Ryan Theriot becoming a favorite of mine.
Ryan Theriot seems to find someway to impress me each and every game and it all starts with the little things. Ryan doesn't try to be the "hero" everytime he approachs the plate. Instead the man trys to find anyway he can possibly get on base.
First off, we all know that Theriot is going to be the last guy of resort towards power and he even knows that himself. Theriot reminds me of a David Eckstein type though. You know the scrappy type of player that does the little things such as getting on base, stealing bases, setting up possible runs, and making contact.
Ryan has an excellent glove by the way and I just think that it might be time to part with Ronny Cedeno via trade and stick to having Ryan Theriot as are everyday shortstop. The guy comes to play everyday and he might not stick out huge on the boxscore at the end of the game but if you take the time too just watch the way that he plays his game you will understand where I am coming from.
I don't know if any of you realize the way he has started such rallies with just making contact and not trying to hit the damn ball over the fence everytime he gets up.
For example, If you didn't watch tonights game against St. Louis
Ryan Theriot did pretty much what I stated about him. In the top of the seventh with 2 outs and nobody on, Theriot just makes contact and just happens to be hit towards Gold Glover 3rd Baseman Scott Rolen.
A rare error occuring by Rolen ends up continuing the 7th and he ends up coming around to score on an Aramis Ramirez 2 out single to make it 3-2 now.
Last, to go into the top of the ninth with two outs again, Theriot drawls a walk. Now with him on first base he decides to steal second and has converted 17 out of 20 times on the year for stolen bases. With that he set up a chance to go up by two and with the scrappy play of Theriot it turned up to be huge.
Derek Lee ended up connecting on a two out single which allowed Theriot to score and now the Cubs be up against the Cardinals 4-2.
With that run it turned out to be monumental towards the outcome of the game and the Cubs ended up winning 4-3 with the almighty Albert Pujols grounding out to...
RYAN THERIOT!
Obviously, Ryan makes a great number two hitter and possibly a leadoff hitter. Personally I would rather see him leading off with Alfonso Soriano batting second because I like to see a number two hitter with power.
I just love the way the guy plays because of his desire to be on the field and the way he hustles on every play.
Feel free to comment as I am anxious to know what my fellow Cubs fans think.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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182 comments
Comments
I don't think there's much debate
To provide some debate, I'll nitpick and say that you can't use the 7th inning error to support the case that Theriot does whatever he can to get on base. It was an error. He should not have got on base and he only did because Rolen let it happen. Now, you could argue that Theriot is a great guy to have that happen to - because of his speed and his smart baserunning, helping get him around from first to home eventually. But you can't credit him for getting from home to first.
But this is half-hearted debate. I agree - Ryan is The Riot.
by JohnM on Jul 25, 2007 4:28 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
A-ROD??
by roach on Jul 25, 2007 4:30 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Theriot at Short
Fontenot on 2b
by Laven on Jul 25, 2007 7:30 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
For the Riot fans
www.addisonstation.com
Good Riot wear.
by Kinky Reggae on Jul 25, 2007 8:13 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Theriot well grounded in the fundamentals
by Cajuncub on Jul 25, 2007 8:16 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
not a straight up this or that guy
Other than that competition is great for both players.
by Ivy Walls on Jul 25, 2007 8:31 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah
Theriot's OPS is under .700, making him one of the most overrated baseball players by some people on this site. He really isn't very good.
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 9:19 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
However...
And don't say he didn't contribute or that he wasn't one of the biggest reasons for both of them, because he was.
by Al on Jul 25, 2007 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And wasn't Eckstein the World Series MVP?
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 25, 2007 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure he's overrated, just unexpected
I might agree that maybe he's getting a bit too much adulation but he's getting the job done at a position that we've been deficient at for too long.
by stelmodad on Jul 25, 2007 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
re: yeah
Granted, Ryan did go through a cold spell of sorts in the last month or so (around the time Fontenot got so hot). But it seems to me, overall, he has been pretty good at baseball.
He works counts, he steals bases, he scores runs, he fields his position adequately -- and, overall, it seems like he's done this with pretty good consistency since coming to the Cubs late last season.
I realize the guy has shortcomings, but I admire what he's done for this team.
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 25, 2007 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Loud sustained applause
Theriot is the kind of player I have seen elsewhere (Lenny Dykstra, Eckstein) but haven't seen on the Cubs much in recent years. A scrappy, hustling athlete who would run over his own mother to score a run.
by danimal15 on Jul 25, 2007 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And...
Sorry, statheads, but sometimes that's a fact.
by Al on Jul 25, 2007 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, I guess if you declare it a fact
I'm not even going to bother arguing with you, because you obviously don't want to understand statistics (proven by some of the baseless arguments above). Maybe if Theriot had a DECENT stat line I could agree with your completely unscientific gut assessment that Theriot's value doesn't show up in the box score, but (aside from his sb%) the stats he's put up have been nothing short of terrible. I do agree that he IS probably better than his stats indicate (because his stats indicate a Cedenoan (c. 2006) type year), but that doesn't mean he isn't still bad. Lucky for him, he's still much better than Izturis was, and hence he's currently our best option at SS (and made the Izturis trade possible).
And yes, I am saying right here, right now that david eckstein is a shitty baseball player, and his contributions to the cardinals are grossly overstated by you in your post above. The fact that he was world series MVP is essentially irrelevant when assessing his worth as a baseball player: Neifi Perez hit near 400 in his first month or so with the cubs. Even crappy baseball players have the ability to put up impressive numbers over short periods. Besides, the Cubs haven't had a need for a world series mvp in like one or 70 years, wouldn't you say?
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
fact?
Pretty loose use of the word fact there. Since you cannot prove that his contributions to the team exist outside his stat line those contributions are not facts. They are your perceptions.
Differentiating fact from perception is a pretty important player evaluation tool.
by jacob on Jul 25, 2007 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks!
That's the kind of athleticism Ryan Theriot brings to the game of baseball.
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 25, 2007 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Theriot is a baseball player
by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what the hell are you talking about?
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baseball skills vs physical skills
by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and I suppose...
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
But hey, whatever blows your dress up.
by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
good baseball players
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mancrush?
by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
who on sports talk radio thinks that?
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So
by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is just a bullshit statement
Your argument still has nothing to do with Ryan Theriot. If anything, he obviously has LESS baseball specific skill than the players that are....uh.....skilled.
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are free to think of it however you like
by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks for the permission
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't do it for everyone
by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't let the Drunk get to ya
by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
funny, I think you just made that up
A Rod has been the best player in baseball this year.
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oops, my bad
"but he has clearly been the best player in the nl"
is your exact statemet, not "most potent offensive force" but "best player in the nl".
by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OPS
He does almost everything else pretty well. None of them great, but all pretty well. Certainly better -- and that is the point of the poll I think -- than the other current option at SS. (I think Cedeno is the only other real option.)
by JohnM on Jul 25, 2007 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
brilliant
ON BASE plus slugging
In fact, OBA is weighted more than slugging in the most current metrics. Theriot has a good, but far from special OBA around 340. If he was getting on at a .380 clip, I wouldn't be having this discussion. His complete lack of slugging ability makes getting on base paramount.
And the reason OPS is important, is because team OPS correlates strongly with winning (taken independantly from pitching, of course). Why is it so hard for you traditionalists to connect the dots...high team OPS = wins. therefore players with high OPS = good.
Again, I do see the benefit of having high energy guys like Theriot (or gamers, or whatever the hell you want to call him), but his statistics have been so poor, that his "energy" doesn't make up the difference.
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Theriot's OPS+ of 83
FWIW, metrics like UZR by MGL seem to consider Theriot as a good defender:
Name, Retrosheet ID, Position ,Team, Chances (Outs an average fielder would make), Range Runs,Error runs,Total Runs,Defensive Games, Runs per 150
"Theriot, Ryan",therr001,6,chn,64, 5,1,5,24,34
For comparison, Adam Everett:
"Everett, Adam",evera001,6,hou,128,11,0,11,49,35
Derek Jeter:
"Jeter, Derek",jeted001,6,nya,214,-14,1,-13,82,-24
Miguel Tejada:
"Tejada, Miguel",tejam001,6,bal,168,-1,3,1,64,3
By UZR, over 150 games, Theriot is 58 runs better than Derek Jeter defensively, and 31 runs better than Miguel Tejada.
BPro's defensive metrics, which are less reliable than UZR, also believe that Theriot is a good defender: Runs Above Average of 3 in 46 games at SS, RATE of 108.
by rfloh on Jul 25, 2007 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What are you thinking?!
oh, that's a sarcastic statement by the way...
by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the adults are talking
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
furthermore
I do, however, object strongly to those here who think Theriot is an offensive force because he steals bases and provides energy. Any offensive metric you care to choose points to a BAD offensive player (hell, even bis batting average...the least statty offensive stat there is....points to a mediocre player).
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously
by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes
Whether anyone out there understands how to decipher a given stat is irrelevant. The fact remains that almost everything in baseball shows up in some statistical form. The great challenge lies in deciphering meaning from copious data.
I don't get why this is so hard to understand. Everything that happens in a baseball game/season plays out like a massive computer program. Every event has a cause and effect. Winning depends on the outcome of numerous variables, causes and effects, and represents a macro-scale interaction between players on the same team, and players from opposing teams. As a result, every variable necessarily shows up in some statistical form.
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's all I needed to know
by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
The simple fact is, and you, MPH73, having played the game, know that is simply not true. There are things about winning baseball that cannot be measured on a stat sheet. Period. That is a fact, and it is incontrovertible.
For Thelonious to call people names and use profanity in trying to explain his position is just plain wrong. We can disagree about things, but the fact is, baseball is played by human beings on a field, not by computers. Until it's played by robots, there will be things that win games that do not show up in any "metrics", advanced or not.
Finally, many of you who quote statistics to back up your positions ad nauseum are using stats as an end in themselves. That's just plain wrong.
But you go right ahead. David Eckstein may be a statistically crappy player. But he helped two teams win World Series by things he did on the field. That is a fact. And someday Ryan Theriot may do the very same thing.
I'm finished arguing about this.
by Al on Jul 25, 2007 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
as you say, "loud sustained applause"
Give me a grizzled old baseball vet that has been in the game for his entire life over a computer geek who's never seen a game in his life any day for determining a player's worth. And I'm not calling anyone here names or making any judgements on anybody on this board when I say that.
by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gary Hughes convinced Jimbo....
by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's he played?
by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, 6 games do determine
by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you two will allow us, then...
You'll allow us to revisit this at the end of the year then?
by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not a devout stathead
That said, the idea that you think you can look at Theriot on the field and have a clue as to what unmeasurable factors he brings to the table that really help a team is absurd. You are making an argument based on what you think you see the hour or so that Theriot is actually on the field.
It's an argument that you can rehash ad nauseum (as you do with your claim that Damian Miller was responsible for the 2003 NL Central Title), but it's an argument that cannot be backed up in any reasonable fashion. It's you making up what you think the impact of a player like Theriot or Eckstein has. When people respond with stats, you pronounce that stats don't prove anything. But the only other option is for people to say that they have a better way of measuring immeasurables than you do. Those kind of arguments are great for elementary school, but hardly make for good adult baseball discussion.
by Porfi on Jul 25, 2007 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well said
I've been trying to say exactly that for quite a while here. The thing that consistently drives me nuts is the ends justify the means mentality.
It's used all the time here.
Eckstein is good cause the cardinals won the world series. A pitcher pitched well cause the team won the game. A hitter hit well cause his base hit came with men on base, etc, etc, etc.
It's just an entirely flawed attempt at reasoning. Luckily this is just baseball and nobody gets hurt. The worst that happens is a 96 million dollar team loses 96 games. Outside of baseball that kind of thinking is dangerous.
by jacob on Jul 25, 2007 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nominated!!!
Did you guys see how Eckstein hit that lazy pop fly to left-center where he knew the grass had been over-watered and Curtis Granderson would slip? Thus making it a big run-producing double than turned the game. It was Theriot-like.
Or how he willed his teammates to hit those bunts and weak grounders back to pitchers and then made them commit a number of errors? That's amazing.
I ask you to please name 3 things Theriot does, things that can't be measured in stats, that help his team win.
by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's exactly the point.
But if something on the field happens that exemplifies this, it can easily be noted at the time that it does. It's called "doing the little things".
You may not be able to measure it, but managers notice. Teammates notice. And opponents notice.
by Al on Jul 25, 2007 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
YOU DARN WELL CAN MEASURE IT!!!
I notice those things, too, Al. But ya know what? I also notice when he K's in the last at-bat of the game. Or when he goes in a slump. Or when he gets lucky because one of the best 3B in the game makes an error.
I like theriot. He doesn't try to do more than he can. He plays to his strengths to minimize his weaknesses. But he's not that good of a player. There are probably 20-25 SS I'd rather have than him.
Aramis Ramirez doesn't hustle. He doesn't come to play every day. He has no plate discipline. Until this year, he was an average defender, at best.
You take 8 of the former. I'll take 8 of the latter. Who wins?
by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know damn well..
I'll take people who perform on the field in various different ways, whether it's a Ramirez hitting home runs, or a Theriot hustling. Takes all types.
You go right ahead and put together a "team" of players who have good statistics. They'll look great on paper, and they might suck on the field.
If I have to explain the reasons why this is so, maybe you shouldn't be a baseball fan.
by Al on Jul 25, 2007 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now you're telling me what fan I can be?
You don't have to explain this, because I understand what factor luck plays into baseball. Apparently, you don't believe in luck?
And what's the quotes around "team" for?
It's rather unfortunate that someone who has such a popular baseball site really doesn't understand the game at all. It's sad. I feel sorry for the people who come her for knowledge and get sucked into lesser understanding than what they originally had.
If you don't get that, maybe you should do more movie reviews.
by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand the game at all?
Now go on back to one of the stat geek sites, where you can all congratulate each other on how statistically smart you are. Enjoy yourselves.
by Al on Jul 25, 2007 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My point proven...
And the "you don't know baseball" thing was basically just a repeat of what you said to me. It doesn't feel good, does it?
by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is Al at his most ignorant
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nor is it worth my time...
Knock it off.
by Al on Jul 25, 2007 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm hardly calling you names
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When you say "baseless statements"...
I just got finished saying that the value of a certain player, in some cases, cannot be measured by numbers on a spreadsheet.
That is, in truth, an incontrovertible fact. You cannot disprove my statement. Thus to call it "ignorant", is, in fact, wrong.
I could say it's "ignorant", but I choose not to.
by Al on Jul 25, 2007 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can even say...
"doing the little things" What are those little things? How can you say they exist if you don't even know what they are? I know what a friggin' unicorn is. I could at least describe it to you.
You're just saying these things to get your site hits up. I'm convinced of it.
by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're so full of it....
Nothing could be further from the truth; however, how I do make money from this site is none of your business.
This is the last thing I will EVER say on this topic.
About the other thing you mention, yes, "little things" that are not measurable on stat sheets can win baseball games. Can I quantify what they are? No, I can't.
Go on back to your spreadsheets. Hope you enjoy them. Me, I enjoy ballgames played by human beings.
by Al on Jul 25, 2007 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
still making little sense
yeah, and I enjoy living in buildings designed by architects. But I like when my architects use trigonometry, geometry, algebra, and calculus. This tends to work a hell of a lot better than living in buildings where they use angles that feel right.
Personally, I'd rather not live in an M.C. Escher lithograph. Plus, I only need one flight of stairs, thanks.
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This was amusing...
by Al on Jul 25, 2007 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sense
I don't think your analogy makes a lot of sense, but it was funny. Also puts me in mind of a line from the Pogues' classic "London, You're a Lady":
"Your architects were madmen / your builders sane but drunk......"
by JohnM on Jul 25, 2007 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moneyball created the geek
We can go back and forth on what can be measured and what can't, but it is a waste of time, because the philosophy is compeletely different.
The only thing I will add is this; when you look at guy's like Bobby Cox, Piniella, LaRussa, Sciocia, Torre and many others, it's not difficult to see they all value the variables that don't show up on the stat sheet. You see it in their quotes, their lineups, the chances they take during a game (which go against the Moneyball philosophy) and the strength of their baseball people who draft, develop and trade for talent.
I don't know how others have formed their opinions, but mine was developed from playing the game at a high level, being around excellent coaching, listening to guys with success and watching and observing.
It's my opinion and clearly, I feel strongly about it. There is a chance, that I could be completely wrong, and baseball will figure this out, and every team will have a HAL 9000 making the GM decisions, and replacing the manager in the dugout.
by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you again.
by Al on Jul 25, 2007 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you just say...
by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't know how to read, do you?
But none of those managers -- nor, do I think, does any OTHER baseball manager -- simply bury himself in a stat book and only use the players who will perform the way the stat sheet says they will in every single situation, every single day.
Because such a manager would be quickly out of a job.
by Al on Jul 25, 2007 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LaRussa does.
by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you read "3 Nights in August"?
It's not only about the numbers. That's all I've been trying to say here.
by Al on Jul 25, 2007 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How can I?
by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Al...
by big_lowitzki on Jul 26, 2007 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is that what I said?
The entire stat theory (sabermetrics) is wholly based on where the value is in each players stats, and also stress that bunting, stealing, squeezing etc. are strategies that are basically useless. They base this theory in a similar fashion to a computer program that tells you when to hit and when to stay in a Blackjack game. Problem is, your talking about human beings as the players, not a stagnant deck of cards. All of these (successful) managers that I named, use strategies that fly in the face of Sabermetrics, and therefore, they must have some trust in the human element and the variables that are so firmly entrenched in the game.
by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually,
by johnny D on Jul 25, 2007 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like how you never responded to
by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I said before
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh, I'm so sorry to have proved
by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and for the record
Also, the word is "then" not "than". Practice that for a while, and maybe I'll teach you cursive next year.
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jack Haley
must be a pretty good player right?
judging players by championships won is silly, its judging an individual player by a team statistic
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2007 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Taking a step back
In baseball, we've found through history that the numbers really are the "bottom line." They're the sales figures, the how many widgets did you make... etc. But baseball does have some intagibles like "hustle," working a pitch count, hitting to the open part of the field... etc. Some of these are recorded in some teams systems but not everything.
What I see in this forum is that a good deal of folks who seem to be pointing to those latter issues, but I think also that they perceive such a noticable difference between Theriot and our former SS's that they're bound to throw extra laud and honor his way.
For what it's worth, Theriot has been a positive difference maker in the team this year. Has he been the best possible difference maker? Not hardly, but there's always room in any baseaball team to look for something more out of any player.
by stelmodad on Jul 25, 2007 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everything that happens on the field
The runs scored by a team measures the teams offense, the runs allowed by a team measures the teams defense. The issue is how to isolate how those runs were scored and allowed.
To do an analysis of Theriot, one should analyse his defense, his baserunning, how many runs he contributes via defense and baseruning, how many runs he contributes via offense, the total runs he contributes, and compare him to other players.
by rfloh on Jul 25, 2007 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Garbage in garbage out
Of all the major sports, baseball is the least understood, because it is loaded with subjective variables.
I read Moneyball, and it was an interesting work, and I also believe statisics can ASSIST in evaluating teams and players. But, for those that think this game can be simplified to this level are sadly mistaken. Maybe there is a desire to do this, so people can feel they understand the game better, by simply looking at a spreadsheet.
Nothing in baseball management, can outweight the importance of the experience, instinct and levelheadedness a good baseball person brings to the table.
by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Loud, sustained applause!
by Al on Jul 25, 2007 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hyperbole
Nobody said that.
But, for those that think this game can be simplified to this level are sadly mistaken.
Nobody thinks that.
You are creating arguments to disagree with. What you are actually railing against is the people who use statistics to ASSIST them in evaluating players.
by jacob on Jul 25, 2007 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no, I am basically saying that
I did, however, concede that Theriot is our best shortstop option right now, and not a terrible baseball player. Guys like him and David Eckstein just aren't particularly good. Nothing more. Nothing less.
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You interpreted their argument
by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe you should NOT read Moneyball?
Also, more "dynamic" sports like soccer contain far more subjective variables. In soccer you have up to 22 players are involved in the game at the same time. Baseball cannot compare. Of course, you might argue that soccer is not a "major" sport. But then that is also subjective.
by rfloh on Jul 26, 2007 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i could be wrong
by mike on Jul 25, 2007 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ostensibly, he missed
Hopefully, one day I can call him "Ronny".
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Never...
by big_lowitzki on Jul 26, 2007 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brilliance
"Theriot has a good, but far from special OBA". Agreed.
Again, I think he does everything except hit for power pretty well -- or, "good". Including baserunning, defense at both SS and 2B, and the "O" part of OPS. Good+Good+Good+Poor is still pretty good. Do you have another choice for starting SS (on the roster)?
by JohnM on Jul 25, 2007 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
read what I've written elsewhere
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No...
by big_lowitzki on Jul 26, 2007 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It got David Eckstein pretty far.
by Al on Jul 26, 2007 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please note that...
We appreciate your compliance and look forward to future posts.
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 25, 2007 9:42 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Ok can I use
There is a very funny bit in the current Heckler on Theriot
and Fontenot who according the paper were thrown out of
Great America after getting into a heated arguement when they
were not allowed on the roller coaster because they failed the
height requirement.
PS I got The Riot in the BCB fantasy league
by jessica on Jul 25, 2007 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
re: Ok can I use
- "Augie Ojeida type" - Three (3) times
- gutsy - Two (2) times
- cute little fellow - infinitely
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 25, 2007 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do find it funny
by rlpete on Jul 25, 2007 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But
Theriot is Mark McLemore, but he can play SS defensively and maybe has a little better batting eye. Decent but not tremendous OBP/SLG, good speed, versatility, hustle.
Now, before you go "yeah, well thanks..." Mark McLemore played in 1832 major league baseball games across 19 seasons, although he was only a starter in 5-6 of those. But he's also a guy who Pinella utilized extensively in Seattle, with very good results.
He's not an All-Star, he's a good role player who, if he can keep adjusting, can have an 8-10 year MLB career.
by Invalid User on Jul 25, 2007 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see DeRosa
Batting-wise Theriot and McLemore do have a lot of similarities. McLemore's career line was .259/.349/.341. As you said, a decent career. Eckstein's career line right now is .284/.350/.360. Theriot will likely end up somewhere around the two of these.
by rlpete on Jul 25, 2007 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Theriot
One could even argue that pancakes are better serve with OJ than milk, but that's a silly argument.
I digress. He runs just as hard to first on a routine out as he does on a gapper. It's because of that hustle that opportunities are created. In the 1-run game department, opportunities are often the difference in a W or an L.
I realize today's musings have made me sound like the President of the Theriot Fan Club, so I will back off some from here on out.
:)
Florida Cubbie
by Cribbs463 on Jul 25, 2007 10:39 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
And people wonder how I am a Cub fan.
But to hear some of the comments out of your mouthes just trashing a guy like Ryan Theriot is to the point of absurdness.
I could see if the guy was an all-about-me character and an on or off-the-field problem but he is not. He is about as humble as they come.
To really see the signicants of what "The Riot" brings you actually need to watch every game to see what the guy is capable of.
To the poster who said no more "David Eckstein type" or "scrappy" comparisons, if it really bothers you that bad then I won't write it but some of you find anyway to start controversy.
I thought we were all for the same team last time I checked.
Also people dont see how I am a Cubs fan because I don't wear off the usual ignorance of most Cubs fans.
If I really am going to get so much negative feedback I might as well not post any more diaries.
Thank you all who had atleast something nice to say.
Last but not least, Sweep those Cardinals, Cubs!
by CuboftheSouth15 on Jul 25, 2007 1:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey...
Try "hustle".
Try "heart".
Or even "guts".
I've never seen a stat measure grace under pressure.
Anyhow, good to see another Floridian here. Although I imagine judging by your email address that we aren't on the same page when it comes to college football. :)
First round is on me!
Florida Cubbie
by Cribbs463 on Jul 25, 2007 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was joking...
And as far as the whole stats vs. intangibles debate, I'm firmly in the middle. I respect stats and admire those who can interpret them effectively, but I, too, choose to believe there's more to baseball than an Excel spreadsheet could ever show.
I'd also point out that, as tharr's post demonstrates, one can drill down and dig up stats to defend a player just as easily as one can do so to criticize him.
That said, I think Thelonious was merely trying to add some balance to the unmitigated lovefest that was this diary, and I didn't have a problem with that. I do think it's a shame, though, that he (or anyone) turns to thinly veiled (or completely naked) insults when someone disagrees with him.
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 25, 2007 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you on the negativity
One of my favorite posts on him was over at the Cub Reporter last year where someone refered to him in highly favorable terms as an insect,meaning that he lived on instinct and did it very well.
Don't let the stat heads get you down. I always remember Francona giving much of the credit for the Bosox 2004 miracle to Dave Roberts for his crucial stolen base in game 4 of the ALCS. That is how I see Theriot.
by jessica on Jul 25, 2007 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pirhana
I live closer to Minneapolis than I do Chicago, so I see a lot of Twins games. Last year, the Twins had a group of role players they nicknamed "The Pirhanas." These little guys just hustled and went all out on every play and ended up really taking on the persona of that nickname. The Twins had a great second half and made it to the playoffs with those players - guys like Punto, Bartlett, Ford and Tyner. Ya, nobody's heard of those guys but they were key in a lot of those second have wins. Maybe best of all, Ozzie Guillen came up with the nickname and abolutely hated those guys.
Hopefully Theriot, Fontenot, DeRosa and dare I say Jacque (he's been getting some nice two-out RBI singles lately) can solidify their role as a group. Anybody have an idea for a nickname?
by montanacubby on Jul 25, 2007 1:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Don't the Twins STILL have the piranhas'?
by rfloh on Jul 26, 2007 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pirhana
by CuboftheSouth15 on Jul 25, 2007 2:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The value of Theriot
If we recall his season slump, remember it occurred with his shift to the #8 hole. His numbers there were .118/.211/.329. That's horrible. It's worse than horrible. However in the #2 spot, where he appears to be solidly placed the numbers are much more revealing. .328/.397/.846.
How about clutch? Some claim there is no such thing but if we are to accept stats as proof of everything, then let's see what Theriot's numbers there are. RISP .344/.433/.866. Those numbers aren't too shabby. How does he do late in the game? Innings 7-9 .310/.395/.825.
Some miscellaneous stats. He's 5th in the NL in the fewest % of pitches missed 8.8%. He's scored 44% of the times he reached base. That's 10th in the NL. He has struck out every 9.5 AB, good for 8th and has 17SB, good for 10th.
In summary, I am convinced that fair credit for the team's turnaround can be credited to Lou's insertion of Theriot in the #2 hole. The stats would seem to provide proof of that to the most skeptical observer. Aside from that, he's what most of us call a gamer.
by tharr on Jul 25, 2007 2:40 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Exactly!!!
Now, the question is... how long will those last? And if he does have this ability to be better in these situations, why doesn't he do it all the time?
would you rather have someone who succeeds 33% of all his at-bats, or someone who succeeds in 35% of late-inning or "big" at bats and 25% the rest of the at-bats?
I'll take the former.
by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and I can agree with that
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've always felt
My point is that the same stats have different values based upon the situation and many of the stats quoted are faceless with respect to their timing. Until stats are developed with quality points, the disagreement between numbers and guts fans will never be resolved.
by tharr on Jul 25, 2007 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who knows why
As to your choice as to which is best, a .330 hitter or a .270 hitter, the answer should be obvious. However, suppose the choice was someone who succeeded 30% of all at bats versus someone who succeeded 38% in big at bats and 25% all other times, I'd presume your choice would be different.
by tharr on Jul 26, 2007 4:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually..
I just like the catchy phase of Gator Bait. It was intended to be G8trBaitH8tr but it didnt go though so I was stuck with that.
Anyway I am in the St Petersburg region and I am really hoping the Cubs can make the postseason because I got tickets.
Hope to hear from you soon there, Cribbs463!
by CuboftheSouth15 on Jul 25, 2007 3:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Can I just add...
He plays the game the way it was meant to be played. He does whatever it takes to win. What more could any baseball fan ask for?
There is no "mancrush" just a fan of a competitive team and a competitive player.
by Tangled Up In Blue on Jul 25, 2007 3:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
it's funny...
In truth, I know relatively little about computers, DID play baseball into high school, and I typically eschew numbers outside of this sport. Unfortunately, I'm interested in reality, and that lies in the numbers. For some, sabermetrics is an engaging side event for baseball fans. It doesn't excite me as much, but I feel like you simply can't have an argument about certain things without having knowledge in the statistical aspects of the game (or you can, but you end up talking out of your ass, like many of the regular posters here).
Anything that doesn't show up in some form of statistic (like whether the player is getting any from his wife, or whether his thighs are chapped from running too much) likely has a minimal effect at best. At any rate, you can't rationalize this magical world of mysterious data and turn Ryan Theriot into a great baseball player from what his stat line shows. Obviously, the fact that he's been far better than advertised defensively, and he's been good situationally are mitigating factors (still stats, by the way), but he just isn't very good.
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 3:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
No one's saying Theriot is "great".
You said something interesting:
"For some, sabermetrics is an engaging side event for baseball fans."
Absolutely true. It is for me, in fact. If anyone here thinks I don't know what the advanced numbers are, I surely do, and have for longer than most, since I was a reader of Bill James' original abstracts.
You said "side event". I have a problem with people who think sabermetrics is the be-all and end-all of analyzing baseball, leaving no room for anything else. Note that I am NOT accusing you of being such a person; however, there are quite a few such people.
Sabermetrics is a tool. Used properly, it can be of great help. Used improperly, it can tell you things that are simply false.
by Al on Jul 25, 2007 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's the thing...
Taken as a whole? Theriot's line doesn't look great, and it doesn't explain his impact. But if you take those situational stats, he looks very good. Why can't you acknowledge this?
by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which was exactly my point.
by Al on Jul 25, 2007 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude.
Stats explain everything relevant in baseball. To be able to say that, I need to understand there is more than one stat.
The C&L stats and such help explain what Theriot has done. Even sabremetric people can look at stats and only stats and show why he's been valuable.
The problem is, it's unsustainable. David Eckstein had some great moments in WS. And they can ALL be measured statistically. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.
The question, though, is to also figure out what might happen in the future. Will David Eckstein make the same big plays? Will Ryan Theriot continue to perform at such a high level? Where do you put your money?
Everything relevant in winning baseball is statistically measurable. It's a fact.
I like Theriot. He's provided a lot of great moments for me as watched the most Cubs games in my life since I was 10 years old. He's been exciting. The problem is, if it came down to him and Carlos Guillen, I know what trade I'd make. Ryan and A-Rod? Theriot and Jeter? Theriot and about 15-20 other SS?
I want to win a World Series. The Cardinals showed there's a lot of chance involved. There's a lot of shortstops in the majors that would give the Cubs a better chance to win than Theriot. As I said, it's a fact.
by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not how much, it's when
by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But what got the team up by 6 runs
by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has anyone ever noticed how
If you rely purely on stats, you should conclude that 9 guys in the lineup should not get hot, or cold all at the sametime, but it happens often during a season. Why is that? It's directly related to the human element of the game, which shows up in a term we call momentum. Ever hear people say hitting is contagious, or that player brings energy to a team that is contagious? Well, from my experience, it is a fact that you feed on what other players do and how they play the game.
Some teams appear to have the ability to scratch something out of nothing, and those 10-12 games you win when you are not playing your best, could be the difference between making the playoffs or finishing 4th. The vast majority of good teams have a couple "scrappy" type players, that may not have the best statisics, but they have a way of pulling their team up a notch when they need it. To me, Theriot is the type of player that is useful beyond his statisics, because I think he has a positive effect on his teamates. Can you measure it, hell no, but some players have it and others don't.
The blend of skills you have on a team is what is important, not just the pure talent level you have, because your team is capable of beating others in multiple ways.
by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Contagious you are right.
by CuboftheSouth15 on Jul 25, 2007 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't subscribe to the cancer in the clubhouse
Many teams have won and won big with guys not getting along, but not too many win when those guys they may not like, play like crap on the field.
by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a gross misrepresentation.
That doesn't make any sense at all. Explain why one should conclude that.
by tyger1147 on Jul 25, 2007 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is a starter in major league Baseball
by NIUcubbie on Jul 25, 2007 3:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Obviously, we're talking in relative terms here
"Say, Bill. Your son is really fucking terrible. I noticed he isn't playing in the MLB"
"Thanks Frank. I can see that your son is completely shitty as well"
"Thanks buddy. I'll be sure to forward that complement. I'd say that, together, our sons make one shitty double play combo".
"I hear ya man. They aren't even as good as Neifi Perez. They really are a disgrace to the little leagues"
"Man, you should have seen how embarrassing my son was in T ball"
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so your comparing the skills it takes
by NIUcubbie on Jul 25, 2007 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like how the "Adult"
by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
adults need to respect the young and naive
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you didn't just put my crappy
by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're really reaching now
Look on the bright side. I'm sure you could probably write for Leno.
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would rather write for Conan
by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zambrano being a "Cancer"....
Which would be Michael Barrett.
by CuboftheSouth15 on Jul 25, 2007 4:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Big Z is definitely not a Cancer...
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 25, 2007 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well played
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Year of the rooster
by Chitown Mojo on Jul 25, 2007 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
aaah....the cock years
by Chitown Mojo on Jul 25, 2007 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
someday that'll be the title of my revue album
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like some yesteryears
by Chitown Mojo on Jul 25, 2007 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh wait...
by Chitown Mojo on Jul 25, 2007 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and that will forever be known in NYC as...
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're a fan of the monk, are you?
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get to be on the Cowbell!
by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
On the other hand...
by sparkles721 on Jul 25, 2007 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thats amazing. what an incredible coincidence
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No your not a cancer Sparkles
you are cancer now Todd Walker he was a cancer.
Ok just kidding
I am actually on the Gemeni/Cancer cusp so it depends on the
listing.
by jessica on Jul 25, 2007 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh a Gemini I see.
I understand where your coming from though with the comparsions though.
by CuboftheSouth15 on Jul 25, 2007 4:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yikes...
I do believe that athletes carry with them a certain set of intangibles; I believe leadership, desire, and effort can be quite infectious and generally support a team, but at some point things boil down to statistics.
Has Theriot made us a better team this year? Yes. But what were the alternatives? Izturis? Of course Theriot has proved valuable this year, but his impact might be minimal if we had another suitable alternative.
You do need a functional clubhouse to succeed in most sports, but I believe that this is least applicable to baseball, where the game is always broken down to individual performances. I loathe the numerous Kendall comments I read that say: "I like him. He calls a good game. He provides leadership."
How the hell would we know who's scoring the edge in intangibles? How do you measure the team's leaders? How do you measure effort? By an opinion that Theriot 'just seems to hustle a lot'? By the same argument, I would then assume that A-Ram numbers aren't quite as good as they suggest, simply because it 'doesn't always look like he's trying.'
I loved rlpete's point above that says something along the lines of this: "Everybody hated Eckstein when he was winning with the Cards and thought the term scrappy was the dumbest adjective in baseball. Now, the tides have turned and Theriot is scrappy and sweating intangibles."
He's been good for the team people, but he ain't that great.
by thekansasian on Jul 25, 2007 4:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You said...
You can't measure those things, so don't try. All I've been trying to say is that BOTH statistical measures AND intangibles help teams win.
I hope ALL of us can agree on that.
by Al on Jul 25, 2007 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Theriot
Call me ignorant, condescend and say that the adults are talking or what have you.
Perhaps the statistics aren't good enough with Theriot for some, but who cares. The kid plays well enough for me, and evidently he plays well enough for some others as well.
Obviously there are some vastly different opinions about this kid. In reading through this though forum I think that some folks care more so more about "winning" an argument than baseball or whether or not Theriot honestly contributes to wins.
BTW, there's another game tonight. If we're not all too busy here belittling one another here we may want to enjoy two great clubs go at it.
by stelmodad on Jul 25, 2007 4:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
you're ignorant
what have you
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dont you have a job or something
by NIUcubbie on Jul 25, 2007 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
aren't you a student?
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
a day off?
by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
more vindictive than creative
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"I'm clearly better at this than you"
Oh, and by the way, you must know SO much about baseball, than how can you make clearly wrong statements that Bonds is the best player in baseball and then magically forget you even said it?
by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oops, I meant nl, I was wrong
by DTJchris on Jul 25, 2007 6:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
my favorite part about you
Two words: you are incredibly clueless about baseball.
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
good observation I am a student
by NIUcubbie on Jul 25, 2007 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
quite the douche bag, hmm?
I'm a senior in college. I have a job (sorry to disappoint you), and I took the week off to have surgery. Thanks for your concern.
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
glad to know you have a good life.
by NIUcubbie on Jul 25, 2007 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry
by Thelonious on Jul 25, 2007 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did the surgery thing a month ago, no fun.
You've got valid points in many of your posts but I think most of them get lost in the confrontations. I'm a bit older and apathetic to most crap so most of this stuff rolls off so I'm not going to villify you here.
Hope the post-op goes well. Peace.
by stelmodad on Jul 25, 2007 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't say I am surprised.....
by MPH73 on Jul 25, 2007 11:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
see, you do have a sense of humor
by stelmodad on Jul 25, 2007 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hope everything goes right for you.
by CuboftheSouth15 on Jul 25, 2007 6:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Roman Catholic prayers and well wishes all around
by Cajuncub on Jul 25, 2007 10:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
back to ryan theriot
by kylejo on Jul 26, 2007 12:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Oy!
I think many of us project a little of ourselves into a person like Theriot and we are naturally drawn to his play because inevitably it has produced results that are both observed AND measureable. I don't know if there would be this same kind of love from the fan base if he was hitting .230/.290/.320 though? I tend to think that it would be doubtful for all this fan love if he wasn't at least doing a decent job. (And he is doing a decent job by the way.)
On the other hand, Theriot's success added to his work ethic might make for some good team chemistry which I am willing to buy into by the way. Sandberg observed Dawson and how "hard he worked every day" and inevitably Sandberg raised his game to an all new level after Dawson's arrival. Does Theriot's work ethic rub off on others? I don't know but it is quite possible. Does make Cliff Floyd want to chug, chug, chug all the way home or hustle to beat out a base hit? Does it make Jacque Jones want to elevate his game now that he's been handed the every day CF job by DEFAULT? I hope so. I do know that a good work ethic rubs off on people and high productivity is the result at least in my field of manufacturing - especially when a manager figuratively punches an underachieving/talented worker in the gut with productivity facts. So, I would guess that this would be something that translates into the baseball world as well.
On my third hand, I agree that there are probably 18-20 MLB shortstops right now that are statistically better than Theriot as well. My stance on Theriot is simply this though - there are more pressing needs to address on this team than whether or not Theriot is a good fit as the every day SS - short or long term. (How about the situation where our millionaire RF who currently plays CF against RH pitching only and is hitting no better than Theriot in all aspects of the game?)
Don't get me wrong, I'm thrilled that Jacque is helping the Cub win ball games lately but I'm not going to be lulled into thinking that this will last the rest of the season. Jones has serious swing flaws and any pitcher with good command can easily get him out high and tight (ground ball to the right side) or low and away (strike three) on any given day. He's had a couple of good raps to the LF alley on pitchers' mistakes and he's had a couple of ground balls find holes too but let's not lull ourselves into thinking that this short run of success is sustainable.
The iron for trading Jones by the deadline is finally glowing a little bit brighter lately and the time to execute this trade is right now. I do not want to see the Cubs on the hook for another year of Jones in CF or even RF for that matter. That's what really needs to change between now and July 31st and I hope that it happens. I root for Pie in CF and trade for an upgrade in the pen or a RH bat RF.
by BJ Simpson on Jul 26, 2007 5:57 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

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