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The Value Of Hustle

In today's game, we saw a perfect example of one of those things "that cannot be measured".

In the second inning, with two out -- one of the outs recorded on yet another baserunning blunder by Jacque Jones -- and runners on second and third, Ryan Theriot hustled down the line, legging out a little dribbler to Mets shortstop Jose Reyes, who's usually one of the slickest defensive shortstops in baseball.

That gave the Cubs a 1-0 lead and appeared to unhinge Mets starter John Maine; he walked the next two hitters, forcing in a run, hit Cliff Floyd, scoring another, and when Mark DeRosa smacked a two-run single to left and Jones redeemed his baserunning mistake with a RBI single (and when was the last time you saw a batter get two hits in an inning?), Maine was done, the Cubs had a 6-0 lead, and cruised to a 6-2 victory over the Mets, evening the series and possibly reaching another tie with the Brewers for first place in the NL Central, pending the result of their game with the Phillies, at this writing led by the Phillies 4-1 in the 4th. (See the open thread below for the MLB.com Gameday link for that game.)

Little things done right. We know, we know. Theriot's not the best player on the team, and he may not even be the regular SS past this season. Yes, I know his .715 OPS going into today's game is mediocre. But he hustles and plays the game the right way, and today, that hustle helped the Cubs win.

And isn't that what's important? Wins?

There were so many little things done right today. DeRosa made a spectacular catch, over-his-shoulder, Willie-Mays-basket-style, on a popup into short RF by David Wright in the third inning, with a runner on second and the game, at that time, scoreless. Little things. Ted Lilly threw a terrific game, and helped save the bullpen by throwing 113 pitches (76 strikes) and going until there were two out in the 8th, when there was no way Lou was going to let him face Moises Alou a third time, after Alou had homered off him twice.

Incidentally, the second Alou HR landed about six rows in front of us. Something happened to whoever was attempting to throw the ball back on the field, and it wound up in the RF corner in the lower box seats, from where it was then deposited on the field. Incidentally, when this ball was mis-thrown, Phil said he could throw a ball from our bleacher bench and hit Aramis Ramirez, standing in his position at 3B, on the fly.

This notion made us all laugh hysterically, just so you don't think we're buying what Phil tells us.

Meanwhile, Carlos Marmol got the last out of the 8th (after pitching around Alou and walking him), and we were somewhat surprised to see Bob Howry come out to throw the 9th, pitching for the second day in a row. Fortunately, his 9th inning was uneventful, and having thrown only ten pitches, he's probably available tomorrow. Lou said in his postgame news conference that Marmol (who, with Billy Petrick and Rocky Cherry and Sean Gallagher back at Iowa, is now the designated carrier of the pink backpack that is toted to the bullpen with water, sunflower seeds, etc. for the relief pitchers) won't throw at all tomorrow, and that he'd get Kerry Wood in there "soon". Again, the 9th inning today might have been a good place to get Wood in a game with minimal pressure -- a four-run lead.

This led to some speculation among us that Lou was saving Wood for the nationally-televised game tomorrow night. But managers don't do that. Do they?

Tim McClelland is one of the most respected ball-and-strike umpires in the major leagues. But doesn't it drive you nuts the way he has that delayed strike call? It must drive the players nuts, too, because more than one hitter started down to first base thinking he had walked, only to be called out on strikes. Hey, Tim: if it's a strike, call it a strike, willya?

Alfonso Soriano didn't look very good today, grounding out four times, the first two on comebackers to Maine. But it didn't matter, as other players picked up the slack. That's the way it's seemed to work for this club this year -- it's become a winner, and become likeable in so doing, by being a true team, having players pick each other up, and not relying on only one or two superstars. Jones made a horrendous baserunning blunder today -- he overslid third base, and 3B umpire Paul Schrieber made no call, which means no play has been made yet. David Wright had trouble finding the ball, and Jones could have scrambled back to third and been called safe, but delayed too long, long enough for Wright to tag him out. And yet, Jones got his redemption for the second time this week after a flub, by driving in a run later in the inning; he had a third hit to raise his average over .250. OK, so it's still not great, but if he can contribute in this way, he's still a useful player. So is Jason Kendall, who walked in the big six-run third, also singled, and is now hitting .244 with a .361 OBA. That's just fine, as long as the rest of the big hitters do their thing.

I also learned today that the primary reason the Cubs made no deadline deals, and also the reason that there were very few big-name deadline deals by any team, is that general managers who were offering big names for trade were asking for far too much in return. That doesn't mean that deals cannot be made in August, on a lower level, to fill any holes that might develop.

So tomorrow, Tom Glavine of the Mets goes for his milestone 300th win. The last pitcher to attempt such a milestone at Wrigley Field, also throwing for a New York team, was Roger Clemens, four years ago, in a game that turned out to be one of the most memorable of that magical 2003 season. Clemens failed in his quest, which was, like Glavine's, not his first try (for Clemens, it was his third such effort), and let us hope that Glavine suffers the same fate. Incidentally, the winning pitcher that day in 2003 was... Kerry Wood. Somehow, I have the feeling that Wood will play an important role tomorrow night. Just a hunch. Till then.

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Al...
 were you able to get a feel for what the front office was searching for, deal wise?

by Damen Jackson on Aug 4, 2007 7:09 PM CDT reply actions  

Nothing specific was mentioned...
... only that pretty much everything was overpriced.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Aug 4, 2007 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good game today.
I went to my local American Association team (Lincoln Saltdogs) game last night. They lost, too. But a fun thing came out of it.

The third base coach for the opposing team, the St. Joseph Blacksnakes, was Pete LaCock. Some of the oldtimers here will remember him I'm sure.

phat

by phatass on Aug 4, 2007 7:16 PM CDT reply actions  

Pete LaCock?
Wow, no kidding!

Here are his career stats. Note that he walked more than he struck out and had a career OBA of .326. If he'd have had any power or hit for a little more average he might have become a low-rent version of Mark Grace.

And he got to play in a World Series.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Aug 4, 2007 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, he seemed like a nice guy.
To be honest, he was a bit before my time, so I didn't really know him.

Oddly enough, he's the first Cub I've ever met.

phat

by phatass on Aug 4, 2007 7:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Jones
I was in the first row of the upper deck on top of home plate today (instead of the bleachers). Jones had more than enough time to reach back and tag third base.

Interesting thing today. The usher up there in my dad's section stopped me today and asked if we could "Trade Dumpster." This guy knows the team, the park, the field.... I was rather surprised when he stopped me just to discuss this. He usually is not so opinoinated.

by No Southern Belle on Aug 4, 2007 7:17 PM CDT reply actions  

Jones did come in hard...albeit to hard
It almost looked like jones was trying to break up a double play on that.  I respect the hustle he showed on the play...just wasn't the smartest play
When in doubt punch Barret in the face

by jds2 on Aug 4, 2007 7:20 PM CDT reply actions  

I disagree
The throw beat him so had he not gone in like that he would have been out anyway.  I think you're right that he was trying to break up the DP.  I don't think it was a blunder at all.  If he goes in any less aggressively, it's a force out at third.  The DP seemed highly unlikely, but I don't think he could have known that.  DelGato got to the ball very quickly and had he not had trouble getting the ball out of his glove, a DP was possible.

The real blunder was Lilly's bunt.  He's gotta bunt the ball down the third baseline there.

And why he wasn't bunting again with men on first and third and no outs it beyond me.

by lohroffc on Aug 4, 2007 7:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think you misunderstood
i don't think the oversliding was the blunder...just not getting back to the base after the fact.  But I think Jones played hard aggresive baseball on that play and shouldn't be chastised for it.  This was definently not cedano oversliding a walk
When in doubt punch Barret in the face

by jds2 on Aug 4, 2007 7:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly
It was a bad bunt by Lilly.  The only reason why Jones wasn't out in the first place was because he slid into third so hard.

by Zachary on Aug 4, 2007 7:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed he was breaking up the DP
Jones knew he was out and decided to go in hard to break up the double play.  He was clearly out before over sliding the bag the ump blew the call.  

I think it was a heads up play rather than a blunder.  If he goes in standing or a weak slide and they turn the DP then it would be a blunder.  

by JonH on Aug 5, 2007 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Home plate ump
On the TV replays you can clearly see that he is audibly saying "strike" to the catcher and batter before he makes his motion.  This is just more annoying for fans and TV watchers.  

I think Ramirez heading down to first was more wishful thinking and trying to "sell" the ball than not knowing the call.  

At least there was nothing too strange today.  If memory serves McClelland was the home plate ump for the Sammy corked bat game, the Albert Belle/Jason Grimsley corked bat game and the Brett pine tar game.

by goody14 on Aug 4, 2007 7:23 PM CDT reply actions  

I watch gameday
which now tracks the exact position of the ball in space, and this was a very well umpired game (home plate anyway), coming after one of the worst umpired games I've ever seen.

If you watched gameday yesterday, you would have been treated to a show of balls that literally crossed the plate middle thigh and dead center that weren't called strikes. And David Wright had a few ABs that would have been strikeouts if called by a competent umpire, but instead became walks. His AB in the first was a 4 pitch walk, that should have been 4 straight strikes:

And his "walk" in the ninth:

by Thelonious on Aug 4, 2007 7:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

also
I see pitches that are strikes down the middle of the plate (Straight down!) that are called balls
Now that he is back, play Matt Murton!!

by Chanman25 on Aug 4, 2007 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm going to have to rethink my position
on Friday's home plate umpire. Does anyone know if the ump was once a ref in the NBA? What were the odds in Vegas for Friday's game? (I'm joking, OK?)

by Fraggin Judge on Aug 4, 2007 10:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Looks to me like
He was calling the "old-school" strike-zone, which ignores the high strike and plays the outside corner somewhat more generously. See here:

Note that the "new strike zone" movement was some 5-6 years ago and seems to be slowly fading away, at least with some umpires who prefer to interpret the rules their own way.

"And heeeere cooome the pretzels!"

by NightPutting on Aug 4, 2007 11:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

hamels looks really good today.
if the phillies hold on then were back in 1st (tied).  plus even if we give up a game in the standings tommarow, then we would only have given up 1/2 a game on the brewers homestand, which i think would be really good since they are sub .500 on the road this year
When in doubt punch Barret in the face

by jds2 on Aug 4, 2007 7:27 PM CDT reply actions  

speed and hustle can't be measured?
(aside from the fact that it was an umpiring blunder that I'll overlook).

So I guess stats like infield hits, stolen bases, range factor on defense, and batters' box to first times (that scouts measure) can't measure things like hustle and speed? Keep trying, Al, but I think you're out of your league on this discussion.

Every player hustles on infield ground balls like Theriot's (they don't like to be the goat who ends potentially productive innings). Evidence of Theriot's speed DOES show up in statistics. If I looked a simple Theriot stat line, it's pretty obvious that he's quick, and hustles. Ergo, this play proves nothing.

by Thelonious on Aug 4, 2007 7:37 PM CDT reply actions  

Speed might show up
But what resulted from his speed today and unraveling the pitcher can ultimately never be measured in statistics.
Tinker to Evers to Chance!

by sanantonecub on Aug 4, 2007 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

irrelevant
Since you already know that speed can accomplish those things, a statistical analyis that implies speed should lead you to this conclusion.

Does a good OBP tell you that a player should score more runs? No, but it's an intuitive connection. Same principle here. Statistics lead you to conclusions: they aren't necessarily the conclusions themselves (they often are, but not always). But, in the end, just about everything shows up statistically. Whether those conclusions happen to be directly, or indirectly proven from numbers is essentially irrelevant.

The point is: I could look at Theriot's numbers and understand his potential benefit to the team just as easily as you can after watching that play today.

by Thelonious on Aug 4, 2007 7:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

if thats truly the case
Then how come no scouts actually ever considered Theriot to be even an above average prospect. I mean statistically he shouldn't be on our big league club, yet he is, and he has a starting spot because without him we dont win.  If you don't believe me, looking at any Baseball America post before this year about Theriot, or how Dusty handled him.  Those are the guys that look at stats (only), and wihtout some type of combination both system is flawed.

by INWes44 on Aug 4, 2007 9:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

I thought stat heads wanted Theriot to play
because of a high OBP, a stat Dusty was allergic to.

His minor league stats were deflated by his three year attempt to become a switch hitter.  

He's doing a good job this year and certainly is a front runner to take this season's coveted "Little Loveable Hustling White Guy That White Guys Love But Isn't Quite As Good As They Think Award" away from David Eckstein.

by TR on Aug 4, 2007 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

Are you seriously...
...accusing Baseball America of judging people based on their stats? Really?!? I mean, are you sure you're not thinking of Baseball Prospectus? Baseball America is a scouting-driven resource -- probably the only one that really brings any scouting data of real value to the common fan -- through and through. And Theriot's been on top of the BA leaderboards for years in the baserunning category, at least for the Cubs organization.
FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Aug 5, 2007 1:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ok, so lemme see if I understand this...
...you're claiming that the Cubs scored more runs today, because Ryan Theriot got a borderline call from an ump assisted by his hustle, than they would have if Theriot had ripped a line drive into the outfield and gotten a no-doubt single?

You and I both look at that conclusion and come to the same premise: that statistics can't measure that. You conclude from this that the statisics are flawed. I conclude that your reasoning is flawed. There's probably no way to reconcile these points of view, and I have no real interest in trying to do so. I'm just trying to decide if its amusing or insulting that you choose to look down on those who don't share your line of thinking here.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Aug 5, 2007 1:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not trying to insult anyone.
Just trying to show that sometimes things like this don't show up in any stat sheet. As noted above, this shows up "in the box score" just like a line-drive single ripped into left field. But it wasn't.

Yes, Theriot's speed does show up "in a stat line" -- he does, after all, lead the team in stolen bases.

I'm just not so sure why you and others who are more statistically oriented get so defensive whenever someone doesn't share your line of thinking.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Aug 5, 2007 4:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think the problem people have
with your emphasis on things that you think can't be measured is that you seem to grossly overvalue the allegedly unmeasurable qualities.

Ryan Theriot is a perfect example of this.  Rather than acknowledge his deficiencies as a player, all of which are easily demonstrated through statistics, you focus on things like "hustle" as if his scrappiness makes up for his numerous flaws as a player.  It's the same kind of reasoning you use to argue that Mark DeRosa is somehow the most valuable player on this year's team or that Damian Miller was the key to the 2003 team.

Basically, you appear to pick guys you think you like as people and make up arguments that portray them as better baseball players than they actually are.  

It's incredibly frustrating for some people as it makes reasonable debate impossible.  What's even worse is that it gives openings to little snots like Thelonius whose only goal in posting on boards like this is to try, like Gaius Marius before him, to prove how smart he is.

by Porfi on Aug 5, 2007 7:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well said.
I think people think I'm neither knowledgeable about stats, nor do I "like" using them. Neither is true. All I've been trying to say is that there are things that I witness myself, that cannot be placed in a table or on a spreadsheet and dissected in a dozen different numerical ways.

Baseball isn't played on a spreadsheet with numbers. It is played on a field by human beings. There is room for both statistical analysis, and hunches. When I said DeRosa was "most valuable", does that mean he had the best statistics? Of course not. But no one can deny his value to the team -- and in many ways that is above and beyond his statistical contribution to the ledger of numbers. Same for Miller in 2003 -- go ask any of the pitchers on that staff and they'll tell you. Is that "grossly overvaluing" it? No, it's not. It's simply pointing it out.

Neither "side" should discount what the other sees. This is exactly the argument that took place in "Moneyball".

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Aug 5, 2007 7:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

AL
I think one of the things that seperate the fans from the FANS are those like you who take a look beyond the boxscore and know the game enough to know the whole story of the game is not the final score all the time.
I just want the Cubs to top the Bears NFC Title Game as my highlight of the year.

by puckishcubsfan on Aug 5, 2007 7:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Thank you.
n/t
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Aug 5, 2007 7:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Re: little snots like Thelonius
Life after school has a way of humbling people like TD.  Whenever I see his posts, I skip the text and think "Yeah, I already know what you're after.  No thanks."  It actually has nothing to do with whether he is "right" or not.
"Signature must be less than 160 characters" -- Who has a name with 160 characters?

by BlueSox on Aug 5, 2007 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

lol
thank you for this, both of you. Your kind words made my day.

Also, I trust I'll be at least five times as pompous when I get out of law school. I sure hope so.

by Thelonious on Aug 5, 2007 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Law School!
Why didn't you say so?  Now, I understand.  Have a lot of fun with all that money you'll make.  

And, someday, maybe after the thrill is gone, I hope you'll have the courage to get some help for your superiority complex.  You'll feel much better, trust me.

"Signature must be less than 160 characters" -- Who has a name with 160 characters?

by BlueSox on Aug 5, 2007 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

I've been a government lawyer for years now...
...the bar exam and your first few years of practice have a way of humbling a person.
Santo Forever!

by BeerCub on Aug 5, 2007 8:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

5-3 phillies
2 run 2B by hart...braun up
Neifi Perez: Proving Amphetamines do not enhance performance

by jds2 on Aug 4, 2007 7:45 PM CDT reply actions  

Something else that can't be measured
was Floyd taking one off the leg for the team.  The replay clearly shows that he began to pull his leg away and then turned his leg in to let the pitch hit him in the back of the leg.

Nice to get the break on the Theriot call.  He was out.  Nice hustle though.  But then, Jones hustled, too.  Replays show he should have been called out immediately.

Senor Peepee Hands was tough today.  Nice to see no walks ahead of him.

by TR on Aug 4, 2007 7:52 PM CDT reply actions  

Every Player Hustles????
not a chance..one of the more annoying things in baseball.. 25% of the time the batter runs as hard as he can

by cozmotaylor on Aug 4, 2007 7:53 PM CDT reply actions  

Washington up 5-1 on St Louis
The Cardinals could be 8 games back of the division lead by the end of the night.  That's comfortable enough for me for the moment.
Tinker to Evers to Chance!

by sanantonecub on Aug 4, 2007 7:57 PM CDT reply actions  

Washington 10, St Louis 1
And I thought the Cardinals were "still in it"?
Tinker to Evers to Chance!

by sanantonecub on Aug 4, 2007 8:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Al...
we saw a perfect example of one of those things "that cannot be measured".

Why do you constantly say things like this?  Yes, it can be measured and is measured.  Just because there isn't a column for "hustle" does NOT mean that is NOT measured.  Why must everything have it's own stat column for you realize that damn near every possible thing in this game is accounted for in the numerous stats we have?  

I just don't get it, Al.  

by Maddog on Aug 4, 2007 7:59 PM CDT reply actions  

C'mon Maddog.

 Of course you get it. He's arguing about how some things can't be measured with stats. That there is beauty and power in baseball that can't be told by some stat.

    Jason Kendall today made an incredible block of a Carlos Marmol strikeout in the 8th inning. Now there are plenty of stats on fielding %, balls blocked, blah blah  blah, but that it was that Play by Kendall at that moment in that game that shows how crucial a catcher like him is to a team. More measurable than any stat can prove.

  You might not agree with it. In fact you probably don't. But don't say you don't understand it.

"I can't be held responsible for what I personally tell my goons to do...."- C. Montgomery Burns

by yahoodi on Aug 4, 2007 8:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thank you.
This is exactly what I'm talking about.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Aug 5, 2007 4:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

No, I don't get it.
Al spends a lot of time trying to point things out that he says cannot be measured on a stat sheet.  He doing so, I can only guess, so not to disrupt his understanding of this game.  Why is it so hard to understand that just because something doesn't have it's own stat column that it is, in fact, measurable?  Al so easily calls it hustle.  I call it running.  I call it speed.  I call it getting out of the box quickly.  All of these things are most certainly measurable.

Do these things have a column for themselves on most stat sheets?  Probably not, though scouts record speed on a 20/80 scale, BP also records speed, there is, as TD pointed out above, stats like stolen bases, infield hits, range factor, and even beyond those are the number of times a player has advanced from 1st to 3rd on a single or scored from 1st on a double and the number of times he's gotten down the line quickly enough to break up a double play.  There are numerous other stats that also quantify this exact thing Al says is not measurable.  

Just because it doesn't have it's own column in a stat sheet (or it's own formula as some smart-ass inquired about), does not mean it is not quantifiable.  It simply means that you are going to have to look at numerous stats to find your answer.  That play yesterday was recorded in a stat sheet and it's a play that would, in fact, speak of somebody's hustle and/or speed (an infield hit).  

You could have just been watching on Gameday and seen something like "Ryan Theriot singles to SS Jose Reyes" and you know damn well he was busting ass down the line.  You know Reyes has a cannon.  You know you don't infield hits for being lazy.  

How is this something that is not measurable?  

Of course there is beauty in this game.  I've never said there isnt', and in fact, last evening I wrote in an email briefly about the beauty of this game.  This does not mean that there are things that can't be told by some stat.  About the only thing that can't be measured by stats are the things that are the result of winning...good chemistry and team psychology.  Good teams are good at both (almost all of the time) and bad teams not so much.  Teams do not win because they have good chemistry or the psychology of the team is fantastic.  Those are the result of winning.  And maybe, I would never argue against it, once a team has these things, maybe...they have an impact on how the team plays, but that impact would be measurable.  

by Maddog on Aug 5, 2007 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not Everyone Who Disagrees With You Is Wrong
Of course there is beauty in this game.  I've never said there isnt', and in fact, last evening I wrote in an email briefly about the beauty of this game.

Well, good for you. But please, do not be so arrogant as to tell us that beauty can be measured in some stat. Wait untill I tell my wife. "Honey, your BQ is only .678. Work on it will ya, or I'm going to have to DFA you".

Santo Forever!

by BeerCub on Aug 5, 2007 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

Perfect.
Thank you.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Aug 5, 2007 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hah!
I get it! It's funny because people who believe that baseball statistics model run scoring lack all human emotion!

You wanna know why I get defensive? Because so far in this thread you've validated people who say "there's a difference between fans and FANS" and this little snide comment about wives being DFA'd for not being pretty enough in a statistical sense. Instead on engaging in a conversation or appearing open to something, you crack jokes.

Meanwhile, we've got people around here who seem to think that their keen baseball eyes tell them that Alfonso Soriano is an automatic out. Yeesh.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Aug 5, 2007 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Alrighty then...
...please show us where the human factor enters into anything posters like Maddog advocate. He's got all players as robots, and that just isn't so. He also takes great glee into not just disagreeing, but forcefully ripping into posters, especially Al, who dare to disagree with him. There is no debate with a guy like that, just capitulation. He doens't debate that some things can't be measured, because he's already said around here fans like that don't deserve to be heard. He's a very knowledgeable guy, extremely so, but from just his postings here, he's an arrogant cuss who begs for comments like the DFA'd wife.
Santo Forever!

by BeerCub on Aug 5, 2007 8:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hustle..
I don't know how one can measure Hustle? In one way hustle is speed and there are ways to measure speed. But if you call those measurements as Hustle that would be incorrect. Hustling is giving your 100% or more like 110% on a given play and on a given day. There is no way you can measure if a given player is giving his 100% on a play or in a game unless you see it with your own eyes. For Felix Pie running at 100 MPH to beat out a throw might be hustle and for Prince Fielder running at 50 MPH to beat out a throw might be called a hustle. So hustle is all relative and more importantly it is also relative to the given physical condition of a player on a particular day or during the happening of a particular player. If Aramis is physically capable of sprinting at say 80 MPH and on a given day if he is physically restricted because of a sore knee then if he runs at like 60 MPH (and gives his 100% given his physical condition)that can be called Hustle according to the eyes of a watching scout.

There are many things in this game that CANNOT be measured by stats period. There are so many un-certainties, immeasurable quantities in any game that makes it playing it or watching it in real life more interesting than it is on XBox.

by cubsnlinux on Aug 5, 2007 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

What's the equation
for hustle?
SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!

by CubFaninCA on Aug 4, 2007 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

So how's that.....
....absolute certain 95 loss season for the Cardinals coming for you, by the way?
Santo Forever!

by BeerCub on Aug 5, 2007 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Jones Play at 3d
I can't bring myself to find fault with Jones for his overslide of 3d. He was going in aggressively to break up a double play on a bad bunt. If I remember correctly, he didn't even try for the bag...he was just trying to get a piece of Wright. By the time he either saw the ump had given no call or Quade telling him to get on the bag, it was too late. To expect that he would go into the bag as if he were going to be safe isn't realistic.
PERRY!!!!

by Goat Whisperer on Aug 4, 2007 8:11 PM CDT reply actions  

6-5 MIL
Fielder homer

by NTNgod on Aug 4, 2007 8:25 PM CDT reply actions  

Fielder 2-run shot
5-6 Philadelphia :(
Tinker to Evers to Chance!

by sanantonecub on Aug 4, 2007 8:25 PM CDT reply actions  

i gotta admit something
i was way way wrong about the derosa signing. i thought hendry was an idiot and i thought he over paid. boy i couldnt have been anymore wrong.  we have our our dlee,aram,sori,bigz,etc and i might get flamed for saying this but my vote for cub mvp thus far is derosa. he's an absolute gold glover at every position he plays. he makes the opposing hitter pitch a ton of pitches to him and he's a good hiiter. he seems like a great clubhouse guy and a great teamplayer. you cant get enough of these type players these days and i'm proud we have him. good luck to glavine tommorrow i hope he no hits us and gets his 300th win and knocks us right outta 1st place tommorrow! i also hope the met hitters pound marquis for about 10 runs. i also hope wood comes into the game and gives up at least 5 runs. go cubbies.
Here comes the nasty leftie to shut it down in the 9th......Clay Rapada!!!!

by cubsluver22 on Aug 4, 2007 8:33 PM CDT reply actions  

prince fielder is anfriggin fatass
   
Now that he is back, play Matt Murton!!

by Chanman25 on Aug 4, 2007 8:33 PM CDT reply actions  

Ballgame
Phillies lose.
Tinker to Evers to Chance!

by sanantonecub on Aug 4, 2007 8:34 PM CDT reply actions  

Credit to Corey Hart.
Made a great catch, saved a home run, saved the tying run, saved the game.

What stat category does that show up in? Just wondering.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Aug 5, 2007 4:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

Right
In the scoreboard it appears as another put-out. There are things like leadership and chemistry in a clubhouse that statistics cannot measure, other than the fact that as the team plays better every player's numbers improve.

There's another school of thought that believe that chemistry comes from winning, but I don't agree. I've seen good chemistry in losing ballclubs and bad blood in winning teams (the 1977 Yankees come to mind).

by Fraggin Judge on Aug 5, 2007 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

range factor
or any other defensive measure...

by DartmouthCubsFan on Aug 5, 2007 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

That game, like I said, scares the crap out of me
They came back, rallied as a team. Scares the crap out of me.

by louslovechild on Aug 4, 2007 8:35 PM CDT reply actions  

I agree
That was a great win for them, and it will help their morale.  The Fielder 2-run dinger and that catch in the 9th inning to rob the Phillies of a home run was unfortunate.  But the season is a long one, and they play at home really well.  Hope they go on the road soon. :-)

by zevkalman on Aug 4, 2007 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

That could very well be the difference
Cubs win at home and on the road.  That's what could be the difference in the end.

In fact if we win the division THAT WILL be the difference.

When you're closer is Mariano Rivera at home and ron Rivera trying to pitch on the road you're in trouble.

I just want the Cubs to top the Bears NFC Title Game as my highlight of the year.

by puckishcubsfan on Aug 4, 2007 9:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

meh
15 of their next 23 games are on the road. The brewers are a joke on the road.

by Thelonious on Aug 4, 2007 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Give the Brewers credit
They did a great job of coming back.

Oh, well. Better "luck" tomorrow.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 4, 2007 8:35 PM CDT reply actions  

They are a good team
They gained serious confidence tonight. Serious confidence. The Phillies gave them a ton of outs, defensively and offensively, but they are good and not going anywhere, anytime soon.

Thank goodness they hit the road on Monday.

by louslovechild on Aug 4, 2007 8:37 PM CDT reply actions  

I was at a Cub game in '89
in which the Cubs came back from 9 runs down to beat the Astros and make it three wins in a row.  Lots of people said the win would give the Cubs confidence and they would no doubt go on a long winning streak.  They lost the next night and won only three of their next nine.

If the Phil's pitcher pitches well tomorrow night, the Brewers will lose.  A better barometer of how they will do are the facts that they're under .500 since May, their ace is out with an injury and they can't win on the road.  One exciting win will not fix those things.

by TR on Aug 4, 2007 8:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Momentum ....
"If the Phil's pitcher pitches well tomorrow night, the Brewers will lose."

It's obviously and exactly right, like the old adage, "Momentum is the name of tomorrow's starting pitcher."

by wrigley1 on Aug 5, 2007 7:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

They're a great team
at home.  They're pretty mediocre on the road.

They remind me a lot of the 1987 Twins in that sense, except there is no way they're going to end up with home field advantage throughout the playoffs like that Twins team got.

by Josh Timmers on Aug 5, 2007 12:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

Either that or...
...they took advantage of one of the worst bullpens in baseball.

I'm not trying to take anything away from the Brewers, I'm really not. But to suggest that this one game makes them all that more imposing is silly.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Aug 5, 2007 1:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Is Fonz Tired?
Soriano has been inconsistent lately, and there have been too many 0-fer games.  Should Lou sit him Monday or Tuesday?  It would give Murton a chance to start and let Soriano think about getting his groove back.

Unless there's an injury the Cubs will not be serving up any Pie until September.

Pie, Fontenot, Theriot and Soto up the middle ... yippie oh, oh, oh!

by SpudV on Aug 4, 2007 8:43 PM CDT reply actions  

eventually they go on the road

 We made up our deficit on the road we will regain first on the road. The Brfewers are goodbut they turn into a AAA team on the road....
"I can't be held responsible for what I personally tell my goons to do...."- C. Montgomery Burns

by yahoodi on Aug 4, 2007 8:43 PM CDT reply actions  

Go Giants!!
if Giants win, we are tied for first in wild card!
Now that he is back, play Matt Murton!!

by Chanman25 on Aug 4, 2007 9:04 PM CDT reply actions  

so?
Hank Aaron is still first in home runs in MLB history
Now that he is back, play Matt Murton!!

by Chanman25 on Aug 4, 2007 9:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

really??
not in my book
Now that he is back, play Matt Murton!!

by Chanman25 on Aug 4, 2007 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

I know he tied Aaron
but Aaron did it the right way
Now that he is back, play Matt Murton!!

by Chanman25 on Aug 4, 2007 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed,
But unfortunately, their is no denying the record book.  Even an asterik is a weak cover.

Whether we like it or not, he's done it.

Tinker to Evers to Chance!

by sanantonecub on Aug 4, 2007 9:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Last night
Last night would have been interesting if he had hit it off Maddux.  Two players who arrived in the majors at the same time and are so different.

The only thing they have in common is they are both male and pro baseball players.

I just want the Cubs to top the Bears NFC Title Game as my highlight of the year.

by puckishcubsfan on Aug 4, 2007 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Saw the weather for tommorrow
Hot and wind blowing from the south at 20 - 30mph. Im pretty certain that means its going out. So...our WTP will be aided, but Marquis pitching. We will see. Go Get Em Cubs. Hit the road in style.

by louslovechild on Aug 4, 2007 9:45 PM CDT reply actions  

Night game
Would be very unusual, but not impossible, to have 20-30 MPH winds at night.  More likely a hot, sticky night with no wind.  Much like the night games from earlier this week.
They played hard. They did their best. Move on. Their whole life isn't out in that field. It's their job. It's not an obsession.

by McHuge on Aug 4, 2007 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Today's weather forecast
Click here.
Today: Occasional showers and thunderstorms, mainly before 7am. High near 84. East southeast wind around 10 mph becoming west southwest. Chance of precipitation is 100%.

Tonight: A 30 percent chance of showers and thunderstorms before 1am. Partly cloudy, with a low around 69. West wind around 5 mph becoming southeast.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Aug 5, 2007 4:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

Had to go
to a wedding this afternoon so I recorded the game and will watch it later. Very happy they won. Hope they bring their winning ways tomorrow.
I love this team!!!!!

by sue369 on Aug 4, 2007 9:46 PM CDT reply actions  

I'll
be here tomorrow night. Hopefully I won't need to say it. :-)
I love this team!!!!!

by sue369 on Aug 4, 2007 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Al
The last pitcher to attempt his 300th win at Wrigley was Greg Maddux on August 1, 2004.  

That was one of the craziest days ever.  Maddux going for 300.  We had a new shortstop.  ANd we're in a playoff race.

This will be the 4th time I go to a game where someone can win 300.  I was at the Maddux game, the Clemens game and went to Milwaukee to see Nolan Ryan go for it.  Hopefully this will be the 4th time I went and it didn't happen.

I was ironically at the Cell when Maddux won #300.  Credit the Sox fans.  It got a nice round of applause when the news was posted on the scoreboard.

I just want the Cubs to top the Bears NFC Title Game as my highlight of the year.

by puckishcubsfan on Aug 4, 2007 9:49 PM CDT reply actions  

Correct.
Meant to say the last visiting team pitcher.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Aug 5, 2007 4:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

I was watching ESPN
I was watching ESPN and they were pooping all over themselves with love for the New York Giants and the Mets predicting New York winning both the super bowl and the world series.

Come on Bears and Cubs let's spoil their New Yorgasm!

I just want the Cubs to top the Bears NFC Title Game as my highlight of the year.

by puckishcubsfan on Aug 4, 2007 9:55 PM CDT reply actions  

The Giants
Will be lucky to win 5 games this year.
"I can't be held responsible for what I personally tell my goons to do...."- C. Montgomery Burns

by yahoodi on Aug 4, 2007 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Honesty compels me to say,
that I just love hustle, little things done right, and playing meaningful games in August.
Hey Lou, we're long overdue.

by deadcatbounce on Aug 4, 2007 10:57 PM CDT reply actions  

Regarding Theriot....
...His OBP has been fantastic in July, absolutely fantastic.  It's impressive to me because the league has had time to adjust but I am sure that many guys who were never heard from again had a month of OBP above .430.  In any event, Theriot has earned his place this year, he has speed and so far has shown pretty good OBP for the season.  If you can get on base and play defense in the middle infield spots there's a place for you on every MLB roster.  He may regress next year but at the very least we have solid bench player.

by DudeVf11 on Aug 4, 2007 11:06 PM CDT reply actions  

I look forward to watching Glavine get # 300
AT SHEA NEXT WEEK. I had intended from the start  of the season to go see him go for #300 in New York. I had to fly back to Chicago and then SF to see Maddux's #300 but that was worth it. I admire Glavine and as a baseball fan who realizes he really will be the last player to get to 300 wins I figured a trip on the #7 train and a cheap seat in the rafters was more than worth it. I may be in Chicago now for the series but I am sure Glavine can wait 5 more days to do it in front of
an adoring home crowd where I will actually root for the Mets ( not easy but as we all learned early this week it can be done).
"It's the Cubbies. There's always a vibe. It's the greatest vibe in baseball." Greg Maddux on Cub fan's optimism even after the 06 debacle.

by jessica on Aug 4, 2007 11:10 PM CDT reply actions  

I highly doubt
that Glavine is the last 300 game winner. In fact, I'm almost positive that there will be more. Yes, pitchers pitch exclusively in 5 man rotations, and get less decisions due to shorter outings these days. But on the flip side, pitching careers are lasting much, much longer than they ever did before. Sure, there has always been a few rare physical specimens who pitched into their 40s, but this is happening at an unprecedented and increasing level thanks to medical technology, increased study of stress reducing mechanics, nutrition, and greater dedication to conditioning.

While there has been some shift from the beginning of Maddux, Glavine, and Clemens' careers, I still consider this the same era, essentially (or at least close enough). We're seeing three 300 game winners in the 5-man rotation era. I see absolutely no reason why future pitchers can't match this.

"Never" is a long time. Even if we assume the mlb is only around for another 100 years, more 300 game winners are bound to arise (and it's much more likely that mlb baseball is around for several hundred more years if not longer. Let's just hope our robot masters like baseball 500 years from now).

I AM pretty confident that Cy Young's win record will never be eclipsed.

by Thelonious on Aug 5, 2007 3:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

The problem is...
... that pitchers don't win 20 games routinely any more. Glavine has five 20-win seasons (though none since 1998). Name me one current pitcher who is younger than 30 who's likely to do this.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Aug 5, 2007 4:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

well ...
Zambrano could. He could do it this year, and he won 14 and 16 for a mediocre Cubs team in '05 and an awful team last year.

by elgato on Aug 5, 2007 8:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

C.C. Sabathia
"One thing you learn as a Cubs fan: When you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth." - Joe Garagiola

by gary varsho on Aug 5, 2007 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

Those three are all possible.
However, I should note that Sabathia, Zambrano and Santana have combined for thirteen full seasons as starting pitchers (not including this year).

Among those 13 years? ONE 20-game season (Santana). You see how difficult this is becoming.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Aug 5, 2007 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Les Walrond
is only 30 and only needs another 300 wins to make it to 300.

I'm tired of the way you always leave Walrond out of the conversation of top pitchers of our time.

by Josh Timmers on Aug 5, 2007 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Of course.
If he averages 30 wins a year for the next ten years, he's got it.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Aug 5, 2007 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

True.
Yet Glavine didn't win 20 until his fourth full season, and Maddux didn't win 20 until his sixth full season. Moreover, Maddux has only won 20 twice in his entire career. I think Z, Sabby, and Johan are all capable of reaching 300 wins, regardless of the number of 20 win seasons they have, but I wholly agree that that number of wins in a season is becoming a difficult feat to perform.
"One thing you learn as a Cubs fan: When you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth." - Joe Garagiola

by gary varsho on Aug 5, 2007 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

who says you have to win 20
you seem to love round numbers. Averaging 15 wins over 20 years is 300 wins. This will still be rare, but like I said, careers are lasting longer. Winning 300 games was ALWAYS exceedingly rare, anyway.

Remember, Z won 16 games for a horrible team last year. Are you telling me that no pitcher will ever average 15 wins a season over their career ever again? It's possible, but I doubt it.

by Thelonious on Aug 5, 2007 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

How many pitchers...
... whose careers have begun in the last 40 years, and who are primarily starters, have pitched twenty or more seasons?

The answer is 15. Here's the list, in no particular order:

Curt Schilling, Greg Maddux, Terry Mulholland, David Wells, Jamie Moyer, Danny Darwin, Jerry Reuss, Bert Blyleven, Dennis Martinez, Mike Morgan, Dennis Eckersley, Roger Clemens, Charlie Hough, Tom Seaver, Tom Glavine

You can see that sheer longevity doesn't necessarily mean you can accomplish this feat. (Eckersley probably doesn't even belong on this list, as he spent half his career as a closer)

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Aug 5, 2007 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

Darnitall.
Missed one.

Nolan Ryan.

And John Smoltz gets to 20 if he pitches in 2008, but he too spent time as a closer.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Aug 5, 2007 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, it's
got to be consistency coupled with longevity, i.e. Maddux and Glavine, making it even harder to achieve.

And you forgot Randy Johnson, as well, who, if he pitches next year and gets 16 wins, will also hit 300.

"One thing you learn as a Cubs fan: When you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth." - Joe Garagiola

by gary varsho on Aug 5, 2007 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Correction
Johnson will have to pitch in 2008, as well, to reach 20 years. Mea culpa, mea culpa.
"One thing you learn as a Cubs fan: When you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth." - Joe Garagiola

by gary varsho on Aug 5, 2007 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

It seems like I always have
to chide you, Jessica....the Mets, they suck.
They've sucked since 1969. I wish evil upon them.
Glavine can win #300 next year, thank you very much. Personally, I hope the Mets never win another game and I'll pay money to press the botton that implodes Shea Stadium. Oh, wait -- Ron Santo is first in line....

FYI, "Amazin Avenue" had 1 post in today's game thread, noted at 9:15pm PDT.

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Aug 4, 2007 11:19 PM CDT reply actions  

I saw barry Bonds hit it tonight in San Diego
I hate the Padre fans. Saw many Giant fans in the crowd and the Padre fans are soo laid back they did not know if to cheer or boo. I tried to get the Cheat-er chant going - but too many fans with different agendas.

I can't wait to get back to Chicago!

Ryne Sandberg Game, June 23, 1984, he was 5 for 6, 7 RBI's

by mweil on Aug 5, 2007 12:19 AM CDT reply actions  

Cheering for Bonds in SD.
I think the Padres fans must be congratulated for "staying classy".  They didn't ruin a great moment in baseball history.

by Fraggin Judge on Aug 5, 2007 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

Just wanted to say...
That I was at that 2003 Yankees/Cubs game where Clemens went head to head with Kerry Wood.  It was probably the most amazing thing I had ever experienced as a fan of the Cubs.  The matchup, combined with the fact that the Cubs had a definite chance that year, created an unbelievable atmosphere. Wood's performance, Karros' home run, and Remlinger's strikeout of Jason Giambi with a 3-2 count, 2 outs, and the bases loaded......wow.  I'm getting chills just thinking about it.  Anyway, go Cubs!

by rambler19 on Aug 5, 2007 12:21 AM CDT reply actions  

im really startin to hate the brewers with a
passion, corey harts the biggest hack out there and somehow manages to be having a career year, and just the luck that braun comes up and is suddenly like an mvp for them. ugghh at least they hit the road soon, they cant win there
Bring back the damn cowbell!

by CubsBall2202 on Aug 5, 2007 12:51 AM CDT reply actions  

Hart
has been a pretty good prospect for a few years now overshadowed by the rest of a great farm system

he's not a hack

and as for his "career year"

tkae his 2006 2nd half and extrapolate it and you get his 2007 numbers

this is the player he is, a very good RF

by DartmouthCubsFan on Aug 5, 2007 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

i dont understand
why teams keep letting prince fielder beat them. quit pitching to his fat ass already.
Here comes the nasty leftie to shut it down in the 9th......Clay Rapada!!!!

by cubsluver22 on Aug 5, 2007 10:20 AM CDT reply actions  

off topic
but id like to congradulate one of my all-time favorite football players, micheal irvin to his induction into the hall of fame. classy speech for a classy guy. GO COWBOYS!!

by tbizzle83 on Aug 5, 2007 10:42 AM CDT reply actions  

lol
"classy guy"

i dont exactly think of guys that have spent the majority of their youth with strippers and cocaine as "classy guys"

but maybe i have a different definition of classy

by DartmouthCubsFan on Aug 5, 2007 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

im talking
about now. everyone has done things wrong in the past, he has learn from his mistakes and has a whole new aspect on life now. give people credit instead of remembering the things they did wrong over 10 years ago

by tbizzle83 on Aug 5, 2007 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I don't understand this either
Classy guy? He might have been an open book and answered all the questions every time he screwed up (unlike Terrell Owens) but classy? We all have our own opinions. He was a good player certainly, but to me, he's a shining example of what's wrong with the modern player. Live a selfish, self-indulgent public life as long as you cry and say you're sorry later. Meanwhile, the guy's lucky his wife didn't clean his clock years ago. And and as long as I'm at it, while yeah, he was a good player, a HOFer so soon after his career? He just wasn't THAT good.
Santo Forever!

by BeerCub on Aug 5, 2007 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

wasnt
that good are you kidding me? if it wasnt for his injury he could of pushed rice for some of his records. he was the 2nd best reciever of that era.

by tbizzle83 on Aug 5, 2007 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

It really bugs me that a guy like Irvin had
absolutely no trouble making it into Football's HOF, while Ron Santo continues to wait, and wait and wait.  Obviously, the baseball HOF has a bunch of tight asses running the Veteran's Committee.

Irvin was a topreceiver, but I think the guy should have been made to wait a while longer given the "standards" he and his Dallas cronies set for conducting themselves off the field.  But I guess, compared to today's crop of pro football players, those guys in Dallas were angels.  :-)

Soriano: rub two of those big bats together and you will catch fire!

by LAcarl519 on Aug 5, 2007 12:01 PM CDT reply actions  

If character figures into the HOF,
then someone had better kick the likes of Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth out.

Whatever Michael Irvin did off the field (and, yes, he was no angel by any stretch of the imagination), he deserves to be in the Hall based on his play.

"Signature must be less than 160 characters" -- Who has a name with 160 characters?

by BlueSox on Aug 5, 2007 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

I beleive the NFL HOF
does not factor in character like the baseball HOF claims to.  
Neifi Perez: Proving Amphetamines do not enhance performance

by jds2 on Aug 5, 2007 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

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