It's Not Getting Any Ethier
As if you didn't dislike Dodgers OF Andre Ethier enough already, after his game-winning three-run HR off Ryan Dempster that gave the Dodgers the series with a 7-4 win over the Cubs, I'm going to tell you a little story about him about something that occurred this morning at the ballpark.
You all have seen me write about Jenna, my daughter Rachel's friend who was Bat Mitzvah two weeks ago. Today, Jenna's mom came to the ballpark on her day off to get some Dodger autographs that Jenna had wanted. She got Mike Lieberthal to sign, a couple of others, and then went to Russell Martin, who wasn't signing very much, and Ethier, who she said at first she didn't even recognize.
Ethier told her: "I'm only going to sign as much as Martin does." Martin had signed, at that time, only one piece, so Ethier signed only one piece. Then Martin signed a few more, so Ethier did, too -- but only for the men waiting, not for Jenna's mom, who was the only woman around. She asked him, "Aren't you going to sign for me?"
His response will stun you. He said, "I already have five girlfriends, I don't want another one." She responded, "I don't want to be your girlfriend, I just want your autograph." But Ethier continued: "I'm just a Southwestern kind of guy, I like to rope my women in." (He's a native of Phoenix, Arizona.)
Stunned, Jenna's mom handed Ethier's card to one of the men in line and Ethier signed it (a pretty weak-looking signature, too, I might add).
Now, maybe Ethier thinks he was being funny, but it strikes me as being extremely rude. Oh, and in case any of the five girlfriends is reading this: you're not the only one!!!
I had to get that out of my system because Ethier's home run -- which just barely made the first row of seats and was definitely wind-aided -- has dealt a serious blow to the Cubs' playoff hopes. Tied now with Milwaukee, and only a game ahead of St. Louis after their apparent blowout win over the Pirates today (they're leading 16-4 at this writing, and it just went into a rain delay in the 9th inning), with 24 games left, the Cubs aren't done, not by a long shot.
But they had better start winning. Now. They are going on the road, starting tomorrow, and so are the Brewers and Cardinals. Road records:
But they have to have better hitting. On a day when the wind was howling out to left field, only Alfonso Soriano could hit the ball out of the ballpark; he accounted for all four RBI and two of the six hits with his two HR, the second of which gave the Cubs a 4-2 lead going into the 8th inning, a lead they should have been able to hold on to. Bob Howry gave a run of it back on Matt Kemp's no-doubt-about-it HR in the 8th.
Then you all know what Dempster did. I haven't had a chance to look through the game thread comments and I can only imagine what you all said about Dempster. Here's the bottom line: it's his third blown save of the year. It's a spectacular one. These things do happen, even to the best closers (example: Takashi Saito, who dispatched the Cubs 1-2-3 in the 9th and who has 37 saves with a 1.31 ERA, also has three blown saves this year). It's just that this is the worst possible time for this to happen (bad enough, that those left after the blowup in the LF bleachers started chanting, "Marmol! Marmol! Marmol!").
Does this mean "Dump Dempster?" No, it doesn't. He could easily go back to saving games -- his last blown save was June 10 in Atlanta. What has to happen is that the Cubs need to start putting opponents away, and not giving games away -- Derrek Lee absolutely, positively has to make the play at first base on James Loney's ground ball just before Ethier's HR. (He was originally charged with an error -- justified, I thought; it shouldn't have been changed to a hit.) Had that play been made, with first base open and one out, Ethier might have been walked and Dempster would have faced Tony Abreu with runners on first and second and one out. The resulting ground ball could well have been a game-ending double play. Even at 6-4, the Cubs might have felt they had a shot at getting back into the game in the 9th, but Dempster's bad outing turned horrid when he wild-pitched in the seventh run.
All of this ruined a fine, fine outing by Jason Marquis, who retired the first fourteen hitters he faced before Loney's HR in the fifth inning. He threw two more effective innings before departing for pinch-hitter Cliff Floyd, who walked. Sam Fuld ran for Floyd and scored his first major league run on Soriano's HR. Marquis deserved better.
Oh, and Daryle Ward got picked off again, in the first inning (apparently, replays showed he was safe). I was talking to Dave about this and he said sometimes big, slow guys like Ward try to get a little more of an edge leading off a base than they really should, because they know they're not fast, and apparently they feel they need this to perhaps score from first on a double. That said, big, slow guys like Ward have to pay extra attention to pitchers, particularly veteran pitchers like Derek Lowe, because otherwise they're going to get picked off again and again. The Cubs could have, since there were two walks issued by Lowe in the first inning, had a big inning and maybe put the game away early.
And as if that weren't bad enough, I left the ballpark without my umbrella (it didn't even rain today -- might as well have, given the result of the game). I tried calling Jeff, Howard and Jon to find out if any of them had taken it. Only Howard would answer his phone. He said he didn't have it. Which was true -- Jeff did. They threatened to put it on eBay and leave the auction only open to BCB members.
Now seriously. How much would any of you have bid on a used, six-year-old blue and white golf umbrella?
Maybe I shouldn't ask those questions. They met me at my car and the umbrella is now resting comfortably in the back. We all needed the comic relief after today's disaster. It's not over -- far from it -- but I can't imagine tonight's Cub flight to Pittsburgh is going to be a very happy one.
Till tomorrow. Keep faith and hope, because this race, I believe, may go down to the very last day, or even beyond.
Note: Aramis Ramirez' foul ball, which missed being a HR by about twenty feet (and which would have given the Cubs a 6-2 lead and maybe kept Dempster out of the game), broke a window on this bus parked on Waveland:

Click here for my scorecard from today's game (don't forget that you may have to click on the image in Firefox, or on the lower-right corner in IE, to expand the image to full size)
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296 comments
Comments
I initially thought...
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 5:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The play should have been made, and...
by Al on Sep 6, 2007 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The fact
by cubsbak on Sep 6, 2007 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Come on.....
by IOWACUBSFAN on Sep 7, 2007 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It didn't appear
And, as regarding the pick-off...I was sitting in the dugout box, second row with a perfect view of the play. Ward's foot was back on the bag before the tag.
Sorry, I don't remember the umpire in question -- but he was wearing sunglasses during the play. (The sky was overcast in the first, the lights had been turned on.)
However -- he took the sunglasses off between innings. I'll let you, dear reader -- connect the dots.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Sep 6, 2007 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of pulled-in infields...
Yeah, that strategy works all the time.
by Al on Sep 7, 2007 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not an error...
Lee is a great defender but that was not an error on Lee's part, IMHO.
by DrCrawdad on Sep 6, 2007 11:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's wrong with site clock, Al?
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 5:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
And...
I'm not sure how these times are accounted for. I'll see if I can ask the web gurus to fix this.
by Al on Sep 6, 2007 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you're right
by Matt Allison on Sep 6, 2007 5:50 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You LEFT the UMBRELLA ?
of the West in the WIZARD OF OZ. The umbrella in question is HUGE. I think it covers his whole back row. Anyway sorry you were so shaken as to have left it but glad Jeff got it back. Might have been fun if it put it on eBay though. We coud have given the profits to D Lee's charity.
by jessica on Sep 6, 2007 5:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
When I got home....
Today I was in the upper deck with my dad and didn't see the ball hit the bus, but did see the bus after the game.
At least I got to spend some quality time with my dad today and we got to celebrate our upcoming birthdays -- just the two of us.
I can't even talk about today's game. When I think about it I want to cry.
by No Southern Belle on Sep 6, 2007 5:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm following Lou on this
While I hate losing the game. And those Blanekety blank blanking Cardinals are now one back, I'm not THAT upset about this one. It sucks.... no doubt.... but the pitching has still been solid. And if Lou feels there's another winning streak in this team then I do to. and a 12 out of 13 or 15 out of seventeen against Pittsburgh,Cincinatti, and the Cardinals is entirely possible.
So I will let the doomsayers and the Dempster bashers have their day. ( I sure hope someone calls him Dumpster.....So funny and original when they do that. Mature too). They seem to enjoy days like these. I'll look forward to playing the Pirates....
by yahoodi on Sep 6, 2007 6:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
People like to announce their iqs
People said he'd suck before he started closing and don't want to admit they were wrong.
I love how this Marmol love is going on. Heck I like the kid a lot. But you don't throw a guy who's never closed into the job in September unless you have to.
Remember LaTroy Hawkins was a lights out guy in the 7th and 8th too.
We all know how that turned out.
I'm not saying Marmol is a closer. In fact if I were a betting person I'd bet he will be our closer next year with Dempster either wearing another uniform or starting.
I would like to see the Cubs keep Ryan as a closer if they keep him although if they move him to the rotation he could always switch back if Marmol fails.
by cubstoseriesby100 on Sep 6, 2007 7:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shouldn't forget
by Matt Allison on Sep 6, 2007 6:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Could be mixed
by cubstoseriesby100 on Sep 6, 2007 7:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Howry
DmL
by dmlichte on Sep 6, 2007 6:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think if Ethier was joking he would have
by cubsfan4life on Sep 6, 2007 6:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Disapointing loss
by wild bill on Sep 6, 2007 6:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the bus picture
by adam316 on Sep 6, 2007 6:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Ethier is a playah... (in more ways than one)
Then during batting practice today (yes, I went inside today - value price tickets have that effect on me), he was jawing pretty good with fans in right field. Seemed to be mostly in good fun, though he was pretty cocky. Fans were telling him he sucked (wow - that's original), and he would tease them by fake-throwing balls into the seats. He did throw one up, but made sure it was way up and out onto Sheffield - I'm sure just to antagonize the fans that were riding him.
So I had to laugh to myself as I'm listening to the radio in the 9th inning when Ethier comes up with runners on 1st and 2nd, no outs. Both Pat & Ron were expecting Ethier to bunt to move the runners over.
Ha!!! No way does this brash, cocky, smartass of a player lay down a bunt - it wouldn't be manly enough for him.
Sure enough - no bunt. Just a back-breaker of a home run. Ouch!
by ballhawk on Sep 6, 2007 6:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Bullpen alternatives/options
Today, since our starter completed the seventh, we had Howry-Dempster...I'm wondering if we might consider Marmol to close some, to give Dempster a break now and then or if he doesn't get the job done.
Looking forward, this leaves Wood w/o a meaningful role...heading into '08, I can't see this continuing, meaning Dempster could be a good trade candidate and bringing a nice return..>make Marmol/Wood the closer.
They have been hurt by lack of a reliable lefty..Either is a lefthanded hitter you could second guess Pinella on that if Eyre/Ohman were guys you could go to the bank on.
The Cubs are good enough to win as constituted, good enough to win the Central anyway.
by writerinwrigley on Sep 6, 2007 6:26 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Marmol should be used...
I'm tired of the defined "roles" in the bullpen. Each game is different, and requires different personnel. If Marmol was available there, I'd have gone with him to get the win.
by SouthernCub on Sep 6, 2007 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely agree
by cubsbak on Sep 6, 2007 6:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seconding that Agreement
by ms9av on Sep 6, 2007 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, but that's not the way...
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 8:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeabut...
But i totally agree with you about Lou using Dempster in a non save situation. He has to stop doing that, even if he needs work, it never seems to fail that he goes in, in a non save situation and the following day we need him.
If people want to compare Lou and Dusty i think the bullpen is where you can do it. Lou totally mismanages our pen. One example is using Marmol in a 10-2 game against the Rockies. Why?
by HIGGY on Sep 7, 2007 6:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Al you really
Fans, keep your chins up. We are still in the hunt. Does not matter if we are tied for first or at this point of the season two games out. We are with in striking distance.
Truth be told though, this lose really hurts.
by wild bill on Sep 6, 2007 6:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
we
by tbizzle83 on Sep 6, 2007 6:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Just Venting ---
But the time has come to vent.
We can find all kinds of reasons why the game was lost. We fault Ward for getting picked off -- inexcusable. Like Brenly said last night -- a good ballplayer keeps his head up -- he doesn't turn his head after a ball or strike at the plate and lose concentration. For God's sake, we all know that Ward is not going to take a huge leadoff, he is not going to steal, he is not going to confuse the opposition with his blazing speed. He just plain lost it -- he did not pay attention to what was going on and got picked off by the catcher. Bottom line -- he screwed up.
But we lost because our closer did not do what he is paid to do -- he gave up the tying and winning runs.
Let me ask all of you a question --- do you feel comfortable when Dempster enters a game when we are winning by a run or two in the ninth inning? Let me ask all of you a second question -- would you rather have Marmol or Dempster pitch when the game is on the line like it was today? If you can honestly say and I do mean honestly say that you would rather have Dempster in the situation that we saw today rather than Marmol, I need to hear a rational explanation.
The statistics tell us that Dempster has only blown three saves this year. All of them were real eye openers. I was at the one in Atlanta in June. Most of us saw the one against the Mets and sat back in disbelief.
Then today -- another implosion. And how many other times has he put men on base and escaped.
Dempster is an accident waiting to happen. If you do not believe that Marmol should be the closer in games like today, I feel sorry for you. Marmol should be our closer -- hands down. The oppostion fears him -- just look at the results.
With two men on base, don't we all think that Marmol should have been in the game with Ethier at the plate?
Dempster is not the man -- he does not strike fear into the hearts of mortal men.
In these last 23 games, Marmol needs to be the closer not Dempster.
If Lou continues to use him in these types of situations, we are doomed.
I have been a Cubs fan for well over fifty years and feel that I have some insight. You may not like what I have said but I have to vent.
We can win this thing -- but not with Dempster as our closer and with our best pinch hitter Ward playing right field.
We all bitch about the Deadbirds and their savior Ankiel. But where is our Ankiel? He does not have to be a resurrected pitcher. We need some of our guys to save us -- someone to get a hit when we need it instead of another double play or called third strike.
We all want this team to win -- we die everytime they lose -- we need to win more than two games in a row -- but we also need some smart decisions by both our manager and our players.
by ceegeewow on Sep 6, 2007 7:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That's why Lou is manager
He's not dumb enough to go to another closer in a pennant race when he blows his first save in just under 3 months.
by cubstoseriesby100 on Sep 6, 2007 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm comfortable with Dempster closing.
Neither does Mármol. He fails sometimes. If I recall correctly, he started somewhat shaky the 7th inning Wednesday night. However, because Mármol is not throwing in the 9th inning, there is time for him and the team to recover. Dempster doesn't have that luxury.
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dempster threw on Wed. night...
Lou should have gotten someone else up once the game got out of hand, thus saving Dempster for today.
by Al on Sep 6, 2007 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Glancing at Dempster's gamelog
In EVERY SINGLE one of those previous back-to-backs Dempster was just as effective on the second day as he was the first and in many of those back-to-backs he was MORE effective the second day. The June 10th, 11th, 12th, and 13th appearances are an interesting example. On June 10th he melted down against Atlanta, giving up 3 runs (he hadn't pitched in 3 days before that appearance). The next THREE days he didn't give up a run, saving a 2-1 game against Houston (the 1-game makeup), pitching a perfect inning in a 5-3 loss to Seattle, and saving a 3-2 game against Seattle.
In his time as a reliever Dempster has historically thrived with more work. In short, there was no reason why Sweet Lou wouldn't expect a decent performance from Dempster in a back-to-back situation. Dempster is not the kind of reliever that needs to be "saved". As I recall, the general consensus around here was his struggles last season were due to inactivity. Now he's getting too much work? I don't think so. He just blew this one plain and simple.
by cubsbak on Sep 6, 2007 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent research!
Now back to your regular programming.
Good job...
So how 'bout us all talking about a Cubs win, say 23 hours and 20 minutes from now?!
by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not up for Marmol closing
It's another to do it in the 9th.
Dempster has been pretty good for us. He last blew a save June 10.
I'll take a closer who goes from June 10 to Sept. 6 without blowing a save any day of the week.
He's one of the reasons we're here.
I blame him for the meltdown, but I also blame Lou for using him Wednesday night. I blame Lee for not getting to the ball. I blame Howry for not shutting the door on the 8th.
I blame the offense for not scoring more.
by lancaster99 on Sep 6, 2007 7:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Finally someone makes sense
Latroy Hawkins.
by cubstoseriesby100 on Sep 6, 2007 7:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My thoughts exactly.
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 8:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
by cubsbak on Sep 6, 2007 8:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No.
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 9:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But
by cubsbak on Sep 6, 2007 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I follow the team.
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 9:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not EVERY game
by cubsbak on Sep 6, 2007 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
His pitches were high...
Dempster was effective pitching in consecutive games earlier in the season and after his DL stint. But it's September, late in the season, under the summer heat, and human beings tire easily under these conditions.
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 7, 2007 8:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure
If you want to blame the manager for everything that goes wrong with the Cubs that's certainly your prerogative. Unfortunately in this case the facts don't add up.
by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am defending Dempster.
Remember, the numbers you cite are from earlier in the season and his appearances take a toll, as they would on any human being. It's up to the manager to use his bullpen with care and save the closer in September for save situations. For instance, look at what happened to Torre last season for using Mariano Rivera too much.
In other words, I don't blame the manager for everything that goes wrong. As a fan, I just hold Lou accountable for those things that are part of his responsibilities, like the lineup and using the relievers.
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 7, 2007 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So if that's the case
by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If anyone thinks Dempster should be closing...
He has poor control and can't work out of situations with K's because he can't strike anyone out anymore and he pitches to contact.
I said last week that Dempster should not be closing and Marmol should be given the opportunity and that Dumpster would blow one within the week and as usual, I was right again.
by lemon20pie on Sep 7, 2007 12:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
dempster...
in any event, when considering dempster's save percentage, his ERA becomes almost inconsequential especially when considering that a closer's primary duty is to preserve (save) the lead.
fundamentally, it really doesn't matter if dempster gives up a run, here or there, so long as he records the save.
by rm463 on Sep 7, 2007 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like how some folks call others clueless...
What I hear here from the Dempster dumpers is he shouldn't be closing but not once has there been a feasible plan-B.
We have a "Marmol to close" campaigner in here but no forthright understanding how Marmols' current role (a more than 1 inning middle of the game stopper) is going to be replaced.
Will Marmol be the closer of the future? Likely. Will he be put in the role exclusively now, like some here suggest? No. If you've watched Lou all season you would know he doesn't make these knee-jerk reactions.
Just once, I'd like to come on here and not see so many ledge-jumpers when 1 game goes wrong.
And please spare us the "if we lose the division title by 1 game speech". There are already more than a dozen of those candidates this season.
by blackhawk24 on Sep 7, 2007 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you really want to avoid the
by billybuck on Sep 7, 2007 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is the last good team the Cubs face..
by CubFaninCA on Sep 6, 2007 7:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Biggest game of the season
This team has shown a resilliency this year.
Has anyone noticed they seem to not get down by bad games but also not up after good games?
by cubstoseriesby100 on Sep 6, 2007 7:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Here's some fun 2003 stats
They beat the Red Roosters two in a row to finish that wonderful 4 of 5 game series. Then they swept the Schlitzes. All that time, however, they only remained a .5 game up.
Then they beat the French Canadiens 4-3, with Big Z getting the victory. But because the Astros played on the Cubs' off-day, the Cubs and Astros were tied.
Then we lost two games to the Frenchies, including a 3-2 loss where Alex Gonzalez hit into a double play in the 9th, scoring Alou, but ending the threat.
The Astros swept the Red Chickens, who by this point were rolling over like the dogs they are, and we only take two of three from the Reds, leaving us 2 games back on Sept. 14
The last game was a killer. Zambrano throws 129 pitches, and gives up one run in the top of the ninth. Loses 1-0. Cubs get 7 hits, can't bring any of them across.
Bottom 1st: Alou and A-Ram consecutive strikeouts with two men on.
Bottom 6th: Bases loaded, Gonzalez grounds out.
Lowest point of the season. Two games out. Can't muster a single run in support of Big Z.
And guess what happened the rest of the way...
Hold on, kiddies. The ride is just beginning.
In 2003, we were 1.5 games out on Sept. 20 and 2 up on Sept. 27.
We've got a ways to go.
And Dempster will be one of the ones who gets us there.
by lancaster99 on Sep 6, 2007 7:22 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, but...
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 8:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And...
by lancaster99 on Sep 6, 2007 8:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But they are playing better...
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 9:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pack up the tums
We had a bad few games. Cardinals and Brewers had a good few games.
We all hit the road. We are 500 on the road they couldn't beat my nephews tball team on the road.
How's this for Dempster? If the Brewers are on the road they'd be better off with him.
I read some bozo on another site say the Cubs don't deserve to win the division and this is a Cubs fan.
Whoever wins the division will deserve to win it. And you can make a serious argument the Cubs deserve it the most as of now because they've dominated the season series against both teams.
by cubstoseriesby100 on Sep 6, 2007 7:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
What is our record against the Pirates
by mgfabc on Sep 6, 2007 7:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
dumpster makes me want to PUKE!
by CubsBall2202 on Sep 6, 2007 7:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Serenity Now
Can't get nervous this time; I think I got half my gray hair from the '03 drive and what happened in games 6 & 7.
Ok boys, get your butts to the steel city and win tomorrow night. 1 game at a time. How's that for an old, tired cliche'?
by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 7:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Mental Makeup ??
I do not want to be in that situation again and it will happen again. It is time to grab this situation by the nuts and get the job done.
Do any of us really care about the closer of the future, about what happened last month, last week, or today? No --- it is what is going to happen tomorrow, Saturday, and the rest of the season. Marmol has not done what Dempster did today -- maybe he will. But I for one fear that Dempster given the chance will do it again before Marmol given the chance will do it for the first time.
by ceegeewow on Sep 6, 2007 8:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hell with mental make-up?
Besides, who's gonna be your guy in the 5th-7th innings to take Marmol's place when he closes? There is none, not one single guy.
What's next? Going back to 2-3 inning relievers?
Too much of the sky-is-falling thing.
Dempster has to go out there the next time, say in about 24 hours hopefully, put this out of his mind and do the job.
by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 8:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
I bet he answers "Dempster".
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 8:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now...
This is what drives me nuts. Every time a single event costs the Cubs a game, there's always ledge-jumpers, and no plan-B.
Marmol is being groomed for the closers' role; that will be oh-so apparent say come Feb 18th or so when "pitchers and catchers report".
I think I'm gonna go get another beer and listen for my brain aneurysm.
by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mental ??
What does mental makeup have to do what allowing hitters to reach base?
It is about the ability to get the job done. Not throwing hittable balls down the middle of the plate and getting behind in the count and forcing you to throw those hittable pitches.
How many of Marmol's pitches are hittable?
And again --
just because you have used a certain pitcher in game saving situations day after day, does not mean that you can't use the other guy (Marmol) in certain situations. Are we afraid that the usual closer might get pissed off because he is not used everytime a game is on the line. We are constantly looking at numbers and matchups. Why can't we for once say -- this is a spot where a guy like Marmol might be the best option.
Why does it have to black and white -- red and blue? Why can't we have the option like we did today to put the guy in who has been "lights out" most every time we have used him.
by ceegeewow on Sep 6, 2007 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You still haven't provided...
Sometimes games are saved in the 5th and 6th innings.
It's funny that ONE PITCH is causing this entire dialogue. AND since this isn't game #162, please spare the speech about losing the division title by 1 game. 'Cause there are a dozen-plus of those to go around.
by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 8:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's nut cuttin time folks
Throughout the remaining schedules etc., the team who plays the best will win this thing. 04 should have been a good lesson, as the Cubs has a cake walk schedule, but basically imploded the final two weeks.
Which team is going to take this thing by the balls? I can see scenerios where any of the three can take it.
by MPH73 on Sep 6, 2007 8:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
But we cannot deny...
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Playing well?
The Cardinals split a series with a mediocre Pirates team, and got blown out in the two losses.
So remind me who's playing better?
by Al on Sep 7, 2007 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
playing better?
regardless to whom and/or how they lost is of no consequence. moral victories, at this point, provide no solace whatsoever.
by rm463 on Sep 7, 2007 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
correction
by rm463 on Sep 7, 2007 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right-on!!!
Not a good stretch for them. Not at all.
And the Cards still got series left with Philly and the Mets, and the Brewers.
Patience, patience. We play one team above .500 the rest of the way.
by HIGGY on Sep 7, 2007 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Facts.
Cubs 5-5
Milwaukee and St. Louis 6-4.
The latter is a better record, thank God not by much.
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 7, 2007 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Still No Answer
Read the numbers --
He's a veteran --
Marmol hasn't been there before --
I will ask once again --
Who do you want to close with the game on the line in a save situation in one of these last 23 games? Marmol or Dempster?
Do you honestly believe that Dempster offers the best chance? If you do, be happy with your decision.
Veterans be damned -- I want the guy that I honestly believe has the best chance of shutting down the opposition. Just look at his numbers and I mean take a hard look. Marmol is the guy -- not Dempster.
It's like walking the plank -- how many times do you need to stand out there before you take one misstep and you get eaten alive? I for one do not want to go there to begin with and I want Marmol to save me -- not Dempster.
by ceegeewow on Sep 6, 2007 8:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
OK, if Marmol closes...
Does that role move to Howry? How about 5th and 6th inning situations? If Marmol is the closer, you're gonna bring in Howry to do what Marmol's done? Then that means Dempster is an 8th inning guy.
Remember there were a couple games that in the middle innings, Lou went to Marmol, and for more than 3 outs. His reasoning? If I waited until the 7th inning, there may not have been any game to save.
Marmol has 2, maybe 3 inning capability; he's a recently converted starter and a strong kid. I like that luxury in case a starter can't go 7 innings. The Cubs don't have another guy, perhaps except for Howry that could do that.
Sorry but I don't believe Lou is going to shoot from the hip and change the bullpen routine after Demp's 3rd blown save in 28 chances. 25/28 isn't that bad.
This is a job best left for spring training, especially if the roster has any notable moves during the off-season.
by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Spring Training ??
Just like today. There are two dozen games left in the season.
I understand your looking back at what Marmol and Dempster have done over the past two months. If we look close enough at Dempster's saves I am sure that we can find many of them when he qualified for a save that was not like today -- a one run lead with three outs left.
We are not looking at a season here -- we are looking at less than four weeks.
In a given situation, like today, I ask once again -- who offers the best opportunity for the save? Marmol or Dempster? This is not hindsight -- yes we lost and I might be accused of it. However, I asked myself this question well before Dempster trotted out to the mound.
Who would I rather have out there in the 9th? My answer was Marmol. Based on what I have seen Dempster do throughout the season, I personally think that Marmol is the best guy we had at that time to do the job.
Somebody questioned why Lou used him on Wednesday. So what -- he used him. In the 9th today, can you honestly say that you would rather have seen Dempster in than Marmol. Just look at Marmol's numbers if that is what the stats guys want you to believe. Dempster is not a shut down guy -- he is a "let's hope he holds them" guy. Marmol is a shut down guy. Can he fail? Sure -- but again -- how do you like our chances with Dempster vs. our chances with Marmol?
by ceegeewow on Sep 6, 2007 8:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Situational? Possible
Until there's another put-out-the-fire guy who can also go 2-3 innings, then a blanket statement of Marmol being a closer simply won't work.
I'd still go with Dempster. Changing a line-up (or in this case, relievers' role) everytime something goes wrong does not bode well for team stability.
by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 8:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right.
Tell Lou. He changes the lineup every night and makes it worse every time.
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 8:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But how often is it...
The lineup is a different slant. The unit as a whole isn't clicking like we thought.
by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 8:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Today pretty much stunk
phat
by phatass on Sep 6, 2007 8:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Where We Are --
However -- lets take it one step further. Since we are where we are -- what do we have to do to get to the finish line and be on top?
Several things -- hit with men on base, get quality starting pitching (and I don't think that three runs in six innings is quality. It equals an ERA of 4.50 which is not quality in my mind).
And -- bunt like good little leaguers do; make rountine plays in the field; and once in a while the not-so-routine plays. Finally, a closer who gets the job done; not one who not only can't hold the lead but gives up the winning run as well.
by ceegeewow on Sep 6, 2007 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I haven't seen worse than today.
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well there was
Good point, though, about being in first.
phat
by phatass on Sep 6, 2007 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damn disappointing ...
LRRF
by Littlerock Rynofan on Sep 6, 2007 8:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I felt worse after the Mets game.
by mgfabc on Sep 6, 2007 8:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Me too maybe
by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That wasn't a blown save,
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 7, 2007 12:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I always wondered about this
by NC Cubs Fan on Sep 7, 2007 8:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 8:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Scott Eyre...
by Al on Sep 7, 2007 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
One of the many
by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I felt worse today...
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 8:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Loony over Dempster....
Why did he pitch last night with an 8-2 lead. No reason.
Where was our gold glove first baseman? He makes the play (rightly called a hit, but one a gold glover should make) the odds of seeing that wind aided first row home run drop to nil. Oh, can anyone hit besides Soriano?
I'll take a closer who goes three months without blowing a save----any time and I'll be cheering for him the next time he comes in and gets the save.
by Reverend Jim Ignatowski on Sep 6, 2007 8:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Standing ovation, Jefe.
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 8:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually.............
He started with two strikes on the lead-off hitter, Martin, and after a ball, Martin slapped a pitch that was up and out of the zone to RF for a single.
The next batter, Loney, is down 0-2 and rolls over the top of a pitch that Lee just couldn't flag down.
Now Ethier. Dempster starts him with a strike as well. Unfortunately Ethier managed to get the next pitch up in the jet stream and the wind blew it out.
When you look at this, Dempster came in throwing strikes and was ahead of every hitter. He could have been out of the inning 1-2-3, but instead wound up wearing the goat horns.
I can't accept him coming in and ball-fouring everyone, but I'm okay with this outing because he threw the ball well. Sometimes the results don't reflect the effort.
by tville on Sep 6, 2007 10:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
After seeng
by cubsbak on Sep 6, 2007 10:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I totally agree!
by LAcarl519 on Sep 6, 2007 11:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great post.
by deadcatbounce on Sep 7, 2007 7:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait a minute!
18th in MLB
His 3.88 era is AMONG THE WORST in the League.
For a Closer, for Pete's Sake!
Weighted against his peers, he is middle of the pack.
So - it could be worse, but don't let the save percentage numbers give you too much of a chubby.
Today's was the tough one.
Its all even again!
Save %90
2-5 Record
Ks/9, 6.85
Whip 1.30
BA .215
by TheEman on Sep 6, 2007 8:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
There are just a few...
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup, Dempster blew it
Kinda of wish we had the Rivera of the '96-'00 era but we don't. But what we have isn't that bad.
Funny thing...all this can change in less than 24 hours.
by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 9:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, when compared to his peers
If that is very good for you that maybe you're being to ez on him.
I think he'll bounce back - but his splits show he's .50 era worse on the road than home.
The team JUST NEEDS TO START HITTING!
And it would help...
We need a Rick Ankiel! NOT a Craig Monroe.
by TheEman on Sep 6, 2007 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yup I am being easy on him
by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oddly, the thing that convinced me
Talk about a Mitch Williams moment.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 7, 2007 12:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Think I remember that game...
Not only did he walk the bags full, I think he even walked in a run - to cut the lead from 2 runs to 1 run - only to get out of it.
Yes, the mental makeup is important. An artifact that is lost on some of the folks here.
by blackhawk24 on Sep 7, 2007 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just disappointed....
I realize that Ward should have been called safe but the call didn't go our way. We all read the article about him being sorry but this close to playoffs, we need to be more carefull on the bases. Remember Soriano getting picked off a few times very early in the season. I think this took a little bit of the wind out of our sails for that inning today.
Derek has always been stellar on defense and should make the plays but he has also come through for us when it mattered.
The one I can't let go is Dempster. I know that he has been pretty good all year but today was huge. We are going to be facing some very stiff competition in the next few weeks, hopefully months, to come and we need to shut down a game like this. Bottom line is that he consistantly allows base runners on when he is in.
I can't blame one player or the other but we need to get it together and , as Al said, start winning now.
Anyone going to be in Pittsburgh this weekend?
by 1060 W Addison on Sep 6, 2007 9:10 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Just win tomorrow
Well that list had almost all of its entries (10 of them I think) in Apr-Jun. Well this is #11. They just have to go out there tomorrow and play well.
Hate to use the cliche' of 1 at a time but that's what it is.
by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 9:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a pretty good team
A couple of players haven't been playing as well as they should and a couple have been playing better than expected. The team has come together as a team and been able to win games that people didn't expect them to win.
This is not the best Cubs team ever, but it sure is an enjoyable team, especially after last year's team. Stick with it. We all know that baseball is about probabilities. Anything can happen.
phat
by phatass on Sep 6, 2007 9:36 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm probably one of the few that expected them
However if they win the division by just 1 game like in '03, then it won't be all that bad. The first step would have been taken.
by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I certainly hoped they'd be better.
Last year this team was, on this date, 18.5 games back from first place.
That's one hell of a turnaround.
phat
by phatass on Sep 6, 2007 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what to do?
by ryan797 on Sep 6, 2007 9:50 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
If...
by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what happens if its down to the wire?
by ryan797 on Sep 6, 2007 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then the Cubs had better
by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 9:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It depends on what the Cubs do with
I think we'll be rooting for the Cards.
phat
by phatass on Sep 6, 2007 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
On further thought
Really, it's up to the Cubs right now to write their own destiny.
phat
by phatass on Sep 6, 2007 10:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't imagine booing Ethier....
by DudeVf11 on Sep 6, 2007 9:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Dempster in back to back games
He has pitched back to back in 14 games covering 15 innings. Today were the first runs scored against him during the entire season. So to claim Lou should not have used him because he threw 9 pitches last night just doesn't make sense.
by tharr on Sep 6, 2007 9:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Cubs have the easier schedule
by ryan797 on Sep 6, 2007 10:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Easier Schedule???
They have the worst record among Brew, and Cardinals, against our own Division.
You can lie to yourself all you want, but the fact is that the entire schedule, from here on out, is gonna be hard as hell for them.
Each and every game.
It is slipping through their grasp right now.
We'll all see how it plays out. I had them as a below .500 team. I'm HOPING it doesn't end like that.
by TheEman on Sep 6, 2007 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd feel much better if
by SackMan on Sep 6, 2007 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very demoralizing
by qccub on Sep 6, 2007 10:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Here's your "easier schedule" Theory
by TheEman on Sep 6, 2007 10:26 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Eman, take out the Marlins sweep
I would term the Cubs' performance against the Reds, Pirates and Astros to be mediocre. If you believe it won't get any better, you must also then believe the Brewers won't improve their road record in their 13 remaining road games from its current putridity.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 6, 2007 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right, Bruce
Hey - we're all gonna see how the team responds in the next - what - 22 days?
by TheEman on Sep 7, 2007 8:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Theres other teams i would much rather not vs
by ryan797 on Sep 6, 2007 10:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I must say I'm surprised
This thread has some rational, logical posts. I don't see how you can beat up on a guy who hadn't blown a save in three months, and who had a bit of bad luck to boot. Unfortunately for him (and the Cubs), this was a case of bad timing. Better to blow one now than in, say, Game No. 161. (And to whomever cited Howry's allowing of the eighth-inning homer, good job. The back end of the pen has been exceptional for months. They were due to fail. Again, bad timing.)
I disagree with Al in the thinking this does damage to the Cubs' postseason hopes. As far as I'm concerned, it's come down to a 24-game season. Forget what the Cubs, Brewers and Cardinals have done to this point. Whoever plays the best from now until Sept. 30 is going to win the division.
I think the Cubs have the edge in talent and in schedule. That doesn't necessarily mean they'll win it, but if they don't, they'll have nobody to blame but themselves. The "hardest" part of the Cubs' schedule is basically over. The Brewers and the Cardinals still have some tough tests ahead.
I think the team is showing signs of coming out of this offensive funk. I also think that if Z pitches last Monday like Z usually does, this game today becomes an afterthought.
The point I'm trying to make is that right now, for all intents and purposes, the Cubs, Brewers and Cardinals are 0-0. It's going to go down right to the bitter end, perhaps even the last day of the season. (Not unlike 2003, when the Cubs wrapped it up on the penultimate day of the season.) Now's your chance to abandon ship. If you don't think you can handle the next three weeks, you're free to go. No hard feelings.
Otherwise, buckle yourselves in and get ready for a wild ride.
I will be in Pittsburgh this weekend -- I'm flying out tomorrow afternoon -- to see it for myself. My first games since the series in Milwaukee in June. Don't know what the Internet situation will be there, but if I can, I'll check in.
Go Cubs. Go all the way.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 6, 2007 10:38 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You are right
It's going to be very stressful, I think. A good 6 game road win streak would be really nice right about now.
phat
by phatass on Sep 6, 2007 10:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
NBF: May your trip to Pittsburgh
by LAcarl519 on Sep 6, 2007 11:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, LACarl
I'll be hoisting a Yuengling beer (or four) to toast all of you and, with hope and luck, a Cubs sweep. (Two out of three would be OK, too.)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 6, 2007 11:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have a great
by sue369 on Sep 7, 2007 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Several issues with your post...
(2) ANY loss does damage to postseason hopes. That concept should be very simple to understand, since the team that wins the most games gets to the playoffs (i.e., the team that loses the fewest).
(3) what does "they'll have no one to blame but themselves" matter? I think the whole point of the "doom and gloomers" is that the Cubs are blowing it. For example, we just lost 3 of 4 at home in a pennant race. That's a bad thing. St Louis struggled with Pittsburgh, and we still lost ground.
(4) "if Z pitches like Z usually does" - Z's ERA this year is 4.35. If he pitches like usual, we MIGHT have won. Z has been incredibly mediocre on average this year, and terrible in his last 6-7 starts. That's reason for concern.
I want the Cubs to win, but they are going to have to play much better than they have the past 5 weeks to have a chance, because St Louis has been much stronger lately and Milwaukee seems to have turned the corner with the return of Sheets.
by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 7:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
BRUCE! KNOCK IT DOWN, BABY!
I gotta hand it to LaRussa - I just don't know how the F he does it...
Simply amazing.
by TheEman on Sep 7, 2007 8:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
to hell with larussa!
by rm463 on Sep 7, 2007 8:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's obvious how LaRussa does it
He's had two great runs in his career, and both of them have been tainted by steroids or HGH.
Canseco and McGwire and God knows who else on the A's, which choked in the playoffs anyway, and then McGwire, Ankiel, and probably Rolen and Edmonds on the Cards.
by lancaster99 on Sep 7, 2007 8:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Than is absolutely pure
so EVERY year when his Cardinals have either WON the Division, World Series, or been right there, his team was on performance enhancing drugs?
That is total BS!
How about some credit to Walt Jockety, LaRussa, Duncan, and the farm system that has also supported them with some decent picks while the Cubs gave us shit.
by TheEman on Sep 7, 2007 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
THAN=THAT
by TheEman on Sep 7, 2007 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Check yestaerday's thread.
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 7, 2007 8:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No Honorable Mention for my posts? LOL
by BigJohnAZ on Sep 7, 2007 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why do all of our top position prospects
We have to watch the Brewers produce guys up and down the lineup that knock the cover off the ball like Sexton, Hardy, Hart, Fielder and Braun... and watch the Astros come up with guys like Berkman, Ensberg (who sucks now), Tavaris and Pence... and watch the Cardinals come up with Pujols, Polanco, Drew, and now Ankiel. It absolutely disgusts me.
We end up going through C-Pat and E-Pat... Choi, Cedeno, Pie, Bobby Hill, Derrick May, Brooks Kieschnick , Gary Scott, Jason Dubois, Devid Kelton, Kevin Orie, Julio Zuleta, Brant Brown, Tyler Houston, Doug Glanville, etc. etc. etc.
For the love of god. Next time we have a top prospect, just trade him while everyone else still thinks he's good. PLEASE. I'd have done Pie for Griffey Jr. in a heartbeat.
by SackMan on Sep 6, 2007 11:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Theriot
They wasted a good 2 or 3 years of this guy's career by forcing him to switch hit in the minors... so his batting average and on base % looked like crap.
by SackMan on Sep 7, 2007 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the Cubs miss the playoffs
by MPH73 on Sep 6, 2007 11:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
pie
by CZ38 on Sep 6, 2007 11:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There has been one common thread
The one guy who has discipline (Theriot) was almost given up for dead, because he didn't qualify as a 5-tool guy. Bottom line, they can't keep missing the boat on these guys.
by MPH73 on Sep 6, 2007 11:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A combination of factors
The second is, frankly, having one of the worst type of fan bases in baseball. (And this is the big problem). The Cub fan base tends to be overly demanding, impatient, and believes the hype, and then when the prospect doesn't immediately play to the level of the hype, they turn on the player and the complacent Cub management then dump the player.
by frustratedfan on Sep 6, 2007 11:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd like to see
I'll bet a lot of the teams have similar stories.
phat
by phatass on Sep 6, 2007 11:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not the teams that contend
by MPH73 on Sep 6, 2007 11:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, I'll bite
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 6, 2007 11:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They built strength up the middle
I know Williams is done, but he contributed for many many years. When you have the two most important fielding positions (catcher & SS) develop to be stars out of your farm, you have something to work around.
by MPH73 on Sep 7, 2007 12:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Several...
by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 6:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
I'd love to know all these great prospects that Cubs fans have run out of town because they're too demanding and impatient. What a crock.
by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 7:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
as i've said before...
it's bordering on ridiculous.
by rm463 on Sep 7, 2007 8:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't forget...
by rm463 on Sep 7, 2007 8:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The objective of the comparison:
And the same guys come right up from the minors and are successful right away from day 1. While our guys rarely achieve any success.
by SackMan on Sep 7, 2007 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just heard on ESPN that the Cards
by Mapmaker on Sep 7, 2007 12:02 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Baseball Tonight
I can handle the Brewers winning the division. If the Cardinals win the division on the back of Rick F. Ankiel, even I might jump off the ledge. :)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 7, 2007 12:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
JUST BEAN HIM ON MONDAY
by SackMan on Sep 7, 2007 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damn right
Today, of course, beaning him after the streak he's been on would probably earn the pitcher a suspension. The game is weighed way too much toward hitting, and this ridiculous run by a former pitcher is a perfect example.
by danimal15 on Sep 7, 2007 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let Ohman do it
by SackMan on Sep 7, 2007 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
HAHAHA!
LOL
by TheEman on Sep 7, 2007 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
current
by ARAM FOR MVP on Sep 7, 2007 12:05 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 7, 2007 12:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Yankees are now
But what matters is right now. The Cubs are tied for first and the Yankees won't likely win their division (they might get the wild-card, though).
phat
by phatass on Sep 7, 2007 12:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where do you think
Also, I do believe the are leading the wild card, and will likely be dangerous in the playoffs.
by MPH73 on Sep 7, 2007 12:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, you're probably right
In my defense, it's very difficult to guess any team's abilities in a different division.
phat
by phatass on Sep 7, 2007 12:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the Yankees were in the NL Central...
by blackhawk24 on Sep 7, 2007 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And apparently Ankiel is juicing as well.
by Mapmaker on Sep 7, 2007 12:10 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Not really.
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 7, 2007 8:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i really
btw, i love this site. Al, you are great, and I look forward to reading your reports everyday
by ARAM FOR MVP on Sep 7, 2007 12:19 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually, this thread seems to be free
I can't wait for tomorrow's game.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 7, 2007 12:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ethier only signs for men ?
Why ? Because every guy who loves women....loves more and more women.
Only a gay guy would limit himself to 5 admirers.
by coral on Sep 7, 2007 12:30 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
If this whole Ankiel thing is true
- This feel good story of the year is completely gone
- Ankiel should be suspended for 50 games (well past this season)
by Chanman25 on Sep 7, 2007 6:24 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
As another poster said (and I agreed)
by danimal15 on Sep 7, 2007 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nothing says 'get in a guys head'....
by blackhawk24 on Sep 7, 2007 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
JUST BEAN HIM
by SackMan on Sep 7, 2007 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wind Blowing out yesterday & Lou or Joe ???
Certainly guys need rest, but with the wind blowing out where were our bats ??? on the bench.
A-Ram , Murton (who hits a lot of wanring track flys), Soto, Floyd. They were on the bench.
Lou has been speaking in the post games about the wind always blowing in. Well the wind was blowing yesterday and we had our singles line up.
I sit and often wonder where the Cubs would be right now if Joe Girardi was leading the ship.
by parrotinct on Sep 7, 2007 8:03 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I was just thinking the same thing.
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 7, 2007 8:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blame the manager
This team hasn't hit for power all season and I don't think it's Lou's fault. Lou's not responsible for the significantly diminished power from Lee, Ramirez, Soriano, Jones, Floyd, etc.
by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree...
The lineup was built with the expectation that Lee, Soriano, and Ramirez would each be 30+ HR guys. Right now, Soriano is the only one fulfilling that concept (given that he missed about a month of the season, he'd be right on 30 HR pace). And the secondary guys (Floyd, Jones, and Barrett) were supposed to provide SOME power.
Unfortunately, Jones and Floyd have provided basically no power to the lineup, and 2 of the big 3 haven't been up to snuff in the power department either. When 4 of the 5 haven't hit for expected power and the one who has hit for power has been injured, it's hard to blame the manager.
by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Soriano's diminished too
by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Soriano not really diminished...
It's only compared to last year that Soriano is really incredibly underproducing. If the expectation was to match last year's production, then I'd argue the expectation was unrealistic.
by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In other words...
by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
great analysis, bababenti
by danimal15 on Sep 7, 2007 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was just looking at Lee's
by BigJohnAZ on Sep 7, 2007 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed...
by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
by BigJohnAZ on Sep 7, 2007 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually...
by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right about his career BB's
by BigJohnAZ on Sep 7, 2007 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Less steal attempts
by SackMan on Sep 7, 2007 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OH. Plus he's a dummy on the basepath
by SackMan on Sep 7, 2007 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He seemed to run ok
by BigJohnAZ on Sep 7, 2007 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh. Ooops.
Lee's gotta pick his spots to steal.
And he's gotta start crushing those 1st pitch fastballs thrown for strikes... and stop looking at the called 3rd strikes.
by SackMan on Sep 7, 2007 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You said it!
by BigJohnAZ on Sep 7, 2007 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not a manager
by BigJohnAZ on Sep 7, 2007 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Based solely on this season...
Theoretically, Lee is the perfect #3 hitter. He has power, yet can also get on base in front of the cleanup guy.
Also theoretically, this team should have been able to withstand a power draught from Lee, because Ramirez should have been able to pick him up, and our #5, #6, and #7 hitters should all have been stronger than the league average (picture Floyd from 2005, Barrett from last year, and Jones from last year). Unfortunately, we've gotten a power outage from Lee AND our #4-7 hitters have underproduced.
by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree
by BigJohnAZ on Sep 7, 2007 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think it is managerial...
by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Other than the BB...
by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
His slugging
by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dempster worst game - not yesterday
That is the game to remember.
Ohman was on fire in the 8th striking out the side and the Dem blew up.
Its hard to loose a game like yesterday when you know you left your best releif pitcher on the bench. Marmol.
However excluding Wednesday when was the last time we won a walk over game ???
by parrotinct on Sep 7, 2007 8:07 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
True, but at this time,...
BTW, several posters note that Dempster was a victim of a bad pitch and the wind. True in part. His pitches were high even when the target was low. He had a bad day. He's still a good closer.
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 7, 2007 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Soriano's 3R HR
by park on Sep 7, 2007 8:42 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Not really.
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 7, 2007 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
how dare soraino...
sheesh!
by rm463 on Sep 7, 2007 8:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unbefrickinglievable
by lancaster99 on Sep 7, 2007 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
bad pitch homer
by danimal15 on Sep 7, 2007 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
by park on Sep 7, 2007 9:34 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You're right...
People seem to forget that it's precisely Soriano's free swinging mentality (i.e., chasing bad pitches in hitters' counts) that has resulted in so many strikeouts and bad outs in big situations.
The question is whether Soriano can be effective if he had better plate discipline. Of course, there's really no reason to speculate, because he's not likely to develop good plate discipline anytime soon. He is what he is at the plate. He's going to have some impressive hits (HR and 2B) on bad pitches, and he's going to have plenty of bad outs. It just comes with the territory with the guy.
by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
by park on Sep 7, 2007 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's wrong
by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Strikeouts are not that bad if you're...
by blackhawk24 on Sep 7, 2007 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you ignore his career .839 OPS?
I'd argue that he's succeeding in spite of himself. His approach at the plate is really poor, and if he had better plate discipline he might be even better. Imagine how many bases he'd steal if he took the walk in 3-1 counts rather than swinging wildly.
Soriano is an anomaly. He does pretty well at the plate in spite of very high K rate and very poor BB:K rate. But he'd actually be an elite hitter if he could establish some plate discipline. As is, he's probably overvalued for his HR/SB stats, relative to his overall performance at the plate.
As I said, though, it's an irrelevant debate, because he's not likely to become a hitter with good plate discipline anytime soon.
by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure
by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree...
It doesn't mean he's not still fairly productive, ti just means he could be even more productive. That's all.
by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fairly productive?
by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, he's definitely better than average...
by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In other words...
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 7, 2007 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He also
by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
At the risk of getting on a huge tangent...
When measuring his productivity, I look at his OPS, which is the most highly-correlated with actual run production of any stat.
But I think this is a semantics argument about the relative value. Again, the point of the thread is that Soriano has a terrible approach at the plate. His talent lets him still be productive, but he'd be more productive (and maybe somewhat worth the money) if he actually improved his approach.
People were busting the guy's chops for suggesting Soriano had a bad approach on that pitch. Had he had a better approach, the result on that pitch would have been less productive (walk instead of HR). But the results of his AB over the course of a season would probably be more productive.
But, again, as we've both noted, his approach isn't going to change.
by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
slight edit...
by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He also
While you denigrate his approach, it's also an approach that has allowed him to be productive in the major leagues. Not fairly productive. Productive.
You can crow about OPS all you want, but you're basically just saying that you're unhappy with his OBP because his slugging is very good. While team dependent to a degree, runs and RBI's gives you a window into how a hitter performs with men on base and how well a hitter runs the bases. Soriano's runs and RBI's have stayed pretty consistent over the last 5 years (with the exception of 2004, an off-year in which is OPS was also down significantly) even though he played for 3 different teams in 2 different leagues.
by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd argue...
by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is what he is
by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I completely agree...
This whole thread has since become an exercise in arguing on the margins ("fairly productive versus productive", definition of productive, etc), when the reality is that we agree on the key points: (1) his approach is not generally ideal; (2) despite this, he remains productive; (3) though he's productive, it very well could be that a better approach would make him more productive (like Pujols); and (4) it doesn't really matter because he isn't likely to change his approach.
by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would've much rather had
Than Soriano for 8yrs $136 mil.
But all in all... no left fielder is worth $16+ mil/yr.
by SackMan on Sep 7, 2007 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me too
by BigJohnAZ on Sep 7, 2007 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually... not in reality
Dunn's $10 mil/yr is more in line with what Carlos Lee and Soriano SHOULD be getting paid.
by SackMan on Sep 7, 2007 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
chiming in...
Now its, "We have a HR hitter coming up in Vitters".
When Sori has EVERYTHING clicking, he is an upgrade from the future sumo wrestler, CLEE.
But we didn't get that this year.
- sigh -
by TheEman on Sep 7, 2007 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
last winter when the cubs were shopping
by philadelphiacub on Sep 7, 2007 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
PUT THE MAGIC NUMBER BACK UP NOW!!!!!!!!
Who's with me people??
by Kinky Reggae on Sep 7, 2007 9:40 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Probably the worst part about yesterday...
As has been said here many times, Pat is the best. But I think even lately it's gotten better, especially with each home run call. For my money it's the best home run call in the game today.
I know there was a lot of complaining about Ron and how he is such a fan, but I think that him being that way completely fits the broadcast this year.
I think I'm just rambling because I don't want to talk about the game yesterday. That and I haven't talked about this with anyone who really understands. No one else really gets when I talk about how I get goosebumps when I listen to Pat and Ron call a big home run. Of course, I have friends that are fans of teams like Boston, so that is to be understood.
by hawkeyenation on Sep 7, 2007 9:57 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Okay....
by hawkeyenation on Sep 7, 2007 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Our guys need a hypnotist!
by SackMan on Sep 7, 2007 10:38 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Or maybe someone
by blackhawk24 on Sep 7, 2007 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
THE SEASON STARTS TONIGHT !!!
The season starts tonight!!!
The Cubs control their own destiny !!!
Hopefully they play smart / efficent b-ball !!!
15 & 8 over the next 23 should get us in & finally the schedule is in our favor
by parrotinct on Sep 7, 2007 10:53 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed...
Even Lou said 1 more hot streak.
Hey, the clubhouse is loose, guys still appear to be having fun, no one is uptight.
Time to back to what they were doing in June and July.
by blackhawk24 on Sep 7, 2007 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're Damn Right
The time is NOW. The season indeed starts NOW. This is what it's all about. I may not be Dane Cook but damnit, it's time to realize that there is only ONE October. Here we come.
by krummy12 on Sep 7, 2007 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cubs will make the World Series
by TipsyMcStagger on Sep 7, 2007 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So does that mean that you have two tickets
by cubsfan4life on Sep 7, 2007 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We'll see...
by TipsyMcStagger on Sep 7, 2007 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We've already seen the beginning of a collapse
by Mapmaker on Sep 7, 2007 11:09 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Advice to you.
by Fraggin Judge on Sep 7, 2007 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you think signing DeRosa, Lilly and
by billybuck on Sep 7, 2007 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ps. I've had to watch he FLORIDA MARLINS
by Mapmaker on Sep 7, 2007 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right. It's all Hendry's fault. The Cubs
by billybuck on Sep 7, 2007 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Enjoy your rainbows and cotton candy day
by Mapmaker on Sep 7, 2007 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're the one that called it "the beginning
They might not win the division, but I consider it rather fortunate that we still have meaningful games in Sept. I still like their chances to win the division. Soory if that's too rosy for you.
by billybuck on Sep 7, 2007 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fortunate to still have meaningful games in Sept?
by Mapmaker on Sep 7, 2007 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm only trying address you statement that
by billybuck on Sep 7, 2007 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've been a Cub fan for 37 yrs.
by Mapmaker on Sep 7, 2007 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My pessimism is not just on yesterdays loss
by Mapmaker on Sep 7, 2007 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Although I want to rip Ankiel a new one
by Jayo525 on Sep 7, 2007 11:33 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
We can't really know for sure that
by cubsfan4life on Sep 7, 2007 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

by 