More Z Fallout
Amazingly enough, Jay Mariotti has it exactly right. Speaking of Cubs fans, he writes:
Precisely. Mike Downey got it right too:
To say of Wrigley's fans that "they just care about them" is to drive a wedge between them and yourself, which is the last thing Zambrano or anyone at Wrigley should risk doing with the Cubs in hot pursuit of a rare pennant.
Particularly when your team also has a "For Sale" sign posted out front and the new owner is going to be stuck with your five-year, $91.5 million tab.
Zambrano is going to need to do a little fancy pitching and perhaps a lot of fast backpedaling to win back the hearts of some of these fans.
Derrek Lee didn't like the booing either:
He continued:
About that, he is 100% correct. We DO understand that you're human beings and that you make mistakes. Everyone does. We are not booing you, the human being. We are not booing your effort -- we know you're giving 100%. We are booing your performance.
Here's the bottom line:
If you, the professional athlete, love the adulation and cheers and roars that you get when, for example, you, D-Lee, hit a game-winning HR (as you did on Sunday), then you have to accept the negative sounds that emanate from the assembled multitudes when your performance is poor.
It really is as simple as that. For Z to say:
... isn't right at all. You heard the boos not because "we just care about us", but because we care about you and we want you to perform better.
I'll link again to this New Yorker cartoon to illustrate my point.
That's right, Z, and everyone else on the ballclub. We DO love you. Just go out there and perform the way we know you can. Go get 'em tonight. Go Cubs.
0 recs |
175 comments
Comments
Let's ride him
As I've posted elsewhere, Z is never going to be the stopper, the consistent go-to guy, the "ace" of a staff. He is far too fragile-minded and emotional for that. His comments are an affront to fans and his team. He is pathetic. Good riddance.
Maybe paying professional athletes assloads of money really isn't a good thing after all, because would you give a 10-year old $90mil? What a mistake.
by Kegler on Sep 4, 2007 8:40 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It's going to be pretty difficult to trade him....
by PriorandAramisfan23 on Sep 4, 2007 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He isn't going to be traded.
He would be extremely easy to trade with teams lining up for him.
BTW for all the fans who claim to pay his salary, ponder this-
He will get $19 mil. If he makes 35 starts and 100 pitches a game, he will get $5428.57 a pitch. So you aren't paying much of his salary with your $40 ticket. Heck, you're barely paying for an usher.
by cubswin on Sep 4, 2007 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are kidding right?
by cubsnlinux on Sep 4, 2007 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I pay far more than you do
and disappointed, but that's about it.
by cubswin on Sep 4, 2007 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You bring up a good point....
But obviously if Z took it personally he has to know that he has sucked really bad lately. You have gone 0-6 in your last start and the Cubs took over 1st place in that time frame. Look in the mirror Z....
by HIGGY on Sep 4, 2007 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well then you don't much about finance
by cubsnlinux on Sep 4, 2007 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude
$1,600,000 X 81 home games = $129,600,000
That is one well paid usher.
by WittyUserName on Sep 4, 2007 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well dude
by cubswin on Sep 4, 2007 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand
I wasn't commenting on booing or not booing. That is a message board debate that will never be finalized. I was simply pointing out that people who claim that they pay for the players salaries are right. Most of the money generated by the Chicago Cubs comes from ticket sales, which the fans foot the bill for.
by WittyUserName on Sep 4, 2007 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Totally mixed up cause & effect
They paid him the money because looking out into the future there were few options or good options. Whether he is an ACE or merely a top of the rotation good pitcher more in line with his capabilities is immaterial to his contract, tell me what options were out there. As for trading, tell me what you expect others will pay.
by Ivy Walls on Sep 4, 2007 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Home Booing
I have been noticing over the last couple of years that there has been a definite increase in the Wrigley crowd booing the home team--even for some very minor mistakes. To me, booing the home team is something that should be reserved only for the most egregious situtations. While I don't necessarily agree with Z's comments, frequent booing of the home team does seem to show a lack of support and makes the fans look capricious.
by NDCub on Sep 4, 2007 8:54 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
maybe carlos could be a DE or LB.
by rm463 on Sep 4, 2007 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
completely agree
by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 4, 2007 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Booing Z seems as though it will only compound the problems he's having on the mound. Why not
back our ace thorugh this rough patch instead?
Those that feel the need to so vigorously defend their right to boo are obnoxious. Some more loyalty would be nice.
by tk5446 on Sep 4, 2007 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Booing is totally appropriate
Frankly, I've thought that Cubs fans don't boo enough, all things considered.
How well do you suppose Z's antics yesterday would have played in New York? Would Yankees and/or Mets fans showered him with roses instead?
Even the fans in Milwaukee were booing like crazy yesterday when the Brewers were blowing yet another game. Are they wrong?
Cardinals fans booed Kip Wells off the mound yesterday. Are they wrong?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 4, 2007 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely agree
That said, there have been instances in the last few years where I thought the booing was unjustified. Yesterday was definitely not one of those instances.
by cubsbak on Sep 4, 2007 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The booing can be overdone
If Z just went out there afterward and said "Yeah, I screwed up and I know I have to do better," I think the fans would have gotten back to his side. Fans love guys who "get it" in that way. As has been pointed out below, Wood and Dempster are good at always doing this when they have a bad day.
Now, Z is going to have go to out and kick ass on the road in his next two starts. If he doesn't, his next start at Wrigley could get ugly, at least in the grandstands.
And he has nobody to blame but himself.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 4, 2007 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I take pride
by tizzle on Sep 4, 2007 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
please elaborate on this:
in the fact that cubs fans are not like mets or yankees fans.
i truly do not understand the comment.
by rm463 on Sep 4, 2007 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
some
by tizzle on Sep 4, 2007 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
totally
by tk5446 on Sep 4, 2007 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A few more days of playing like this...
by kcjones on Sep 4, 2007 10:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All Cubs fans ask !!! Please think like PRO's
Please think during games.
- Twice in Z's last 2 game the opposing pitcher has hurt him at the plate.
- You learn in Little Leauge to pick up the 3rd base coach
3) I still go back to Soriano in the Mets Sunday night game trying to get to third base on a single hit in front of him.
Got to live their energy but we need these guys thinking as well.
Keep the faith !!!
by parrotinct on Sep 4, 2007 8:57 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Hammer
Just about everything he did the whole game cost us the game. Baserunning, reaching his hand out and losing his composure.
Lastly, trade him? No unless the right deal came, but it wont.
by Hammer on Sep 4, 2007 8:57 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Zambrano trade?
What GM in his right mind would trade for the guy? That much money for someone who's clearly unstable on the mound? Who runs a team out of an inning? That was a Shawon Dunston level baserunning mistake!
(Sorry to bring up the bad memories!)
by MN exile on Sep 4, 2007 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Disappointing
by adam316 on Sep 4, 2007 9:06 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
the problem with Z
IMO this isn't a fan base overreacting because a guy simply had a bad outing. This is a fan base showing frustration with a pitcher who has repeatedly shown an inability to keep his focus after things start going poorly for him.
He talks about how he doesn't appreciate the booing. There are certainly places around baseball where he would be getting it worse.
by mike on Sep 4, 2007 9:10 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
you got that right.
i'd like to see zambrano come-up my way and perform the way he has in front of a yankee stadium crowd. hell, they'd have him crying on the mound.
by rm463 on Sep 4, 2007 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Little wonder Arod will probably walk
by cubswin on Sep 4, 2007 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i recall...
by rm463 on Sep 4, 2007 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
who cares...
really, would any of us feel better if zambrano was only getting paid $2 mil a year?
by rm463 on Sep 4, 2007 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Athletes paradox
When Lee said he didn't like booing he was expressing a common thought that the fans are their to serve the players, there is reciprocity or two-way street, meaning poor performance might have a counter move. Yet since a player must put his (or her) heart and soul into a game, meaning their personality et cetera when they are boo'd they also will receive it personally as they also receive accolates personally.
Fans on the other hand are fanatics, they are there to see performances, results, and cheer along the way.
Zambrano is caught in his own quindry and only performance, at a level expected of him can overcome his dilemna. He is the quintessential Latin proud man, emotional and even impulsive, talented beyond many, yet fragile since his emotions are also his leveling agent. I am not condoning his statements or behavior in anyway, in fact they were as stupid as his blowing through a stop sign in the 3rd inning.
After signing the contract he is now going to think that he gave Chicago a $20-$30M discount, maybe yes or maybe no. Question what would have been his FA value based on performance over August and September to date....probably less than his agent is willing to admit.
This is now the time for Piniella, Hendry, Rothschild and Trammel to put Zambrano back together again. They will have to cuddle him at the same time tough love him, they will have to get him to focus on the moment instead of the anticipation or implications, they will have to rebuild his psyche. Fortunately for Z and the Cubs they will be on the road for his next two starts, ( Sat in Pittsburgh & Thurs in Houston) where the return to Wrigley won't be until Tues against Cincinnati, before again Z will pitch on the road in Florida and possibly the final game of the series in Cincinnati. Furthermore if the Cubs make the playoffs Z will probably start on the road against the WD winners of SD or AZ.
By that time I am expecting him to have pitched 4 quality starts.
by Ivy Walls on Sep 4, 2007 9:17 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Why
by tizzle on Sep 4, 2007 9:18 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Small defense of Z
by CyberCyclist on Sep 4, 2007 9:31 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
just a couple points
Interestingly I think the blown stop stop sign is given to the excuse that Z had made up his mind to try to score the moment Soriano hit the ball and ran with his head down. Piniella interestingly stated that Z should never had even thought about it since it was no outs and the front of the order was coming up with a ball played in front of him.
One can point to minor league instruction here where the Cubs have had a poor result in having players come up in his era with mental baseball knowledge. C-Patterson, Choi, Cedeno to name a few.
As for Z listening to Rothschild, ultimately it was Piniella's decision to yank him or not.
by Ivy Walls on Sep 4, 2007 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i do think lou should go talk to zambrano
by buckmulligan on Sep 4, 2007 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Myself
Z is the proverbial headcase. He is Farnsworth in lion's clothing.
by Kegler on Sep 4, 2007 9:33 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Aren't you mixing metaphors here?
"Farnsworth in lion's clothing" sounds almost like something out of "Silence of the Lambs" or "Joe Dirt".
by NO100 on Sep 4, 2007 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That
And yes, it is meant to be an odd image.
by Kegler on Sep 4, 2007 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ohhh ... OK
by NO100 on Sep 4, 2007 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll take that
by Kegler on Sep 4, 2007 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
IT PUT'S THE LOTION ON !
by Kinky Reggae on Sep 4, 2007 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Late, but couldn't resist mixing the movies...
by N Oakley on Sep 4, 2007 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about this Z.........
You only call us out when we do it to you, but you dont stand up for your teammates when it happens to them? To me that is "just caring about you".
by HIGGY on Sep 4, 2007 9:44 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
give the fans a clue Higgy...what is going on in
What else is going on?
You are correct, Z has not stepped up to defend others and the statement that the fans (in the singular) care only about themselves, as what else are they going to care about, they are fans there to enjoy and cheer on the winning ways, why else would they fill the stadium each day to the tune of almost 42,000.
by Ivy Walls on Sep 4, 2007 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am not sure..
To be honest, when a player has a bad game, he does not sit in front of his locker and sulk or anything like that. Most of the time they are up running around and talking with other players joking around and what not.
And to be quite honest, they dont care what we as fans think. Booing does upset them to a point but they get over it, because they have to. Z knows this city, he signed a contract here to stay here. He has been here for years and he has seen the booing, but never directed towards him. Now it bothers him - seems a little to frustrating and selfish from Z who wanted to be here so bad?
I am not sure why he said this or what made him say this. But something else that i know goes on in the clubhouse is/are the media. They are hounds in there, and he probably was frustrated by getting asked the same question over and over. (luckily i was off limits, they were not allowed to ask me anything :) ) But they are all over the place just looking for something to write about. And sometimes it is overwhelming and too much of a circus. And i am sure Z was fed up about them hounding him about his 0-6 stretch.
Other than that, the players really dont do much, some play with there PSPs or listen to their ipods or trade stories about things.
(but please note what i saw was under Dusty who was extremely laid back)
by HIGGY on Sep 4, 2007 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
those are my experiences
His ball again was flat, meaning it was not heavy late sink. Once LAD figured he couldn't throw a strike more than 50% of the time they let him walk them into a big inning.
by Ivy Walls on Sep 4, 2007 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Al, ...
by timlacy on Sep 4, 2007 9:52 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Bad Blood Now between Z & Cubs fans
Despite this bru-ha-ha, I'm still convinced that this team can sneak into the playoffs, it will all blow over in the end, and we will all be loving the guy and his emotional proclivities to death.
by JFCubFan on Sep 4, 2007 9:53 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Professional athletes are priveleged
by Kegler on Sep 4, 2007 9:54 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
you seem jealous
by cubswin on Sep 4, 2007 10:00 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually, its envy
I really think Z's game went south after he was thrown out at the plate. I got benched in HS and college for doing shit like that.
Z has to buckle down and listen to his coaches. He too often runs high pitch counts and goes to full counts unnecessarily, like before Esteban's 2R single.
by blackhawk24 on Sep 4, 2007 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ignoring Lee Crushing Z
by DudeVf11 on Sep 4, 2007 10:01 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
read through the game threads here
he hears it, he hears the negativity from the fans
by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 4, 2007 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am sure that he does.
I am not sure what has given the Cubs players the impression that they will not be booed at home? This is a childish approach to the game. In general, Cubs fans boo at things that are boo worthy, e.g., bone headed play, lack of effort, talent that does not belong in an MLB uniform, bush league behavior...The players need an attitude adjustment or they should all quit--admit they can't take it and resign. This team needs competitors and instead we get show boating wusses. I can't root for this jackass Zambrano at all anymore, except to the extent that he can help the Cubs win. If he's going to be a big baby then make a statement and trade his sorry butt in the off season.
Also, I appreciate your comments and none of my post here is directed towards you or in an angry tone.
by DudeVf11 on Sep 4, 2007 10:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zambrano's hair
by Arbusto on Sep 4, 2007 10:23 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Right on Al!
I DID boo Joe West (who not BruceFroemming alerted me to the fact he's "Cowboy Joe West"), and saved a hearty boo for the "Lethal LOOGY" Will Oh-Man!, whom I loathe.
I'm not a proponent of booing home town heroes anymore and stopped with JJones after giving much thought as I realized he really was giving 100%.
But I have my limits as well - and in this case - intead of calling out the fans, STAND UP and say, "I deserved it and I stunk!" People LOVE this here. Even Dempster gets a break when he owns up, right?
by TheEman on Sep 4, 2007 10:24 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
by Al on Sep 4, 2007 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed. If Z
by LAcarl519 on Sep 4, 2007 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So right...
by hawkeyenation on Sep 4, 2007 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think...
by hawkeyenation on Sep 4, 2007 10:29 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I can agree
by Kegler on Sep 4, 2007 10:30 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
lol, az!
by Kegler on Sep 4, 2007 10:30 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Overreacting
But some people are freaking out. Trade him?! Are you kidding? Remember, he's only 26--the emotional maturity is probably the last thing to come. Didn't you do stupid things at 26? I know I did.
But someone who said that no GM would touch him in a trade?! Give me a break. Opposing teams would line up to work it out. He's supremely talented, and he will figure out how to harness those emotions at some point. I'm not giving him a free pass on yesterday's events. Just calling for a little perspective. Come on, people. It's one game--we have a month left, and we're holding first place in our hands!
by lapetino on Sep 4, 2007 10:31 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Booing...
He has been around the last few years when I thought there was some unjustifiable booing of other players, yet Z has always mentioned his love of the fans. Yet when it turns (justifiably IMHO) against him, it's the fans who are wrong?
Hopefully 24 hours will help cool the situation, but with Z one never knows.
by Goat Whisperer on Sep 4, 2007 10:45 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The idea of booing
Players perform. That performance is rated either by cheers, ambivalence, or boos.
It's the real world.
by SyneRandberg on Sep 4, 2007 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
After Valverde's save in AZ, I said to myself I wonder what Z's going to do in his next outing. Sure enough in the 1st inning after a Fielder K he jumped off the mound, into a 360 fist pump almost as if he had to remind everyone who the biggest showboat in MLB is. Fielder ended up going 2 for 4.
Ladies and gentlemen I give you Carlos Zambrano.
by TheRamZamDLEE on Sep 4, 2007 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This issue with Z
With the exception of his 2-month run, which was excellent to be sure, Z has been the weak link in our rotation. Just look at the numbers.
by Kegler on Sep 4, 2007 10:49 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Today
- A win
- Trachsel to get me home before 11
- Marmol blowing away 3 straight hitters.
by Hammer on Sep 4, 2007 10:52 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Go Cubs Go...
by BillHoldenFan on Sep 4, 2007 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you have a chance
#2 is going to close to impossible!!
by cubswin on Sep 4, 2007 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
by BillHoldenFan on Sep 4, 2007 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is that Central or Pacific time?
by LAcarl519 on Sep 4, 2007 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ron Santo
by jimhickman on Sep 4, 2007 11:10 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I hate booing and
by sue369 on Sep 4, 2007 11:20 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Comments
Finally I don't think we should ever stoop to calling people names. Calling Z fat ass and other personal attacks isn't right. I believe it's OK to critique the players and even boo, but name calling shouldn't be allowed.
by Saratoga on Sep 4, 2007 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Passion
Z is passionate about winning and gets frustrated when his game goes poorly and complains about the fans.
Let's cut each other some slack.
by vegascubsfan on Sep 4, 2007 11:22 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
2003 changed things
That being said, let's hope Trachsel can pull one out of his you know what and get us a win today. Go Cubs!
by qccub on Sep 4, 2007 11:27 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Ditto
I'm not going to go as far as to say they "owe" us a championship, but the booing is more an effect of 100 years of futility and angst than player's shortcomings. Yesterday, Z deserved to be booed. He hasn't performed well since late July and single handedly caused the loss yesterday. His comments all season don't sit well with the fans when he says he's going to win the Cy Young or he will turn back into the dominant Z again. And then to rip the fans on top of his other comments is BS. He got his payday, now perform.
The Cubs are on the cusp of winning it all this year and Z's antics/performance will be a big part of the reason why we don't. All of Cubs fans know that this team is not like the Braves, Red Sox, Minnesota or Dodgers in the fact that if we are not the wild card or division winner, we will be in the thick of it all season long. Either we get into the playoffs or we suck royally. We don't compete for the big prize year in and year out. We are tired of it.
The Marlins win the WS in their fourth year, blow up the team and win it again 6 years later. We struggle to get to the playoffs and then only 4 times in my lifetime. The Yankees have won the WS 8 times in that span. We're tired of decades of losing baseball.
by BigJohnAZ on Sep 4, 2007 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it seems
by tizzle on Sep 4, 2007 11:32 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm not a big fan of booing
I thought guys like Niefi Perez and Jacque Jones have taken a lot of unnecessary booing while wearing a Cub uniform, but yesterday Big Z deserved what he got. It was clear that he lost his focus. I don't know where his mind was after the 3rd inning but it obviously wasn't on getting hitters out or playing baseball the way it should be played. Sulking on the mound and failing to back up home plate was the last straw. He had it coming. He was not simply being booed for poor performance, he was being booed for mentally checking out of the game.
by cubsbak on Sep 4, 2007 11:37 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I know this will not bode well with some of you,
by cubsfan4life on Sep 4, 2007 11:40 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Booooo!
But people are entitled to boo if they wish!
Another poster hit it on the head - if you pay the equivilent of $75 to see __ your favorite band, and they were out of tune, missing lyrics, sections, play for 15 minutes, what display as a fan can you show your displeasure?
Baseball and all professional sports are ENTERTAINMENT! When one signs a $91MM contract, and the bar is set very high, in the mddle of when the player is counted on the most - and they continually give you what we got yesterday - than booing is NOT unexpected nor should be considered that we mean this as a "personal attack" on the player.
And - this ain't nothin' compared to what soccer players get in Z's own country! Where refs get chased down and pummeled after games...
I mean - let the player stand up as most of us have been saying, and own-up. Not riding the fans who were instrumental in getting him his money!
by TheEman on Sep 4, 2007 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you are condoning
by cubsfan4life on Sep 4, 2007 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Booing <> jerk
I think Cub fans have shown remarkable restraint where Z is concerned. His behavior, and lately his performance, have been richly deserving of the fan's displeasure.
And if he really needs Cub fans to support him emotionally, he is doomed to a life of emotional turmoil. Carlos is a man. He needs to start acting like one and get his emotional needs met like other adults do: family, friends, and (please, God) professional help. Cub fans are, by and large, none of those things.
by BlueSox on Sep 4, 2007 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can call me a jerk for booing all you want,
by cubsfan4life on Sep 4, 2007 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe for you it adds to the frustration
by BlueSox on Sep 4, 2007 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just sayin'
by cubsfan4life on Sep 4, 2007 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"I don't have to like it/agree with it
Agreed.
by BlueSox on Sep 4, 2007 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reply -
My point was that in HIS OWN COUNTY, soccer fans are much, much worse than the mixed boos he received at Wrigley.
I was merely trying to draw a comparison with something he is very familar with - and maybe participated in, with his favorite soccer club.
And he is as obsessed with soccer as we are about baseball!
by TheEman on Sep 4, 2007 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very Well Put
by tk5446 on Sep 4, 2007 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Big Z
if he goes out and pitches well next home start the fans will be back in their corner. The fans were more pissed in the fact that the game got away so easily and no one could catch up to stop the dominoes from falling all over the floor.
The game had the feeling of being over before it was over and that most be frustrated to fans. I didnt boo and usually dont because I like to take in the fan reaction but if he would just grow up a little. Every strikeout isnt game 7 etc.
by Hammer on Sep 4, 2007 11:43 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Magic Number
Thus, the current calculation would be:
26 + 1 - 2 = 25.
I'm assuming it's just an update issue after Milwaukee's melt down yesterday.
by krummy12 on Sep 4, 2007 11:47 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Magic Number
Although the Brewers are in 2d, the magic number to eliminate them is lower (25) than it is to eliminate the Cardinals (26).
by Goat Whisperer on Sep 4, 2007 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Correct...
Anyway, this will all even out after St. Louis plays (and, hopefully, LOSES) its makeup games.
by Al on Sep 4, 2007 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Regarding Sullivan, Morrisey and Downey
Do they even know how to write something on their own? I fear that without the company talking points coming down from on high, these guys will be writing things like:
"We saw us a baseball game and it was good! All the players looked so pretty in their uniforms! Hey, the beer is good!"
by lancaster99 on Sep 4, 2007 12:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
the cubs
by tizzle on Sep 4, 2007 12:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
And the Yankee fans don't boo?
I bet a lot of the people blaming Mike Quade, the fans, sun-spots or whatever for Zambrano's melt-down were many of the same fans that blamed the contract woes for messing with Zambrano's psyche in April and May. The diva is emotionally immature and he needs to grow up.
by rlpete on Sep 4, 2007 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
See you're pointing out the biggest problem of all
by Wreckard on Sep 4, 2007 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ZBORING
When they win they get great food .. women and
when they lose the lions....
Think of this ... what Phil Rodgers said in his
power rankings ...
11. Cubs (12): Steve Trachsel seems like a luxury item until you realize that he's pitching better than any of Lou Piniella's five starters. That's a little scary.
Hey Big Z Always has been an immature Kid... and
not showing much progress.... if we could just
get Scott Olsen from the Marlins we could have
a Juvenile rotation.........
by FlaCub on Sep 4, 2007 12:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Hammer
I specifically remember losing it completely in the right field bleachers at the end of the 2004 season. The Cubs were blowing it bad as we all know and there was a pivitol bunt that C.Patt couldnt get down. Regardless, I screamed at Corey the whole get about getting a bunt down etc.
Fairweather fans...especially with the Cubs, if the Cubs were to win the whole country would be Cub fans, except for the haters.
by Hammer on Sep 4, 2007 12:36 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Boo...
That being said when the booing started there were many in attendance that stood and cheered.
I don't condone the booing, but understand it. Just as I understand Z's comments after.
Anyway, hopefully Steve can right the ship tonight,(Can't believe I had to write that sentence.) and we can put yesterday behind us.
At least the Brewers and Cards lost too...
by Tangled Up In Blue on Sep 4, 2007 12:40 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
booing
by Diggs247 on Sep 4, 2007 12:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Disagree 100%
It's the players like Ohman who I don't understand booing. They aren't very good, booing him is just like rubbing it in. Zambrano (unless he is injured) is better than he has been showing for the past month. If anyone deserves booing, he does.
by rlpete on Sep 4, 2007 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and booing...
while i understand everyone's frustration, mine included, booing players serves absolutely no function, save self-appeasement for those engaging in the act.
in my view, the only time booing is warranted is when there is a lack of effort, which i don't believe is the case with the zambrano.
by rm463 on Sep 4, 2007 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree.
That's all it is.
by Al on Sep 4, 2007 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well...
i am as displeased and disgusted with zambrano's performance as anyone, but when considering the emotional fragility of zambrano, booing him very well may be prove to be counter-productive.
by rm463 on Sep 4, 2007 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or...
He needs a shrink, not cub fans sitting on their hands gritting their teeth.
by BlueSox on Sep 4, 2007 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
bluesox
by rm463 on Sep 4, 2007 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know you are not advocating
He's just plain not going to get it from cub fans or any other fans when he performs poorly.
by BlueSox on Sep 4, 2007 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying it does serve a purpose
by rlpete on Sep 4, 2007 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When my kids screwed up
When a boss chews out an employee who is constantly coming in late and doing poor work, that employee usually improves their work habits.
Athletes,and especially pro athletes, have gone through numerous coaches who have chewed their ass. It's a process that isn't new to anyone.
Booing is the fan's method of telling an athlete stop screwing up. It's really that simple. And Z knows that if he wants to hear the cheers, he has to step up. Until he does, he'll hear more boos. It's his choice.
by tharr on Sep 4, 2007 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
by Diggs247 on Sep 4, 2007 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, maybe Ohman was a bad choice
by rlpete on Sep 4, 2007 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Momentum
by laporte cubs fan on Sep 4, 2007 12:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The past
But this year the differene is Lou. I think Lou will be able to keep this team focused. He'll address what needs to be addressed in the clubhouse and lead a team on to the field today that is ready to win todays game and but yesterdays debacle behind them.
Here's to a victory today!
GO CUBBIES!
by El Borto on Sep 4, 2007 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Dustystill were here
I don't think that's going to happen with Lou.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 4, 2007 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Lou weathered
At least I sure hope so.
by TheEman on Sep 4, 2007 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
From your keyboard
by BlueSox on Sep 4, 2007 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, he SACRIFICED
by lancaster99 on Sep 4, 2007 12:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
And the only place
by rlpete on Sep 4, 2007 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No...
And then they would have thrown flowers and offered to have sex change operations so they could have Zambrano's children!
That's how understanding New York fans would have been. Really, we should try to follow their example!
by lancaster99 on Sep 4, 2007 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can I make that sacrifice too, please?
by BlueSox on Sep 4, 2007 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I gave the benefit of the doubt to Z
I also gave him the benefit of the doubt when he punched his own catcher in the dugout, and then later beat the sh*t out of him in the clubhouse.
I also gave him the benefit of the doubt when he pitched poorly this year--people were saying he was emotionally down because he hadn't been signed to a contract yet.
He's got his contract now, he's got his money now, his former catcher was traded away, and his team is in first place.
But running through a 3rd base coach, not covering home and having a sissy-fit, and then dissing the fans is pretty indicative that Z better grow up quickly....
With behavior like that, even if he were 20-0 now, he wouldn't get enough votes for a Cy Young.
by zevkalman on Sep 4, 2007 1:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The heel and the hero
by adam316 on Sep 4, 2007 1:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Well - I see your point
But I understood it when some did.
I still strongly advocate, as others echo, that a "sitting down and talking" to him, is just enabling...
He is so amazingly talented, and a wonderful athlete, but will never attain the greatness he seeks without emotional control which he simply cannot maintain as things are.
by TheEman on Sep 4, 2007 1:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Al: you typing, "Jay Mariotti had
Your line gave me a good laugh out of a tough day.
I await the apology from the Z-man. I hope he grows up a lot in the next 4 days. We need him to stay within himself when he is on the field for the remainder of the season!
by LAcarl519 on Sep 4, 2007 1:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
a couple thoughts...
Also, maybe the fan's mindset has changed here recently, but hasn't managements' as well? Even before this past off-season they have paid quite a bit of money in the past few years to make this a winning team. It was not that long ago that there were players who retired or left for other teams because they were disappointed in the efforts of the owners/management and their apparent lack of willingness to pay the money/get the players. It's a little bit of a chicken or egg argument.
I was at the game yesterday and did not boo, although I understood those that did. I also felt bad for Z because I knew that he was as upset as any one of us that was there, or watching, that he did not perform better. I do not agree with the comments he made afterwards, though. My mom had a coach in high school who would constantly tell them they should not be concerned when he yelled at them, that he yelled because he cared, that they should be more concerned when he stopped yelling.
Maybe booing is not the best reaction, but it has been done for a long time and is done by fans of many different teams... I guess I see it as one of the few ways fans can convey their disappointment and/or try to light a fire under the team in their own way... I agree with those who have said that we have been pretty patient with Z here lately...
Finally, I wanted to respond to the person who thought someone was condoning chasing after an umpire and beating him up. I do not believe that was what he was saying at all. Instead, Z - not only as a passionate/emotional person himself - but as someone who comes from a country that has extremely passionate sports/soccer fans should be able to keep the booing in perspective and also sympathize with it... I think there was once a story about him staying up or getting up in the early morning hours to follow his soccer team. I would be curious to see how he acts when he watches his team play. I would bet he yells and screams more than any person there yesterday did.
by lji001 on Sep 4, 2007 2:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I know he wasn't really condoning it,
by cubsfan4life on Sep 4, 2007 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think he was condoning it...
It's still wrong, of course.
by Al on Sep 4, 2007 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
YES! YES!
Indeed - he is as obsessed with his fave "football" club, as we are with our Cubs!
Maybe more.
And you can be SURE he's done some booing!
by TheEman on Sep 4, 2007 2:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
There was only one
Hugh Hollins
But, he was in New York, and I was here.
;-)
by TheEman on Sep 4, 2007 2:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Hammer
Great reference and it is burned in my memory, phantom call if I ever saw one.
by Hammer on Sep 4, 2007 2:26 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
ray king
by drodd on Sep 4, 2007 3:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow.
And have you seen him lately?

Frightening. It's his second go-around with Milwaukee -- they actually got him from the Cubs for a minor leaguer who never made it, in April 2000.
by Al on Sep 4, 2007 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What is the due date?
by LAcarl519 on Sep 4, 2007 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tears are running down my face...
by Al on Sep 4, 2007 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maternity leave
by No Southern Belle on Sep 4, 2007 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's carrying
by sue369 on Sep 4, 2007 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the King's daughter is called a...
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 4, 2007 5:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heres my take
I like his fire. He is a man who wants to make the big plays. This is the type of guy who you want at the front of your team. It simply just didn't work for him yesterday.
by VicVega on Sep 4, 2007 3:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
For clarity purposes
"If by some miracle he had actually scored on that play, he would have been given many accolades for the decision."
Sorry for both the lack of clarity and the run-on-sentence.
by VicVega on Sep 4, 2007 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
To me
by tharr on Sep 4, 2007 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't agree
Sorry. Its a pattern of the Cape-wearing Z not being able to emotionally handle it when something doesn't go right.
It is much deeper than him simply just being able to "get the job done" yesterday.
by TheEman on Sep 4, 2007 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
However I still like the fact that he is a man who tries to take things into his own hands. Excessive pride can indeed be a huge downfall. I would much rather have him playing his hardest than not.
He wants to win and is trying, which is enough said. The only concern I have is that this is a "team". He needs to for example learn to rely on the 3rd base coach. I think that in an attempt to make himself Super-Z-the-world-dominator he lost sight on playing good baseball.
by VicVega on Sep 4, 2007 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the throes of a pennant race
And if you do decide to do that, and it doesn't work....
...then a real adult would have sucked it up and stopped having hissy-fits...and pitched a good game from then on.
by zevkalman on Sep 4, 2007 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree completely
This is nonsense about trading him though. I still feel confident that he is trying his best when he is on the mound. When the best does come out of him, he is the ace we know and love.
by VicVega on Sep 4, 2007 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think
by tizzle on Sep 4, 2007 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ding, ding, ding...
by cubsfan4life on Sep 4, 2007 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you are wrong.
Z continues to try to hit 5 run home runs and throw 4 out strike outs. One of these days he will throw his back out. He is an injury waiting to happen. Let's be happy he didn't plow into Martin on that bone-headed play at the plate.
But I do think Lou will use this tipping point to get Z under control for the stretch run. Onward Z, and onward Cubs! Lots of work to do!!
by LAcarl519 on Sep 4, 2007 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
by VicVega on Sep 4, 2007 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In a strange way, I think it will.
We are all cheering for the guy. He is a great competitor and only wish the best for him. Everyone wants him to channel his energy into his winning and "contained self" the rest of the way.
by LAcarl519 on Sep 4, 2007 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lets
by tizzle on Sep 4, 2007 3:31 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
<sigh>
by BlueSox on Sep 4, 2007 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who knows,
by JFCubFan on Sep 4, 2007 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
by BlueSox on Sep 4, 2007 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only a
by TheRamZamDLEE on Sep 4, 2007 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
News Report: Zambrano will apologize -- Tribune
by zevkalman on Sep 4, 2007 3:52 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
2 cents
by bigzaccountant on Sep 4, 2007 3:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
King v. Prince
by Goat Whisperer on Sep 4, 2007 4:26 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Carlos is Carlos
"I've seen him twice in August. He just seems like he's slinging it up there. With the control and the way they've been treating him like a BP pitcher when he leaves the ball up, it seems to me he has a physical concern and might be favoring his back or shoulder. While he can get it in there at 96mph his mechanics do not allow for the tight release he had when he dominated hitters. In spite of what's being said by Pinella and Lee I don't think he's going to return to form and the Cubs chances rest on recognizing this and putting him on a short leash. St Louis and Brewers are not insurmoutable and even with an average finish the Cubs can get in. They significantly reduce this chance with sure loss starts like this. Finally, its too early to tell but did Hendry cripple the future prosects for this team by ignoring his inconsistency and immaturity and making him the centerpiece for the next 5 years."
I still think the guy is trying to pitch with some sort of injury. Carlos is always going to be emotional on the mound, neither Lou or anyone else is going to change that. His emotion wasn't that big of an issue last year when he was doing a terrific job. Yes, he is self-centered (like 95% percent of all pro. athletes), but he is still young (26) and is going to get better. Please no more talk of trading him, remember what happened with Lou Brock, Burt Hooton, and Bill Madlock, and others?
As far as this year is concerned, I say let him sit out his next start and see what happens.
For all his faults he is a fierce competitor. If his arm is o.k. then he should come back strong, but if I am correct in my belief that he is hurt, then it won't matter.
by Ken Hubbs on Sep 4, 2007 4:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Something else to remember about Z
by cubstoseriesby100 on Sep 4, 2007 7:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
We boo because we care about them?
To me, booing is a reaction to someone who's unliked, or is the reaction to horrible play. I have never heard boos and thought, "Look how much everyone cares about that person!"
by JDay on Sep 4, 2007 7:40 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Carlos .. Get it together, boss ..
Come on, boss .. this just ain't right. This isn't an issue of you being our little brother and we're kicking you when you are down - it's that you aren't doing what we KNOW you can do and haven't been doing it for far too long. DEAL WITH IT.
You have the support of the greatest fan base in the world, the Cubs Nation and you are dissing those who vocally made their displeasure with your subpar performance made known .. what is that about? I thought when you walked off the field pointing to your head and tapping your ears that your gesture was body language saying "I hear you" and that you understood that there were a lot of your fans letting you know they were highly disappointed and upset. Heck, that's what I thought .. and I hoped you be taking that for the criticism that it is for not playing to the dazzling level you are capable of.
Apparently you rethought that after you walked into that locker room and proceeded to rip us saying we were only into ourselves.
Z, grow up. Now. Spare us the drama.
The Cubs Nation has always been behind you. We are now. Let's get that silly expression of frustration in perspective, Ok? Just dispense with the whining, focus and get out there on your next turn and pitch in a Third New Season, ok?
by cubnational on Sep 4, 2007 8:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

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