Pants On Fire

by Al Yellon on Jan 7, 2008 8:56 AM CST in Chicago Cubs News

I think you know the rest of that childhood phrase.

The only real news to come out of Roger Clemens' interview last night on "60 Minutes" (since the content of the interview was leaked several days beforehand) was the announcement, made just before the show aired, that Clemens was going to beat Brian McNamee to a year filled with legal fees by suing him for defamation first, before McNamee could file. Incidentally, Rusty Hardin, the lawyer Clemens has hired for this lawsuit, is apparently quite a character in Texas; among other things, he's trying to tar McNamee as a liar for what he told Sen. Mitchell because:

the federal authorities and Mitchell investigators did not even interview the police officers who handled a 2001 sexual-assault case in Florida in which McNamee was a suspect. McNamee was not charged in that case, but the officers, who have now been interviewed by Hardin’s own investigators, feel he was not entirely truthful, Hardin contended.

What a six-year-old sexual assault case has to do with McNamee's testimony about PED use, I have no idea. (Hat tip for the Hardin article link: Crawfish Boxes)

Thanks to the Boston Globe, we have a complete transcript of the Clemens interview.Let's deconstruct, shall we?

CLEMENS I'm angry that that what I've done for the game of baseball and the personal, in my private life, what I've done that I don't get the benefit of the doubt.

Right, Roger. What YOU have done for baseball? Without baseball, you're probably driving a UPS truck in Houston. Gimme a break.

WALLACE Mitchell Report, quote: "According to McNamee, from the time McNamee injected Clemens with Winstrol, a steroid, through the end of the '98 season, Clemens performance showed remarkable improvement. Clemens told McNamee that the steroids, quote, had a pretty good effect on him. McNamee said Clemens was also training harder and dieting better during this time."

CLEMENS Never. I trained hard my entire career. It just didn't happen.

Notice there's no denial here.

WALLACE Again, from the Mitchell Report, quote, "According to McNamee, during the middle of the 2000 season, Clemens made it clear he was ready to use steroids again. And during the latter part of the season, McNamee injected Clemens in the buttocks four to six times with testosterone. Also injected Clemens four to six times with Human growth hormone.

CLEMENS My body never changed. If he's putting that stuff up in my body, if what he's saying which is totally false, if he's doing that to me, I should have a third ear coming out of my forehead. I should be pulling tractors with my teeth.

Classic distraction. "A third ear coming out of my forehead"? No one's ever said that about PED's. What PED's are supposed to help you do is train harder, so you can get and stay stronger. "Pulling tractors with my teeth"? Hardly. What they apparently allowed Clemens to do was to pitch at a high level for several years after what would have been a normal rate of decline for a professional athlete.

WALLACE Why didn't you speak to George Mitchell's investigators?

CLEMENS I listened to my counsel. I was advised not to. A lot of the players didn't go down and talk to him.

WALLACE I know.

CLEMENS But if I would've known what this man, Brian McNamee had said in this report, I would have been down there in a heartbeat to take care of it.

Anyone believe that last statement? If Clemens had in fact "been down there in a heartbeat", Don Fehr and Gene Orza would likely have hired people to stop him.

WALLACE Did your former trainer, Brian McNamee ever inject you with anything?

CLEMENS Yes he did.

WALLACE What?

CLEMENS Lidocaine, and B12. It's for my joints and and B12 I take still today. A lot of trainers—

WALLACE And that's all.?

CLEMENS That's it.

WALLACE Never, never a human growth hormone?

CLEMENS Never.

WALLACE Never testosterone?

CLEMENS Never. Never.

WALLACE And never anabolic steroids?

CLEMENS Never.

WALLACE Swear?

CLEMENS Swear.

Like "Swear" makes it right? "Swear" makes it all go away, right, Roger? Just like it would in fourth grade? Gimme yet another break. (The Lidocaine and B-12 mentions are beyond ridiculous. If you've had a root canal, you've likely had Lidocaine injected into your mouth. Clemens says it was injected into his butt. Well, maybe it was to stop him from saying stupid stuff like this. In that case, it didn't work.)

CLEMENS Joe Torre and I were in the the trainers room and he basically shut the door and said, I don't need any damn heroes here. You didn't tell me how bad you're hurtin. I notice you're hurtin'. And I told Joe Torre that I'll be damned if 15 minutes before I'm gonna start a World Series game I'm gonna go out there and look my teammates in the eye and tell ‘em I can't go. I said, as long as the other team doesn't know that I'm hurting, I can get people out throwin' 85 without using my leg. And get you six innings under my belt. I'm gonna take this Torodol shot and hope it works. And mask some of this pain so I can get out there and do my job. That's the things I put my body through And I'm not ashamed of that because I get paid a lotta money to go out and perform. And I appreciate that they put that kind of trust in me.

TRACK: THAT NIGHT, HE THREW A THREE HITTER AND WON THE GAME.

This, interestingly enough, appears to be true. The game Clemens (and the announcer track) are discussing is likely Game Three of the 2001 World Series; it's the only World Series game in which Clemens appeared in which he gave up three hits (in seven innings) and won.

CLEMENS I didn't play my career to get fame or go to the Hall of Fame or worry about all that. That's nice. That, all that's nice. Again, it's not who I am. I've worked my tail off to get where I'm at. I'm not gonna put something in my body for a quick fix that's gonna tear me down.

So what did you play for, Roger? The money? That's OK -- it's your job, your profession, you're supposed to do that. But this isn't supposed to be a "quick fix that's gonna tear me down". Instead, most who have done PED's have done it to extend their careers when they appeared to be in decline -- and this seems to be the case for Clemens, too.

CLEMENS And that's our country, isn't it? Guilty before innocent. That's the way our country works now. And then everybody's talking about sue, sue sue. Should I sue? Well, let me exhaust. Let me, let me just spend. How about, let's keep spending. But I'm gonna explore what I can do and then I want to see if it's gonna be worth it, worth all the headache.

Guess he decided it was. The interview was recorded on December 28. A week later he decided to "sue, sue, sue".

WALLACE You're not going to pitch again?

CLEMENS You'll never see me pitch again.

TRACK: BUT HE HAS RETIRED THREE TIMES BEFORE AND HE TOLD US HE COULD UN-RETIRE AGAIN.

So which is it? The Q & A appears to say he's retired, but the announcer track says he said he could un-retire again. I'm guessing, that with Clemens turning 46 in August (and not pitching particularly well on his last unretirement last year), he's done anyway.

Maybe I've been too hard here, but I just don't believe Clemens. Andy Pettitte, who was a teammate of Clemens for eight seasons, admitted to HGH use and seems to have been forgiven in the court of public opinion. The fact that Clemens hasn't done so indicates one of two things: either he's a stubborn cuss who just can't bring himself to do this, or he's guilty as charged. He's right when he said in the interview:

CLEMENS I think the people that know me believe me and understand what I'm about. And I can't—the, the people that are out there that have been saying the things that they've been sayin', I don't know if I'll ever swing their opinion, These accusations are not gonna change me as a person. I'll, I'll do everything I can to prove ‘em wrong. And and I still don't know if that's good enough.

I doubt that it will be. We'll see what happens when he testifies before Congress next week -- if he shows up:

"Roger is willing to answer questions, including those under oath," said Clemens' attorney, Rusty Hardin. "We hope to determine shortly if schedules and other commitments can accommodate the committee on that date."

A committee spokesman told The Washington Post the panel could issue subpoenas if any witnessess decline the invitation.

"Schedules and commitments"? I'm thinking if you get called to Congress, you go. Let 'em subpoena him. We deserve to hear the truth.

I won't hold my breath thinking we're going to get it, though.

Finally, a little humor on the subject (hat tip to Pinstripe Alley):

Tweet Comment 98 comments | 0 recs |

Do you like this story?

Comments

Prepare for detonation

because this whole thing is going to blow up in Clemen's face before too long.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jan 7, 2008 8:59 AM CST reply actions

100% agreed.

Here's another interesting article from ESPN.com, from John Sawatski, a former journalism professor, who two days before the interview aired accurately predicted the types of questions Mike Wallace would ask that would appear to be tough, but that really weren't, and also writes about the types of questions that Wallace (or any real tough questioner) should have asked.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Jan 7, 2008 9:05 AM CST up reply actions

He has 3 choices

not show up to testify in front of Congress
show up and plead the 5th
show up and say the same stuff he has been saying

Any of these choices are not good, because he has backed himself into such a corner.

His next decision is going to be interesting.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jan 7, 2008 9:17 AM CST up reply actions

very interesting

article, too bad I didn't read it until now. I completely agree with all of his points about interviewing Clemens, including the one stating he let him off the hook. I think his body language also said a lot yesterday. He was very tense, fidgety, playing w/something in one hand and reaching for the water bottle w/the other. It wasn't that long an interview to where he couldnt be w/out either for some time. It was also obvious that he wanted to overpower Wallace w/his denials and I wanted to hear more than "It didn't happen". Where's Denny Green when you need him? He is who we think he is, and Wallace let him off the hook!

If anyone watched the interview before Clemens of the Pakistani president should see the clear difference between Wallace and how a REAL interview should be conducted. I believe the reporters name is Lara Logan. The interview and video can be found here. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/05/60minutes/main3678203.shtml

Eventually someone, a congressman, FBI agent or district attorney will question him tactfully and more truth will come out. Whether by further investigation or his own admission remains to be seen. I'll be right here waiting.

"We're going to turn this team around 360 degrees." -Jason Kidd

by tony412 on Jan 7, 2008 9:33 AM CST up reply actions

A few notes...

...An embedded video! And it is funny! Well done, sir, well done. I will be looking forward to seeing I AM CLEMENS on the big screen.

Can someone explain to me why his trainer would be injecting B-12 or anything else - if it was widely known, legal, okay-ed - behind closed doors. Don't players get shots all the time, in the trainers room, and everyone can see? "Buttocks" n all?

I thought Wallace was too easy on Roger, but Roger wasn't looking too good by himself, either.

Dan

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Jan 7, 2008 9:41 AM CST reply actions

About B-12...

... isn't it also widely available as an over-the-counter, pill-form supplement? Why would you have to have it injected?

Unless, as I have read, it is used as a masking agent for urine tests.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Jan 7, 2008 9:59 AM CST up reply actions

I believe

it is more effective that way instead of pill form. I know you can buy a sublingual version, basically it's liquid that you hold under your tongue. More of it is supposed to be absorbed that way and I assume that an injection would be even more effective than that.

What confuses me is the lidocaine injections. Seems like there would be other, more effective pain killers than lidocaine for baseball ahces and pains. I'm no doctor though so who knows, just seems like this is the first time I've ever heard lidocaine m mentioned as a pain killer of this type.

I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey

by pageian on Jan 7, 2008 10:10 AM CST up reply actions

Lidocaine

is a local anesthetic. There is no reason to inject it into your buttocks muscle.

It is (or another similar anesthetic) often used, along with steroids, as an injection into joints.

The only other reason lidocaine is used is systemically as an emergency drug in heart attacks, arrhythmias, etc.

B12 injections are used in traditional western medicine to treat anemia caused by a deficiency in B12. It is used over oral supplements because you can restore the body's levels faster than by using oral supplements. I believe the use of B12 in non-deficient people derived because people with anemia are fatigued, and the injections reversed that quickly. This, I believe, was extrapolated by some to beleive that B12 injections can be used to give anyone extra energy. I haven't seen anything convincing (other than people's anecdotal evidence) to asy this does anything beyond placebo effect.

In Clemens (and Palmiero et al) I think the B12 is more a cover, as people may have seen them get injections, and they could state it was B12 they were receiving, since B12 is not an illegal/performance enhancing drug.

IMO, if Clemens would have just admitting wrongdoing (even on a very limited basis, like Brian Roberts did), this would have already been forgotten, particularly if he retired. All this public denial merely keeps the negativity surrounding him in the spotlight. That, and I don't think even his momma believes him.

DEJESUS!!!

by tomas21 on Jan 7, 2008 8:16 PM CST up reply actions

Athletes have used

B-12 injections for a long time. No one knows whether they are of any benefit, but some think they give you more energy by assuring you don't have deficiencies. It's really no different than taking them orally (in pill form), but the injection just puts them directly into your bloodstream.

Trainers may have clinical training to give injections (like a nurse) and usually give injections that don't require a precise location be targeted (like cortisone or local anesthetics targeting joints), those are usually done by the physician.

All in all, if Clemens testifys in front of congress, one of their first questions will be why he would have a local anesthetic (Lidocaine) injected by a trainer. This is used to numb pain in a specific area (like a dentist numbing a tooth). At the end of the day, I just don't see his lawyers letting him answer questions under oath.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jan 7, 2008 10:03 AM CST up reply actions

B-12 product

I'm not very knowledgable on the subject, but I have been seeing a mouth spray (like bianca, remember that stuff) that is and "energy spray" that contains B-12, ginsing, and other stuff. Can't recall the name of the product however.

"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella

by El Borto on Jan 7, 2008 10:06 AM CST up reply actions

I take B-12 injections

a couple of times of month. I have been told that B-12 injections are a very good liver supplement, which I need as I take a lot of anti-inflamatories. A B-12 injection does make you feel terrific for the first 6-12 hours after you have it. I love em!

I have no doubt that pitchers and MLB players take lots of Vioxx (no longer available) or other pain meds as ego-man Clemems mentioned. I can see why MLB players MIGHT use B-12, but if you read Canseco's book, B-12 was also the locker room code word for steroids.

Interesting...

I can't wait for 2008!

by LAcarl519 on Jan 7, 2008 7:17 PM CST up reply actions

Do you need a prescription for these?

n/t

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Jan 7, 2008 7:20 PM CST up reply actions

My doctor gives it to me (he is an MD)

(trained in both eastern and western medicine). I do not inject myself. I do think if I wanted to inject myself, I could get an RX. I'll ask my doctor the next time I go...though I have no desire to mess with needles.

When I am at my doctor's office (in Beverly Hills), I can tell you that I can see a lot of famous names on the injection list that day (I always sneek a peek if I get a chance). These injections are very popular.

I can't wait for 2008!

by LAcarl519 on Jan 7, 2008 7:36 PM CST up reply actions

I only asked because

it seems that Clemens should be able to clear all this up by simply producing prescriptions for Lidocaine and B-12.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Jan 7, 2008 7:38 PM CST up reply actions

Thanks

for the info, by the way...

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Jan 7, 2008 7:39 PM CST up reply actions

I agree with McNamees lawyer

To me Clemens interview seemed "impassioned, disingenuous and desperate". His words and actions made him seem like a child. I understand that he wanted to express his (supposed) anger, but there are better ways for adults to handle this kind of adversity rather than (fake) anger.

I was also too obvious that Wallace was throwing pre-arranged softballs. Tell me Clemens didn't know the lie detector test question was coming, or the "did he ever inject you with anything?" question. What a sham.

Clemens also didn't seem too eager to commit to the lie detector test either, because he doesn't know if they are good or bad. In other words he setting up the spin for if he ever did take a lie detector test and fail it. To me that means he knows if he took a lie detector test he would fail it, so he had to seed some doubt about whether they work or not.

I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey

by pageian on Jan 7, 2008 10:19 AM CST reply actions

I'm not saying I believe Clemens.

Let me make that clear right from the get go, before I get accused of being a "steroid apologist" or anything like that.

But I think it's too soon to judge whether or not we believe Clemens. He has an opportunity to testify before congress. If he does so under oath, and again denies the accusations, I think we have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Really, what would he do differently if he was being falsely accused? He would deny the accusations, which he's doing here. He would testify under oath to that effect, which he still has the opportunity to do. He may sue, though defamation suits are nearly impossible to win in He said / She said cases like this.

Honestly I read something like this, Al:

Maybe I've been too hard here, but I just don't believe Clemens. Andy Pettitte, who was a teammate of Clemens for eight seasons, admitted to HGH use and seems to have been forgiven in the court of public opinion. The fact that Clemens hasn't done so indicates one of two things: either he's a stubborn cuss who just can't bring himself to do this, or he's guilty as charged.

...and it makes me think that you believe McNamee simply because you want to. Clemens is as much an ass as he is an amazing pitcher. I don't like him. I'm tired of the retirement / comeback thing year after year, and never liked him as a player in his prime. There's certainly some schadenfreude at work here.

But one possibility has to be that McNamee is lying. You're not even willing to entertain that one. For all we know, the Feds said, "Give us a big name or we're sending you to jail." We have no idea what his motives are or what his character is.

Again, I'm not saying I believe Clemens, but until there's more evidence that one man's word against another, I have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

by Wreckard on Jan 7, 2008 10:27 AM CST reply actions

Your point is taken.

But do you really think Clemens will tell the truth before Congress? Rafael Palmeiro lied. Why wouldn't Clemens?

The way he acted in the interview, with the anger and righteous indignation and some really bad body language, make me think he's lying.

But you're right, we just don't know for sure. This is only my opinion.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Jan 7, 2008 10:34 AM CST up reply actions

I was just going to say

why do we have to give him the benefit of the doubt if he testifies before congress?

As the magic eight ball says..."All signs point to yes" when asked if Clemens is lying.

I for one, cannot wait for this whole thing to blow up. It is so much easier to admit guilt and move on...especially when the consequences, while unknown currently, are sure to be lesser than that of perjury.

He is quickly inching his way to Barry Bonds territory IMO.

MMMMM...my mother-in-law's homemade ravioli!

by Kinky Reggae on Jan 7, 2008 10:44 AM CST up reply actions

I agree with you on one thing Al

I find the non-denial pretty fascinating. Clemens is never asked "Did you ever do steroids" - it's all focused on the specific accusations that McNamee laid out.

It makes me think that McNamee is lying about having injected Clemens, but did have knowledge that Clemens had taken steroids.

Perhaps the feds pressured him to change his story into a first-hand account so that it would be more credible. Who knows.

Again, that's yet another possibility - Clemens did steroids, but McNamee never injected him with them.

by Wreckard on Jan 7, 2008 10:48 AM CST up reply actions

Defamation time, come on! [Woo hoo!]

Al, you made an excellent point when you questioned the relevance of the sexual assault case from six years ago. To be fair, Palmeiro's testimony is also irrelevant and Clemens might see many reasons to testify truthfully. For the record, I agree with you and I also think Clemens is lying. I just don't think Palmeiro lying has anything to do with Clemens lying.

I'm reading a lot of comments today at BCB regarding defamation cases. I don't care to speculate on the outcomes of the various defamation suits now being filed or the parties' reasons for filing. I will say that both Clemens and the trainer will have a lot of huge obstacles to overcome if they hope to win and there is the possibility this will turn into a 1st Amendment case making it even harder for either plaintiff to win. A few weeks ago a columnist (I wish I could remember which one) asked why not one Mitchell-named player was talking about suing Mitchell or the commission or MLB. I believe the columnist suggested the reason was that the named players all know what the report says is true and truth is a defense to defamation. Although truth is normally a defense, I think most courts would deem a suit like that a 1st Amendment case involving public figures and related matters of clear public concern and the chances of the player winning would be slim. Not to draw this out much longer but a player/plaintiff would have to show that Mitchell and Pallies knew their report falsely accused a player or that they accused a player with reckless disregard to the truth (that is, they failed to make a reasonable investigation before they published an accusation). That, I believe, is why no one is suing Mitchell and MLB.

by Copter OBob on Jan 7, 2008 12:05 PM CST up reply actions

....question

.....what point was Roger trying to make by bringing up the fact that McNamee emailed to use his fishing equipment?

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Jan 7, 2008 1:36 PM CST up reply actions

I guess it was

the same point he tried to make by saying he was willing to take pain killing injections to pitch in the world series. It really had nothing to do with what is going on here, and he tried to paint McNamee as dis-loyal by saying he contacted him after speaking with Mitchell.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jan 7, 2008 1:49 PM CST up reply actions

The point was

to show that he's been used, that his feelings are hurt and that none of us can know what he has to put up with. I mean c'mon, we haven't given him and inch, not one single inch!! We didn't know how bad Roger has it, but now we do, thanks to that bastard McNamee calling and asking to borrow his fishing gear. What a user.

I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey

by pageian on Jan 7, 2008 3:07 PM CST up reply actions

Clemens

He should have had his kids sit next to him in the interview, then we would know the hurt and pain that he's going through and how it's affecting his family. That worked for Bonds ;)

"Dad gum right this games gonna be played under protest. . . I guarantee this is gonna be one protest that's upheld." --Hawk Harrelson, 6/24/07

by RynoHoF on Jan 7, 2008 3:16 PM CST up reply actions

...may have worked for Bonds

....but Dusty got torched for it. Damn Dusty and his adorable child

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Jan 7, 2008 3:23 PM CST up reply actions

The problem is

Our opinions on his guilt can surely change if we find out that he's innocent, that McNamee is lying etc... Those things can be determined. At this point though everything that's been determined points to Clemens using PED's, and the only thing he has going for him is his word. It's not just McNamee's testimony, it's also Clemens detailed statistical profile that we have to go off of, and that profile sets him apart from almost every other person who's ever played the game at his age. So, do I believe that Roger Clemens is telling the truth and that he really is special in comparison to every other pitcher who has played the game, or do I believe that like hundreds of other players during this generation Clemens used PED's and that use happened to coincide with his unusual late career resurgence? Really, the answer is obvious.

It's okay to give someone the benefit of the doubt, but for how long are you going to hold on to the notion that Clemens is telling the truth just because he says so? What does it take to remove the doubt? I've seen enough by now that I don't doubt Clemens used PED's.

I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey

by pageian on Jan 7, 2008 10:37 AM CST up reply actions

Also...

... I doubt that the Feds said, "Give us a big name or we're sending you to jail." This isn't a Greg Anderson situation.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Jan 7, 2008 10:44 AM CST up reply actions

George Mitchell doesn't need

that kind of headache. Clemens name was a by-product of this report. Like everything else in the Clemens life, he thinks he is the sun, the moon, the earth and the stars. This ego-maniac things everything is about him. Sorry Roger--you are just another name in the report.

Roger: you are just another old baseball man trying to extend your career with an illegal edge and you got caught. Move on to Celebrity Apprentice. I am sure that you and Trump can match egos for a while.

I can't wait for 2008!

by LAcarl519 on Jan 7, 2008 7:29 PM CST up reply actions

It's Clemen's word vs McNamee

no doubt, and that is how you have to look at this. Chances are Clemens is going on this offensive because it is his nature, and also because he knows there are no other witnesses or a paper trail.

Clemens is trying to retain his legacy and get into the HOF without a huge cloud hanging over his head. For a guy of his nature, there is tremendous motivation to do everything he can to go on the attack.

McNamee is another issue. The thought that he sold out Clemens to stay out of jail is complete BS. Does anyone really think the Feds told him to give us a big name or your going down? The feds could care less about prosecuting the players taking the stuff, they want the people supplying the controled substances. McNamee had incentive to tell the truth about how he worked with players, not to lie. This is why Bonds was indicted, they gave him imunity if he told the truth, but if you lead them down the wrong road, they will be harder on you than if you never said word one.

I would be surprised if Clemens answered questions in front of congress, but he may take that chance if he knows for sure, the only evidence against him is the testimony of McNamee.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jan 7, 2008 10:50 AM CST up reply actions

Before Congress

I'm not sure about this, but I think I heard that he would sue no matter what as a means to not talk to Congress. The theory is he could choose not to discuss his situation due to impending legal matters in the court. I dont know if this is grounds not to talk to congress or not?

2007 is the year, I can feel it in my bones.

by indytaz on Jan 7, 2008 10:39 AM CST reply actions

IANAL...

... but I doubt it. I think Congress can subpoena him regardless of pending legal action.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Jan 7, 2008 10:44 AM CST up reply actions

They can subpoena him

but the previous point is a good one. Clemen's attorneys my have filed so they can say he has to plead the 5th because of pending legan action.

That would beg the obvious question; then why go on 60 minutes?

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jan 7, 2008 10:54 AM CST up reply actions

If subpoenaed he has to testify

He can take the 5th, refusing to answer any question that might incriminate himself. That would be viewed, however, as basically an admission of guilt. He will essentially have "McGwired" himself at that point. Knowing that outcome, he'd be far better off just coming clean now -- which is why I think he might be telling the truth.

I am tending to believe Clemens at this point. If he goes to Congress and basically says the same thing he said last night, I'd be even more inclined to believe him. It's one thing to risk your HOF ticket, quite another to perjure yourself. If he had actually done steroids once or twice he would have been far better off coming out like Pettitte. If he was a chronic user it's only a matter of time before the information will see the light of day.

by DaveinHouston on Jan 7, 2008 12:32 PM CST up reply actions

With all due respect

Clemens doesn't seem like the brightest bulb and he didn't do himself any favors last night. If you believe he's innocent that's cool but I think he's lying, I think he got caught and now instead of doing the intelligent thing he's going to try and compete and beat the rap. I'm sure that in the fantasy world he lives in he feels like he didn't do anything wrong, so maybe that's why he seems believable to you, he honestly doesn't think he did anything wrong. Or maybe he knows he did wrong but doesn't think he should get punished for it because, you know, he's Roger Clemens. Clemens likely won't testify if he can get out of it and if he cannot then he will plead the 5th. McGwire didn't have any impending legal proceedings or a built in excuse for not talking, Clemens does and no doubt he'll use it. He won't say anything relevant in front of congress.

I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey

by pageian on Jan 7, 2008 3:15 PM CST up reply actions

I didn't say I thought he was innocent...

I said I thought he was telling the truth. If I had to put it on a spectrum, I'd say I was about 65% confident he was telling the truth.

I don't think he's a rocket scientist either, but it doesn't take one to see that stonewalling and lying doesn't get you anywhere (See Raphael Palmiero, Mark McGwire, Pres. Clinton for great examples). His buddy Andy showed how to handle these situations and I can't believe Roger's stupid enough to do the opposite.

by DaveinHouston on Jan 7, 2008 3:56 PM CST up reply actions

Stubborn people

with huge egos, can do some pretty stupid things.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jan 7, 2008 4:03 PM CST up reply actions

I'm just not sure what Clemens is trying to do

Would Clemens really try and take this to court? If he did then all he would have to prove is McNamee is lying about the injections not that Clemens never used steroids. Seems a little easier but it would be very interesting if McNamee's side called Pettitte. I would pay to see that.

I'm also wondering who will pay McNamee's lawyer bills. I wonder if Clemens may be trying to win by bankrupting McNamee or at least threatening to. Seems to me that Clemens strategy has to be to avoid a trial. He would have too much to lose there.

by rlpete on Jan 7, 2008 11:24 AM CST reply actions

If Clemens

is vindictive enouph, it could be he would love nothing better than to run up a nice legal tab for McNamee. It also could be that is part of a "smoke screen" strategy by Clemens.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jan 7, 2008 11:29 AM CST up reply actions

Off topic...

...Andre Dawson is on Jim Rome this afternoon on ESPN.

Dan

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Jan 7, 2008 12:11 PM CST reply actions

Just wonderin'...

if Clemens and Petitte are still on speaking terms. If Clemens' lawsuit goes to trial (which is doubtful), certainly Petitte would have to testify.

"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007

by DeRoMyHero on Jan 7, 2008 12:57 PM CST reply actions

I got your back, Wreckard

I too am not a steroid apologist, but as I've said before, there's no real proof here yet, so this is still in the "he said, he said" stage. I am certainly not a Clemens apologist either - just trying to play devil's advocate or in this case, asshole's advocate.

In the absence of any tangible evidence, after "stubborn cuss" and "guilty as charged", "McNamee lying" certainly has to be a third option. Otherwise what you're setting up is a rigged poll, like a few we've seen in BCB here lately.

I hope he testifies in front of Congress and I hope he gets some tough questions. Personally, I don't think Clemens is smart enough to know how to walk through an interrogation minefield, i.e. "lawyer up". So if he's guilty, he's arrogant and bullheaded enough that he'll quickly trip himself up with his testimony. And if he's innocent, then he'll be equally arrogant and bullheaded, but with nothing to hide, he won't get in trouble.

Here's my final (for now) point. It would seem Clemens now has a very smart lawyer. So for all the people who make the argument "why would McNamee lie if by doing so, the Feds will send him to jail", I think you can now make the argument "why would Clemens lie under oath before Congress" because I'm sure his lawyer, Rusty Hardin has or will lay out all the consequences for Roger. And seeing as how Hardin's a good ol' boy from Houston, I'm sure he'll put it in words that even Roger can understand.

(I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that discussion...)

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Jan 7, 2008 12:59 PM CST reply actions

I agree with your last paragragh

and certainly, his attorney will run him through the gamet of what agreeing to testifying means.

With that said, Clemens certainly knows the true facts regarding the allegations as well as McNamee. My point is this; if Clemens is confident the only evidence against him is McNamee's word, he would be more likely to testify and not plead the 5th.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jan 7, 2008 1:13 PM CST reply actions

What troubles me...

...about all the righteous anger being expressed about this PED issue is that most of it is directed toward three guys who are pricks. No one's going to testify that Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens or Rafael Palmiero are good guys or wonderful role models. They're the ones taking the brunt of the public's outrage. Yet, when a guy comes out and says, yeah I did the juice - someone like Andy Pettitte; someone who's not generally recognized as a jerk - people suddenly aren't so teed off. That's crazy! I thought PEDs were ruining our sport. I thought we couldn't trust our heroes any more. Yet all a guy has to do is say Aw shucks, yeah, I did it, and he's alright. All I ask is for people to consider the facts, not the personalities.

by 100yearsofineptitude on Jan 7, 2008 1:39 PM CST reply actions

Apologies

Before he tested positive I had always thought Palmeiro had a solid reputation as a decent man and a good teammate. And perhaps he was. Bonds and Clemens are far more controversial personalities but in Palmeiro's case I think most people responded so strongly because he lied. Palmeiro may have intensified eventual public outrage by being so insistent during his testimony. I get the sense that after he was caught lying, an apology would have done little to restore the public reputation he had enjoyed. Maybe the public accepts apologies readily but believes apologies expire immediately upon the revelation of something genuinely insincere like the discovery of a lie.

It's been said many times before but this is a pretty forgiving country if one plays the apology game well. Time will tell if Pettitte gets a free pass. I'm guessing he won't. There will probably be consequences for him even if he's not suspended but if he had lied about it first the consequences would probably be greater. 100years, you might not include yourself among them (I'm not sure I do either), but I think most people in this country place a very high value on apology. I wish I could explain why people value the apology so highly but I can't. I have no adequate explanation. Best I can suggest is we watch out for the non-apology because that tactic has become common. "I'm sorry you feel that way." "I'm sorry my words were misinterpreted." "I'm sorry but.."

by Copter OBob on Jan 7, 2008 2:19 PM CST up reply actions

The gossip not long after Ryne Sandberg retired...

.. was that Raffy Palmiero had a lot to do with it (as well as Davey Martinez). That really knocked his image down a few pegs. But, like Clemens, Sosa, et al doing steroids and/or HGH, it was based on a lot of supposition. What was more provable was the fact that Raffy was rather disliked in just about every locker room he inhabited - and not just because he was handsome and fairly randy. And by the way, has anybody ever considered the possibility that Palmiero wasn't lying before the Congressional committee? That maybe, just maybe, he stupidly starting juicing some time after his testimony? Remember, ballplayers as a rule aren't, shall we say, professorial.

by 100yearsofineptitude on Jan 7, 2008 7:49 PM CST up reply actions

Chicken or the Egg?

Maybe if Clemens and Bonds would have come out and admitted their use they wouldn't be so vilified. I'm not saying that Clemens was ever super liked, but before this whole episode he wasn't disliked by the majority, which he may well be now.

For the record, I'm one of the "nothing has been proven" crowd. At this point, it's only one person's word against another. I'm not yet willing to go so far as to say he's guilty of the charges made against him.

by NO100 on Jan 7, 2008 2:50 PM CST up reply actions

In the case of Bonds and Clemens

it's also that they broke all-time baseball records. Records in baseball are much more important and revered than any other sport. It's a lot harder to get upset at someone like Alex Sanchez. Until the Congressional hearings, I don't think people thought badly of Palmeiro. His arrogant answers and then being caught is what made everyone turn against him. Before then, his reputation wasn't that bad.

The only other one in this class is McGwire and he caught a lot of public flak over his poor performance in Congress. I don't think he's thought of any better than Bonds or Clemens but you don't hear much about him because he's pretty much out of sight. He also never denied it.

Finally, in general the country is pretty forgiving to famous people who show some level of regret. It's not just sports either. Politicians and Hoolywood also frequently use the "I'm sorry" bit when they get in trouble. It usually works to some degree.

by rlpete on Jan 7, 2008 3:32 PM CST up reply actions

Part of being a prick

in these cases is lashing out at the general public while vehemently denying their actions...when it APPEARS obvious that they are guilty as charged.

So yes...being a prick is why I dislike Bonds and Clemens so much but it does not mean that my comments about admitting guilt, and learning a bit of humility excuse the others.

In this case, part of NOT being a prick, is not acting like bull headed idiots, as these two have, in the face of controversy.

Andy pettite is not innocent, he simply has a lot more class to admit wrong doing and trying to move on. This is why when this all blows up in Clemens's face, I will be happy.

MMMMM...my mother-in-law's homemade ravioli!

by Kinky Reggae on Jan 7, 2008 3:46 PM CST up reply actions

I wish

it was Schilling getting busted....after I learned to live with Jim Edmonds Schilling became my least favorite player.

I want to punch him in the face.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Jan 7, 2008 3:52 PM CST up reply actions

clemens--not guilty!!!!!!

ok ive posted this before and was greeted with wheres your proof? clemens has filed a defamation lawsuit,clemens put his phone conversation with mcnamee on live tv. in which he said i'm not guilty and not one time did he(mcnamee) come back with yes you were.

mcnamee sounds like a dirt bag whose trying to stay oughtta jail and keep making a living by way of his high profile friends or clients.

clemens is going to congress and is doing what is necessary in my eyes to prove his innonence. i know all about "lie detector tests" and they are no more than an interrogation tool. they in no way prove one way or another.

now my turn--for those of you who keep saying he's guilty--WHERES YOUR PROOF?? show me a positive drug tests. show me pictures or tape recordings of clemens taking or talking about steroids. none of us have hard proof one way or another,but as of right now we know for sure mcnamee was giving an ultimatem tell the truth or go to jail. did he?? he sure didnt sound like it on tape.

so i will end like this clemens in my eyes is innocent and will be until he is proven guilty. everyone that has been accused has the means to defend themselves and have not. clemens is doing so. i'm not turning a blind eye to a problem that has been going on behind scenes for however long,but to tarnish a mans image just because we think or he/she said is nothing more than bull....!! saying things like well he didnt sound or he didnt look doesnt constitute as evidence either.

GO CUBS GO!!!!!

by cubsluver22 on Jan 7, 2008 5:11 PM CST reply actions

saw this also

seems pretty damning that McNamee never responded to Clemens by saying that Clemens actually took steroids.

Seems to me that McNamee very well might have made everything about Clemens up.

MURTON!!!

by tal1286 on Jan 7, 2008 5:17 PM CST up reply actions

My response

would be why didn't Clemens respond to McNamee's numerous offers of 'what do you want me to do' with a definitive reponse of tell the truth and say I didn't do steriods? If Clemens has been falsely accused, why didn't he give McNamee a straight answer to a simple question?

At one point, McNamee said 'the truth is what it is' and Clemens said nothing.

This did nothing to change my opinion in regards to who is lying and Clemens was extremely vague in how he responded.

Furthermore, if McNamee was as grateful as he appeared to be to Clemens, why would he hang Clemens out to dry? He told Clemens at one point; what do you want me to do go to jail? To me, that was an offer to lie to protect Clemens as opposed to a lie in saying he did steriods.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jan 7, 2008 5:46 PM CST up reply actions

My response

At one point, McNamee said 'the truth is what it is' and Clemens said nothing.

This did nothing to change my opinion in regards to who is lying and Clemens was extremely vague in how he responded.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jan 7, 2008 5:48 PM CST up reply actions

Sorry

Double post

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jan 7, 2008 5:53 PM CST up reply actions

well said...

..I agree completely. This did nothing to change my mind, except reinforce the fact that Clemens is a dirt bag. Amazing that he taped the conversation and took it public. A desperate move by someone who is trying to rewrite history and convince others like he has convinced himself that he did nothing wrong.

Let me get back to you, will ya, Charlie? I got a guy on the other line asking about some white walls.

by JB 23 on Jan 7, 2008 6:25 PM CST up reply actions

Could have been a setup

If Clemens responded to McNamee's "what do you want me to say" he'd be accused of tampering with a witness in a Federal investigation -- maybe he's smarter than I gave him credit for earlier.

by DaveinHouston on Jan 8, 2008 7:30 AM CST up reply actions

But couldn't this phone

call itself, including the way in which Clemens publicized it be tantamount to witness tampering? I mean, if Clemens was Joey Lombardo, and he was pulbicizing recorded phone calls with possible Federal witnesses and threatening vastly expensive lawsuits, a judge might have had his ass in court already for tampering...

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Jan 8, 2008 7:44 AM CST up reply actions

I don't buy that

all he had to say is; I need you to tell the truth about me. Asking a witness to tell the truth is what the legal system is looking for, isn't it?

The more I think about this thing, the more of a circus it really is. Clemens is simply not acting like an innocent man with nothing to hide. McNamee even asked Clemens if he wanted him to come to the press conference. Why didn't Clemens say you are welcome as long as you tell the truth. I think we all can figure out why that response was not given.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jan 8, 2008 8:49 AM CST up reply actions

I actually agree...to an extent.

I think McNamee is full of shit and Clemens will win any lawsuit based on McNamee's willingness to do anything. He could never be trusted. I also doubt McNamee injected Clemens with anything. He was as full of shit as anyone I've seen in recent years. A pathetic man.

Where I disagree is that Clemens is still, more than likely, not innocent. I'd bet a lot of money that Clemens, and many, many others not named yet have taken steroids.

Bottom line based on this phone recording...McNamee is a piece of shit. Harder to imagine someone being a bigger pile of crap than Clemens, but McNamee is that.

by Maddog on Jan 7, 2008 6:32 PM CST up reply actions

Clemens...

... has already admitted to being injected by McNamee with something.

Neither one of these men is very upstanding, but I think McNamee has little to lose by telling the truth and a lot to lose by lying.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Jan 7, 2008 6:59 PM CST up reply actions

i dunno

I went into the 60 minutes interview being convinced that Clemens had used. I left being unsure and wanting proof from someone other than McNamee. There isn't any to my knowledge. This is a 100% different case than Barry Bonds and comparing the two is somewhat foolish in my opinion. I'm not saying you personally did, Al, but others have. While Bonds has given sworn testimony that he did do steroids, Clemens hasn't.

At first the phone conversation put me off. I was stunned that it seemed that Clemens had surreptitiously tape recorded the call. This fear was set aside later in Sportscenter when it seemed that the Anchors said that McNamee knew. And really, Clemens, or at the very least, the lawyer sitting next to Clemens would know that doing that would be borderline illegal.

As to why I think Clemens came out looking better from all this...

Reasons -

Clemens had an incredible first season in Toronto. McNamee claimed to have started injecting Clemens the year [i]after[/i] that. So you would have to believe that Clemens got steroids from some other unnamed source but then switched to get steroids from McNamee. Why would he have done this if the original were obviously so successful? Worth thinking about.

I don't know about you but McNamee seemed to me to be someone who couldn't possibly have been more desperate. He's under duress during a criminal investigation. Also, evidently his son is having all kinds of health issues. Seems as though nothing was going his way. And while it may seem absurd, maybe he felt like he needed another big name, or maybe an overzealous prosecutor wanted a big name and he made it up.

To some of you it may seem ridiculous to give Clemens the benefit of the doubt. But who knows. The conventional wisdom says that he was done after his Boston years and steroids are mostly responsible for everything after. But look back. In 1995, his second to last year in Boston, he had a down year. His ERA was 4.18. But is it as bad as originally thought? His ERA+ was still 116. That is a below average year for Clemens but decidedly not a bad year. 1996 was his last year in Boston and his ERA was 3.63 so looking at his track record it might seem that he had a bad year. But, look again...again. His ERA+ was 139. That is a great year by most standards. In New York, Clemens was up and down but was never worse than league average according to ERA+. Obviously the numbers went through the roof in Houston but have there been examples of great pitchers having great years in their 40s?

It turns out that yes, there are examples:

Cy Young: ERA+ of 194 at 41 two years removed from an awful year with an ERA+ of 86.

Nolan Ryan: Only player with a better K/9 at the ages of 41 and 42. When he was 42, Nolan Ryan had an incredible 11.32 K/9 compared to only 7.88 for Clemens. I don't know if you think Ryan was on steroids but somehow I doubt it. This proves that you can be a power pitcher at an old age.

I could go on and on. Randy Johnson had an outstanding year at 40 in Arizona after struggling the year before for example.

Wow, I just spent a half hour defending Clemens. Basically, what I'm saying is that you might think that Clemens did steroids and that's fine. You have the word of a desperate man and nothing else. Maybe he did and maybe he didn't. I honestly don't know. There is a precedent for people pitching this well in their early 40s.

Maybe I'm being naive but I know that I would like to see at least a little HARD evidence before I convict Roger Clemens in my mind.

MURTON!!!

by tal1286 on Jan 7, 2008 10:43 PM CST up reply actions

The problem, Al,

is that we simply don't know what went on behind those closed doors when the feds were forcing McNamee to talk to Mitchell. They may have told him that you give up Clemens or you go to jail and then, all of a sudden, he has every reason to lie and no reason to tell the truth.

We don't know what happened, but I'm not about to take the word of this scumbag even for a player that I already know and have known for years has taken steroids or other PEDs.

by Maddog on Jan 7, 2008 11:09 PM CST up reply actions

So the "22" in your name

wouldn't be in honor of anyone in particular would it? :-)

To buy this crap from Clemens, you must be related to the jerk, or from Texas...or both. Who else would buy this BS?

But anyway, back to the facts: both McNamee AND Clemens talked through each other on that phone call. I am sure that McNamee's attorney told him there was a high probablity that the phone call was being recorded by your 22-love, so McNamee was told to not answer any questions directly or argue with Clemens.

Also, as others point out in response to you, Clemens never responded to McNamee's request to tell McNamee what he wanted him to do. Both guys just talked around each other for 17 minutes. I thought the whole call proved nothing except that Clemens has a huge ego and thinks the world revolves around him.

Clemens has a very interesting answer when anyone from the press asks him what he thinks about steroid/HGH users. Old #22 is very accepting of this cheating, all of a sudden. It is clear he doesn't want to tarnish his chances of getting into the HoF by having a video tape out there of saying anything negative about steroid/HGH use, when he knows that there are still smoking guns related to his use out there.

GUILTY as charged...

I have had this hunch about #22 for the last 5-7 years. I didn't need the Mitchell report to confirm my suspicions.

I can't wait for 2008!

by LAcarl519 on Jan 7, 2008 7:51 PM CST up reply actions

Off topic: Andre Dawson

Since the HOF announcement comes out tomorrow, if Dawson is on it, would he go into the Hall as a Cub or Expo? What about Lee Smith?

Live is boring until March 31st strolls by..

by Chanman25 on Jan 7, 2008 5:32 PM CST reply actions

I don't think it's the player's choice anymore

IIRC, thanks to Wade Boggs going in as a Devil Ray, even though he was there for only two seasons. He had some sort of bonus clause in his contract or something like that.

Not sure who has the final say, some HOF committee I would imagine, but I know they're supposed to take the player's wishes into consideration.

That being said, I think the numbers would dictate he go in as an Expo - 10 full seasons there vs 6 with the Cubs, good production in all of them. I know Andre loved his time in Chicago so if it were up to him, he might say Cubs. Not sure if MLB, has any input here. If so, I'd imagine they would NOT want to bring any more attention to the Montreal franchise that Bud, Jeffrey Loria and friends brought to an unseemly and very profitable (to them) end.

BTW - I remember when team choice was a big issue when Carlton Fisk was inducted. More known as a Red Sox, but more time as a White Sox. My solution, given that Pudge was a catcher, would have been him wearing a hat backwards, ergo no team logo. Problem solved.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Jan 7, 2008 6:23 PM CST up reply actions

He goes in as a Cub

Under ordinary circumstances it might be a close call with his
MVP year with the Cubs etc but given the fact that THE EXPOS do not exist and had almost no fans when they did Vs millions of big spending Cubs fans, the HOF guys are not stupid and they want a crowd. I won't go to Cooperstown until either Hawk gets in or Maddux gets in ( Yes I know he goes in as Brave but I am going).

"It's the Cubbies. There's always a vibe. It's the greatest vibe in baseball." Greg Maddux on Cub fan's optimism even after the 06 debacle.

by jessica on Jan 7, 2008 6:28 PM CST up reply actions

Dawson goes in as an Expo.

The man was in the decline of his career as a Cub. The best years of his career were from 1980-1983 when he was consistently one of the best outfielders in the game.

The Hall of Fame is about worthless anymore so who knows, but he absolutely should NOT go in the HOF as a Cub. I don't think he should be there in the first place, but he was a broken down shell of his former self in Chicago compared to Montreal. He had many, many more productive years in Montreal than he did in Chicago.

by Maddog on Jan 7, 2008 6:35 PM CST up reply actions

He did...

... but his MVP season was as a Cub, and he hit 174 HR in only 6 Cub seasons. That's good for tenth on the all-time Cub list.

Baseball-reference lists all Expo leaders as Nationals, as one franchise. Dawson hit 225 HR as an Expo -- that's second on that franchise list to Vladimir Guerrero.

Obviously, HR aren't the only criterion, just a quick-and-dirty method. Dawson is also 2nd on the Expo/National list for RBI, triples, total bases, at-bats, and third in doubles, stolen bases and hits. He won ROY as an Expo and finished 2nd in MVP voting twice there, and probably does deserve to go in as an Expo.

But I think it's a closer call than you do.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Jan 7, 2008 7:05 PM CST up reply actions

Al, I really don't think it's close.

57% of his career plate appearances were while he was an Expo. Only 33% of his career PA's occurred while a Cub.

He played 576 more games as an Expo than he did a Cub.

He had 646 more hits. 146 more doubles (almost twice as many doubles as he had as a Cub). 40 more triples. 51 more home runs. More than 1000 total bases more in Montreal than in Chicago.

Almost twice as many runs scored. 251 more RBIs.

81% of his stolen bases were while he was an Expo and this is one of the big reasons why he garners support (he didn't have this ability as a Cub).

He had a higher slugging as a Cub, but that's easily explained by the difference in parks.

He played only 6 seasons with the Cubs. He played nearly twice as many seasons with the Expos (11).

I won't bore you with advanced metrics with the exception of one. Dawson had a career WARP3 total of 105.3. 67.3 of those came while with the Expos. 35 came as a Cub.

It's entirely possible, if he ever gets in, that they allow him to go in as a Cub, but it would be unfair. As much as Cubs fans want to have that memory, it's not ours. His career was nearly over when he left Montreal. He had a couple really good years left, but other than that, he wasn't that great. I don't believe he has any business being in the HOF as anything other than an Expo. Truthfully, Al, I'll actually always remember him as an Expo and not as a Cub. I remember the years he played with the Cubs and loved watching him play, but he was an always an Expo to me and always will be. I'd be very surprised to see him go in with any other hat on.

by Maddog on Jan 7, 2008 10:56 PM CST up reply actions

Yes and no

My understanding is that all things being equal, the player has the choice. So Dawson could choose between the Expos and Cubs since both were major parts of his career. However the HoF likely would not let him go in as a Marlin.

DmL

by dmlichte on Jan 7, 2008 8:26 PM CST up reply actions

I liked the "Third eye" part best

McNamee's testimony is that he injected Clemens I think about 20-25 times over several non consecutive seasons and Roger wants us to believe that this would cause a major physical deformity. Well if that would cause a third eye than Jose Canseco can star in a remake of THE THOUSAND EYES OF DR. MABUSE and Bonds would have had so many eyes he would NEVER has missed a pitch.
He wants us to believe either that steroids could do this or he is so ignorant of them he thinks they could.
I also love his outrage that his "reputation" did not allow him the benefit of the doubt ( Um Roger it is your REPUTATION that got everyone to believe it so quickly and suspect it for so long). He also talked about all the things he has done for the game and in private life, again if he had not been such an infamously self centered publicity hog, he might have at least been cut a little slack.

Wonder if he might still be considering a career in politics?

PS I am stuck at work not able to see the press conference but
I gather he took no questions after the tape. FYI for those who
think it proves him innocent, I gather all McNamee was break down and say he would go to jail for Clemens. Hmm sounds like
Brian Anderson to me and we all know Barry is innocent. IF McNamee made it all up wouldn't he say something like I am sorry I made it up and it never happened ? The tape sounds like nothing more than Roger and his lawyers trying to make things sound good.

"It's the Cubbies. There's always a vibe. It's the greatest vibe in baseball." Greg Maddux on Cub fan's optimism even after the 06 debacle.

by jessica on Jan 7, 2008 5:38 PM CST reply actions

no, he fielded questions for about 20-30 minutes

from the crowd. said he was going to go to congress and answer any question about himself.

"If you play more than two chords, you're showing off."--Woody Guthrie

by buckmulligan on Jan 7, 2008 6:27 PM CST up reply actions

that being said,

i still thought the most interesting thing in the tape was clemens's failure to tell macnamee to tell the truth as 'mac' repeatedly asked clemens what he wanted him (mac) to do. a couple times clemens said that he just wanted the truth to come out. but, he never really said it as a response to the repeated inquiries by mac. and the situation screamed for the response. that makes me suspect something's up.

"If you play more than two chords, you're showing off."--Woody Guthrie

by buckmulligan on Jan 7, 2008 6:30 PM CST up reply actions

The actions of an innocent man.

At least in this instance. I think it's an almost certainty that McNamee is lying out his ass and hopefully the feds send him to prison and the Mitchell Report is then burned because it's just not of any value at all. If Mitchell was taking this man's word, Mitchell needs to be put in a hospital himself. How irresponsible can you be?

by Maddog on Jan 7, 2008 6:37 PM CST up reply actions

McNamee told the truth about Petitte

Was that an accident , a coincidence? If Petittle had said it wasn't true you would have been even more likely to believe him given his "better " rep. Guess what witnesses in most criminal cases
are dirt bags. THe use dirt bags to get other dirt bads as in this case. McNamee was vetted by Federal agents long before he talked to Mitchell. He is part of an ongoing CRIMINAL investigation on steroids. There is a good column up now on one of the sports sites well actually two. One rips the contents of the defamation suite as being nothing but a propoganda move and containing mostly extranious info ( best bits Roger was raised by a single Mom and did not get enough run support in 2006 obviously crucial facts to prove defamation but only of the
Astros hitters). The second one says Clemens and his lawyers made a big mistake going after McNamee because as a Federal witness he was an important part of their investigation and now they will go after Clemens to support him,
FYI I will get home soon but any questions or answers on things like the B12 & Licocain injections , perscriptions , why he would
take them etc?

"It's the Cubbies. There's always a vibe. It's the greatest vibe in baseball." Greg Maddux on Cub fan's optimism even after the 06 debacle.

by jessica on Jan 7, 2008 6:48 PM CST up reply actions

agree

I am tired of Roger Clemens and others who continue to deny and freaking allegation to the point of making a bad skit on SNL.
His trainer gets nothing out of this, he was questioned and told the truth. What does he get out of this for lying? What? Pettite admitted it, Roger is like Pettites brother, and Roger says " I don't know Andys situation" Please Roger shut it!!
During the whole tape the trainer nevers says he lied, and Roger ask him what 3, 4 times I just want the truth and the trainer never takes back his word.
Clemens is done. Good-bye, It has always been about Roger and always will.

by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Jan 7, 2008 6:59 PM CST up reply actions

I really need spellcheck

on my posts and to maybe type a little slower. Sorry for
all the typos above. Getting a home computer that can post is
a New Year's resolution ( I can only post at the office now)
A mess I know.

"It's the Cubbies. There's always a vibe. It's the greatest vibe in baseball." Greg Maddux on Cub fan's optimism even after the 06 debacle.

by jessica on Jan 7, 2008 7:12 PM CST up reply actions

There is also

a good analysis of the phone call on SI.com from their legal expert Michael McCann.

He raised several key issues and one of them is it was telling that McNamee never admitted that he lied. Also, since only Clemens side only knew the call was being recorded, it is clearer why Clemens didn't directly tell McNamee he wanted him to tell the truth and say he didn't do steriods when McNamee kept asking him what he wanted him to do.

This is going to be a long long soap opera.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jan 7, 2008 7:40 PM CST up reply actions

Is it legal

in the state of Texas, to record a person without their knowledge? I pretty sure this sort of thing is illegal in Illinois and I wonder if Texas has the same sort of statute.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Jan 7, 2008 7:42 PM CST up reply actions

They said

it was legal in some states, with Texas being one of them.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jan 7, 2008 7:44 PM CST up reply actions

Alot of what Clemens said made sense

I had predetermined that Clemens was guilty before the show last night and no matter what he said I wouldn't believe him. I'm on the fence now. The guy was believable to me, I can't help it. I remember a lengthy SI article about him not long before he faced Kerry Wood at Wrigley--maybe 2003? The guy's workout regimen was off the charts; like no one else's except Walter Payton's in it's rigor.

The gaps in his performance peaks and valleys don't consistently align with McNamee's story either. Interesting all the way around. Another very good point Clemens made is how he hasn't fallen apart. That's actually a great point. Glenallen Hill, Big Mac and others paid and almost immediate price. Sammy couldn't stay healthy there for awhile either.

BBWAA's name should be changed to "Power in the hands of Fools"

by cubfever7 on Jan 7, 2008 8:42 PM CST up reply actions

And

a whole bunch of what he said made no sense, especially coming from someone who says they are being falsely accused.

If you recall, he stated on 60 minutes that he had no clue McNamee accusations would be in the Mitchell report until it came out. Well, it came out today that McNamee called him 8 days before it came out because he felt badly he had to give up the goods. There was even talk of Clemens going public before the Mitchell report was released to combat the allegations before the report, but his attorneys advised against it.

He simply is not acting like someone who has been falsely accused. If he was, when he spoke with McNamee on the phone, why wasn't the first question this; "why did you lie and say I did steriods? The reason he didn't do that is simple; Clemens knew the conversation was being recorded and he was afraid what McNamee's response would be.

People can certainly believe what they wish, but this guy is not acting like an innocent man would.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jan 7, 2008 9:32 PM CST up reply actions

McNamee v. Clemens

But again, that's what McNamee says in regard to the phone call 8 days prior. Clemens says that he had just talked to him the day before about borrowing fishing equipment in Cabo and no mention of any kind was made. The thing about "there was talk of going public" beforehand seems vague. How substantiated is it?

I work with a lot of guys from Texas; one has spent time around Clemens is a sports setting and he has never hesitated to say that Roger's a king sized blow hole/jerk. He has his flaws, but my guess is that Roger used at some point, but in a minor fashion relative to the scope of the problem league wide. His ego refuses to allow him to come all the way clean though because of his legacy and the fact that he's Roger Clemens. Strictly my opinion, but again, I had him tried, convicted and hung before the interview and just watching his eyes and body language, I saw some unease and maybe some guilt, but I also saw some credibility.

BBWAA's name should be changed to "Power in the hands of Fools"

by cubfever7 on Jan 8, 2008 4:51 AM CST up reply actions

You know with all this talk about

body language and subliminal messages, Mike Golic raised a good point on Mike and Mike In the Morning this a.m.: Why does Roger keep mentioning how expensive this lawsuit is going to be? This is a man who will never lack for cash, yet the constant refrain is "now I spend all this money to clear my name." Golic went on to speculate that perhaps Roger is trying to scare off MacNamee by waving money in his face. Roger's got the money to fight a protracted civil case; I'm going to go out on a limb and say MacNamee doesn't have the same resources that Roger does. So Roger, who probably doesn't want to be deposed, is bluff MacNamee by threatening him with economics. I think it's an intersting point to raise, especially from a guy--Mike Golic, in this case--who claims to remain unconvinced of Roger's guilt in the matter.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Jan 8, 2008 7:03 AM CST up reply actions

If it was just Lidocaine and B-12,

then Clemens should be able to clear up this matter with a few receipts for the B-12 and prescriptions for the lidocaine. Of course, if he can't do that, there are three possiblities:

1.) Clemens is a slob who doesn't bother, as professional athlete, constantly under suspiscion (his words, from last night) to make sure he's got documentation for any medications he might be injecting into his body. Not a crime, but terribly irresponsible in this day and age.

2.) It really was just lidocaine, but Clemens obtained it without a prescription and therefore, while not guitly of taking steroids, has now admitted to wire fraud or insurance fraud.

3.) It wasn't really lidocaine or B-12 and Clemens was so hopped up on HGH and/or steroids he's fried his brain and doesn't even realize how he's painted himself into a corner.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Jan 7, 2008 7:06 PM CST reply actions

Clemens is screwed

Likely, the lawsuit against McNamee is a dodge for Congress. Now that it's filed, when questioned, he's going to say he can't talk because of his pending litigation. He has yet to be subpoenaed by Congress so he's beaten them to the punch. They can't compel him to talk and make him jeopardize his suit. Does this "McGwire" him? Yes, but he's a bit more of an excuse to do that (albeit flimsy) than McGwire.
The tape of McNamee and Clemens does nothing to make Clemens look good at all. If anything, it bolsters McNamee. McNamee's going to jail, regardless. The non-answers to "what do you want me to do?" kill.
Lidocaine is a very specific drug to inject. Not all doctors like to do it. According to doctors on the radio this a.m., it is meant for specific joint injections. It's a local anesthetic used primarily in dentistry. Putting it in someone's backside is pointless, unless he wanted to numb his ass. Injecting it there will do nothing, repeat, nothing for his elbow, arm, whatever. Sheer idiocy to even mention it.
No one who is innocent conducts a denial process like the one Clemens is conducting. In all my years of this type of work, people who are falsely accused offer to open up all aspects of their lives in order to clear themselves, without hesitation and/or conditions. If this defense were any more orchestrated his lead attorney would be Michael Tilson Thomas. The 60 Minutes "interview" was a sham, pure and simple.

Santo Forever!

by BeerCub on Jan 7, 2008 7:06 PM CST reply actions

Exactly.

Roger the Rocket has become Roger the Dodger.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Jan 7, 2008 7:08 PM CST up reply actions

I listened to the tape a while ago...

and I thought McNamee was going to start crying at one point. The stuff about his son made me feel bad for him. It has nothing to do with the case, but it's definitely something that could come into play for McNamee.

Also, for all the anger Roger said he had he didn't sound that mad at 'Mac'. It was like he was telling a little boy he did something wrong. I would think he wouldn't even talk to him. Although Roger did say that he treated him like everyone else and MacNamee kept saying he treated him like family. I don't know if I would talk to him after doing something like that to me, and if I did talk I would tell him to tell the truth. I thought Clemens didn't ask for anything from him directly for some legal reason.

"I don't talk. I just let what I do talk for myself." -Johan Santana

by sparkles721 on Jan 8, 2008 6:17 PM CST up reply actions

dirt

Clemens is a total dirtball for taping and releasing the call, but especially for bringing the boy into it.

by BJ on Jan 8, 2008 10:55 PM CST up reply actions

Desperation,

thy name is Roger Clemens. He's grasping at straws at this point. Threatening people using their families, their economic situations...he's on his last legs.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Jan 8, 2008 11:02 PM CST up reply actions

Taping and releasing

that call will be the straw that broke the camel's back for Roger.

His attorney is running his defense like a political campaign, and we all know how those make us feel.

The congressional hearing is going to be extremely interesting. Not so much for what Clemens and McMamee will say (we pretty much know that), but what comes out of the Pettit appearance. For those that haven't noticed, his attorney is now saying they are not sure he will testify. Considering what has gone down in the last week, I wonder why someone who has already admitted that McNamee was telling the truth (about him) is all of a sudden hedging?

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jan 9, 2008 8:01 AM CST up reply actions

An interesting point

This was made by Terry Boers this afternoon on WSCR. Will Clemens say that he cannot testify before congress because he has a pending lawsuit? Clemens has not yet been subpoenaed and could basically say at his presser that he's going. Then tomorrow or in a few days say that his lawyers have advised him against going before congress because of his pending lawsuit.

We shall see.

DmL

by dmlichte on Jan 7, 2008 8:25 PM CST reply actions

Clemens vs Baseball

Without baseball, [Clemens is] probably driving a UPS truck in Houston. Gimme a break.

I am still laughing about this, ten minutes after reading it, because it's just SO DAMN EASY to imagine.

ScoutingBook.com: Daily Prospect Rankings, Closer Watch, and more!

by scoutingbook on Jan 7, 2008 8:32 PM CST reply actions

Deer in headlights moment...

Press: Roger, where did you get your lidocaine and B-12?

Roger: Uhhh................Brian McNamee

Your guilty!

by WUSTLCubsFan on Jan 7, 2008 9:36 PM CST reply actions

The lidocaine may bite him in the butt

To play on where he got the shots. The average trainer doesn't give lidocaine injections. They are a medical procedure. There should be a paper trail on who gave them, when, and where. A needle in a joint carries risks. I would think the team physician would need to sign off on them.

by Nibbles on Jan 7, 2008 10:40 PM CST reply actions

Here's a thought

What if the reason Clemens keeps saying he was injected with lidocaine and B12 is so that if it does come out that he took steriods, he can just say that he thought he was being injected with B12 and lidocaine? He can use what Bonds' used the whole "I never knowingly took steriods" routine. Something to think about.

"You rub snot on the ball?" Ricky Vaughn

by McRipper on Jan 8, 2008 1:39 PM CST reply actions