"The Trade": Cubs up the ante.

by fuzzycubfan on Mar 14, 2008 6:28 AM CDT Comment 168 comments

Not sure if this has been posted in the 1,785,963 1/2 posts made on the subject.

The Cubs made the deal a little bit sweeter for the Orioles. Rumors are that the Cubs send Ronny Cedeno, Sean Gallagher, Donald Veal, and Jose Ceda. The Cubs get: you know who.

Link:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/842384,CST-SPT-brian14.article

So is this a good deal?

Please note: if this has been posted or talked about somewhere else, or if this is old news, please don't flame me. If that's the case, Al, please delete this diary. Thanks guys.

Poll

The newest trade proposal: Is this a good deal?

Yes

114 votes

No

162 votes

276 votes | Poll has closed

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

0 recs | Comment 168 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

On the surface it appears

that its nearing or just over the top. Perhaps the Cubs' evaluation shows these youngsters will top out at a lower level than previously expected.

I am hoping that the thought of Marquis and cash for Payton isn't added to this. Not that I am concerned with losing Marquis but adding Payton would force Lou's hand more against Pie or Fuld.

A different article [earlier this week] stated there's a lot of unrest in Cubs camp because of this. I simply want [some] resolution ASAP.

by blackhawk24 on Mar 14, 2008 6:36 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I'm no Payton fan

but the one thing in his favor is that Lou would never mistake him for an everyday player to go beyond Pie's platoonmate.

Soriano must leadoff... to provide adequate protection for Big Z!

by DGU on Mar 14, 2008 7:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think so

I would like the Cubs to get Roberts, but that deal is insane. Both Gallagher and Veal is a dealbreaker IMO. I don't know enough about Ceda, but I wouldn't include him either. The Orioles may want whatever, but I think Gallagher alone is a steep price, that any others in the package would have to be lesser guys, like Cedeño, etc. Pitching is a premium, and you just don't give up your best putching prospects for a second baseman.

by Luis on Mar 14, 2008 7:02 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Ceda doesn't change the deal for me

Ceda is a potential major league closer who throws nasty heat. He's got a control problem, as everyone saw in Spring Training, but if he gets it under control, the comparisons to Lee Smith are not out of line.

But here's the thing. Our system is overrun with good, right-handed relief prospects. Kevin Hart, Billy Petrick, Alex Maestri, Rocky Roquet, Jeremy Papelbon--these are all right-handers with the potential to end up in our bullpen. And if not, relievers are one of the easiest things to pick up in the free agent market.

I'm a lot more concerned about giving up Gallagher (although I guess you've got to give up something) and Veal. Gallagher is a potential #3 starter, which doesn't sound like much until you realize Ted Lilly is a #3 starter. Those guys aren't easy to find or replace. I also think Gallagher has a very good chance of reaching that potential.

Veal is more of a boom or bust guy. He's a potential major league #2 starter, but he really took a step back last season and I'm starting to wonder if he'll make it. The one thing he's got going for him is a maturity and good attitude towards his struggles.

So if you'd trade Gallagher and Veal for Roberts, I don't see why you wouldn't trade Gallagher, Veal, Cedeno and Ceda for Roberts. Just don't incude Pie under any circumstances. I guess I'd do it. In the end, the 4 for 1 trade would probably be just Gallagher and Cendeno for Roberts.

It's a girl! Born 1-18-08. 2246 PST. 8lbs. 1 oz.

by Josh77 on Mar 14, 2008 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

jeremy

is left-handed. fwiw

by DartmouthCubsFan on Mar 14, 2008 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

but his brother is right handed and so he should be too, dammit!

Thanks for the catch. I simply forgot that Jeremy is the left-hander and Jonathan is the right hander.

Scratch Papelbon and write Mitch Atkins.

Still, the point stands. We've got a lot of right handed pitchers who could pitch in the bullpen. I didn't even include starters who could end up in the pen like Samardzija, Jake Renshaw, Chris Huseby, etc.

It's a girl! Born 1-18-08. 2246 PST. 8lbs. 1 oz.

by Josh77 on Mar 14, 2008 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 7:04 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

If that's all the Orioles want

The deal would've been done long before now.

They want more.

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 7:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Much

more.

I saw Ceda this spring and his delivery is garbage and like I said, reminds me of a young Novoa. I would include him in any deal.

Will he be the next Novoa or the next Lee Smith? He has the arm of both no doubt, but he's a "prospect". Like I said, I would include him in a deal for Roberts in a heartbeat. I came away far less impressed with Ceda than I should've.

He was bad.

Roberto Novoa bad.

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 7:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like the 6-2 swap...this is a championship move

Cubs move Ronnie Cedeno (a perennial utility infielder), Sean Gallagher (probably a good SP innings eater), Donnie Veal (prospect who can go either way), Ceda (prospect again remember the Farns), Marquis (salary dump) and Murton?

for two bona fides? A real lead off hitter who can slot into the spot and move Theriot/DeRosa platoon into a strength---while bringing a good veteran back up in the OF?

This is a championship MOVE!

What are the values of the above....even if they all turn out to be MLB players, the Cubs would start out the season with a set starting pitching who are veterans....set bullpen who are veterans....and a regular lineup that has youth (Soto, Pie and Theriot) new blood in the Fukudome and versatility with DeRosa and Payton....

do it McPhail....

Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."

by Ivy Walls on Mar 14, 2008 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

From Ken Rosenthal

"The Cubs' minor leaguers begin playing games on Friday, and the Orioles want time to see them before reviving the Roberts talks."

He also quotes a scout as saying that the Cubs will never let Pie get 300 AB if he's struggling, so he'll probably have to go elsewhere to become a starter. I disagree with that.

Free the upper deck!

by zambranofan on Mar 14, 2008 7:13 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

that's odd.....

Doesn't McPhail know alot about our farm system?

Can't wait for the Cubs in '08!!!

by fuzzycubfan on Mar 14, 2008 7:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

These aren't established players...

...prospects can go up or down in a short period of time, so its important to get the latest read on them.

If I were McPhail, I would do the samething.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Mar 14, 2008 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

obviously not

otherwise he would have made at least one memorable deal....

by petrie on Mar 14, 2008 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Veal...

He was a good prospect a year ago, but struggled, I believe with his control, and is really nothing special anymore.

by Rezze21 on Mar 14, 2008 7:15 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

These "prospects"

reported, will simply not cut it.

It's a joke to even begin a discussion about it.

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 7:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

seems enough to me.........

maybe too much. If you tthink these guys are garbage.........who do you think the O's are holding out for? Pie? Colvin? Ain't gonna happen IMO

by plenz on Mar 14, 2008 7:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

its a joke

that you are speaking in such absolutes.

Bill James Felix Pie 2008 Projection: .283/.333/.456 16 HR 21 SB

by kylejo on Mar 14, 2008 8:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here's the joke....it's on you

If you actually believe that the Orioles are willing to part with Roberts for>>>>Veal, Gallagher, Ceda and Cedeno.

You keep believing that when you stir your fruit loops.

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 8:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If one subscribes............

..........to the theory that all this "waiting" has worked to reduce Roberts' value, then I'm not so sure this exchange is out of line.

by tville on Mar 14, 2008 8:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's not even close

and any deal with the Orioles won't start without Gallagher, Colvin, Patterson, Ceda.

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 8:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

you are speaking

as if you have insider information, that no one else is privy to. it just makes you look elitist. if you have a link to back up this speculation of where the trade would begin with, other than the speculation of writers, please share it with us so that we may be as well-informed as you.

Bill James Felix Pie 2008 Projection: .283/.333/.456 16 HR 21 SB

by kylejo on Mar 14, 2008 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Robert's value is established...

...and unless he comes up lame, it will not change.

What you have here, is a very cautious organization, with a very delibrate guy (McPhail) making the judgement on what they can settle for.
As I mentioned above, when you are dealing with prospects, you want to get the latest read from your top scouts, on what their latest evaluations would be.

I keep hearing from my source (and no I can't say who it is, but they are in a good position to have solid information) that the Cubs want Roberts badly. In his opinion, the only thing that prevents this deal is if the O's final asking price is out of hand. He doesn't expect that, because it would not make a lot of sense for the O's to hang on to Roberts with their rebuilding process well underway.

This could go until the end of ST, but the Cubs would like to get it done in time go give Roberts some time with his new mates in ST. I guess we'll see what happens.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Mar 14, 2008 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Both wrong. Here's a joke:

A man wakes up one morning with the filthiest hangover and no recollection of the night before. Slowly opening his eyes, he sees a bottle of aspirin and a glass of water on the bedside table.
He looks around the room to find his clothes are on the dresser, neatly folded, with a clean shirt on top. The bedroom is immaculate. On the bedside table is a note, which says, 'Darling, your breakfast is in the kitchen. I love you.'
Downstairs, he finds his favorite cereal, rashers, eggs, a tomato and hot tea laid out waiting for him, along with the morning paper - and his 15-year-old son, who is finishing his own breakfast.
'Tell me, son,' he asks, 'what happened last night?'
'Well, says the boy, 'you came home so blind drunk you didn't even know your own name. You nearly broke the door down, then you were sick in the hallway, then you knocked the furniture over and when Mum tried to calm you down, you thought she was the police, so you gave her a black eye.'
'Christ!' says the man. 'Then how come my clothes are all folded, the house is tidy and my breakfast is ready?'
'When Mum dragged you into the bedroom and tried to get your trousers off to put you into bed, you shouted at her, 'Get your filthy hands off me, you strumpet, I'm married!''

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Mar 14, 2008 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's awesome gary

I wish I could begin to share with you the night I had had last night.

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 8:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

LOL!

Well played.

"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Mar 14, 2008 8:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It involved

women dressed up like Brian Roberts.

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mmmmm......rashers

Why does everybody stand up and sing "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" when they're already there? ~Larry Anderson

by JohnM on Mar 14, 2008 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wow

I really can't see how we could offer more then this. Ceda, Gallagher and Veal are our 4th,5th and 6th best prospects, and our three best pitching prospects. I agree that Gallagher is probably the only one who is a sure fire major leaguer, but he also has the lowest ceiling out of the group. Veal just a year ago was one of the top 50 prospects in baseball, with ace type stuff. He had a poor year last season, but his stuff and potential is still there. Ceda I'm not quite as high on but I have heard alot of good things about him and some were comparing his arm to Zambrano's. So this offer isn't Gallagher and a bunch of scrubs.(MacPhail still likes Cedeno upside as well) Ceda is probably every bit of the prospect that Colvin is right now. But I dunno who else we could possibly add in a deal for Roberts.

Vitters can't be offically traded yet, and I doubt the Cubs would trade him for a player like Roberts so soon. Soto is our starting catcher so he isn't going to be dealt. It's already been confirmed that Pie isn't gonna be traded for Roberts and I don't blame the Cubs for not wanting to trade him after all the work they put in with him over the last year or so. The Cubs also don't wanna trade Colvin right now, because they only had him one fullseason, and want to see more of him before their willing to trade him or not. So I can't see a possible way that the Cubs could really offer more or it costing the Cubs more then this. Actually most Cubs fans are freaking out about this offer on other boards and calling for Hendry's head if they do this deal. I know there probably overvaluing some of these prospects but it's a pretty high price to pay. But of course this is just another rumor, and no reason to get worked up about. If or when a trade actually happens then we can worry about if it was a good trade or a bad trade.

by cubsfan25 on Mar 14, 2008 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dude

Paragraphs.

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Paragraphs

and ritalin.

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Write something

interesting please, and stop complaining.

by cubsfan25 on Mar 14, 2008 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

thoughtful points

I agree with you that this package seems about right. I wonder how much Ceda's peformance in camp affected the Cubs willingness to include him.

Personally, I don't care how good a relief pitcher prospect seems - he's still just a relief pitcher and I'll trade him for an everyday player every day.

Soriano must leadoff... to provide adequate protection for Big Z!

by DGU on Mar 14, 2008 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yes, prospects

Lemonpie, prospects absolutely will cut it. Prospects, especially pitching prospects have tremendous value these days. Sorry but your generalization here towards the value of prospects is way off.

I'd like Roberts but if the Cubs have to give up Gallagher, Veal and Marshall.... no thanks. I think they could shop those prospects to other teams and do much better.

DmL

by dmlichte on Mar 14, 2008 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ok DML

I understand where you're coming from, but all i'm trying to say is, if this deal ever goes down, it's going to take more than those prospects.

My opinion is, that the unless the deal involves Pie, I would do it.

That's how I feel about the Cubs prospects,

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well...

... I guess I'm saying that you're wrong. You seem to be undervaluing prospects as a whole as well as Gallagher, Marshall and Veal. Look at who MacPhail got for Miguel Tejada... not much. Johan Santana is arguably the best starting pitcher in baseball and the Twins did not land a treasure trove of prospects. Prospects right now are very highly valued, maybe over valued. So when you take someone like Sean Marshall, who may have stamina issues, but has had two stints in the majors as a lefty starter and has a sub 4 ERA, he has a good amount of value. When you take Veal, Gallagher, and Ceda and see their overall MLB rankings, you need to understand their value, whether or not they've done much in the majors.

Prospects have value and unless you're talking about the Tampa Bay Rays, teams are willing to trade for them.

DmL

by dmlichte on Mar 14, 2008 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Marshall

Let me correct that his 2006 season ended with an era above 3.

DmL

by dmlichte on Mar 14, 2008 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think you're overvaluing

Gallagher, Cedeno, Ceda and Marshall. All I'm saying is, that this won't be enough to get Roberts.

And I would trade these "prospects" for Roberts in a heartbeat.

So would the Cubs.

THat's my point.

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

This all depends on how...

...the O's value these players, not the Cubs. IMO, this is part of the reason this deal has been strung out for so long, because the O's may have different internal opinions on real value here.

I guess people should look at it like this; if the Cubs had Brian Roberts, would they be excited to be getting the above mentioned players in return? I think that is what the O's are trying to figure out, and is why they want to take in some of the minor league action to feel more comfortable with a decision.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Mar 14, 2008 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Orioles are rebuilding

Everyone knows that. and to the Orioles credit, they know they're dealing with an overzealous GM in Hendry. I personally believe Hendry is all but saying everyone in this system is yours, with the exception of Pie.

and I think the Oriole scouts are still sorting through the Cubs system and trying to find those "worthy" prospects for Roberts.

Let's face it, these prospects aren't as great as Cubbie fans think, or Roberts would be a Cub. Again, Just My Opinion.

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think I agree

however I do not think Pie is the only untouchable. I believe that there are other players that Hendry will not give up on. I think he has seen patience pay off in the recent past (ie. Rich Hill) and he understands that sometimes not making the move, works out for the best. Hendry is smarter than you are giving him credit for.

MMMMM...Nutrisystem!

by Kinky Reggae on Mar 14, 2008 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with you...

...for anyone to come to a conclusion as to what the O's would take in return for Roberts, is simply jumping the gun. If they knew what they wanted, Roberts would already be a Cub, or the deal would be completely dead. Common sense would tell us neither of those two is true, so it must be that the O's are still in the process of evaluating the Cubs prospects.

In the end, this deal will happen, simply because it is in the best interests of both clubs to meet in the middle and get the thing done.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Mar 14, 2008 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sun Times

This was in the Sun Times written by Gordon Wittenmeyer. My dog has more credibility.

If you read this please include my friend Heather and my friend's mom Karen in your prayers. If you want to hear more email me.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Mar 14, 2008 7:50 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

it's also in the Batimore paper

by cubswin on Mar 14, 2008 8:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agree

From what I have read from in the past, I can't recall what he has written that actually became truth.
I like Roberts, he would be a welcome addition, however he is not Chase Utley.
I do not mind, Marshall, Cedeno, and Gallagher in the package. I would not give into Ceda. Someone called him Nova, is he that bad? Ceda just turned 21, he probably has had bad mechanics since he was 13. I just don't think you give up on a guy who has been part of the Cubs for a year and a half. Hey I have never saw him throw, but guys throwing 98 don't come around often. My opinion.
I guess what it comes down to, I am personally worn out on this Roberts BS

by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Mar 14, 2008 8:01 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Ceda is NOT worth it...

Cubs, this deal better not suck.

I'll forgive you if you win the World Series.

An open invitation to visit Des Moines and watch the Iowa Cubs...

by IowaCubs- on Mar 14, 2008 8:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Do it in a second...

and if I'm Baltimore, I laugh all the way to the bank. And for the Cubs, you get to keep Marshall, and likely replace a prospect or two by dealing off Matt Murton.

by Damen Jackson on Mar 14, 2008 8:13 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

this trade

favors the o's but we need roberts. were a win now or never team. we cant worry about the future at this point. were sooooooo close. we made it to the playoffs last year and upgraded our outfield tremendously and have gotten rid of alot of junk players. roberts is exactly what we need. derosa is good enough to be the starter but he's gonna have to fill in for aram and others. i feel real good about our day to day chances when one of our main guys needs a day off two and derosa's filling in. roberts has speed and alot of it. dlee,fuku,theriot,roberts, pie, and soriano are all big time speedsters. that will drive a pitcher nutz. hard to put together a game plan when your lineup has that much speed and power.

GO CUBS GO!!!!!

by cubsluver22 on Mar 14, 2008 9:00 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

The fact remains

THE CUBS NEVER PRODUCE EVERYDAY TALENT THAT MAKES THE MAJORS.

So who cares about the farm----when all the Cubs have been doing is trading and signing free agents.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Mar 14, 2008 9:02 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

...and sometimes, just sometimes

a farm system is used to trade for proven players.

I know the following two examples were more of salary dumps than true rebuilding like the O's but it has to be repeated:

Jimbo turned Hee Seop Choi into Derrek Lee and Bobby Hill + scraps into Aramis Ramirez.

by blackhawk24 on Mar 14, 2008 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly

Everyone knows that the Cubs can't produce everyday position players, but they've (JIm Hendry) has done alright getting something back in return for those overhyped prospects.

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What about Soto?

"Prince Fielder Dies Of Inside-The-Park Homerun" - The Onion

by DTJchris on Mar 14, 2008 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let's see if after a whole season

he lives up to all the hype; I for one sure hope he does.

by blackhawk24 on Mar 15, 2008 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not pitchers

The Cubs have probably produced more pitching talent then any team over the last 10 years. Wood, Prior, Lohse, Willis, Zambrano, Hill, Mitre, Marshall, Cruz, Farnsworth, Pinto, Nolasco and others. The Cubs haven't had a good postion player in a long time, but pitching wise we been good. Thats the scary part about trading our three best pitching prospects in this trade.

by cubsfan25 on Mar 14, 2008 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

lol

Is this post a joke?

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Resident Internet tough guy here at BCB

lemon20pie, everybody! Let's give him a round of applause.

Oh that lemon, it doesn't matter what you say, he'll always come back at you like it's 2:00AM on a Saturday night, he's tanked, and you just insulted his mother.

by IllinoisCubs on Mar 14, 2008 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

lol

Who are you again? You have what to say?

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Do you really think I'm a tough guy?

I don't consider myself a tough guy and if you ask anyone here, they will agree. I for the most part have an opinion but rarely make it personal, like you just did.

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I love baseball---cant we all just get along

img src="http://thelegendaryoxbaker.com/images/03.jpg">

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Mar 14, 2008 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

SONOFA

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Mar 14, 2008 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I oughta

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who's that?

The Brooklyn Brawler?

"Oh well, there's always next year!!!" Every Cub fan

by McRipper on Mar 14, 2008 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Blasphemer!!!

That's Dick the Bruiser! I remember many a Sunday morning as a kid watching a very fuzzy channel 44 (I think). The Lone Ranger, the Cisco Kid (no, not the CSCO Cisco), then Dick the Bruiser, Baron von Raschke, Moose Cholak, Bobo Brazil, etc.

by davidalanu on Mar 14, 2008 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh of course not

no one thinks they are an Internet tough guy. Everyone thinks their posts are clever, witty, funny, informative, convincing, and loved by all.

No one thinks of themselves as the mean curmudgeon jerk that causes people to avoid a post once they start posting in the thread.

I mean, why would you continue to post in the latter fashion unless you were just some troll?

You though, lemon, you know. You just know you are the class of Bleed Cubbie Blue. You never make it personal.

"If you actually believe that the Orioles are willing to part with Roberts for>>>>Veal, Gallagher, Ceda and Cedeno.

You keep believing that when you stir your fruit loops."

"Paragraphs

and ritalin."

"lol

Is this post a joke?"

You keep it classy.

by IllinoisCubs on Mar 14, 2008 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's good stuff

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He said curmudgeon...

I love it!!! It's a tautology...yet so a propos.

by Damen Jackson on Mar 14, 2008 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I had a band one time

called the "Mean Curmudgeons".

Seriously.

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

and we sucked bad

Which would explain why I'm such a internet tough guy curmudgeon

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You reply to yourself far too often.

by Kornchex on Mar 14, 2008 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

its his best audience

n/t

by DartmouthCubsFan on Mar 14, 2008 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Welcome to BCB

How are you doing.

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Care to contribute something worthy

unlike the usual babble of dartmouth?

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oops

I responded to myself again,,,,

and again

and again.

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

you're not endearing yourself to a whole lot

of folks here, Pie; not that you have to do so. But a real way to get anyone off your back is to substantiate your position(s) by sound arguments.

by blackhawk24 on Mar 14, 2008 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

LOL

and what sound arguments might you be referring to?

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I always thought vinegar...........

.........filled a douche bag, but it must really be lemon pie.

by tville on Mar 14, 2008 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

LOL

I like that!!

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

How many more usernames you got TBag?

bring 'em all out. I'm gonna be here for another 2 hours before I watch the Cubs today.

I'm having fun with this.

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

cringing, when I hear liberals say they like Obama

but can't name one single accomplishment.

Tell these guys why you think the Cubs' offerings are not enough based on their projections, in your opinion.

Saying Pie, Colvin must be included is an obvious solution from the O's side but the Cubs would be overpaying.

I guess all I see is a lot of back-and-forth ripping w/o getting to the point(s).

by blackhawk24 on Mar 14, 2008 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let's not bring politic's into this

When did I say the CUbs should include Pie and COlvin again????

Jeesus, don't want to bring politic's into this but you must be a republican.

Quote me, please.

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

while you wait

please quote orioles officials where they have laid out what it will take to get roberts. or some other reason that leads you to believe this offering by the cubs isnt even "close" to what roberts will cost, as you say.

Bill James Felix Pie 2008 Projection: .283/.333/.456 16 HR 21 SB

by kylejo on Mar 14, 2008 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who me???

YOu must've smoked some hardtime crack there in the suburbs, because I've been saying that these proposed rumors aren't even remotely close, to what the Orioles want.

Without calling you too many names, thank you.

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

ha what?

first off i live downtown.

secondly, i know obviously that you think this is not what the orioles want. i hate to spell it out like a second grade teacher but,

WHY DO YOU THINK THIS IS NOT WHAT THE ORIOLES WANT, PLEASE BACK UP YOUR CONJECTURE WITH FACT.

thank you.

Bill James Felix Pie 2008 Projection: .283/.333/.456 16 HR 21 SB

by kylejo on Mar 14, 2008 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

CONJECTURE????????

In second grade? Who are you Doogie Howser??

MMMMM...Nutrisystem!

by Kinky Reggae on Mar 14, 2008 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fact?

You are smoking crack aren't you. This is a blog. A place to inject opinions. I have injected mine based on my opinion. If you don't like that, go smoke some more crack.

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The problem here is...

...people smoke too much crack.

by Flatley on Mar 14, 2008 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

the problem is

you are claiming that anyone who does not agree with your opinion is out of their mind. now if you had a something to back up your opinion then it might be more credible.

otherwise you just look like a condescending troll.

Bill James Felix Pie 2008 Projection: .283/.333/.456 16 HR 21 SB

by kylejo on Mar 14, 2008 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

LSA!

n/t

by blackhawk24 on Mar 14, 2008 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like Obama...

MMMMM...Nutrisystem!

by Kinky Reggae on Mar 14, 2008 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like anyone but George W.

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hahahaha...

Priceless. In all serious though, I think you've made your position clear Lemon.

by Damen Jackson on Mar 14, 2008 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Aren't you the same guy......

Who owns a business (in the Arizona are I believe) that offered some food and help for a guy whio got ripped off some how and didn't have money for groceries?

If so, I wouldn't call you a tough guy, more of a stand up guy!

Can't wait for the Cubs in '08!!!

by fuzzycubfan on Mar 14, 2008 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

But they're prospects, hence the name

Not all of them work out and if these guys do (some of them) they're under control of the O's for at least a couple seasons.

I growned when Pinto and Nolasco were given up for Pierre (didn't think Mitre was all that anyway). Pierre is gone and neither of these 2 guys are lighting it up [yet], though Nolasco had a decent call-up in '06.

On the flip side who would have known that D-train while with Boise, short season A ball, would have been what he developed into when Lynch traded him as p/o the Clement/Alfonseca deal.

I take a line (OK, ripoff yet another) from one of my top 10 movies of all time, "...sometimes you just gotta say, 'what the fuck', make your move". Jimbo has to say that.

by blackhawk24 on Mar 14, 2008 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I forgot

Jon Garland

by cubsfan25 on Mar 14, 2008 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who needs to produce players when you can buy them

Most teams are in the competitive market where they must win now and can't afford to wait for guys to develop.

Can't wait for the Cubs in '08!!!

by fuzzycubfan on Mar 14, 2008 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well said fuzzy

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

But the Orioles appear to be heading

down Prospect Road. It seems as though they're looking to tear it apart and start over. AA and AAA prospects, or players with limited ML experience are probably exactly what they're looking for.

by davidalanu on Mar 14, 2008 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You are talking about position players

The Cubs have been very good in terms of their development of pitching talent.

Carlos Zambrano
Rich Hill
Carlos Marmol
Michael Wuertz

The are four guys who I'm sure any team would want in their pitching staff. Dontrelle Willis and Pinto were Cubs farmhands. And of course, injuries aside, Wood and Prior.

I'd be careful when giving up pitching prospects from this club. A little while ago people were eager to give up Rich Hill and Carlos Marmol for pretty much little value in return

by Luis on Mar 14, 2008 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have to agree in that

I see the Cubs giving up something to get a solid addition to this team now...

Later they can sell off quality players to re-build. a la the O's this offseason. Right now, this is a nice upgrade and to gove up what appears to be a lot of prospects is what has to happen. It is widely known that MacPhail is trying to build a very deep farm system for the future so this is what it will take...

Do It.

MMMMM...Nutrisystem!

by Kinky Reggae on Mar 14, 2008 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The reason I think this trade

is reasonable is that it makes me nervous to do it. We'd be giving up 3 high-upside arms in the deal (plus Cedeno). Maybe Veal will never regain his form, maybe Ceda will flame out, and maybe Gallagher will never be more than a 5th starter. But the two starters have #2-3 potential, Ceda has dominant closer potential, and if Cedeno ever decides to play in the majors like he does in the minors, he could be valuable as well.

There are no guarantees with these guys, but there never are with trades for prospects.

DEJESUS!!!

by tomas21 on Mar 14, 2008 9:21 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

They're called prospects

THEY COULD BE THE NEXT KYLE FARNSWORTH OR THE NEXT SAM FULD.

I'm tired of beating my head against the wall.

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What?

Are you talking to me? Whats the joke about the Cubs having produced quality pitchers in the last ten years? It's a fact, think of a team who has as many pitchers come through their system from 98-08?

by cubsfan25 on Mar 14, 2008 9:22 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I won't delete this.

All I will say is that from what I hear from "Deep Goat", this "proposal" is nonsense. This deal is NOT happening.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 14, 2008 9:41 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Total nonsense

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

AL

Will you introduce me to Deep Goat? If not, how about a few clues? 20 questions?

Question 1---Does he frequent the bleachers?

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Mar 14, 2008 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You actually asked four questions.

The answer to the first three is "no".

The answer to "Question 1" is, "No comment."

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 14, 2008 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ha

When Im in the bleachers BEWARE I will be watching you.

Ha, DAMN---I really am curious

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Mar 14, 2008 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

LMAO

You'll still never know.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 14, 2008 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Al is deep goat

by carolinacub on Mar 14, 2008 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nope.

n/t

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 14, 2008 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"No comment"..........

........could imply Al has already introduced this person to some people, but not under the guise of "Deep Goat"???

Hmmm...........

by tville on Mar 14, 2008 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

plus, you know...

we don't need it. 2B is not a hole. SS is a hole. Roberts doesn't play shortstop. Why throw money at a problem that doesn't exist...

Worst to First in 2007, brought to you by Lou, Sori, A-Ram and D-Lee.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 14, 2008 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Roberts used to play SS

and was moved off when Tejada was acquired. I don't know if he still can play it, but there have been rumblings that the Cubs might try and find out. (Unfortunately, I can't find the links for those articles, but I read it in more than one.)

Soriano must leadoff... to provide adequate protection for Big Z!

by DGU on Mar 14, 2008 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't rule that possibility out...

...because quite frankly, upgrading SS and leaving DeRosa at 2nd base, simply makes the lineup stronger.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Mar 14, 2008 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah -

Given what we saw happen last year, I don't see DeRosa sitting on the bench long unless Theriot hits for an OBP over .350. It would be different if Theriot was a super glove-man, but he's not. All Roberts (or DeRosa) would have to do is approximate Theriot's defense and it would happen - just like it happened last year to Izturis.

Even then, I think DeRosa gets a lot more playing time than many are expecting.

Soriano must leadoff... to provide adequate protection for Big Z!

by DGU on Mar 14, 2008 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not really...

He was never really a SS in Baltimore. He was a utility infieder and filled in at short for a spell when Bordick got injured, but as far as I remember, the Orioles never considered putting him in as an everyday SS. Tejada replaced Devi Cruz at SS.

by BirdFanInPhilly on Mar 15, 2008 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

this is just another rumor, we have heard about 15 of them since December. Thats why people shouldn't get worked up over rumored offers. If or when a deal does get done then people can debate if we gave up too much, or got a good deal. I dunno if I agree that a deal isn't getting done though. Piniella and others gave given too many hints recently for talks to be dead IMO.

by cubsfan25 on Mar 14, 2008 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Anonymity

I am ok with this "source" remaining anonymous.

I would like to know, though, what qualifies this person as being a "source"?

Inquiring minds wanna know...

Jacque Jones is gone and I doubt Ivan DeJesus would mind this!

by initram on Mar 14, 2008 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If I told you I'd have to kill you.

n/t

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 14, 2008 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're Not "Deep Goat", Are You?

Just checking...

Jacque Jones is gone and I doubt Ivan DeJesus would mind this!

by initram on Mar 14, 2008 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That question I can answer.

No, I am not "Deep Goat".

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 14, 2008 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

is it BlueMike?

n/t

by DartmouthCubsFan on Mar 14, 2008 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

LMAO

I think I can answer that one, too. No, it is not BlueMike.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 14, 2008 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If I might add a little more...

talk about talking out both side of your mouth. Pricleess gems from Heymans latest piece:

"The latest names that may go to Baltimore include pitcher Sean Gallagher, shortstop Ronny Cedeno and pitching prospect Donnie Veal. Outfielder Jay Payton may come back to Chicago, along with Roberts. But if Payton does, the Cubs might want to offset the dollars by sending the Orioles veteran pitcher Jason Marquis, who's won more games than Barry Zito over the past few years but makes $6 million a year (a tad more than Payton) and has frustrated the Cubs with his inconsistency."

and...wait for it:

"One Orioles-connected person said, "The Cubs don't appear to have too much,'' suggesting a deal still was no certainty, but most folks around baseball still think there's probably going to be a trade involving Roberts at some point. Even if there isn't one, there is already a lot to love about these Cubs."

by Damen Jackson on Mar 14, 2008 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I GOT IT

Its the woman who was sitting on the blanket with you.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Mar 14, 2008 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nope.

n/t

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 14, 2008 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

update

no, no, no, perhaps, no, no, no

by blackhawk24 on Mar 14, 2008 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well...

...that's 2 down.

Only another 6.5 billion to go.

Jacque Jones is gone and I doubt Ivan DeJesus would mind this!

by initram on Mar 14, 2008 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

For those keeping score at home...

that's a no, no, no, perhaps, no, no

by blackhawk24 on Mar 14, 2008 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Alright, it's a deal!

by John Q Freejazz on Mar 14, 2008 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Any details?

Does "Deep Goat" think this deal won't happen because the Cubs wouldn't be giving up this much, because the Orioles are asking for more, or because these are not the players that have been discussed?

by Luis on Mar 14, 2008 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

From what I understand...

... it's kind of a combination of all three things you just mentioned.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 14, 2008 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Unless Deep Goat is Jim Hendry

then I don't think his word is worth too much. I think "the Goat" is just a speculator, like the rest of us.

Everyone knows talks are ongoing, but I don't think Jim would talk in great detail with many people until a deal is done.

All we are saying...is give Pie a chance.

by Hugest Canadian Cubs Fan on Mar 14, 2008 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Al

How close does your goat friend say this has ever been to happening?

If you read this please include my friend Heather and my friend's mom Karen in your prayers. If you want to hear more email me.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Mar 14, 2008 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I Recall Having A Conversation About 6 Weeks...

... ago regarding the rating scale for prospects - number and a letter.

What are the ratings for Gallagher, Veal and Ceda?

I thought Gallagher had a #3/#4 ceiling, and that he could now be a #5.

I thought I read that Veal had #1/#2 potential, but he was likely a few years from that.

I know Ceda is a big guy, and can throw 99, but his control has a lot left to be desired.

Case in point - if the numbers are high (say 8,9) but the letter is low (say D) or if the number is lower (say 6,7), isn't it worth it? Doesn't it come down to probabilities/statistics?

Jacque Jones is gone and I doubt Ivan DeJesus would mind this!

by initram on Mar 14, 2008 9:48 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

From what I've read

(which is not exhaustive), Veal has the highest ceiling, but has problems with command and control. If he gets that worked out he's not necessarily far away, but who knows how long it will take to get it worked out or if he ever will. Veal could very easily become Arthur Rhodes.

Gallagher's ceiling is generally considered to be limited, but you're right - you could probably get decent results out of him now in the NL Central. He's not the type of pitcher I'd throw into the AL East, though.

Ceda has a ton of potential as a reliever, but not as a starter and is a bit aways away.

In my view, a team like the Cubs can buy low-ceiling guys as free agents fairly easily. It's the high ceiling prospects that want to keep. So, I'd rather not give up Veal, but I don't blink giving up Ceda or Gallagher.

Soriano must leadoff... to provide adequate protection for Big Z!

by DGU on Mar 14, 2008 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I want this trade to happen

Whether you think these prospects will be great or not, at this point, thats all they are, prospects. After last year, its obvious that we are one of the better teams in the NL, so why not do what you can to improve the team as much as possible to get us over the hump. I think a prototypical leadoff hitter will do that. Why save for 5 years down the road when we are so close to winning now.

PS Even if, no when we get roberts, I think batting soriano second is the height of stupidity. Theriot is great in the two hole with his ability to bunt, push the ball, and not strike out. The lineup will go roberts, theriot, soriano, lee, ramirez, fukudome, soto, pie. Im dont think you can find a better one in the NL

Also, I would say the Cubs are below average at producing position players and above average at producing pitchers. Not horrible or great at either.

by JJDiesel21 on Mar 14, 2008 9:50 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Geting Roberts...

... does not get us to the promised land. I do believe, though, that it gets us closer.

I've made my points before, so I don't feel the need to re-iterate.

What has changed since the week of the General Managers meetings in December for me is the following (confirmed by Piniella): we need to balance the lineup.

Your proposed lineup is close to what I would do... namely that Theriot is higher in the order where I originally had him. I would:

(1) Keep Pie and Theriot away from eachother in the lineup
(2) Break up Soriano-Ramirez-Lee
(3) Utilize the three-lefties (or switch hitter) to balance the lineup.
(4) Not going to the extent of baseballmusing's thought of batting the pitcher 8th.

With this, I had Soriano leading off. Starting with a righty makes it easier to use your lefties.
Roberts and Fukudome fit nicely batting 2/5, respectively. I had a problem, though, with keeping Pie and Theriot broken up.

Then, I went to Theriot batting second, with Roberts first. The problem then becomes finding a spot for Fukudome (I would not bat him 4th) and Soriano. Still, I think that three righties in a row here is not avoidable, and ok.

So, I'd go with: Roberts, Theriot, Lee, Ramirez, Fukudome, Soriano, Soto, Pie.

Jacque Jones is gone and I doubt Ivan DeJesus would mind this!

by initram on Mar 14, 2008 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

My money is on this lineup:

Roberts
Soriano
Lee
Ramirez
Fukudome
Soto
Theriot
Pie
Pitcher

by Luis on Mar 14, 2008 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If Your Name Was Jose...

... "No Way" would be more palatable...

;-)

Jacque Jones is gone and I doubt Ivan DeJesus would mind this!

by initram on Mar 14, 2008 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Time shall tell, but

I don't know why wise it is to give Theriot, the Cubs worst hitter, more at bats than Soriano. If Roberts is acquired I just don't see any rationale in putting him at the top of the order.

by Luis on Mar 14, 2008 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I Roberts is acquired...

...Theriot will end up back towards the bottom of the order where he really should be. Also, there is very little chance Soriano racks up too many games in the 2-hole as well.

This will all shake out in the next 2-3 weeks, and I wouldn't take too seriously what Piniella does with the lineup in that time period.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Mar 14, 2008 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not Quite

Ive gotta say, I think soriano belongs anywhere but the 2 hole. Ive never even seen him bunt and he strikes out way to much. Ideally a #2 hitter should be really good at getting the leadoff hitter into scoring position for your top rbi/power guys. Despite a low batting average, theriot can do this. He makes productive outs. DeRosa can do the same and is also capable of playing short

by JJDiesel21 on Mar 14, 2008 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Very, very nice...

he gets us closer, notably closer (those to disagree think the entire 25-man roster not just a given 1-8 lineup).

One stud starter (who happened go to the Emerald City) in combo with the big fish in this trade would have made the Cubs NL favorites and competitive with AL powerhouses.

by blackhawk24 on Mar 14, 2008 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

There's Always...

...7/31/2008.

What may be prohibitive is the $20M in salary we go up in 2009 with existing contracts. Shed Marquis, and 15% of those committed dollars is shed...

Not to mention, Wood, Eyre and Howry contracts expire.

Jacque Jones is gone and I doubt Ivan DeJesus would mind this!

by initram on Mar 14, 2008 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Stop the INSANITY!

I'm all for the trade. Roberts is a top notch second baseman and leadoff hitter. I love Derosa so it's nothing personnel. I wish this would hurry up and get done, but WTF?

Do we need to hand over the keys to Iowa and Daytona?

by Grace17 on Mar 14, 2008 9:54 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

"it's nothing personnel."

Good one. I think.

"Confidence is what you have before you understand the problem." Woody Allen

by BlueSox on Mar 14, 2008 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Viewpoint

So the latest and greatest has Sean Gallagher, Donald Veal, Jose Ceda and Ronny Cedeno being shipped to Baltimore for Brian Roberts and Jay Payton...

I'm suspicious of this deal. Gallagher is a promising starting pitching prospect. However, Veal's stock has signficantly downturned. Ceda is an intriguing prospect but it's too soon to tell whether he is a flash in the pan or the real thing. His weight and control are both issues in my book. Cedeno? At this stage I can't believe he has much value. The guy has failed on multiple ocassions and is dumber than a hockey puck when it comes to baseball IQ.

Overall assessment? I think Baltimore would want to do better than this.

by MDBNIU on Mar 14, 2008 11:44 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

No kidding

Total nonsense, this rumored deal is.

Lemon20Pie's 2008 PECOTA for Rich Hill: 204 IP 30 HR 75 BB 180 SO 1.35 WHIP 4.25 ERA

by lemon20pie on Mar 14, 2008 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

There are more than 100 posts here.

That one sums everything up in one sentence. Thank you.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 14, 2008 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yoda

Is that you?

DEJESUS!!!

by tomas21 on Mar 14, 2008 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

THIS MUST END!

Here's an idea...

Colvin/Pie/Veal/Gallagher/Marshall/Murton/Ceda/Patterson/Soto

for

Roberts and Cal Ripken Jr. (circa 1991)

An open invitation to visit Des Moines and watch the Iowa Cubs...

by IowaCubs- on Mar 14, 2008 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like it...

For the most part. I look at it as we dont need Veal b/c we have enough lefties with Lilly, Hill and Marshall...so hes expendable. Ceda could be good, but relievers who do one thing and one thing only, throw hard sliders, arent that hard to come by anyway....Isnt Ascanio supposed to be just as good as Ceda, that seemed like a huge score in the Ohman deal.

So its essentially Gallagher and Cedeno for Roberts.

If they can do this w/o Pie or Colvin, go for it.

Toby Flenderson represents all that is wrong with the paper business.

by bren on Mar 14, 2008 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

tough call

cubs propects never pan out so its hard to expect much. But come on not all 3 pitchers are going to become great. obviously cedeno sucks and will never amount to anything in the world.

Our bullpen is stacked as is, so Ceda is not all that important.

Veal , Gally, Ceda, even if just one of them pans out to be preety good the cubs still got a decent deal. So i dont mind this trade that much, altohough i would like sherill in the deal.

by Glacier on Mar 14, 2008 11:52 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Terrible deal.

We might as well give the Orioles the naming rights to Wrigley while we're at it!

by Snake Plissken on Mar 14, 2008 11:53 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I can't wrap my head around this topic anymore.

Whenever I try, this is all I see:

And this thread has been amusing to read but, much like the Roberts trade itself, it goes in circles so many times that it winds up devouring itself.

Ladies and gentlemen, your 2008 Chicago Cubs starting outfield: Soriano-Pie-Fukudome. Let it be.

by dat cubfan daver on Mar 14, 2008 12:10 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Loud, sustained applause!

Great image, too.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 14, 2008 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks!

Ladies and gentlemen, your 2008 Chicago Cubs starting outfield: Soriano-Pie-Fukudome. Let it be.

by dat cubfan daver on Mar 14, 2008 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

and exactly what that TV will look like

come 2/18/09.

But for this diary with over 100 posts, most of it I like.

by blackhawk24 on Mar 14, 2008 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If we do this

I think we should try Dero at short. Our defense is already going to be one of the best in the league and much improved sine last year so why not have a week defender but good offense. Given short stop is one, if not the most important defensive position.

But come on look at our infield defense would be with lee, ramirez, roberts, and soto behind the plate. and then our outfield defense is already sick with pie, soriano, fukudome.

I also think derosa played shortstop in the minors. I may be wrong though. its worth a shot though

by Glacier on Mar 14, 2008 12:11 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Personally, I'd be willing

to try DeRo at SS, but Lou never talks like that is an option. He even said recently something along the lines of "We need someone besides Theriot and Cedeno that can play SS." Sorry, I can't remember where he said it or where I read it.

Soriano must leadoff... to provide adequate protection for Big Z!

by DGU on Mar 14, 2008 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

DeRo or Roberts

could reasonably equate Theriot's defense at short. Trading for Roberts and keeping Theriot in the starting lineup would be dumb. If Roberts is acquired it stands to reason that DeRo and Roberts should start because of their superior offense and as good or possibly even better defense. Let Theriot come off the bench and be a supersub. He can pinch hit, pinch run, play three infield positions and even outfield in an emergency. DeRo can do all those things as well, and better, which is the reason why he should be getting more playing time than Theriot.

My prediction is that if the Roberts trade (in whatever form "Deep Goat" and lemonpie find acceptable) happens DeRo and Roberts will start, most likely with DeRo at short, and the lineup will look something like this:

Roberts
Soriano
Fukudome
DLee
ARam
DeRo
Soto
Pie

Personally I'd like to see Soriano lower, 5th would be ideal but apparently they'll want someone to "protect" him ("protection" is a myth, more or less) and DeRo isn't anyones idea of "protection".

There, I'm finished. I'll go get my flame suit.

I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey

by pageian on Mar 14, 2008 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Every time I finally cave and read another

Roberts thread, I'm left thinking of the favorite all-purpose phrase of my very delicate and lady like grandmother: "S--t, or get off the pot."

by N Oakley on Mar 14, 2008 3:50 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Just to repeat...

... something I posted in the game recap:

What appeared in the Sun-Times this morning, which started this whole thread, is 100% nonsense. Not happening.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 14, 2008 6:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

FWIW, It Ain't Dead Just Yet...

... the Cubs have started talks up again with the Rangers for Byrd, offering Murton.

The Rangers countered with wanting young pitching.

Hendry likely said, "Well, we'll get back in touch with you when we find out what young arms are left after we deal with the O's for Roberts"...

:-)

Jacque Jones is gone and I doubt Ivan DeJesus would mind this!

by initram on Mar 14, 2008 7:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Is it just me?

obviously Roberts is a good player, and people here have made great arguments for and against this seeming never ending trade, but there is something about him, about the way he plays and how much he enjoys it, that he just seems like he should be a Cub?

Thats part of the reason Id like to see this happen, it just seems like a natural fit.

I guess I dont have much of a point, but its just why I would like to see this trade so badly despite the fact that it isnt entirely necessary.

Toby Flenderson represents all that is wrong with the paper business.

by bren on Mar 14, 2008 10:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

He Fits A Lot Of Needs...

... similar to how Fukudome fit a lot of needs.

If the glove fits...

Jacque Jones is gone and I doubt Ivan DeJesus would mind this!

by initram on Mar 14, 2008 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here, here!

Brian Roberts is a fun player to watch and root for and I'd be saddened if the Cub fan community had a sour taste in their mouth about acquiring him (as the poll suggests) and this spilled over into a cool reaction to Roberts himself.

Everything people like about Ryan Theriot, Roberts has in spades.

Soriano must leadoff... to provide adequate protection for Big Z!

by DGU on Mar 14, 2008 10:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs