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It's Not Getting Any Ethier

As if you didn't dislike Dodgers OF Andre Ethier enough already, after his game-winning three-run HR off Ryan Dempster that gave the Dodgers the series with a 7-4 win over the Cubs, I'm going to tell you a little story about him about something that occurred this morning at the ballpark.

You all have seen me write about Jenna, my daughter Rachel's friend who was Bat Mitzvah two weeks ago. Today, Jenna's mom came to the ballpark on her day off to get some Dodger autographs that Jenna had wanted. She got Mike Lieberthal to sign, a couple of others, and then went to Russell Martin, who wasn't signing very much, and Ethier, who she said at first she didn't even recognize.

Ethier told her: "I'm only going to sign as much as Martin does." Martin had signed, at that time, only one piece, so Ethier signed only one piece. Then Martin signed a few more, so Ethier did, too -- but only for the men waiting, not for Jenna's mom, who was the only woman around. She asked him, "Aren't you going to sign for me?"

His response will stun you. He said, "I already have five girlfriends, I don't want another one." She responded, "I don't want to be your girlfriend, I just want your autograph." But Ethier continued: "I'm just a Southwestern kind of guy, I like to rope my women in." (He's a native of Phoenix, Arizona.)

Stunned, Jenna's mom handed Ethier's card to one of the men in line and Ethier signed it (a pretty weak-looking signature, too, I might add).

Now, maybe Ethier thinks he was being funny, but it strikes me as being extremely rude. Oh, and in case any of the five girlfriends is reading this: you're not the only one!!!

I had to get that out of my system because Ethier's home run -- which just barely made the first row of seats and was definitely wind-aided -- has dealt a serious blow to the Cubs' playoff hopes. Tied now with Milwaukee, and only a game ahead of St. Louis after their apparent blowout win over the Pirates today (they're leading 16-4 at this writing, and it just went into a rain delay in the 9th inning), with 24 games left, the Cubs aren't done, not by a long shot.

But they had better start winning. Now. They are going on the road, starting tomorrow, and so are the Brewers and Cardinals. Road records:

Cubs 33-32 Cardinals 30-37 Brewers 26-42
If those performances hold true over the next ten days or so, the Cubs ought to come home on September 17 in first place.

But they have to have better hitting. On a day when the wind was howling out to left field, only Alfonso Soriano could hit the ball out of the ballpark; he accounted for all four RBI and two of the six hits with his two HR, the second of which gave the Cubs a 4-2 lead going into the 8th inning, a lead they should have been able to hold on to. Bob Howry gave a run of it back on Matt Kemp's no-doubt-about-it HR in the 8th.

Then you all know what Dempster did. I haven't had a chance to look through the game thread comments and I can only imagine what you all said about Dempster. Here's the bottom line: it's his third blown save of the year. It's a spectacular one. These things do happen, even to the best closers (example: Takashi Saito, who dispatched the Cubs 1-2-3 in the 9th and who has 37 saves with a 1.31 ERA, also has three blown saves this year). It's just that this is the worst possible time for this to happen (bad enough, that those left after the blowup in the LF bleachers started chanting, "Marmol! Marmol! Marmol!").

Does this mean "Dump Dempster?" No, it doesn't. He could easily go back to saving games -- his last blown save was June 10 in Atlanta. What has to happen is that the Cubs need to start putting opponents away, and not giving games away -- Derrek Lee absolutely, positively has to make the play at first base on James Loney's ground ball just before Ethier's HR. (He was originally charged with an error -- justified, I thought; it shouldn't have been changed to a hit.) Had that play been made, with first base open and one out, Ethier might have been walked and Dempster would have faced Tony Abreu with runners on first and second and one out. The resulting ground ball could well have been a game-ending double play. Even at 6-4, the Cubs might have felt they had a shot at getting back into the game in the 9th, but Dempster's bad outing turned horrid when he wild-pitched in the seventh run.

All of this ruined a fine, fine outing by Jason Marquis, who retired the first fourteen hitters he faced before Loney's HR in the fifth inning. He threw two more effective innings before departing for pinch-hitter Cliff Floyd, who walked. Sam Fuld ran for Floyd and scored his first major league run on Soriano's HR. Marquis deserved better.

Oh, and Daryle Ward got picked off again, in the first inning (apparently, replays showed he was safe). I was talking to Dave about this and he said sometimes big, slow guys like Ward try to get a little more of an edge leading off a base than they really should, because they know they're not fast, and apparently they feel they need this to perhaps score from first on a double. That said, big, slow guys like Ward have to pay extra attention to pitchers, particularly veteran pitchers like Derek Lowe, because otherwise they're going to get picked off again and again. The Cubs could have, since there were two walks issued by Lowe in the first inning, had a big inning and maybe put the game away early.

And as if that weren't bad enough, I left the ballpark without my umbrella (it didn't even rain today -- might as well have, given the result of the game). I tried calling Jeff, Howard and Jon to find out if any of them had taken it. Only Howard would answer his phone. He said he didn't have it. Which was true -- Jeff did. They threatened to put it on eBay and leave the auction only open to BCB members.

Now seriously. How much would any of you have bid on a used, six-year-old blue and white golf umbrella?

Maybe I shouldn't ask those questions. They met me at my car and the umbrella is now resting comfortably in the back. We all needed the comic relief after today's disaster. It's not over -- far from it -- but I can't imagine tonight's Cub flight to Pittsburgh is going to be a very happy one.

Till tomorrow. Keep faith and hope, because this race, I believe, may go down to the very last day, or even beyond.

Note: Aramis Ramirez' foul ball, which missed being a HR by about twenty feet (and which would have given the Cubs a 6-2 lead and maybe kept Dempster out of the game), broke a window on this bus parked on Waveland:

Click here for my scorecard from today's game (don't forget that you may have to click on the image in Firefox, or on the lower-right corner in IE, to expand the image to full size)

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I initially thought...
that Loney's hit in the ninth was an error by Lee, but Len and Bob were emphatic saying the opposite. They might have influenced the scorer. It wasn't a ball hit directly at Lee, true, but I think that if he had let it go, the second baseman had it covered for an easy out. That's why I thought it was an error.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 5:44 PM CDT   0 recs

The play should have been made, and...
... Lee is an outstanding defensive player. Thus, a play like this not made should be an error.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Sep 6, 2007 5:51 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The fact
that Lee's an outstanding defensive player isn't relevant to whether the scorer determines it's an error.  The scorer is supposed to consider what an "average fielder" making an "ordinary effort" would do.

by cubsbak on Sep 6, 2007 5:58 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Come on.....
I think that a left handed 1st baseman would have had it.   Lee had to take a few steps to his right and cross his body to get it.  You call that an error?  It was a difficult play.  If he would have got it, everyone would have said it was an outstanding play.  But since he didn't you think it should be an error? You think that was an ordinary play?  No way!

by IOWACUBSFAN on Sep 7, 2007 12:45 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Actually
I never even saw the play (I was at work when it happened).  I was just clarifying the standard the scorer is supposed to use when determining if the play was an error.  Frankly, I have no opinion whatsoever on the actual play since I didn't see it.

by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 12:47 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It didn't appear
...that Lee was guarding the line for that lead-off hit in the 9th. As much as I hate the 'pulled-in infield,' (which is baseball strategy that should be retired) I think guarding the line late in the game can prevent such extra-base hits, and is very useful.

And, as regarding the pick-off...I was sitting in the dugout box, second row with a perfect view of the play. Ward's foot was back on the bag before the tag.

Sorry, I don't remember the umpire in question -- but he was wearing sunglasses during the play. (The sky was overcast in the first, the lights had been turned on.)

However -- he took the sunglasses off between innings. I'll let you, dear reader -- connect the dots.

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Sep 6, 2007 10:51 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Speaking of pulled-in infields...
... the Cubs got two run-scoring singles through one on Wednesday night.

Yeah, that strategy works all the time.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Sep 7, 2007 10:08 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Not an error...
...to me.  

Lee is a great defender but that was not an error on Lee's part, IMHO.

by DrCrawdad on Sep 6, 2007 11:16 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

What's wrong with site clock, Al?
My post appears to be four minutes earlier than your recap. I'm no psychic.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 5:46 PM CDT   0 recs

And...
... on my computer, it appears to be TWO minutes earlier than my recap.

I'm not sure how these times are accounted for. I'll see if I can ask the web gurus to fix this.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Sep 6, 2007 5:50 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think you're right
about this being tight till the end. Everyone might as well prepare themselves for that now. The last series with the Reds will likely have to be treated the same as a playoff series would.
Tinker to Evers to Chance.

by Matt Allison on Sep 6, 2007 5:50 PM CDT   0 recs

You LEFT the UMBRELLA ?
Wow you must REALLY have been shaken up. Since most of  you have not sat around Al at a game let me explain that he has the same attitude towards water falling on him as the Wicked Witch
of the West in the WIZARD OF OZ. The umbrella in question is HUGE. I think it covers his whole back row. Anyway sorry you were so shaken as to have left it but glad Jeff got it back. Might have been fun if it put it on eBay though. We coud have given the profits to D Lee's charity.
"It's the Cubbies. There's always a vibe. It's the greatest vibe in baseball." Greg Maddux on Cub fan's optimism even after the 06 debacle.

by jessica on Sep 6, 2007 5:56 PM CDT   0 recs

When I got home....
.... the guys in the garage just looked at me in disbelief. I choked back the tears and blurted out that it was Dempster's fault. I think that settled some bet.  

Today I was in the upper deck with my dad and didn't see the ball hit the bus, but did see the bus after the game.

At least I got to spend some quality time with my dad today and we got to celebrate our upcoming birthdays -- just the two of us.

I can't even talk about today's game. When I think about it I want to cry.

"I'm a Cubs fan. I'm very, very patient." -- from a Shoe cartoon.

by No Southern Belle on Sep 6, 2007 5:58 PM CDT   0 recs

I'm following Lou on this

 While I hate losing the game. And those Blanekety blank blanking Cardinals are now one back, I'm not THAT upset about this one. It sucks.... no doubt.... but the pitching has still been solid. And if Lou feels there's another winning streak in this team then I do to. and a 12 out of 13 or 15 out of seventeen against Pittsburgh,Cincinatti, and the Cardinals is entirely possible.

So I will let the doomsayers and the Dempster bashers have their day. ( I sure hope someone calls him Dumpster.....So funny and original when they do that. Mature too). They seem to enjoy days like these. I'll look forward to playing the Pirates....

"I can't be held responsible for what I personally tell my goons to do...."- C. Montgomery Burns

by yahoodi on Sep 6, 2007 6:02 PM CDT   0 recs

People like to announce their iqs
Calling him Dumpster announces a persons IQ as being quite low.

People said he'd suck before he started closing and don't want to admit they were wrong.

I love how this Marmol love is going on.  Heck I like the kid a lot.  But you don't throw a guy who's never closed into the job in September unless you have to.

Remember LaTroy Hawkins was a lights out guy in the 7th and 8th too.

We all know how that turned out.

I'm not saying Marmol is a closer.  In fact if I were a betting person I'd bet he will be our closer next year with Dempster either wearing another uniform or starting.

I would like to see the Cubs keep Ryan as a closer if they keep him although if they move him to the rotation he could always switch back if Marmol fails.

This is going to be the fall and winter of our content in Chicago.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Sep 6, 2007 7:25 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Shouldn't forget
that the Cards and Brewers still have a series against each other. It will be interesting to see who we have to root for in that set of games. It might change depending on the day.
Tinker to Evers to Chance.

by Matt Allison on Sep 6, 2007 6:07 PM CDT   0 recs

Could be mixed
Whoever is closer to us obviously we want to lose but on the other hand we have a chance to beat the Cardinals face to face and not the Brewers.
This is going to be the fall and winter of our content in Chicago.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Sep 6, 2007 7:30 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Howry
This might not have been lost in the game thread, but I believe that we're underestimating the effect of his giving back the insurance run. Now who knows what happens if that ball doesn't leave the yard, but if the Cubs are up by 2 in the ninth, there is no way Lee is playing in. The ball that he was unable to make the play on is at the very least an out at second or even a double play. Again, things may have turned out totally different, but this was a team loss. The Cubs continue to leave runs on the bases or erase them with stupid baserunning and DPs.

DmL

by dmlichte on Sep 6, 2007 6:12 PM CDT   0 recs

I think if Ethier was joking he would have
signed for her. What an arrogant ass. I hope he gets herpes. Okay, no I don't, maybe just crabs.
There are 3 things in my life which I really love: God, family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit.

by cubsfan4life on Sep 6, 2007 6:14 PM CDT   0 recs

Disapointing loss
Very much so. But just maybe a road trip will bring this team back to playing decent ball. I still and always will maintain this is our division. Go get 'em Cubs.
"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"

by wild bill on Sep 6, 2007 6:14 PM CDT   0 recs

Thanks for the bus picture
I think Ramirez should autograph it.  It just needs the Cubs logo above it with an Aramis Ramirez autograph and that would be the coolest seat on that bus.

by adam316 on Sep 6, 2007 6:15 PM CDT   0 recs

Ethier is a playah... (in more ways than one)
Al, I witnessed some of Ethier's autograph antics on Monday, and heard the same "I'll sign when Martin signs" stuff.  Ok, fine, whatever.  Pretty lame if you ask me - if you don't want to sign, just say no and walk on in.  

Then during batting practice today (yes, I went inside today - value price tickets have that effect on me), he was jawing pretty good with fans in right field.  Seemed to be mostly in good fun, though he was pretty cocky.  Fans were telling him he sucked (wow - that's original), and he would tease them by fake-throwing balls into the seats.  He did throw one up, but made sure it was way up and out onto Sheffield - I'm sure just to antagonize the fans that were riding him.

So I had to laugh to myself as I'm listening to the radio in the 9th inning when Ethier comes up with runners on 1st and 2nd, no outs.  Both Pat & Ron were expecting Ethier to bunt to move the runners over.

Ha!!!  No way does this brash, cocky, smartass of a player lay down a bunt - it wouldn't be manly enough for him.

Sure enough - no bunt.  Just a back-breaker of a home run.  Ouch!

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Sep 6, 2007 6:24 PM CDT   0 recs

Bullpen alternatives/options
It appears that Pinella is locked in to his setup/closers when the Cubs lead after the sixth--Marmol, Howry, then Dempster for the ninth.

Today, since our starter completed the seventh, we had Howry-Dempster...I'm wondering if we might consider Marmol to close some, to give Dempster a break now and then or if he doesn't get the job done.

Looking forward, this leaves Wood w/o a meaningful role...heading into '08, I can't see this continuing, meaning Dempster could be a good trade candidate and bringing a nice return..>make Marmol/Wood the closer.

They have been hurt by lack of a reliable lefty..Either is a lefthanded hitter you could second guess Pinella on that if Eyre/Ohman were guys you could go to the bank on.

The Cubs are good enough to win as constituted, good enough to win the Central anyway.

by writerinwrigley on Sep 6, 2007 6:26 PM CDT   0 recs

Marmol should be used...
to get the toughest and most important outs in any ballgame.  If that means coming in with 2 on in the 6th/7th and getting us out of a jam in a close game, then so be it.  In fact, that's generally the best time to use him, because maintaining the lead in pressure middle innings is a typical problem for us.  But occasionally, if it means bringing him in to close the door in the 9th, so be it.

I'm tired of the defined "roles" in the bullpen.  Each game is different, and requires different personnel.  If Marmol was available there, I'd have gone with him to get the win.

by SouthernCub on Sep 6, 2007 6:33 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Absolutely agree
I remember in the 80's when Lee Smith would refuse to go into games unless it was a save situation.  That used to drive me nuts.  The best reliever should be used to get the toughest outs.  Marmol is so clearly the best relieve on the Cubs it's not even funny.  To lose a game like this with him sitting on the bench unused is inexcusable.  If Marmol is available and the Cubs have a 1-run 9th inning lead he should be used.  If Dempster doesn't like it too damn bad.

by cubsbak on Sep 6, 2007 6:38 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Seconding that Agreement
I am also sick of defined bullpen roles.  I think most would agree that Dempster is probably the third best reliever on this team, behind both Howry and Marmol. While he has been solid in his 2+ years as closer, he's hardly a dominant pitcher with great stuff. While he's certainly serviceable and an asset to this team, I would much rather have seen Marmol come on in the 9th today. I think this notion that you have a closer who always needs to be used in save situations is outdated. Use your best relievers in the most important spots. We needed Marmol in the 9th today, not Dempster.  

by ms9av on Sep 6, 2007 6:57 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Sorry, but that's not the way...
the game is played nowadays. Baseball is a mental game. Those relievers ned to know their role to perform well. The closer closes. Period. The problem is that no closer has a rubber arm. Therefore, WTF was Lou doing using Dempster Wednesday night in a non save situation and bringing him back 16 hours later or so to close?

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 8:34 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Actually
Dempster has historically been more effective when used more often.  He supposedly likes pitching in back to back games.

by cubsbak on Sep 6, 2007 8:49 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeabut...
The game also is not played with the pitcher batting 8th, and the Cards do that.  Who says you need to follow 'how the game is played nowadays'.  I have been a huge fan of 6 starting pitchers, who makes the rule of only 5???

But i totally agree with you about Lou using Dempster in a non save situation.  He has to stop doing that, even if he needs work, it never seems to fail that he goes in, in a non save situation and the following day we need him.

If people want to compare Lou and Dusty i think the bullpen is where you can do it.  Lou totally mismanages our pen.  One example is using Marmol in a 10-2 game against the Rockies.  Why?

"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"

by HIGGY on Sep 7, 2007 6:56 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Al you really
think this is a serious blow to the Cubs playoff hopes? I don't. A serious blow is losing 2 out of three with five games to play and being three games out. A set back yes, but a serious blow, no.

Fans, keep your chins up. We are still in the hunt. Does not matter if we are tied for first or at this point of the season two games out. We are with in striking distance.

Truth be told though, this lose really hurts.

"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"

by wild bill on Sep 6, 2007 6:28 PM CDT   0 recs

By hurts
I mean to me and the rest of us. Damn, hate to give one away like today. But that is baseball.
"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"

by wild bill on Sep 6, 2007 6:30 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

we
must sweep the buck-o's
put soriano in the 5-hole please!!!!

by tbizzle83 on Sep 6, 2007 6:34 PM CDT   0 recs

Just Venting ---
I did not take the time to go back and read the posts during and after Dempster's blown save. I was listening on the radio when he gave up the HR.
But the time has come to vent.

We can find all kinds of reasons why the game was lost. We fault Ward for getting picked off -- inexcusable. Like Brenly said last night -- a good ballplayer keeps his head up -- he doesn't turn his head after a ball or strike at the plate and lose concentration. For God's sake, we all know that Ward is not going to take a huge leadoff, he is not going to steal, he is not going to confuse the opposition with his blazing speed. He just plain lost it -- he did not pay attention to what was going on and got picked off by the catcher. Bottom line -- he screwed up.
But we lost because our closer did not do what he is paid to do  --  he gave up the tying and winning runs.
Let me ask all of you a question --- do you feel comfortable when Dempster enters a game when we are winning by a run or two in the ninth inning? Let me ask all of you a second question -- would you rather have Marmol or Dempster pitch when the game is on the line like it was today? If you can honestly say and I do mean honestly say that you would rather have Dempster in the situation that we saw today rather than Marmol, I need to hear a rational explanation.
The statistics tell us that Dempster has only blown three saves this year.  All of them were real eye openers. I was at the one in Atlanta in June. Most of us saw the one against the Mets and sat back in disbelief.
Then today -- another implosion. And how many other times has he put men on base and escaped.
Dempster is an accident waiting to happen. If you do not believe that Marmol should be the closer in games like today, I feel sorry for you. Marmol should be our closer -- hands down. The oppostion fears him -- just look at the results.
With two men on base, don't we all think that Marmol should have been in the game with Ethier at the plate?
Dempster is not the man -- he does not strike fear into the hearts of mortal men.
In these last 23 games, Marmol needs to be the closer not Dempster.
If Lou continues to use him in these types of situations, we are doomed.
I have been a Cubs fan for well over fifty years and feel that I have some insight. You may not like what I have said but I have to vent.
We can win this thing -- but not with Dempster as our closer and with our best pinch hitter Ward playing right field.
We all bitch about the Deadbirds and their savior Ankiel. But where is our Ankiel? He does not have to be a resurrected pitcher. We need some of our guys to save us -- someone to get a hit when we need it instead of another double play or called third strike.
We all want this team to win -- we die everytime they lose -- we need to win more than two games in a row -- but we also need some smart decisions by both our manager and our players.

by ceegeewow on Sep 6, 2007 7:02 PM CDT   0 recs

That's why Lou is manager
Lou is not a knee jerk person and that's why he's a manager.

He's not dumb enough to go to another closer in a pennant race when he blows his first save in just under 3 months.

This is going to be the fall and winter of our content in Chicago.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Sep 6, 2007 7:23 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm comfortable with Dempster closing.
Here's my rational explanation. Use Dempster judiciously. What was he doing throwing the 9th inning the night before? Dempster doesn't have a rubber arm.

Neither does Mármol. He fails sometimes. If I recall correctly, he started somewhat shaky the 7th inning Wednesday night. However, because Mármol is not throwing in the 9th inning, there is time for him and the team to recover. Dempster doesn't have that luxury.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 8:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Dempster threw on Wed. night...
... because he was warming up when the game was a save situation.

Lou should have gotten someone else up once the game got out of hand, thus saving Dempster for today.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Sep 6, 2007 9:25 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Glancing at Dempster's gamelog
Before today he pitched back-to-back games on the following dates: September 1st and 2nd, August 21st and 22nd, August 17th and 18th, June 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th, June 3rd and 4th, May 17th and 18th, May 4th, 5th and 6th, and April 14th and 15th.

In EVERY SINGLE one of those previous back-to-backs Dempster was just as effective on the second day as he was the first and in many of those back-to-backs he was MORE effective the second day.  The June 10th, 11th, 12th, and 13th appearances are an interesting example.  On June 10th he melted down against Atlanta, giving up 3 runs (he hadn't pitched in 3 days before that appearance).  The next THREE days he didn't give up a run, saving a 2-1 game against Houston (the 1-game makeup), pitching a perfect inning in a 5-3 loss to Seattle, and saving a 3-2 game against Seattle.

In his time as a reliever Dempster has historically thrived with more work.  In short, there was no reason why Sweet Lou wouldn't expect a decent performance from Dempster in a back-to-back situation.  Dempster is not the kind of reliever that needs to be "saved".  As I recall, the general consensus around here was his struggles last season were due to inactivity.  Now he's getting too much work?  I don't think so.  He just blew this one plain and simple.

by cubsbak on Sep 6, 2007 9:47 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Excellent research!
So today's game can be considered a statistical anomaly for the premise he's bad in the 2nd day of back-to-back games.

Now back to your regular programming.

Good job...

So how 'bout us all talking about a Cubs win, say 23 hours and 20 minutes from now?!

Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 9:53 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Thanks!
I'm all for that!  

by cubsbak on Sep 6, 2007 10:00 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm not up for Marmol closing
We don't know what this kid is made of inside. It's one thing to shut a team down in the 7th.

It's another to do it in the 9th.

Dempster has been pretty good for us. He last blew a save June 10.

I'll take a closer who goes from June 10 to Sept. 6 without blowing a save any day of the week.

He's one of the reasons we're here.  

I blame him for the meltdown, but I also blame Lou for using him Wednesday night. I blame Lee for not getting to the ball. I blame Howry for not shutting the door on the 8th.

I blame the offense for not scoring more.

by lancaster99 on Sep 6, 2007 7:08 PM CDT   0 recs

Finally someone makes sense
You want to know who was a lights out 7th and 8th inning guy?

Latroy Hawkins.

This is going to be the fall and winter of our content in Chicago.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Sep 6, 2007 7:21 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

My thoughts exactly.
I heard that Lou was in a bad mood in his news conference. I hope he was mad at himself because he blew it.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 8:41 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Huh?
Lou gave up 4 runs in the 9th?  Looked like Dempster to me.

by cubsbak on Sep 6, 2007 8:56 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

No.
Lou brought a reliever who wasn't sharp because he used him the night before in a meaningless situation.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 9:04 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

But
that reliever is historically not sharp when he's used too infrequently.  He's known to be sharper when he gets a lot of work.  Last year one of the roots of his struggles was that he didn't get regular work since the Cubs weren't in many save situations.  Lou was just giving him work since he hadn't pitched in a few days.  Supposedly he likes working back to back.  Do you follow this team on a regular basis?

by cubsbak on Sep 6, 2007 9:06 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yes, I follow the team.
And Dempster was used one time too many Wednesday night. Heck, if he pitches better in consecutive games, why not bring him in to close every game until the end of the season? It doesn't make any sense, right? Neither did bringing him in with a 6 run lead Wednesday night. That chicken came home to roost Thursday afternoon.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 9:51 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Not EVERY game
but back-to-back games should be no problem for him.  In fact, until today, not only has it been no problem but he's been stronger in the second game.  Today he gave up some well-placed singles and a wind-blown homer.  That stuff happens and I don't think it had anything to do with him pitching yesterday.

by cubsbak on Sep 6, 2007 9:56 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

His pitches were high...
even though the target was low. That's a sign of a tired pitcher.

Dempster was effective pitching in consecutive games earlier in the season and after his DL stint. But it's September, late in the season, under the summer heat, and human beings tire easily under these conditions.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 7, 2007 8:32 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Sure
Whatever you say.  He suddenly got tired yesterday even though he was able to throw 4 consecutive outings earlier in the season and he's historically been more effective on the second day of back-to-back outings.  But hey, if he threw a few high pitches that must mean he's tired.  I mean Dempster's been known to have pinpoint control and the only reason he'd throw a high pitch is if he's tired.  Gimme a break.

If you want to blame the manager for everything that goes wrong with the Cubs that's certainly your prerogative.  Unfortunately in this case the facts don't add up.

by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 8:39 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I am defending Dempster.
Are you sure you are doing the same? If Dempster has no pinpoint control, as you say, then you are inadvertently joining the chorus that says he should not be the closer. I say the opposite. He is good. He has control. He should close.

Remember, the numbers you cite are from earlier in the season and his appearances take a toll, as they would on any human being. It's up to the manager to use his bullpen with care and save the closer in September for save situations. For instance, look at what happened to Torre last season for using Mariano Rivera too much.

In other words, I don't blame the manager for everything that goes wrong. As a fan, I just hold Lou accountable for those things that are part of his responsibilities, like the lineup and using the relievers.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 7, 2007 12:44 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

So if that's the case
perhaps the next time, he will consider Howry on the 2nd night or just say f-it, let one of the kids start the 9th when they have a 6-run lead.
Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 9:08 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

If anyone thinks Dempster should be closing...
.....or is even a capable closer is, well I was gonna be harsh and say baseball illiterate but I be nice and say clueless and in toatl Cubby denial.

 He has poor control and can't work out of situations with K's because he can't strike anyone out anymore and he pitches to contact.

 I said last week that Dempster should not be closing and Marmol should be given the opportunity and that Dumpster would blow one within the week and as usual, I was right again.

by lemon20pie on Sep 7, 2007 12:09 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

dempster...
...is 25-28 in save opportunities, which very well may be the best save percentage in baseball.

in any event, when considering dempster's save percentage, his ERA becomes almost inconsequential especially when considering that a closer's primary duty is to preserve (save) the lead.  

fundamentally, it really doesn't matter if dempster gives up a run, here or there, so long as he  records the save.

"If you'da been thinkin you wouldn't 'a thought that." ~~ "Squints" Palledorous

by rm463 on Sep 7, 2007 8:30 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I like how some folks call others clueless...
when they do not know with whom they're conversing.

What I hear here from the Dempster dumpers is he shouldn't be closing but not once has there been a feasible plan-B.

We have a "Marmol to close" campaigner in here but no forthright understanding how Marmols' current role (a more than 1 inning middle of the game stopper) is going to be replaced.

Will Marmol be the closer of the future? Likely. Will he be put in the role exclusively now, like some here suggest? No. If you've watched Lou all season you would know he doesn't make these knee-jerk reactions.

Just once, I'd like to come on here and not see so many ledge-jumpers when 1 game goes wrong.

And please spare us the "if we lose the division title by 1 game speech". There are already more than a dozen of those candidates this season.

Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 7, 2007 9:20 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

If you really want to avoid the
ledge jumps then you need to stay away during game threads. It really gets ugly during the games, especially when they fall behind. I would imagine it will be really angst filled these last few weeks. It amazes me how little adversity some of these posters can take. I'm not happy about the outcome of yesterday's game, but happy that the games still have significance in Sept.

by billybuck on Sep 7, 2007 9:54 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

This is the last good team the Cubs face..
Unfortunately, they couldn't get a split... I think there's a decent winning streak left in the this team and they'll hold off Milw and StL..  However, this series shows the Cubs don't have what it take to beat AZ, SD or NY in the playoffs.  And please spare me with, BUT THE CARDINALS IN 2006..  That team had vast playoff experience, and the Cubs don't have Cardinal luck.  What other organization could get Jeff Weaver to dominate down the stretch.  I don't wanna hear it.
SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!

by CubFaninCA on Sep 6, 2007 7:17 PM CDT   0 recs

Biggest game of the season
Biggest game of the season is tomorrow.

This team has shown a resilliency this year.

Has anyone noticed they seem to not get down by bad games but also not up after good games?

This is going to be the fall and winter of our content in Chicago.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Sep 6, 2007 7:21 PM CDT   0 recs

Here's some fun 2003 stats
On Sept. 6, 2003, the Cubs were in the middle of a six-game winning streak.

They beat the Red Roosters two in a row to finish that wonderful 4 of 5 game series. Then they swept the Schlitzes. All that time, however, they only remained a .5 game up.

Then they beat the French Canadiens 4-3, with Big Z getting the victory. But because the Astros played on the Cubs' off-day, the Cubs and Astros were tied.

Then we lost two games to the Frenchies, including a 3-2 loss where Alex Gonzalez hit into a double play in the 9th, scoring Alou, but ending the threat.

The Astros swept the Red Chickens, who by this point were rolling over like the dogs they are, and we only take two of three from the Reds, leaving us 2 games back on Sept. 14

The last game was a killer. Zambrano throws 129 pitches, and gives up one run in the top of the ninth. Loses 1-0. Cubs get 7 hits, can't bring any of them across.

Bottom 1st: Alou and A-Ram consecutive strikeouts with two men on.

Bottom 6th: Bases loaded, Gonzalez grounds out.

Lowest point of the season. Two games out. Can't muster a single run in support of Big Z.

And guess what happened the rest of the way...

Hold on, kiddies. The ride is just beginning.

In 2003, we were 1.5 games out on Sept. 20 and 2 up on Sept. 27.

We've got a ways to go.

And Dempster will be one of the ones who gets us there.

by lancaster99 on Sep 6, 2007 7:22 PM CDT   0 recs

Sorry, but...
there are no Alous or hitters like that in this year's team. The 2003 team was much better.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 8:43 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

And...
Our competition is much worse.

by lancaster99 on Sep 6, 2007 8:57 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Pack up the tums
Guys pack up the tums for this ride.  We're going to need them.

We had a bad few games.  Cardinals and Brewers had a good few games.

We all hit the road.  We are 500 on the road they couldn't beat my nephews tball team on the road.

How's this for Dempster?  If the Brewers are on the road they'd be better off with him.

I read some bozo on another site say the Cubs don't deserve to win the division and this is a Cubs fan.

Whoever wins the division will deserve to win it.  And you can make a serious argument the Cubs deserve it the most as of now because they've dominated the season series against both teams.

This is going to be the fall and winter of our content in Chicago.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Sep 6, 2007 7:28 PM CDT   0 recs

What is our record against the Pirates
this year?  I seem to remember us losing 3 out of 4 in the last series.  The pirates always play us tough.  I hope we can do better and stay in this thing.  We really are due for another hot streak let's hope it comes soon.  Personally, I'm down but not out.  

by mgfabc on Sep 6, 2007 7:29 PM CDT   0 recs

dumpster makes me want to PUKE!
Bring back the damn cowbell!

by CubsBall2202 on Sep 6, 2007 7:33 PM CDT   0 recs

Serenity Now
If there's one guy that can shake this stink off him, it's Dempster. He has the mental make-up for the role. Marmol will get his chance....later.

Can't get nervous this time; I think I got half my gray hair from the '03 drive and what happened in games 6 & 7.

Ok boys, get your butts to the steel city and win tomorrow night. 1 game at a time. How's that for an old, tired cliche'?

Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 7:59 PM CDT   0 recs

Mental Makeup ??
The guy to do the job has to do that -- get the job done. To hell with mental makeup -- when you continually put men on base, get behind in the count, throw pitches down the middle of the plate, you are flirting with disaster. It just becomes a matter of time before what happened today happens again.
I do not want to be in that situation again and it will happen again. It is time to grab this situation by the nuts and get the job done.
Do any of us really care about the closer of the future, about what happened last month, last week, or today? No  ---  it is what is going to happen tomorrow, Saturday, and the rest of the season. Marmol has not done what Dempster did today -- maybe he will. But I for one fear that Dempster given the chance will do it again before Marmol given the chance will do it for the first time.

by ceegeewow on Sep 6, 2007 8:18 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Hell with mental make-up?
Do you realize the stones it takes to go out there in the 9th? I'm convinced it takes a special breed.

Besides, who's gonna be your guy in the 5th-