damian Miller was responsible for the 2003 NL Central Title), but it's an argument that cannot be backed up in any reasonable fashion.  It's you making up what you think the impact of a player like Theriot or Eckstein has.  When people respond with stats, you pronounce that stats don't prove anything.  But the only other option is for people to say that they have a better way of measuring immeasurables than you do.  Those kind of arguments are great for elementary school, but hardly make for good adult baseball discussion.

by Porfi on Jul 25, 2007 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

well said
Very well said!

I've been trying to say exactly that for quite a while here. The thing that consistently drives me nuts is the ends justify the means mentality.

It's used all the time here.

Eckstein is good cause the cardinals won the world series. A pitcher pitched well cause the team won the game. A hitter hit well cause his base hit came with men on base, etc, etc, etc.

It's just an entirely flawed attempt at reasoning. Luckily this is just baseball and nobody gets hurt. The worst that happens is a 96 million dollar team loses 96 games. Outside of baseball that kind of thinking is dangerous.

by jacob on Jul 25, 2007 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nominated!!!
For most ridiculous, hyperbolic statement of the day! (and that's saying a lot in this thread)

Did you guys see how Eckstein hit that lazy pop fly to left-center where he knew the grass had been over-watered and Curtis Granderson would slip? Thus making it a big run-producing double than turned the game. It was Theriot-like.

Or how he willed his teammates to hit those bunts and weak grounders back to pitchers and then made them commit a number of errors? That's amazing.

I ask you to please name 3 things Theriot does, things that can't be measured in stats, that help his team win.

by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's exactly the point.
You can't make a list of them. Such a list does not exist.

But if something on the field happens that exemplifies this, it can easily be noted at the time that it does. It's called "doing the little things".

You may not be able to measure it, but managers notice. Teammates notice. And opponents notice.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 25, 2007 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

YOU DARN WELL CAN MEASURE IT!!!
Tharr just pointed it out.

I notice those things, too, Al. But ya know what? I also notice when he K's in the last at-bat of the game. Or when he goes in a slump. Or when he gets lucky because one of the best 3B in the game makes an error.

I like theriot. He doesn't try to do more than he can. He plays to his strengths to minimize his weaknesses. But he's not that good of a player. There are probably 20-25 SS I'd rather have than him.

Aramis Ramirez doesn't hustle. He doesn't come to play every day. He has no plate discipline. Until this year, he was an average defender, at best.

You take 8 of the former. I'll take 8 of the latter. Who wins?

by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You know damn well..
... that it takes all types of players to make up a team.

I'll take people who perform on the field in various different ways, whether it's a Ramirez hitting home runs, or a Theriot hustling. Takes all types.

You go right ahead and put together a "team" of players who have good statistics. They'll look great on paper, and they might suck on the field.

If I have to explain the reasons why this is so, maybe you shouldn't be a baseball fan.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 25, 2007 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Now you're telling me what fan I can be?
Wow.

You don't have to explain this, because I understand what factor luck plays into baseball. Apparently, you don't believe in luck?

And what's the quotes around "team" for?

It's rather unfortunate that someone who has such a popular baseball site really doesn't understand the game at all. It's sad. I feel sorry for the people who come her for knowledge and get sucked into lesser understanding than what they originally had.

If you don't get that, maybe you should do more movie reviews.

by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't understand the game at all?
What a joke. I'm sure the overwhelming majority of people here realize how full of it you are.

Now go on back to one of the stat geek sites, where you can all congratulate each other on how statistically smart you are. Enjoy yourselves.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 25, 2007 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My point proven...
...the people here have their heads so far under the sand, you're probably right.

And the "you don't know baseball" thing was basically just a repeat of what you said to me. It doesn't feel good, does it?

by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

this is Al at his most ignorant
I generally stop reading after you proclaim unsubstantiated observations and opinions as "incontrivertible fact". It just isn't even worth my time to argue sgainst such an immovable, yet fallacious position.
Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nor is it worth my time...
... to respond to anything calling me names.

Knock it off.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 25, 2007 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm hardly calling you names
I'm using the adjective "ignorant" to describe you. If you're going to continue making baseless statements, I'll continue to describe you as such.
Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

When you say "baseless statements"...
... you mean that I'm not quoting statistics.

I just got finished saying that the value of a certain player, in some cases, cannot be measured by numbers on a spreadsheet.

That is, in truth, an incontrovertible fact. You cannot disprove my statement. Thus to call it "ignorant", is, in fact, wrong.

I could say it's "ignorant", but I choose not to.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 25, 2007 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You can even say...
...what helps wins games. You said "they exist" but I don't know what they are. What the heck does that even mean.

"doing the little things" What are those little things? How can you say they exist if you don't even know what they are? I know what a friggin' unicorn is. I could at least describe it to you.

You're just saying these things to get your site hits up. I'm convinced of it.

by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're so full of it....
... because obviously, you, and some others, are convinced that my site hits are in some way connected to the small amount of money I make on this site.

Nothing could be further from the truth; however, how I do make money from this site is none of your business.

This is the last thing I will EVER say on this topic.

About the other thing you mention, yes, "little things" that are not measurable on stat sheets can win baseball games. Can I quantify what they are? No, I can't.

Go on back to your spreadsheets. Hope you enjoy them. Me, I enjoy ballgames played by human beings.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 25, 2007 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

still making little sense
"Me, I enjoy ballgames played by human beings"

yeah, and I enjoy living in buildings designed by architects. But I like when my architects use trigonometry, geometry, algebra, and calculus. This tends to work a hell of a lot better than living in buildings where they use angles that feel right.

Personally, I'd rather not live in an M.C. Escher lithograph. Plus, I only need one flight of stairs, thanks.

Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

This was amusing...
... but not very useful. The comparison is irrelevant.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 25, 2007 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

lmao!!
you are comparing baseball to architecture, brilliant, absolutely brilliant, "adult"
"[Barry Bonds] is the best player in the nl," Thelonius Drunk

by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sense
Um, I think he's just saying he enjoys baseball by watching it being played; others enjoy baseball by analyzing the stats generated by those plays.

I don't think your analogy makes a lot of sense, but it was funny. Also puts me in mind of a line from the Pogues' classic "London, You're a Lady":

"Your architects were madmen / your builders sane but drunk......"

Why does everybody stand up and sing "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" when they're already there? ~Larry Anderson

by JohnM on Jul 25, 2007 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Moneyball created the geek
baseball crowd, and that's fine, everyone is certainly entitled to base their judgments on whatever they like.

We can go back and forth on what can be measured and what can't, but it is a waste of time, because the philosophy is compeletely different.

The only thing I will add is this; when you look at guy's like Bobby Cox, Piniella, LaRussa, Sciocia, Torre and many others, it's not difficult to see they all value the variables that don't show up on the stat sheet.  You see it in their quotes, their lineups, the chances they take during a game (which go against the Moneyball philosophy) and the strength of their baseball people who draft, develop and trade for talent.

I don't know how others have formed their opinions, but mine was developed from playing the game at a high level, being around excellent coaching, listening to guys with success and watching and observing.

It's my opinion and clearly, I feel strongly about it. There is a chance, that I could be completely wrong, and baseball will figure this out, and every team will have a HAL 9000 making the GM decisions, and replacing the manager in the dugout.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you again.
Well stated.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 25, 2007 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did you just say...
...Tony LaRussa doesn't use stats in his chances he takes during games? Seriously?

by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You don't know how to read, do you?
He didn't say that. All he said is that LaRussa (and others) DO use variables that AREN'T on stat sheets. He never said LaRussa (and the others) DON'T use statistics, because of course they do.

But none of those managers -- nor, do I think, does any OTHER baseball manager -- simply bury himself in a stat book and only use the players who will perform the way the stat sheet says they will in every single situation, every single day.

Because such a manager would be quickly out of a job.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 25, 2007 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

LaRussa does.
My dad said so. And he's had a job for quite awhile.

by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did you read "3 Nights in August"?
If you didn't, you should. Because if you had read it, you'd know that what LaRussa does is exactly the opposite of what you say. He does use stats, but he also uses his head and his heart and his baseball instincts.

It's not only about the numbers. That's all I've been trying to say here.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 25, 2007 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How can I?
I don't know how to read. I'm such a moron I misread little comments. How could I get through a whole book?

by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Al...
... are you going to ban yourself for personal attacks like you do to others?

by big_lowitzki on Jul 26, 2007 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is that what I said?
Every manager uses stats to some degree, some more than others.  They all have their sheet which tells them how player A hits against player B, etc. etc.  Those are useful, because they tell you specifically how one person does against another, but they don't tell you how that pitcher is throwing that particular day, or whether the hitter is in a bad slump.  This is where experience and observation of what is happening in the present takes over.

The entire stat theory (sabermetrics) is wholly based on where the value is in each players stats, and also stress that bunting, stealing, squeezing etc. are strategies that are basically useless.  They base this theory in a similar fashion to a computer program that tells you when to hit and when to stay in a Blackjack game.  Problem is, your talking about human beings as the players, not a stagnant deck of cards.  All of these (successful) managers that I named, use strategies that fly in the face of Sabermetrics, and therefore, they must have some trust in the human element and the variables that are so firmly entrenched in the game.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually,
a lot of sabermetric analysis states that bunting, stealing and other old-school techniques should be used in many occurences depending on the situation.  I think I have read at least one analysis(The Book) that stated for the most part managers use these strategies at the correct rate.  

by johnny D on Jul 25, 2007 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like how you never responded to
the statement I made above, how you said I'm making things up but than I completely proved you wrong, but I guess it's hard to argue with FACTS
"Prince Fielder Dies Of Inside-The-Park Homerun" - The Onion

by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

As I said before
the adults are talking. You're better seen, not heard.
Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh, I'm so sorry to have proved
the 'Adult' wrong, you must just feel pretty stupid and can't respond cause you have no idea what you are talking about.
"Prince Fielder Dies Of Inside-The-Park Homerun" - The Onion

by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

and for the record
I have no clue which post you're talking about.

Also, the word is "then" not "than". Practice that for a while, and maybe I'll teach you cursive next year.

Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jack Haley
won a couple NBA titles with the Bulls and Spurs

must be a pretty good player right?

judging players by championships won is silly, its judging an individual player by a team statistic

by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2007 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Taking a step back
Who Theriot is and what he does seems to be beside the point, what seems to be batted around here is how much can you trust the numbers.

In baseball, we've found through history that the numbers really are the "bottom line." They're the sales figures, the how many widgets did you make... etc. But baseball does have some intagibles like "hustle," working a pitch count, hitting to the open part of the field... etc. Some of these are recorded in some teams systems but not everything.

What I see in this forum is that a good deal of folks who seem to be pointing to those latter issues, but I think also that they perceive such a noticable difference between Theriot and our former SS's that they're bound to throw extra laud and honor his way.

For what it's worth, Theriot has been a positive difference maker in the team this year. Has he been the best possible difference maker? Not hardly, but there's always room in any baseaball team to look for something more out of any player.

'07 Postseason: Bears, Bulls... Cubs?

by stelmodad on Jul 25, 2007 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Everything that happens on the field
is measured, strictly speaking; the problem is isolating the statistics for individual skills of individual players.

The runs scored by a team measures the teams offense, the runs allowed by a team measures the teams defense. The issue is how to isolate how those runs were scored and allowed.

To do an analysis of Theriot, one should analyse his defense, his baserunning, how many runs he contributes via defense and baseruning, how many runs he contributes via offense, the total runs he contributes, and compare him to other players.

visiting A's fan.

by rfloh on Jul 25, 2007 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Garbage in garbage out
They can spit out all the statisics they want, but to say those statistics represent every impact a player has, is naive at best.  That can not even come close to being done when dealing with human beings.

Of all the major sports, baseball is the least understood, because it is loaded with subjective variables.

I read Moneyball, and it was an interesting work, and I also believe statisics can ASSIST in evaluating teams and players.  But, for those that think this game can be simplified to this level are sadly mistaken.  Maybe there is a desire to do this, so people can feel they understand the game better, by simply looking at a spreadsheet.

Nothing in baseball management, can outweight the importance of the experience, instinct and levelheadedness a good baseball person brings to the table.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Loud, sustained applause!
n/t
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 25, 2007 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

hyperbole
but to say those statistics represent every impact a player has, is naive at best.

Nobody said that.

But, for those that think this game can be simplified to this level are sadly mistaken.

Nobody thinks that.

You are creating arguments to disagree with. What you are actually railing against is the people who use statistics to ASSIST them in evaluating players.

by jacob on Jul 25, 2007 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

no, I am basically saying that
My point of view (written concisely) is that while there are a few para-statistical values that influence baseball games, their impact is radically overstated (to an unbelievable degree), are mostly negligible, and cannot turn Theriot into a particularly good baseball player by somehow contradicting his clearly mediocre statistical line.

I did, however, concede that Theriot is our best shortstop option right now, and not a terrible baseball player. Guys like him and David Eckstein just aren't particularly good. Nothing more. Nothing less.

brilliant, absolutely brilliant -DTJchris complementing Thelonious Drunk for his superior baseball knowledge.

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You interpreted their argument
in a different fashion than I.  Let's just leave it at that.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe you should NOT read Moneyball?
And read some other "sabermetric" books instead? Despite the impression given by Moneyball, despite Michael Lewis' hyperbole, not all "statheads" think defense is meaningless; not all "statheads" think baserunning doesn't matter, etc.

Also, more "dynamic" sports like soccer contain far more subjective variables. In soccer you have up to 22 players are involved in the game at the same time. Baseball cannot compare. Of course, you might argue that soccer is not a "major" sport. But then that is also subjective.

visiting A's fan.

by rfloh on Jul 26, 2007 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i could be wrong
but I thought that the can't miss prospect Ronny Cedeno had something to do with that too.
AC 00 00 00 - BELIEVE

by mike on Jul 25, 2007 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ostensibly, he missed
Although it's possible that we're witnessing the very renaissance of E6 Cedeno.

Hopefully, one day I can call him "Ronny".

Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Never...
Ronnie was never a "can't miss prospect."

by big_lowitzki on Jul 26, 2007 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Brilliance
I know what the O is for. But it's Theriot's low "S" that's responsible for his low OPS.

"Theriot has a good, but far from special OBA". Agreed.

Again, I think he does everything except hit for power pretty well -- or, "good".  Including baserunning, defense at both SS and 2B, and the "O" part of OPS.  Good+Good+Good+Poor is still pretty good. Do you have another choice for starting SS (on the roster)?

Why does everybody stand up and sing "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" when they're already there? ~Larry Anderson

by JohnM on Jul 25, 2007 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

read what I've written elsewhere
Obviously, I do think he should be starting. Beggars can't be choosers, you know.
Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No...
He doesn't exactly have a high "O."  It is decent, at best.  A decent OBP and poor SLUG isn't going to get you too far.

by big_lowitzki on Jul 26, 2007 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It got David Eckstein pretty far.
n/t
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 26, 2007 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Please note that...
...with the submission of this diary and, more specifically, your use of the words "David Eckstein type" and "scrappy" as descriptive terms for one Ryan Theriot, you are hereby forbidden to use either descriptive term for the remainder of your natural life.

We appreciate your compliance and look forward to future posts.

Brew Crew: We are coming for you. (And we mean it this time.)

by dat cubfan daver on Jul 25, 2007 9:42 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Ok can I use
"Augie Ojeida type", gutsy and cute little fellow?

There is a very funny bit in the current Heckler on Theriot
and Fontenot who according the paper were thrown out of
Great America after getting into a heated arguement when they
were not allowed on the roller coaster because they failed the
height requirement.

PS I got The Riot in the BCB fantasy league

"It's the Cubbies. There's always a vibe. It's the greatest vibe in baseball." Greg Maddux on Cub fan's optimism even after the 06 debacle.

by jessica on Jul 25, 2007 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

re: Ok can I use
It has been decreed that you may use:
  • "Augie Ojeida type" - Three (3) times
  • gutsy - Two (2) times
  • cute little fellow - infinitely
Thank you for your inquiry.
Brew Crew: We are coming for you. (And we mean it this time.)

by dat cubfan daver on Jul 25, 2007 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I do find it funny
that prior to this year, all Cub fans hated Eckstein and the description of him as scrappy.  Now that the Cubs have a scrappy player, the description doesn't seem quite as bad.  

by rlpete on Jul 25, 2007 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But
He is allowed to use "fan favorite" once in front of Theriot's name.  :)

Theriot is Mark McLemore, but he can play SS defensively and maybe has a little better batting eye.  Decent but not tremendous OBP/SLG, good speed, versatility, hustle.

Now, before you go "yeah, well thanks..."  Mark McLemore played in 1832 major league baseball games across 19 seasons, although he was only a starter in 5-6 of those.   But he's also a guy who Pinella utilized extensively in Seattle, with very good results.

He's not an All-Star, he's a good role player who, if he can keep adjusting, can have an 8-10 year MLB career.

by Invalid User on Jul 25, 2007 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I see DeRosa
as this year's McLemore in terms of versatility.  I don't see Theriot having quite the same versatility as McLemore.  

Batting-wise Theriot and McLemore do have a lot of similarities.  McLemore's career line was .259/.349/.341.  As you said, a decent career.  Eckstein's career line right now is .284/.350/.360.  Theriot will likely end up somewhere around the two of these.        

by rlpete on Jul 25, 2007 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Theriot
Manufactures opportunity. True, he shouldn't have been on in the case of Rolen's error, but just the fact that he hustles and legs out every infield grounder creates a lot of opportunities. Once could argue that Rolen was going to make the error anyway. One could argue that Rolen made the error after noticing 'Riot peeling down the line like Ashton Kutcher with his scrotum on fire and lost his concentration.

One could even argue that pancakes are better serve with OJ than milk, but that's a silly argument.

I digress. He runs just as hard to first on a routine out as he does on a gapper. It's because of that hustle that opportunities are created. In the 1-run game department, opportunities are often the difference in a W or an L.

I realize today's musings have made me sound like the President of the Theriot Fan Club, so I will back off some from here on out.

:)

Florida Cubbie

"Oh, I get a little tired now and then, but knowing my lifestyle, that's only natural." -- Harry Caray

by Cribbs463 on Jul 25, 2007 10:39 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

And people wonder how I am a Cub fan.
Its incredible to me how many negative responses I could get from this diary. I have watched about every damn game this year and I dont even live in the Chicago area. For the goodness of MLB.TV and MLB Extra Innings, I have been able to watch my beloved Chicago Cubs from the Sunshine State.

But to hear some of the comments out of your mouthes just trashing a guy like Ryan Theriot is to the point of absurdness.
I could see if the guy was an all-about-me character and an on or off-the-field problem but he is not. He is about as humble as they come.

To really see the signicants of what "The Riot" brings you actually need to watch every game to see what the guy is capable of.

To the poster who said no more "David Eckstein type" or "scrappy" comparisons, if it really bothers you that bad then I won't write it but some of you find anyway to start controversy.
I thought we were all for the same team last time I checked.

Also people dont see how I am a Cubs fan because I don't wear off the usual ignorance of most Cubs fans.

If I really am going to get so much negative feedback I might as well not post any more diaries.

Thank you all who had atleast something nice to say.

Last but not least, Sweep those Cardinals, Cubs!

by CuboftheSouth15 on Jul 25, 2007 1:45 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Hey...
I'm with ya CuboftheSouth. Where in Florida are ya? I am in Lake City. Lifelong Cub fan, and I agree on Theriot. Whoever was asking for something Theriot does on the field that can't be measured statistically?

Try "hustle".

Try "heart".

Or even "guts".

I've never seen a stat measure grace under pressure.

Anyhow, good to see another Floridian here. Although I imagine judging by your email address that we aren't on the same page when it comes to college football. :)

First round is on me!

Florida Cubbie

"Oh, I get a little tired now and then, but knowing my lifestyle, that's only natural." -- Harry Caray

by Cribbs463 on Jul 25, 2007 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was joking...
...about the "David Eckstein type" and "scrappy" comparison. My point was that these descriptors have been applied so many times to Theriot that they've become cliche. Then again, maybe they're cliche only to those of us who spend too much time on the Internet reading about Ryan Theriot.

And as far as the whole stats vs. intangibles debate, I'm firmly in the middle. I respect stats and admire those who can interpret them effectively, but I, too, choose to believe there's more to baseball than an Excel spreadsheet could ever show.

I'd also point out that, as tharr's post demonstrates, one can drill down and dig up stats to defend a player just as easily as one can do so to criticize him.

That said, I think Thelonious was merely trying to add some balance to the unmitigated lovefest that was this diary, and I didn't have a problem with that. I do think it's a shame, though, that he (or anyone) turns to thinly veiled (or completely naked) insults when someone disagrees with him.

Brew Crew: We are coming for you. (And we mean it this time.)

by dat cubfan daver on Jul 25, 2007 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with you on the negativity
but I think the post on how to describe Theriot was just a joke.
One of my favorite posts on him was over at the Cub Reporter last year where someone refered to him in highly favorable terms as an insect,meaning that he lived on instinct and did it very well.

Don't let the stat heads get you down. I always remember Francona giving much of the credit for the Bosox 2004 miracle to Dave Roberts for his crucial stolen base in game 4 of the ALCS. That is how I see Theriot.

"It's the Cubbies. There's always a vibe. It's the greatest vibe in baseball." Greg Maddux on Cub fan's optimism even after the 06 debacle.

by jessica on Jul 25, 2007 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pirhana
When a team is making a run at the playoffs, they need role players. That's what Theriot is - he hustles, he slaps the ball around, it always looks like he's upbeat which adds to his clubhouse presence.

I live closer to Minneapolis than I do Chicago, so I see a lot of Twins games. Last year, the Twins had a group of role players they nicknamed "The Pirhanas." These little guys just hustled and went all out on every play and ended up really taking on the persona of that nickname. The Twins had a great second half and made it to the playoffs with those players - guys like Punto, Bartlett, Ford and Tyner. Ya, nobody's heard of those guys but they were key in a lot of those second have wins. Maybe best of all, Ozzie Guillen came up with the nickname and abolutely hated those guys.

Hopefully Theriot, Fontenot, DeRosa and dare I say Jacque (he's been getting some nice two-out RBI singles lately) can solidify their role as a group. Anybody have an idea for a nickname?

by montanacubby on Jul 25, 2007 1:48 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Pirhana
Could also be referred to as "Gnats" but I really like the idea of Pirhana.

by CuboftheSouth15 on Jul 25, 2007 2:01 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The value of Theriot
There are some who claim that Ryan is nothing but an acceptable player who claims the position because the Cubs have no acceptable alternatives. As a strong supporter of Theriot since 2005, of course I disagree. Since his stats are being used as the exclusive validation of his worth, let me point out some that show his true value.

If we recall his season slump, remember it occurred with his shift to the #8 hole. His numbers there were  .118/.211/.329. That's horrible. It's worse than horrible. However in the #2 spot, where he appears to be solidly placed the numbers are much more revealing. .328/.397/.846.

How about clutch? Some claim there is no such thing but if we are to accept stats as proof of everything, then let's see what Theriot's numbers there are. RISP .344/.433/.866. Those numbers aren't too shabby. How does he do late in the game? Innings 7-9 .310/.395/.825.

Some miscellaneous stats. He's 5th in the NL in the fewest % of pitches missed 8.8%. He's scored 44% of the times he reached base. That's 10th in the NL. He has struck out every 9.5 AB, good for 8th and has 17SB, good for 10th.

In summary, I am convinced that fair credit for the team's turnaround can be credited to Lou's insertion of Theriot in the #2 hole. The stats would seem to provide proof of that to the most skeptical observer. Aside from that, he's what most of us call a gamer.  

Josh Kroeger. Remember the name. Stay tuned for the fame.

by tharr on Jul 25, 2007 2:40 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Exactly!!!
His contributions can definitely be measured.

Now, the question is... how long will those last? And if he does have this ability to be better in these situations, why doesn't he do it all the time?

would you rather have someone who succeeds 33% of all his at-bats, or someone who succeeds in 35% of late-inning or "big" at bats and 25% the rest of the at-bats?

I'll take the former.

by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

and I can agree with that
Perhaps Theriot is better than he initially appears, and this lends credence to those of us who believe that almost everything appears statistically in some capacity.
Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've always felt
that all baseball occurrences can be measured. It's a single or caught stealing or even pitch taken. But to be able to evaluate the numbers is another huge step towards understanding. A SB with a 5 run lead is virtually meaningless. That same steal against a good pitcher/catcher combination in the 8th inning of a tie game is priceless.

My point is that the same stats have different values based upon the situation and many of the stats quoted are faceless with respect to their timing. Until stats are developed with quality points, the disagreement between numbers and guts fans will never be resolved.

Josh Kroeger. Remember the name. Stay tuned for the fame.

by tharr on Jul 25, 2007 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who knows why
athletes perform better at some times than others? Most probably it's mental. Why do some pitchers own some good batters or vice versa?

As to your choice as to which is best, a .330 hitter or a .270 hitter, the answer should be obvious. However, suppose the choice was someone who succeeded 30% of all at bats versus someone who succeeded 38% in big at bats and 25% all other times, I'd presume your choice would be different.

Josh Kroeger. Remember the name. Stay tuned for the fame.

by tharr on Jul 26, 2007 4:46 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually..
if your a Florida Gator then rock on my friend. But if your a 'Nole or a with THUG U then I will make an acception because you are a Cub.

I just like the catchy phase of Gator Bait. It was intended to be G8trBaitH8tr but it didnt go though so I was stuck with that.

Anyway I am in the St Petersburg region and I am really hoping the Cubs can make the postseason because I got tickets.

Hope to hear from you soon there, Cribbs463!

by CuboftheSouth15 on Jul 25, 2007 3:01 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Can I just add...
I am a lifelong Cubs fan. I am a Theriot fan. He may not go on the have a great career of he may go on to be the Second Coming, but right now on July 25, 2007 he is a major reason we are in a Division Race.
He plays the game the way it was meant to be played. He does whatever it takes to win. What more could any baseball fan ask for?
There is no "mancrush" just a fan of a competitive team and a competitive player.

by Tangled Up In Blue on Jul 25, 2007 3:35 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

it's funny...
that because I'm stat inclined, you assume I'm a "computer geek".

In truth, I know relatively little about computers, DID play baseball into high school, and I typically eschew numbers outside of this sport. Unfortunately, I'm interested in reality, and that lies in the numbers. For some, sabermetrics is an engaging side event for baseball fans. It doesn't excite me as much, but I feel like you simply can't have an argument about certain things without having knowledge in the statistical aspects of the game (or you can, but you end up talking out of your ass, like many of the regular posters here).

Anything that doesn't show up in some form of statistic (like whether the player is getting any from his wife, or whether his thighs are chapped from running too much) likely has a minimal effect at best. At any rate, you can't rationalize this magical world of mysterious data and turn Ryan Theriot into a great baseball player from what his stat line shows. Obviously, the fact that he's been far better than advertised defensively, and he's been good situationally are mitigating factors (still stats, by the way), but he just isn't very good.

Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 3:39 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

No one's saying Theriot is "great".
What IS being said is that there are aspects to his game that make him useful, beyond his stat line.

You said something interesting:

"For some, sabermetrics is an engaging side event for baseball fans."

Absolutely true. It is for me, in fact. If anyone here thinks I don't know what the advanced numbers are, I surely do, and have for longer than most, since I was a reader of Bill James' original abstracts.

You said "side event". I have a problem with people who think sabermetrics is the be-all and end-all of analyzing baseball, leaving no room for anything else. Note that I am NOT accusing you of being such a person; however, there are quite a few such people.

Sabermetrics is a tool. Used properly, it can be of great help. Used improperly, it can tell you things that are simply false.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 25, 2007 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's the thing...
Tharr just pointed out some of the best ways he's been useful. It's stuff that's extremely evident on a stat sheet.

Taken as a whole? Theriot's line doesn't look great, and it doesn't explain his impact. But if you take those situational stats, he looks very good. Why can't you acknowledge this?

by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Which was exactly my point.
Use sabermetrics as a simple tool, not as a sledgehammer.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 25, 2007 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dude.
I'm still looking only stats. I'm just looking at more than one.

Stats explain everything relevant in baseball. To be able to say that, I need to understand there is more than one stat.

The C&L stats and such help explain what Theriot has done. Even sabremetric people can look at stats and only stats and show why he's been valuable.

The problem is, it's unsustainable. David Eckstein had some great moments in WS. And they can ALL be measured statistically. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

The question, though, is to also figure out what might happen in the future. Will David Eckstein make the same big plays? Will Ryan Theriot continue to perform at such a high level? Where do you put your money?

Everything relevant in winning baseball is statistically measurable. It's a fact.

I like Theriot. He's provided a lot of great moments for me as watched the most Cubs games in my life since I was 10 years old. He's been exciting. The problem is, if it came down to him and Carlos Guillen, I know what trade I'd make. Ryan and A-Rod? Theriot and Jeter? Theriot and about 15-20 other SS?

I want to win a World Series. The Cardinals showed there's a lot of chance involved. There's a lot of shortstops in the majors that would give the Cubs a better chance to win than Theriot. As I said, it's a fact.

by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not how much, it's when
a player does something that matters most.  There are certain key parts of a ballgame, where the momentum can turn your way or you can get buried.  I don't care what a guy does when my team is up or down by 6 runs, I care what he does when the game is on the line.  The reason for this is very simple, doing the right things at the right time, effects the entire complexion of the game, and also boosts your teamates.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Answer
It's someone getting "big hits" in the first, second, third innings... whatever.

by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Has anyone ever noticed how
entire teams can go into slumps at the same time, or the exact opposite, everybody starts to hit at the sametime?

If you rely purely on stats, you should conclude that 9 guys in the lineup should not get hot, or cold all at the sametime, but it happens often during a season.  Why is that?  It's directly related to the human element of the game, which shows up in a term we call momentum.  Ever hear people say hitting is contagious, or that player brings energy to a team that is contagious?  Well, from my experience, it is a fact that you feed on what other players do and how they play the game.

Some teams appear to have the ability to scratch something out of nothing, and those 10-12 games you win when you are not playing your best, could be the difference between making the playoffs or finishing 4th.  The vast majority of good teams have a couple "scrappy" type players, that may not have the best statisics, but they have a way of pulling their team up a notch when they need it.  To me, Theriot is the type of player that is useful beyond his statisics, because I think he has a positive effect on his teamates.  Can you measure it, hell no, but some players have it and others don't.

The blend of skills you have on a team is what is important, not just the pure talent level you have, because your team is capable of beating others in multiple ways.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Contagious you are right.
So far atleast we dont have any "Cancers" in the clubhouse.

by CuboftheSouth15 on Jul 25, 2007 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't subscribe to the cancer in the clubhouse
theory of killing a team as much as other people.  Let's look at Barrett; it probably got to the point where the pitching staff didn't care for the guy, but the reason they didn't is because the guy couldn't catch worth a damn.

Many teams have won and won big with guys not getting along, but not too many win when those guys they may not like, play like crap on the field.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's a gross misrepresentation.
If you rely purely on stats, you should conclude that 9 guys in the lineup should not get hot, or cold all at the sametime, but it happens often during a season.  Why is that?

That doesn't make any sense at all. Explain why one should conclude that.

by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He is a starter in major league Baseball
which has some of the best players in the world. Even if he is the worst starting SS in the league, which I do not believe he is, he is still a starting SS in the majors. he has to be somewhat good at this game.

by NIUcubbie on Jul 25, 2007 3:46 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Obviously, we're talking in relative terms here
Otherwise, I could go watch a little league game, and (if I had a kid) conversations might go a little something like this:

"Say, Bill. Your son is really fucking terrible. I noticed he isn't playing in the MLB"

"Thanks Frank. I can see that your son is completely shitty as well"

"Thanks buddy. I'll be sure to forward that complement. I'd say that, together, our sons make one shitty double play combo".

"I hear ya man. They aren't even as good as Neifi Perez. They really are a disgrace to the little leagues"

"Man, you should have seen how embarrassing my son was in T ball"

Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

so your comparing the skills it takes
to be on a little league team to those it takes to be in the MLB. Ok now it clear Riot is borderline garbage.

by NIUcubbie on Jul 25, 2007 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like how the "Adult"
copied the non-Adult, thanks, you made me happy :)
"[Barry Bonds] is the best player in the nl," Thelonius Drunk

by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

adults need to respect the young and naive
to give them confidence. When you make me crappy drawings in school, don't I always post them on the fridge?
brilliant, absolutely brilliant -DTJchris complementing Thelonious Drunk for his superior baseball knowledge.

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

you didn't just put my crappy
drawing on the fridge, you made one of your own.  You know, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
"[Barry Bonds] is the best player in the nl," Thelonius Drunk

by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

you're really reaching now
run out of your 'A' material, did you?

Look on the bright side. I'm sure you could probably write for Leno.

brilliant, absolutely brilliant -DTJchris complementing Thelonious Drunk for his superior baseball knowledge.

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Would rather write for Conan
but even so, writing for Leno brings in more cash, so thanks for another compliment.  You sure are swell mister...
"[Barry Bonds] is the best player in the nl," Thelonius Drunk

by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Zambrano being a "Cancer"....
I could see how some people could make a case of Zambrano being a "Cancer" but I see the only one who was a "Cancer" is gone now.

Which would be Michael Barrett.

by CuboftheSouth15 on Jul 25, 2007 4:09 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Big Z is definitely not a Cancer...
...he's a Gemini. Born June 1, 1981.
Brew Crew: We are coming for you. (And we mean it this time.)

by dat cubfan daver on Jul 25, 2007 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

well played
brilliant, absolutely brilliant -DTJchris complementing Thelonious Drunk for his superior baseball knowledge.

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Year of the rooster
where I come from. One proud Moda born in the cock year
GREAT SUCCESS!!!

by Chitown Mojo on Jul 25, 2007 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

someday that'll be the title of my revue album
The Cock Years. Thelonious Drunk sings your favorite  hits from yesteryear. With DTJchris on the triangle and a solo on the cowbell.
brilliant, absolutely brilliant -DTJchris complementing Thelonious Drunk for his superior baseball knowledge.

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sounds like some yesteryears
you've had. The other monk had the columbia years, you have the cock years, I just wanna jack off on top of the empire state
GREAT SUCCESS!!!

by Chitown Mojo on Jul 25, 2007 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh wait...
Last sentence, wrong window. Please pardon the disclosure.
GREAT SUCCESS!!!

by Chitown Mojo on Jul 25, 2007 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

and that will forever be known in NYC as...
"The Day it Rained Sadness"
brilliant, absolutely brilliant -DTJchris complementing Thelonious Drunk for his superior baseball knowledge.

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

you're a fan of the monk, are you?
brilliant, absolutely brilliant -DTJchris complementing Thelonious Drunk for his superior baseball knowledge.

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I get to be on the Cowbell!
I need more cowbell baby!
"[Barry Bonds] is the best player in the nl," Thelonius Drunk

by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

On the other hand...
I am a cancer.
"I don't talk. I just let what I do talk for myself." -Johan Santana

by sparkles721 on Jul 25, 2007 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Me too!
n/t

by Scott on Jul 25, 2007 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thats amazing. what an incredible coincidence
I'm a scorpio. Seems like a cosmic connection here.
brilliant, absolutely brilliant -DTJchris complementing Thelonious Drunk for his superior baseball knowledge.

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No your not a cancer Sparkles
I mean you might be a little wound up at times but I don't think
you are cancer now Todd Walker he was a cancer.

Ok just kidding

I am actually on the Gemeni/Cancer cusp so it depends on the
listing.

"It's the Cubbies. There's always a vibe. It's the greatest vibe in baseball." Greg Maddux on Cub fan's optimism even after the 06 debacle.

by jessica on Jul 25, 2007 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh a Gemini I see.
Thank you dat cubfan daver I actually found it assuming. By the way, I was trying to argue with you earlier on a post of mine stating about the comparsions with Theriot. I was trying to refer to everyone else at the same time how people just look for problems.

I understand where your coming from though with the comparsions though.

by CuboftheSouth15 on Jul 25, 2007 4:19 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Yikes...
What a thread!

I do believe that athletes carry with them a certain set of intangibles; I believe leadership, desire, and effort can be quite infectious and generally support a team, but at some point things boil down to statistics.

Has Theriot made us a better team this year? Yes. But what were the alternatives? Izturis? Of course Theriot has proved valuable this year, but his impact might be minimal if we had another suitable alternative.

You do need a functional clubhouse to succeed in most sports, but I believe that this is least applicable to baseball, where the game is always broken down to individual performances. I loathe the numerous Kendall comments I read that say: "I like him. He calls a good game. He provides leadership."

How the hell would we know who's scoring the edge in intangibles? How do you measure the team's leaders? How do you measure effort? By an opinion that Theriot 'just seems to hustle a lot'? By the same argument, I would then assume that A-Ram numbers aren't quite as good as they suggest, simply because it 'doesn't always look like he's trying.'

I loved rlpete's point above that says something along the lines of this: "Everybody hated Eckstein when he was winning with the Cards and thought the term scrappy was the dumbest adjective in baseball. Now, the tides have turned and Theriot is scrappy and sweating intangibles."

He's been good for the team people, but he ain't that great.

MARQUIS! YES, MARQUIS!

by thekansasian on Jul 25, 2007 4:28 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

You said...
... "How the hell would we know who's scoring the edge in intangibles? How do you measure the team's leaders? How do you measure effort?"

You can't measure those things, so don't try. All I've been trying to say is that BOTH statistical measures AND intangibles help teams win.

I hope ALL of us can agree on that.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 25, 2007 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like Theriot
and I like that the Cubs are winning games.

Call me ignorant, condescend and say that the adults are talking or what have you.

Perhaps the statistics aren't good enough with Theriot for some, but who cares. The kid plays well enough for me, and evidently he plays well enough for some others as well.

Obviously there are some vastly different opinions about this kid. In reading through this though forum I think that some folks care more so more about "winning" an argument than baseball or whether or not Theriot honestly contributes to wins.

BTW, there's another game tonight. If we're not all too busy here belittling one another here we may want to enjoy two great clubs go at it.

'07 Postseason: Bears, Bulls... Cubs?

by stelmodad on Jul 25, 2007 4:58 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

you're ignorant
the adults are talking

what have you

brilliant, absolutely brilliant -DTJchris complementing Thelonious Drunk for his superior baseball knowledge.

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dont you have a job or something
You have been arguing with people since 9 AM. Dont you have some numbers to crunch or a life to live.

by NIUcubbie on Jul 25, 2007 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

aren't you a student?
I took the day off, actually.
brilliant, absolutely brilliant -DTJchris complementing Thelonious Drunk for his superior baseball knowledge.

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

a day off?
all those trash cans aren't going to be picked through on their own Thenlonius...
"[Barry Bonds] is the best player in the nl," Thelonius Drunk

by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

more vindictive than creative
but if you really want to go there, I'll join in. I'm clearly better at this than you.
brilliant, absolutely brilliant -DTJchris complementing Thelonious Drunk for his superior baseball knowledge.

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"I'm clearly better at this than you"
is your remark?  Yeah, you clearly are better at this then myself, and it comes through with your incredibly clever "you are ignorant" posts you make.  Kudos, you have clearly shown you are a worthy adversary.  

Oh, and by the way, you must know SO much about baseball, than how can you make clearly wrong statements that Bonds is the best player in baseball and then magically forget you even said it?

"[Barry Bonds] is the best player in the nl," Thelonius Drunk

by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

oops, I meant nl, I was wrong
unlike some people, I can admit when I am wrong...
"[Barry Bonds] is the best player in the nl," Thelonius Drunk

by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 6:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

my favorite part about you
is that you put my comment about barry bonds in your signature as if it were comical.

Two words: you are incredibly clueless about baseball.

brilliant, absolutely brilliant -DTJchris complementing Thelonious Drunk for his superior baseball knowledge.

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

good observation I am a student
but theres this thing between semesters Called summer break.

by NIUcubbie on Jul 25, 2007 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

quite the douche bag, hmm?
I can see you're concerned about my well being, so I'll indulge you:

I'm a senior in college. I have a job (sorry to disappoint you), and I took the week off to have surgery. Thanks for your concern.

brilliant, absolutely brilliant -DTJchris complementing Thelonious Drunk for his superior baseball knowledge.

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

glad to know you have a good life.
no need for name calling however. Your real good with the smart comments just thought I would get in the fun.

by NIUcubbie on Jul 25, 2007 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

sorry
brilliant, absolutely brilliant -DTJchris complementing Thelonious Drunk for his superior baseball knowledge.

by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did the surgery thing a month ago, no fun.
Not sure NIUcubbie was trying to vent, but perhaps he was. I think nerves have gotten a bit close to the surface in this thread. We could all likely use a break from it all.

You've got valid points in many of your posts but I think most of them get lost in the confrontations. I'm a bit older and apathetic to most crap so most of this stuff rolls off so I'm not going to villify you here.

Hope the post-op goes well. Peace.

'07 Postseason: Bears, Bulls... Cubs?

by stelmodad on Jul 25, 2007 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can't say I am surprised.....
...a college senior, with drunk in his screen name.  Yes, the good ole days, I remember them well.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 11:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

see, you do have a sense of humor
:)
'07 Postseason: Bears, Bulls... Cubs?

by stelmodad on Jul 25, 2007 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hope everything goes right for you.
Hey there Thelonious Drunk I hope all of your surgery goes well and is much success. God Bless you and the Chicago Cubs.

by CuboftheSouth15 on Jul 25, 2007 6:01 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Roman Catholic prayers and well wishes all around
Still know I could drink your ass under the table TD ...couldn't hold a candle to Barry with that 'clear' however..........

by Cajuncub on Jul 25, 2007 10:43 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

back to ryan theriot
No, he's never going to go to the all star game, or be up for the MVP, but all winning teams need role players, and he plays his role well.  He is a nice fit in the two hole, giving us good speed and a solid eye, with the ability to fight pitches off and let the rest of the team see what kind of stuff a pitcher has on any given day.  His batting avg. is a little above avg. and he makes things happen on the field.  Im more on the "stats tell the story" side, but one example of stats not telling the story is when Theriot went from first to home on Fontenots bunt a while back.  He seems to have a knack for making things happen, and I think he does a great job at playing his role, and thats something every winning team needs.
Big Z on Cuban: "Plus, I can be signed by him. You know, I know he has the money for me. Hopefully he can buy the Cubs."

by kylejo on Jul 26, 2007 12:18 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Oy!
This is one whacky thread.  I am more towards the center with a little more leaning towards statistics as a better way of measuring worth.  I like Theriot and I value his work ethic and this is something that I've observed over time.  He gives everything that he's got and continuously reaches back for more.  He's a "blue collar" guy and yes there is room for someone like that on a winning ball club.

I think many of us project a little of ourselves into a person like Theriot and we are naturally drawn to his play because inevitably it has produced results that are both observed AND measureable.  I don't know if there would be this same kind of love from the fan base if he was hitting .230/.290/.320 though?  I tend to think that it would be doubtful for all this fan love if he wasn't at least doing a decent job. (And he is doing a decent job by the way.)

On the other hand, Theriot's success added to his work ethic might make for some good team chemistry which I am willing to buy into by the way.  Sandberg observed Dawson and how "hard he worked every day" and inevitably Sandberg raised his game to an all new level after Dawson's arrival.  Does Theriot's work ethic rub off on others?  I don't know but it is quite possible.  Does make Cliff Floyd want to chug, chug, chug all the way home or hustle to beat out a base hit?  Does it make Jacque Jones want to elevate his game now that he's been handed the every day CF job by DEFAULT?  I hope so.  I do know that a good work ethic rubs off on people and high productivity is the result at least in my field of manufacturing - especially when a manager figuratively punches an underachieving/talented worker in the gut with productivity facts.  So, I would guess that this would be something that translates into the baseball world as well.

On my third hand, I agree that there are probably 18-20 MLB shortstops right now that are statistically better than Theriot as well.  My stance on Theriot is simply this though - there are more pressing needs to address on this team than whether or not Theriot is a good fit as the every day SS - short or long term.  (How about the situation where our millionaire RF who currently plays CF against RH pitching only and is hitting no better than Theriot in all aspects of the game?)

Don't get me wrong, I'm thrilled that Jacque is helping the Cub win ball games lately but I'm not going to be lulled into thinking that this will last the rest of the season.  Jones has serious swing flaws and any pitcher with good command can easily get him out high and tight (ground ball to the right side) or low and away (strike three) on any given day.  He's had a couple of good raps to the LF alley on pitchers' mistakes and he's had a couple of ground balls find holes too but let's not lull ourselves into thinking that this short run of success is sustainable.

The iron for trading Jones by the deadline is finally glowing a little bit brighter lately and the time to execute this trade is right now.  I do not want to see the Cubs on the hook for another year of Jones in CF or even RF for that matter.  That's what really needs to change between now and July 31st and I hope that it happens.  I root for Pie in CF and trade for an upgrade in the pen or a RH bat RF.

There's always next year.

by BJ Simpson on Jul 26, 2007 5:57 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Bleed Cubbie Blue, the Chicago Cubs blog for the SB Nation, created on February 9, 2005 by Al Yellon
Start posting about the Cubs »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
Reversal of opinion...Bradley will not be moved
P272649reg_small
VERY OT: The BT Football, "Congrats to ballhawk" & "Sorry, sue369" Thread
Yelloncard_small
Baseball Picture Puzzles Overflow 1
Derrick_rose_poster_by_rokasm_small
You know you want him, Get it done Jim!
Yelloncard_small
Baseball Player Picture Puzzles

Recent FanPosts

Dscn2381_small
Cubs 2010 2B and "the L word"
Cubswin712_small
Is there anyway we trade some of our high-priced players?
Yelloncard_small
Milton Bradley Named NL "LVP" By Joe Posnanski
Self-portrait-4_small
Crazy Idea: Rob Quinlan
10424_528302137858_173702948_31567344_967269_n_small
OT: Big Ten Football Thread, Nov. 21
Small
Grabow to sign
Small
SI archive story on Sandberg and Salaries
Small
OT -- Head to Evanston to Root on Northwestern -- 11/21 v. Wisconsin
Dscn2381_small
On Harden and the Players Jim Hendry Lets Go

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recommended FanShots

FanGraphs calls Grabow a "waste of cash."
Fangraphs hasn't given up on Geo, should you?
Baseball America's Top 10 Cubs Prospects
An animated tribute to the no-hitter that Pirates pitcher Dock Ellis threw on June 12, 1970. Simply...

Recent FanShots

A Chicagoan, Part Of Cardinals Ownership Group, Dies
Making Fun Of Tim Lincecum's Hair...
Would you blow up the farm system for Halladay?
Minor League Ball Interview With Billy Beane
Castillo Rumor Won't Go Away
Minor League FA's
The Cubs Debut of Turk Wendell: A Cautionary Tale Of Classic Cubs History
Slightly OT re: Cards
Lincecum wins NL Cy Young
Kansas City Royals new alt cap, to be worn during home day games. My verdict: ugly. Details here.

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

It Is Only...

Cubs By The Numbers

Cubs By The Numbers is a history of the ballclub by uniform number, but the biographies help trace the history of our beloved team in a new way. For everyone who's a Cubs fan, anyone who ever wore the uniform is like family. Cubs By The Numbers reintroduces readers to some of their long-lost ancestors, even ones they think they already know.

Click here to order your copy, available now!

SPONSORS

Recent Stories in Ticket Exchanges

Yelloncard_small
Ticket Exchanges: Cubs Convention 2010
Yelloncard_small
Ticket Exchanges: General 2009 Ticket Exchange
Yelloncard_small
Ticket Exchanges: September 29-October 4 Homestand

Managing Editor

Yelloncard_small Al

Editorial Cartoonist

Toonmike_small toonmike

Contributors

Dsc_0139_small holy mackerel

100px-boisehawkscaplogo_small Josh77

Small shawndgoldman